Guild Wars 2

People aren’t seeing each profession as a whole. It sure is easy to convince yourself Guardians suck if you cut them into pieces and compare them to the best that other professions have to offer.

No justification to change something will make sense by comparing it to what other professions do. The justification for improving virtues is strong enough on the basis that there are deficiencies WITHIN the profession.

styx.7294:

Relentliss.2170:

Aza.2105:

styx.7294:

I’m pretty sure mine does about 300+/tic running healway.

Generally I feel like regen is more powerful on guardian because of the generous access to protection.

Personally, one of my favourite things to do is run with heal signet warriors and give them battle presence and the protection + regeneration boons.

It probably takes a lot of healing power to get that much per tick. With that large of a sacrifice you don’t do much damage.

The interesting thing about healing signet is it requires no investment in healing power to obtain 400hp per sec. So warrior can go full offensive.

Exactly, we have to constantly sacrifice to reach the same levels of regen that a warrior gets seemingly for free.

We get the regen for free. Warrior has to slot a skill.

There is no denying that guardian has inferior signets for their class defining mechanic.

Even still, guardian has trouble building for dps in pvp. Because even with VoR it doesn’t help with survivability issues. When you look at warrior, they can go full zerker, maintain around 20k hp, close to 2k toughness, high crit rate, crit damage, power, mobility, condition removal, cc without giving up much of anything.

Guardian can’t achieve such stats ever. There has to be stats you give up to achieve them.

Do people not realize that ANet is actually intelligent enough to do the number crunching themselves? That’s what they do for a living, and they actually do it well.

If you were to increase the berserker’s regen from 100ish to even just 150, that would take mine (as a cleric’s gear user) to nearly 300hp/sec without any regen or healing at all. I like doing well, but I admit, that’s really close to being OP. You have to consider all gear types, not just your own.

I see what you mean, but if you ask me personally, playing the most defensive profession and then speccing it to be as offensive as possible… well I guess I just don’t get it.

I think the OP is a warrior at heart.

I run Battle Presence, so if they want to buff VoR’s passive, that would suit me just fine; don’t really think we need it right now, though. I’ve got plenty of peach cookies.

FoopOplo.7914:

Do people not realize that ANet is actually intelligent enough to do the number crunching themselves? That’s what they do for a living, and they actually do it well.

If you were to increase the berserker’s regen from 100ish to even just 150, that would take mine (as a cleric’s gear user) to nearly 300hp/sec without any regen or healing at all. I like doing well, but I admit, that’s really close to being OP. You have to consider all gear types, not just your own.

I see what you mean, but if you ask me personally, playing the most defensive profession and then speccing it to be as offensive as possible… well I guess I just don’t get it.

I think the OP is a warrior at heart.

If I have low health because of my passive healing, my passive healing should be stronger with zero gear or traits than a class that has the highest health. End of story.

Aside from Guardian balance and healing aside, are people really defending warrior’s healing signet?

I have recently made a warrior, she’s 2 months old I think and it’s absolutely ridiculous how easy it is. Bursting like someone suggests doesn’t work because you have stability/endure pain, often shield block or GS run away skills. Warriors don’t have to sacrifice anything for amazing DPS. Unsuspecting foe is a top tier trait what every warrior is running now. Combined with a hammer and you do major DPS.

I have 6 80’s now and my main is my Guardian. And to me main is… 5 sets of exotic armor and a 20 slot bag full of exotic weapons so I am set for almost any spec or occasion.

Now I went and set up my warrior and played him the other day… OMG.. tried the spike dps spec was great… bleed spec OMG…. 400+ heal ticks! yes with my guardian in full heal gear traited to max out my passive heal… I can get close to 300 that is it!

Warriors are the king of all right now and god forbid they up healing on warrior shouts and boom they have great utility thru shouts and banners…. top level burst and sustained thru bleeds (but we all know the problem with bleed stacking right now).

Warriors are the best at everything worst at none. There is no reason our passive heal should be less then a warrior with more hps and better burst!

I really dont want to put the time into getting all the gear over again for my warrior.. ohh and level weaponsmithing to 500 so I Can make the ascended weapons I Can for my Guardian.

I made my Guardian because I usually play a support class in MMO’s. And the lore on the guardian fit what I wanted. But in all honesty the Current Warrior is a better support class in this game then a Guardian is.. but no warrior plays that way because they are also the best DPS class in the game with great survivability to top it off so why would they go pure support?

Ohh just found this on the warrior forums……

ArtemisEntreri.4138
You guys don’t even recommend going light into the healing power just to supplement the warrior’s great sustain?
Example: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNBMhJak0p5N5x4hJOggeohVBXcKoEpHkBbkGA-j0CBYOCiUgAUDgkFQJPZNLSQMRCpyqIasqGYKVER1eDFRrWGA9xA-w
Primarily, the things I was most pleased to see was:
3186 attack w/ sword (+empower)/ 3297 w/ hammer
30% crit (50% fury)
3049 armor
23k health
33~34% crit dmg (wanted more but would be ineffective with my crit chance)
871 healing power (1121 w/ life)
With max healing power:
448/s on HS
176/s on Adrenal Health (528 every 3 seconds at 3 bars)
270/s regen
2089 per shout
That means every three seconds I have rejuvenated 2682 health passively (with 3 bars of adrenaline). Seems a little OP to me.
Guardian – Tamoko Anchev | Warrior – Koveras Anchev | Thief – Baedric Surestrike
Onslaught[Ons] – Black Gate
(edited 4 days ago by ArtemisEntreri.4138)

Yeah sucks to be a warrior….

FoopOplo.7914:

Do people not realize that ANet is actually intelligent enough to do the number crunching themselves? That’s what they do for a living, and they actually do it well.

If you were to increase the berserker’s regen from 100ish to even just 150, that would take mine (as a cleric’s gear user) to nearly 300hp/sec without any regen or healing at all. I like doing well, but I admit, that’s really close to being OP. You have to consider all gear types, not just your own.

I see what you mean, but if you ask me personally, playing the most defensive profession and then speccing it to be as offensive as possible… well I guess I just don’t get it.

I think the OP is a warrior at heart.

Your example actually undermines the point you’re trying to make. As you said, if VoR was buffed you could get it to nearly 300h/s in FULL CLERIC’s gear. Contrast that with Warrior’s 400h/s in FULL ZERKER gear.

No one is saying that Guardians cannot build for excellent health sustain. We’re all aware of what AH and Meditation builds can bring to the table. What we’re saying is that Guardians need to FULLY BUILD into healing to get anywhere near the sustain Warrior’s get with Healing Signet. What we’re saying is that Guardians need to commit up to 60 trait points and an entire set of armor to come close to what Warrior’s get with a single skill.

For example, my Warrior is full Zerker running 30/25/15/0/0 and Healing Signet. The 15 in Defense gives me 150 Healing Power and Adrenal Health. With that amount of Healing Power, Healing Signet heals for approximately 404h/s and Adrenal Health heals for approximately 380h/x3s at full Adrenaline. This means that my Warrior passively regenerates ~530h/s in FULL BERSERKER gear. This means that over 40 seconds (Signet of Resolve CD) my Warrior will have passively healed for ~21,226 health. That is objectively the strongest healing in the game. Compare to my Zerker Guardian where VoR gives ~98h/s and Signet of Resolve ~8,000 h/x40s: that’s ~12,000 health over 40 seconds; that’s approximately 50% as effective as Warrior’s sustain. And we have less health.

For a Guardian to get anywhere near Warrior’s sustain he has to commit most of his traits and armor to Healing. His damage suffers where a Warrior’s does not. As I understood the classes at launch, Guardian was to have superior sustain to counter inferior health pool—that is no longer the case. Warrior now has superior sustain and superior health pool at almost no cost.

Again, no one is saying Guardian cannot build for excellent sustain. What we’re saying is that the investments needed to achieve such sustain are completely imbalanced in favor of Warrior. What we’re saying is that we believe this contrary to the original directions of the professions, given the Guardian’s naturally inferior health pool.

Kilandros.2098:

FoopOplo.7914:

Do people not realize that ANet is actually intelligent enough to do the number crunching themselves? That’s what they do for a living, and they actually do it well.

If you were to increase the berserker’s regen from 100ish to even just 150, that would take mine (as a cleric’s gear user) to nearly 300hp/sec without any regen or healing at all. I like doing well, but I admit, that’s really close to being OP. You have to consider all gear types, not just your own.

I see what you mean, but if you ask me personally, playing the most defensive profession and then speccing it to be as offensive as possible… well I guess I just don’t get it.

I think the OP is a warrior at heart.

Your example actually undermines the point you’re trying to make. As you said, if VoR was buffed you could get it to nearly 300h/s in FULL CLERIC’s gear. Contrast that with Warrior’s 400h/s in FULL ZERKER gear.

No one is saying that Guardians cannot build for excellent health sustain. We’re all aware of what AH and Meditation builds can bring to the table. What we’re saying is that Guardians need to FULLY BUILD into healing to get anywhere near the sustain Warrior’s get with Healing Signet. What we’re saying is that Guardians need to commit up to 60 trait points and an entire set of armor to come close to what Warrior’s get with a single skill.

For example, my Warrior is full Zerker running 30/25/15/0/0 and Healing Signet. The 15 in Defense gives me 150 Healing Power and Adrenal Health. With that amount of Healing Power, Healing Signet heals for approximately 404h/s and Adrenal Health heals for approximately 380h/x3s at full Adrenaline. This means that my Warrior passively regenerates ~530h/s in FULL BERSERKER gear. This means that over 40 seconds (Signet of Resolve CD) my Warrior will have passively healed for ~21,226 health. That is objectively the strongest healing in the game. Compare to my Zerker Guardian where VoR gives ~98h/s and Signet of Resolve ~8,000 h/x40s: that’s ~12,000 health over 40 seconds; that’s approximately 50% as effective as Warrior’s sustain. And we have less health.

For a Guardian to get anywhere near that number he has to commit most of his traits and armor to Healing. His damage suffers where a Warrior’s does not. As I understood the classes at launch, Guardian was to have superior sustain to counter inferior health pool—that is no longer the case. Warrior now has superior sustain and superior health pool at almost no cost.

Again, no one is saying Guardian cannot build for excellent sustain. What we’re saying is that the investments needed to achieve such sustain are completely imbalanced in favor of Warrior. What we’re saying is that we believe this contrary to the original directions of the professions, given the Guardian’s naturally inferior health pool.

Yes Yes Yes. Excellent post describing the issues at hand.

Warrior was never should have sustain.

I warriors see more buffs and guardians are left as is after this next patch…. I will start the looong play time needed to get my Warrior geared as well as my guardian… why play the second rate class when you can play one who can support..heal… spike dps… bleed…. higher hp no matter what…

Why even have a guardian class? We suffer from the hybrid problem all mmo’s have…but with the no trinity I thought certain classes wouldnt be made favorites… but warriors are top of the heap and about to get a buff to shout heals… like they really needed that and we are looking at +20% crit off meditations… and we dont know if the heal will still be with that trait.. take off the heal and now you really make warriors king and guardians bottom of the barrel…

I main a Warior, just to get that out of the way, but believe it or not, it IS possible to play a class and remain unbiased. Now that that’s said….

First: I think it’s silly for different classes to have different base Health. Health pool should be based on VIT, and all classes should have the same base stats.

Second: Unsuspecting foe is a brokenly overpowered trait when combined with the bugged Para Sigil which adds a free +33% stun duration. It remains to be seen how OP it is once para is fixed, but it’ll probably still be too much. I feel it should be nerfed numerically, or moved from Adept to Master.

That being said, again, everyone is comparing every ability in a BUBBLE. Playing a Guardian or Warrior is a PACKAGE DEAL. Virtue is not meant to be compared to Healing Signet.

-Guardians have an easy means to gain Perma-Vigor, and Dodge-Roll-Healing.
-Multiple Weapon skills can heal, add regen, or add protection.
-Multiple Utility skills can heal, add regen, or add protection.
-Multiple Traits can heal, add regen, or add protection.

-Warriors have Healing Signet, but they sacrifice Burst healing for high throughput.
-They can spec for Adrenal Heal down the defense line… BUT then Wars are sacrificing and trading their class mechanic (Burst Skills) for a regen.
-They can spec Shout Healing -or- Banner healing (mutually exclusive) but then they sacrifice all their utility skills for Shouts or Banners, and have to spec heavily into Healing Power.

So all this talk of a Warrior having everything for free? Yeah, no. It’s all give or take.

Warriors have to give up a good deal to get their healing. There is no 30/30/30/30/30 build with 7 utility slots.

Dand.8231:

-They can spec Shout Healing -or- Banner healing (mutually exclusive) but then they sacrifice all their utility skills for Shouts or Banners, and have to spec heavily into Healing Power.

This is the point being made over and over and over in this thread. The sacrifice you’re talking about regarding Warriors is the sacrifice Guardians must make to even be in the same competitive realm with Warrior sustain.

No one’s asking for Warrior to be nerfed. This isn’t a zero-sum game where professions may only succeed where others fail. But people on this forum do play both Warrior and Guardian a lot (like myself) and can say without bias that it’s currently much easier to both sustain and DPS as a Warrior than as a Guardian. Being not particularly biased and having an affinity for both professions, I’d like to see Guardian sustain improved somewhat, particularly since Guardian is handicapped with a low health pool.

Obtena.7952:

I think the approach to that is simply for devs to rethink the Virtue trait line. As a trait ‘buffer’ line, I think it’s pretty crap.

Yup. As far as symbols, virtues, and spirit weapons go…the mechanics of the Guardian is quite lack luster and needs some improvements. Our class has hardly been touched since beta and that was to nerf the kitten out of it, the complaints were quite biased however since everyone was new to the game.

IMO, symbols need to be larger and traits to improve them with condi application.
virtues need to be more dynamic instead of, hit this to get this.
and I don’t know what to do with the spirit weapons. Maybe make them immune to aoe, or you summon a weapon and you can grab it outta the air and get some new attacks or let it float beside you and only have one utility for it. And why do they have a timer on them? Make ’em like pets or something.

Dand.8231:

I main a Warior, just to get that out of the way, but believe it or not, it IS possible to play a class and remain unbiased. Now that that’s said….

First: I think it’s silly for different classes to have different base Health. Health pool should be based on VIT, and all classes should have the same base stats.

Second: Unsuspecting foe is a brokenly overpowered trait when combined with the bugged Para Sigil which adds a free +33% stun duration. It remains to be seen how OP it is once para is fixed, but it’ll probably still be too much. I feel it should be nerfed numerically, or moved from Adept to Master.

That being said, again, everyone is comparing every ability in a BUBBLE. Playing a Guardian or Warrior is a PACKAGE DEAL. Virtue is not meant to be compared to Healing Signet.

-Guardians have an easy means to gain Perma-Vigor, and Dodge-Roll-Healing.
-Multiple Weapon skills can heal, add regen, or add protection.
-Multiple Utility skills can heal, add regen, or add protection.
-Multiple Traits can heal, add regen, or add protection.

-Warriors have Healing Signet, but they sacrifice Burst healing for high throughput.
-They can spec for Adrenal Heal down the defense line… BUT then Wars are sacrificing and trading their class mechanic (Burst Skills) for a regen.
-They can spec Shout Healing -or- Banner healing (mutually exclusive) but then they sacrifice all their utility skills for Shouts or Banners, and have to spec heavily into Healing Power.

So all this talk of a Warrior having everything for free? Yeah, no. It’s all give or take.

Warriors have to give up a good deal to get their healing. There is no 30/30/30/30/30 build with 7 utility slots.

Sacrificing 15 points into a tree that gives toughness and healing power for something that gives you constant regen? Yea, thats a HUGE sacrifice, what were we thinking. And it must suck to have such garbage minor traits in a tree too…lol. Gimme a break.

But you are right about Guards being able to put out protection…in the 1 minute to get everything back off CD we would have 19 seconds of protection.

For both cases well be going 3 healing sources but wont cover the shouts since it makes it longer for nothing. Anyhow you will see my point with the following.

Guardian: 1000 healing power

healing symbols upgraded with writ of persistence and merciful are ( example symbol of protection that will pulse 4 times instead of 3): 107+ 1000x 0.075 (healing power)= 182/sec

Virtue of resolve ( not upgraded in any ways): 84+ (0.06×1000)= 144/sec

Now altruistic healing ( in this case you get 4 times since the symbol will pulse 4 times): 69+ (0.01 × 1000)= 79/sec

So the grand total for all this is: 182+144+79= 405 per seconds for 4 seconds so we could say 1620 hp if you stay in the symbol for the full duration.

Now warrior with also 1000 healing power

healing signet: 392+ (0.05x 1000)= 442/sec ( lol just that beat the guardian total healing value)

Adrenal health every 3 seconds: 360+ (0.15 × 1000)= 510 / 3 seconds or 170/sec

Adding insult to injury here, banners with the regeneration upgrade are: 130+ (0.125 × 1000)= 255/sec

And the grand total is: 442+170+255= 867/second or 3468 if we consider the same time the guardian had in the previous example. First of all this is more than the double a guard will get per second but it is also constant, the guardian must be in the symbol to heal and there is a 2 seconds delay between 2 of them while the warrior is always under this ( unless he use the signet and/or burst skill).

Warrior with 867 over the Guardian’s 405 per second is kinda ridiculous, specially when you think that most of the resources ( gear, jewel and upgrade) are allocated to Healing Power when the warrior can go full zerk and still surpass this with healing signet and adrenal health without healing power.

So the guardian as a healing class is a major fail compared to damage dealing warrior, i dont want them to nerf the warrior but the guardian with these numbers are due for some major buffing in therm of self healing, it is even worse when you consider the base hp poll of both classes, please dont tell me they are balanced…

Something that is worth mentioning is the damage avoidance with warrior mobility. If you’re 1200+ range away, you’re not taking much damage.

Dynnen.6405:

Dand.8231:

I main a Warior, just to get that out of the way, but believe it or not, it IS possible to play a class and remain unbiased. Now that that’s said….

First: I think it’s silly for different classes to have different base Health. Health pool should be based on VIT, and all classes should have the same base stats.

Second: Unsuspecting foe is a brokenly overpowered trait when combined with the bugged Para Sigil which adds a free +33% stun duration. It remains to be seen how OP it is once para is fixed, but it’ll probably still be too much. I feel it should be nerfed numerically, or moved from Adept to Master.

That being said, again, everyone is comparing every ability in a BUBBLE. Playing a Guardian or Warrior is a PACKAGE DEAL. Virtue is not meant to be compared to Healing Signet.

-Guardians have an easy means to gain Perma-Vigor, and Dodge-Roll-Healing.
-Multiple Weapon skills can heal, add regen, or add protection.
-Multiple Utility skills can heal, add regen, or add protection.
-Multiple Traits can heal, add regen, or add protection.

-Warriors have Healing Signet, but they sacrifice Burst healing for high throughput.
-They can spec for Adrenal Heal down the defense line… BUT then Wars are sacrificing and trading their class mechanic (Burst Skills) for a regen.
-They can spec Shout Healing -or- Banner healing (mutually exclusive) but then they sacrifice all their utility skills for Shouts or Banners, and have to spec heavily into Healing Power.

So all this talk of a Warrior having everything for free? Yeah, no. It’s all give or take.

Warriors have to give up a good deal to get their healing. There is no 30/30/30/30/30 build with 7 utility slots.

Sacrificing 15 points into a tree that gives toughness and healing power for something that gives you constant regen? Yea, thats a HUGE sacrifice, what were we thinking. And it must suck to have such garbage minor traits in a tree too…lol. Gimme a break.

But you are right about Guards being able to put out protection…in the 1 minute to get everything back off CD we would have 19 seconds of protection.

I see protection coming up any many arguments of warrior vs guardian. I don’t feel its fair since protection doesn’t have the consistency as 2x much hp. Protection is only up maybe a small fraction of the time, even then it can be stripped via boon steal/corruption. In comparison protection is finite and subject to change, were as having have hp is not.

I’d say if protection was up 100% of the time, bringing it into the equation would be valid. Also, protection isn’t unique to guardian. Many classes have easy access to it and even warrior can have access if he/she is buddied with another class that has it. So that makes warrior even more powerful right?

But when guardian is grouped with a class with a large hp like warrior and necro. They can’t share the benefits of their hp pool.

Daecollo.9578:

Guardians don’t sacrifice as much to get a ton of damage, they don’t sacrifice heavy defense like Warriors have to, to get high DPS. They’re damage is build straight into their tanking tree. 0/0/30/0/0.

Congratulations, you get best troll award.

Svarty.8019:

Daecollo.9578:

Guardians don’t sacrifice as much to get a ton of damage, they don’t sacrifice heavy defense like Warriors have to, to get high DPS. They’re damage is build straight into their tanking tree. 0/0/30/0/0.

Congratulations, you get best troll award.

What’s frightening is that Daecollo is 100% serious. You should see some of his other posts.

Just buff the active. It’s crap.

The passive is perfectly fine – if it is to be buffed, buff the trait instead of the baseline. We could use more reasons to speck into Virtues.

EDIT: Made a mistake calculating Adrenal healing… Will Post here anyway So others don’t look crazy for quoting me. Fixed in a later post.

Caution maths ahead…

Where h is healing power:

Guardian
—————————————-
Virtue of Resolve 84+ .06h
assuming 150 h = 93 heals/s
adding in 25% duration for Absolute Resolution (20 in virtues)
116.25 heals/s

Selfless Daring (dodge heal) (15 in honor)
129+h
time to dodge
10 seconds w/out vigor
5 seconds w/ vigor
with perma vigor and 150 h
279/5 = 55.8 heals/s

Signet of Resolve
8338+1.25h 40s cooldown
8525.5 w/150 hp
213.1375 heals/s
32s cooldown with Signet Mastery trait (10 in radiance)
266.421875 heals/s

438.471875 total heals/second (with 20 in virtues 15 in honor and 10 in radiance and perma vigor/dodging when avail)

Solved for h
1.25*(84+.06h)(129h)/5+(8338+1.25h)/32=105+.075h+25.8+.2h+260.5625+0.0390625h=
391.3625+0.3140625h heals/second

Warrior
—————————————-
Adrenal health (15 in defensive line)
1 bar) 125+.15h
2 bar) 240+.15h
3 bar) 360+.15h
assuming 150 h
with 3 bars 382.5 heals/s
with 1 bar 147.5 heals/s

Healing Signet
392+.05h
assuming 150 h = 399.5 heals/s

399.5+382.5= 782 heals/sec (with 15 in defensive line and a full adrenaline bar)

Calculating how much healing power a guard will need to equal a warriors healing with signet and adrenal health
782=391.3625+0.3140625h
390.6375=0.3140625h
h=1243.8208955223880597014925373134

Summary:
A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 1244 healing power heals for the same amount as a warrior with 15 in defense and the healing signet equipped with full adrenaline.

Someone correct me if i mathed up

Kyle.3856:

Caution maths ahead…

Where h is healing power:

Guardian
—————————————-
Virtue of Resolve 84+ .06h
assuming 150 h = 93 heals/s
adding in 25% duration for Absolute Resolution (20 in virtues)
116.25 heals/s

Selfless Daring (dodge heal) (15 in honor)
129+h
time to dodge
10 seconds w/out vigor
5 seconds w/ vigor
with perma vigor and 150 h
279/5 = 55.8 heals/s

Signet of Resolve
8338+1.25h 40s cooldown
8525.5 w/150 hp
213.1375 heals/s
32s cooldown with Signet Mastery trait (10 in radiance)
266.421875 heals/s

438.471875 total heals/second (with 20 in virtues 15 in honor and 10 in radiance and perma vigor/dodging when avail)

Solved for h
1.25*(84+.06h)(129h)/5+(8338+1.25h)/32=105+.075h+25.8+.2h+260.5625+0.0390625h=
391.3625+0.3140625h heals/second

Warrior
—————————————-
Adrenal health (15 in defensive line)
1 bar) 125+.15h
2 bar) 240+.15h
3 bar) 360+.15h
assuming 150 h
with 3 bars 382.5 heals/s
with 1 bar 147.5 heals/s

Healing Signet
392+.05h
assuming 150 h = 399.5 heals/s

399.5+382.5= 782 heals/sec (with 15 in defensive line and a full adrenaline bar)

---

Calculating how much healing power a guard will need to equal a warriors healing with signet and adrenal health
782=391.3625+0.3140625h
390.6375=0.3140625h
h=1243.8208955223880597014925373134

Summary:
A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 1244 healing power heals for the same amount as a warrior with 15 in defense and the healing signet equipped with full adrenaline.

Someone correct me if i mathed up

Everybody +1 his post. Devs need to see this

Man did math a bit above on the page and nobody giving me credits lol, life is so unfair

Doesn’t anyone else think that this comparison is not relevant or am I in my own little world? WTH does it matter what a warrior does and how does that impact Guardian gameplay? I have never seen a compelling argument for change based on between-profession comparisons. I don’t see it now.

Obtena.7952:

Doesn’t anyone else think that this comparison is not relevant or am I in my own little world? WTH does it matter what a warrior does and how does that impact Guardian gameplay? I have never seen a compelling argument for change based on between-profession comparisons. I don’t see it now.

Pretty sure they are trying to talk about class balance

Kyle.3856:

Caution maths ahead…

Where h is healing power:

Guardian
—————————————-
Virtue of Resolve 84+ .06h
assuming 150 h = 93 heals/s
adding in 25% duration for Absolute Resolution (20 in virtues)
116.25 heals/s

Selfless Daring (dodge heal) (15 in honor)
129+h
time to dodge
10 seconds w/out vigor
5 seconds w/ vigor
with perma vigor and 150 h
279/5 = 55.8 heals/s

Signet of Resolve
8338+1.25h 40s cooldown
8525.5 w/150 hp
213.1375 heals/s
32s cooldown with Signet Mastery trait (10 in radiance)
266.421875 heals/s

438.471875 total heals/second (with 20 in virtues 15 in honor and 10 in radiance and perma vigor/dodging when avail)

Solved for h
1.25*(84+.06h)(129h)/5+(8338+1.25h)/32=105+.075h+25.8+.2h+260.5625+0.0390625h=
391.3625+0.3140625h heals/second

Warrior
—————————————-
Adrenal health (15 in defensive line)
1 bar) 125+.15h
2 bar) 240+.15h
3 bar) 360+.15h
assuming 150 h
with 3 bars 382.5 heals/s
with 1 bar 147.5 heals/s

Healing Signet
392+.05h
assuming 150 h = 399.5 heals/s

399.5+382.5= 782 heals/sec (with 15 in defensive line and a full adrenaline bar)

---

Calculating how much healing power a guard will need to equal a warriors healing with signet and adrenal health
782=391.3625+0.3140625h
390.6375=0.3140625h
h=1243.8208955223880597014925373134

Summary:
A guard with 20 in virtues,15 in honor,10 in radiance,perma vigor,dodging every 5 seconds, and 1244 healing power heals for the same amount as a warrior with 15 in defense and the healing signet equipped with full adrenaline.

Someone correct me if i mathed up

QFT devs why havent you did this math?

Wukunlin.8461:

Obtena.7952:

Doesn’t anyone else think that this comparison is not relevant or am I in my own little world? WTH does it matter what a warrior does and how does that impact Guardian gameplay? I have never seen a compelling argument for change based on between-profession comparisons. I don’t see it now.

Pretty sure they are trying to talk about class balance

Yup class balance… you do it and get it close or at year 2 of your game some of your classes end up not played at all and others are breeding like bunny rabbits..IE all the warriors you run into.

Obtena.7952:

Doesn’t anyone else think that this comparison is not relevant or am I in my own little world? WTH does it matter what a warrior does and how does that impact Guardian gameplay? I have never seen a compelling argument for change based on between-profession comparisons. I don’t see it now.

I think it serves to show that many of our skills are pretty lacklustre and could use improvement by comparing it to the most similar class in the game. A class that is grossly op and will get more buffs this patch.

i have both 80 guard and warrior in my account. but i pretty much main my guard atm.
all this thread content perfectly describe everything i felt past these few weeks.
too much effort for guard to do to get simple thing that war can achieve.
dev are really biassed especially for upcoming patch where they will also buff war role in team play, while only giving a fury to our meditation on trait.
maybe its time to jump into war wagon

Wukunlin.8461:

Pretty sure they are trying to talk about class balance

An objective discussion about class balance would have other comparisons to the other 6 classes. It’s easy to cherry pick.

Obtena.7952:

Wukunlin.8461:

Pretty sure they are trying to talk about class balance

An objective discussion about class balance would have other comparisons to the other 6 classes. It’s easy to cherry pick.

Your argument is a logical fallacy: The fact that we could have also compared other classes does not mean that our argument is void for not having done so.

The only fallacy here is that people have no context for their case to buff VoR based on a comparison to a SINGLE other profession. What I’m illustrating is that people are cherry picking a case that puts your position in the most positive light. Why don’t you compare VoR and Guardian healing to something else? Is the case for buffing VoR as good if you compare to other professions? I don’t think it will be.

Obtena.7952:

The only fallacy here is that people have no context for their case to buff VoR based on a comparison to a SINGLE other profession. What I’m illustrating is that people are cherry picking a case that puts your position in the most positive light. Why don’t you compare VoR and Guardian healing to something else? Is the case for buffing VoR as good if you compare to other professions? I don’t think it will be.

I consider Guardians more akin to Warriors than, say, Thieves, because they are both heavy professions. I think a compelling case can be made to buff VoR from that comparison alone—without muddying the waters with an analysis of every class.

It’s fine that you disagree, but you haven’t presented anything resembling a counter argument. As I said, yours is a logical fallacy and does not negate anything that’s been said. Calling an argument bad is easy, but it doesn’t do too much to convince people that the argument is in fact bad, I’m afraid.

If you have examples as to why why VoR is fine as it is I invite and encourage you to share them. Numerical data has already been presented in this thread, so you don’t have to go far for statistical analysis. If you want to include other professions in this discussion please do. I only ask you do something that resembles making an argument.

All professions are equally capable, so it’s not unreasonable to compare them all if you wish to justify a buff to VoR with profession comparisons. I’m just wondering where your objectivity is by choosing ONLY warrior to compare to.

I already said what I think about VoR if you look earlier in the thread. If players are truly going to attempt to influence development with Anet, then the cherry picked examples aren’t really going to work. I don’t care to argue with players. I care to see something that might make a lightbulb go on in the head of a dev. Cherry picked cases don’t’ do that.

Obtena.7952:

All professions are equally capable, so it’s not unreasonable to compare them all if you wish to justify a buff to VoR with profession comparisons. I’m just wondering where your objectivity is by choosing ONLY warrior to compare to.

I already said what I think about VoR if you look earlier in the thread. If players are truly going to attempt to influence development with Anet, then the cherry picked examples aren’t really going to work. I don’t care to argue with players. I care to see something that might make a lightbulb go on in the head of a dev. Cherry picked cases don’t’ do that.

You still have not made your case. I am not great with the math, plus at the moment I can’t get the numbers in front of me, so I’ll rely on the earlier samples and instead talk in more general terms about balance and build selection.

Guardians are designed around a support/sustain philosophy, although of course they can do other things – that is one of the selling points of the game, after all. Warriors are designed around high-damage output, although again, they can do more. The problem arises when they can take our primary specialty without giving up their own. Warriors are faster, have much better range and condition attacks, have more health, and do more damage. For them to add superior healing to that list is a slap in the face. It makes us superfluous if warriors can self-sustain and still put out more damage.

This is also why comparisons to other classes haven’t been made. If you can show me, say, a necro with better group support (as in, boons, blast heals, etc.), AND can still put out condition damage and boon-stripping, you would have a valid point.

Put a different way, why should a warrior in full berzerker gear heal only himself for more than my guardian in cleric gear who routinely soaks up allies’ conditions via SY?

Naranek.3467:

The problem arises when they can take our primary specialty without giving up their own.

That is a fictitious problem that people have created to justify their calls to buff VoR.

What is the concept of the Virtues? How does VoR fit in with that concept? If the mechanics of VoR don’t fit in with the concept, then there is a justification to change it. That has Sweet F All to do with what a Warrior can achieve when spec-ing themselves out for healing.

Naranek.3467:

Put a different way, why should a warrior in full berzerker gear heal only himself for more than my guardian in cleric gear who routinely soaks up allies’ conditions via SY?

I don’t know. I’m not even assuming that’s a problem. Maybe that completely fits in with whatever roadmap Anet has for the two professions. I do know one thing … even if that is a problem, the conclusion to fix it is NOT a buff to VoR. Such a problem can only be addressed at a higher level … it’s a game balance issue, not a ‘Guardian VOR’ issue.

Obtena.7952:

That is a fictitious problem that people have created to justify their calls to buff VoR.

Why is that it fiction? Again, it’s easy to call our arguments nonsense, but it’s another thing altogether to give a reasoned explanation why you think they are nonsense. Calling it “fictitious” and leaving it at that isn’t a discussion.

Obtena.7952:

I do know one thing … even if that is a problem, the conclusion to fix it is NOT a buff to VoR.

You’ve said very little despite typing out many words. How do you “know” the conclusion is not to buff VoR? Judging from your profile you aren’t a developer, so no one here is going to simply take you at your word because you claim to “know” better. You haven’t provided a scintilla of an argument—not to mention ZERO evidence—that we should find anything you’ve said persuasive. People in this thread have devoted time to developing REAL numbers for the sake of discussion and you think that’s what, “fictitious”? Please do not ruin this thread by telling everybody they’re wrong without trying to explain why.

Again, please do not ruin this thread simply because you cannot articulate your reasons for disagreeing. That’s how threads devolve into personal attacks and become locked. I ask that you seriously evaluate your abilities to contribute further, and then make an informed decision as to whether or not to proceed.

Obtena.7952:

Naranek.3467:

The problem arises when they can take our primary specialty without giving up their own.

That is a fictitious problem that people have created to justify their calls to buff VoR.

What is the concept of the Virtues? How does VoR fit in with that concept? If the mechanics of VoR don’t fit in with the concept, then there is a justification to change it. That has Sweet F All to do with what a Warrior can achieve when spec-ing themselves out for healing.

Naranek.3467:

Put a different way, why should a warrior in full berzerker gear heal only himself for more than my guardian in cleric gear who routinely soaks up allies’ conditions via SY?

I don’t know. I’m not even assuming that’s a problem. Maybe that completely fits in with whatever roadmap Anet has for the two professions. I do know one thing … even if that is a problem, the conclusion to fix it is NOT a buff to VoR. Such a problem can only be addressed at a higher level … it’s a game balance issue, not a ‘Guardian VOR’ issue.

Actually, if you’d look up the thread, you’ll notice that I was a bit skeptical of buffing VoR…And if a warrior in berzerker gear outhealing a healer is “fictitious”, can you supply numbers to that effect, as others have?

Just to go back to my original point and to those that have spotted the obvious, Virtues are inherently signets. To me though, the passives even when fully specced into are just terrible. In my eyes, the passives should make the user a lot more powerful than just providing an insignificant buff. All three(resolve to a lesser degree) don’t even do much for the Guardian. This is even more apparent when you actually spec into the Virtues line thus improving the active while leaving the passives pretty much near useless.

Kilandros.2098:

This is the point being made over and over and over in this thread. The sacrifice you’re talking about regarding Warriors is the sacrifice Guardians must make to even be in the same competitive realm with Warrior sustain.

No one’s asking for Warrior to be nerfed. This isn’t a zero-sum game where professions may only succeed where others fail. But people on this forum do play both Warrior and Guardian a lot (like myself) and can say without bias that it’s currently much easier to both sustain and DPS as a Warrior than as a Guardian. Being not particularly biased and having an affinity for both professions, I’d like to see Guardian sustain improved somewhat, particularly since Guardian is handicapped with a low health pool.

I’m not trying to “defend” the warrior class. The thread is “buff virtue” in the guard forum, not “nerf healing sig!!1!1” in the war forum. I was just trying to offer as objective an opinion as I could. To shed some light on my viewpoint, I’ve run into many bunker guards in WvW and PvP, but very few Bunker Wars. Most fights with bunker Guards end in a stalemate. Most fights with a bunker War end with me stability spiking them.

I’m able to reliably beat a bunker version of my own class with a hybrid build, and still have enough stability to avoid hammer toss during the spike. On the other hand, most Bunker guards wont die, even if I use all my stability to stay on them whey they throw down lines and bubbles to buy time for their cooldowns to return.

Hybrid Guards and Wars tend to result in good battles with my hybrid War, that often come down to who made a mistake, and the damage and sustain levels I see from a Guard opponent or Warrior opponent seem to feel about the same honestly.

Dynnen.6405:

Sacrificing 15 points into a tree that gives toughness and healing power for something that gives you constant regen? Yea, thats a HUGE sacrifice, what were we thinking. And it must suck to have such garbage minor traits in a tree too…lol. Gimme a break.

But you are right about Guards being able to put out protection…in the 1 minute to get everything back off CD we would have 19 seconds of protection.

Well Thick skin is a garbage trait. And yeah, adrenal regen is a solid one., but it means sitting on adrenaline and not using our burst skills and class mechanic. I personally find the “Gain x passive bonus while you have 1/2/3 bars of adrenaline” is sort of lame, and have started multiple threads rallying against this passive play style. But that’s neither here nor there.

And you’re saying you can keep up 19 seconds of protection every 60 seconds? That seems fairly good actually. That works out to an average of about 10% damage reduction throughout the fight, and you can skew that in your favor, by making sure you keep protection up when you think you’re going to get bursted. Combine that with near perma-vigor, dodge roll healing, regen uptime…. well, it adds up to quite a lot of healing.

Kilandros.2098:

How do you “know” the conclusion is not to buff VoR?

If I do a similar comparison with any other profession against warrior I come to the same conclusion. Warrior comes on top for the same reasoning in this thread. That indicates a problem with Warrior and that’s not fixed with VOR buff.

OR …

the whole comparison is nonsensical in the first place because your choosing your ideal nemesis to create the illusion of disparity between classes … you take your pick.

While I believe Virtues as a whole could be more significant, While I believe Virtues as a whole could be more significant, I think the ‘gap’ that has been engineered between Guardian and Warrior is exaggerated in occurrence. The significance of the gap is a function of severity AND occurrence. Fundamentally, the balance between 2 classes is not lead you to a conclusion that one of the two is flawed.

Obtena.7952:

Kilandros.2098:

How do you “know” the conclusion is not to buff VoR?

If I do a similar comparison with any other profession against warrior I come to the same conclusion. Warrior comes on top every time. That indicates a problem with Warrior and that’s not fixed with VOR buff.

OR …

the whole comparison is nonsensical in the first place because your choosing your ideal nemesis to create the illusion of disparity between classes … you take your pick.

While I believe Virtues as a whole could be more significant, I think the ‘gap’ that has been engineered between Guardian and Warrior is exaggerated in occurrence. The significance of the gap is a function of severity AND occurrence.

But I disagree that the problem is Warrior—I like where Warrior is at—so the comparison isn’t nonsensical at all. You might look at Warrior and say, “hey, that’s an aberration. That’s broken and that’s a bad example,” but I look at Warrior and say, “That’s the Gold standard. Warrior’s are happy with their profession. They have serious build options.” Considered in that light, it isn’t nonsensical it all.

Why would I compare, for example, to Rangers when I feel that Ranger is a grievously broken class? Why would I compare, for example, to Elementalists when I feel that Elementalists are having enough trouble of their own finding builds? Again, I chose to compare to Warriors because they are our closest sibling among the professions. Thieves have stealth mechanic and Mesmers have clones—making a comparison there is far more difficult than between Guardians and Warriors.

The truth is I’m targeting Warriors because they are currently the benchmark class. There is no “illusion of disparity” as you say, there is legitimate disparity as indicated by the posters before you who crunched the numbers and determined that Warrior sustain exceeds Guardian sustain even when Guardians are built to maximize health gain and Warriors are built to maximize DPS. That is no illusion, and numbers don’t lie.

Aza.2105:

I see protection coming up any many arguments of warrior vs guardian. I don’t feel its fair since protection doesn’t have the consistency as 2x much hp. Protection is only up maybe a small fraction of the time, even then it can be stripped via boon steal/corruption. In comparison protection is finite and subject to change, were as having have hp is not.

I’d say if protection was up 100% of the time, bringing it into the equation would be valid. Also, protection isn’t unique to guardian. Many classes have easy access to it and even warrior can have access if he/she is buddied with another class that has it. So that makes warrior even more powerful right?

But when guardian is grouped with a class with a large hp like warrior and necro. They can’t share the benefits of their hp pool.

Protection cannot always be directly compared to Health pool. The reason is because Protection increases sustain and effectiveness vs burst damage, while Health does not increase sustain, it only provides time to react vs burst damage.

This was one of the main issues Warrior had, pre-healing-buff: Big health pool, lousy sustain. Many warriors actually were rallying for access to protection, or some sort of secondary heal mechanic linked to our class, similar to guards virtue of resolve, not a direct buff to #6.

Also, people love to call upon the fact that Warriors run full zerker with like 800 HP/S sustain… which is as hilarious as it is untrue.

Firstly, no sane warrior zerker build should run Healing Signet. Healing Surge is far far better. You’re complete glass, which means you’ll go down in about 10 seconds, and thus get less than 4k healing from your healing signet. Healing surge on the other hand, can provide a 9-10k heal on demand, while mending is easy condi cleanse.

Second, no zerker build has adrenal health; it’s in the defense tree. If you’re in the defense tree, you’re some sort of bruiser build.

You should be happy when you see a zerker war with healing signet equipped, it means the battle would have to last 30 seconds or more before his signet has better HP/S than Healing Surge. Most zerkers either kill you outright or die outright.

What you feel is a benchmark isn’t very realistic. The benchmark is not the one you choose because you like it. Any disparity between some elements of two profs may be intended and is typically balanced by the sum of all their elements; something that’s more complex that a few numbers on a spreadsheet. These things are dependent on the concept of the class, determined by developers. That’s why profession comparisons through their individual parts aren’t compelling.

Arken.3725:

Virtues are inherently signets. To me though, the passives even when fully specced into are just terrible. In my eyes, the passives should make the user a lot more powerful than just providing an insignificant buff. This is even more apparent when you actually spec into the Virtues line thus improving the active while leaving the passives pretty much near useless.

This has some merit and could be something to look at rather than just flat buffing VoR. Let’s look at the traits involved in it:

The 20 Virtures trait, Absolution Resolution, to buff VoR’s passive is extremely lackluster. Yes, the other the other, secondary benefit of removing conditions (which even that isn’t that great in today’s spammable condi-meta) is nice, but that increase to the healing VoR passive is rather laughable.

VoR with a Healing Power of 1000 pts = 144, add AR and you got a whopping 180 hp/s.

Considering the sacrifice of getting 1000 Healing Power and putting 20 in Virtues, that’s horrible as a trait benefit!

Let’s take out the HP, and leave it base. With VoR and AR, you get 105 hp/s. Again, there’s something wrong here when you have to put 20 points into Virtues to get only 21 more hp/s.

Grabbed this from the Warrior forums:

Suddenflame.2601:

Warrior Possible Healing Regen Build
Assuming full Adrenal Health

Healing Power: 0
Healing Signet = 392hp/sec
Regeneration = 130hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360hp/sec
Generated Number = 882hp/sec

Healing Power: 170
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 170) = 401hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 170) = 151hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 170) = 386hp/sec
Generated Number = 938hp/sec

difference = 56hp/sec
increase = 0.0597 = 5.97%

Healing Power: 600
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 600) = 420hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 600) = 205hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 600) = 450hp/sec
Generated Number = 1075hp/sec

difference = 193hp/sec
increase = 0.1795 = 17.95%

Healing Power: 1200
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 1200) = 452hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 1200) = 280hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 1200) = 540hp/sec
Generated Number = 1272hp/sec

difference = 390hp/sec
increase = 0.3066 = 30.66%

The big take aways:

1) With ~150 Healing Power (15 into Defense), Warrior can achieve over 900h/s. That’s 900h/s for 15 traits and 1 skill.

Kilandros.2098:

Grabbed this from the Warrior forums:

Suddenflame.2601:

snip

The big take aways:

1) With ~150 Healing Power (15 into Defense), Warrior can achieve over 900h/s. That’s 900h/s for 15 traits and 1 skill.

Looks like they are assuming constant regen as well… my numbers were only from two sources: Adrenal Health and Healing Signet with the minimum Healing power they have from 15 in defense (150 HP).

Daecollo.9578:

jportell.2197:

Daecollo.9578:

Kilandros.2098:

Don’t get me wrong, Guardian has access to a lot of heals—if you build and trait for them, that is. But when I go from playing my Warrior with Healing Signet to playing my Guardian I’m still amazed at how superior Warrior regeneration is with so little effort. For example, Healing Signet + Adrenal Health (minor trait) grants a warrior approximately 500 health per second in full Berserker gear and full Berserker trait. Pair that with Warrior’s health pool and I rarely ever pay any attention to my Warrior’s health in PvE gameplay. That’s pretty insane.

Currently Virtue of Resolve heals for ~100 with a full Berserker build. Now I’m not suggesting it be anywhere near Healing Signet, but surely increasing it to 150-200 wouldn’t be game breaking considering Guardian was given the lowest HP pool in exchange for “more healing”

So ya want it to be 250, then be able to 1250 hp/s (to 5 group.)

On a non-#6?

Sure, as long as you buff every single passive heal in the game to compensate.

Virtue of resolve coupled with AH coupled with Writ of the merciful and selfless daring… Guard HPS is fine. Warrior HPS is ridiculous because they aren’t sacrificing much to get a ton of healing… guardians sacrifice all damage to get their amazing heals.

Guardians don’t sacrifice as much to get a ton of damage, they don’t sacrifice heavy defense like Warriors have to, to get high DPS. They’re damage is build straight into their tanking tree. 0/0/30/0/0.

Guardians with a ton of damage. This made me lol. Thanks for that.

Kilandros.2098:

Grabbed this from the Warrior forums:

Suddenflame.2601:

Warrior Possible Healing Regen Build
Assuming full Adrenal Health

Healing Power: 0
Healing Signet = 392hp/sec
Regeneration = 130hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360hp/sec
Generated Number = 882hp/sec

Healing Power: 170
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 170) = 401hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 170) = 151hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 170) = 386hp/sec
Generated Number = 938hp/sec

difference = 56hp/sec
increase = 0.0597 = 5.97%

Healing Power: 600
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 600) = 420hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 600) = 205hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 600) = 450hp/sec
Generated Number = 1075hp/sec

difference = 193hp/sec
increase = 0.1795 = 17.95%

Healing Power: 1200
Healing Signet = 392 + (0.05 * 1200) = 452hp/sec
Regeneration = 130 + (0.125 * 1200) = 280hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 360 + (0.15 * 1200) = 540hp/sec
Generated Number = 1272hp/sec

difference = 390hp/sec
increase = 0.3066 = 30.66%

The big take aways:

1) With ~150 Healing Power (15 into Defense), Warrior can achieve over 900h/s. That’s 900h/s for 15 traits and 1 skill.

Fixed a number issue with adrenal heal I shall post the new numbers here.