Guild Wars 2

VofC (aegis) is on a longer cd than any of the Pain skills… just sayin.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

The only reason I can imagine warriors having such a high passive heal for healing signet is that they lack damage mitigation abilities. All they have access to is: Endure Pain lasts 5 secs on a 60sec cd, Defy Pain lasts 4 secs on a 60sec cd, Block lasts 3 secs on a 30sec cd, and Berserker Stance lasts 8 secs on a 60 sec cd but only affects new applications of conditions. Block has to be channeled and you can still be pulled or knocked down/back with it up which does not allow you to continue to attack. Endure Pain is short on a high cooldown but absorbs ALL physical damage but you can still be CC’d. Effectively, there is a longer period of time that the warrior can not take any physical damage but is it effective? Maybe.

They lack Aegis, options to blind, protection, and multiple sources of regen and on demand healing that the guardian brings. For warriors, damage mitigation only comes from having a high passive heal on their healing signet. The issue is, they can still go full on offensive and still have that decent passive regen. With the recent buff to Vigorous Shouts their base shout heals for 2k+ now. Full Cleric gear grants them over 3k per shout on a 20-30 second cool down. They could literally be carrying an extra Healing Surge in their pocket if they needed to which is AoE btw.

Aegis, blinds, and protection are great. However they do nothing for conditions. Also, regen helps but not enough… plus warrs can get regen too.

Also, kinda unfair that our elite skill Renewed Focus only gives us 2 seconds of invuln as compared to the warrior utility skill with 4 seconds, a stun break, and 30 second quicker activation time. Yeah, we get an extra block and get our passive heal back but it still doesn’t add up.

Artemis… That’s all fine and dandy, but lets not forget abut the AoE stuns, complete single target lockdowns, crazy access to Snares/Cripples/Imobilizes… and above all, MASSIVE mobility….

THAT is their Dmg Mitigation… and it’s very effective.

Relentliss.2170:

VofC (aegis) is on a longer cd than any of the Pain skills… just sayin.

Apparently Aegis is more powerful than being completely immune to physical damage for 5 seconds twice (traited) with a 60 sec cd.

Kyle.3856:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

-snip-

Aegis, blinds, and protection are great. However they do nothing for conditions. Also, regen helps but not enough… plus warrs can get regen too.

Also, kinda unfair that our elite skill Renewed Focus only gives us 2 seconds of invuln as compared to the warrior utility skill with 4 seconds, a stun break, and 30 second quicker activation time. Yeah, we get an extra block and get our passive heal back but it still doesn’t add up.

Guardians do have access to a lot more condition cleansing abilities, primarily due to the low base health they have. Is it enough when conditions are reapplied faster then they can be removed? Probably not. I think now warriors have similar options to condition removal that guardians do which is rather odd. I can think of quite a few off the top of my head…

Shake it off, Shrug it off, doly sig, cleansing ire, traited warhorn and that one heal trait that removes movement impairing effects, mobile strikes… just to name a few. These are mostly reactive though and not passive.

Renewed Focus is like Berserker’s Stance + Endure Pain for 2 seconds. Nothing gets through except current conditions.

I won’t argue that VoC is pathetic. Aegis itself is rather lackluster and should either grant 2 blocks in a row or grant protection for x amount of seconds after breaking or regen. The cooldown should probably be dropped to 60 seconds also with an activation period of 20 seconds on the passive.

Amins.3710:

Artemis… That’s all fine and dandy, but lets not forget abut the AoE stuns, complete single target lockdowns, crazy access to Snares/Cripples/Imobilizes… and above all, MASSIVE mobility….

THAT is their Dmg Mitigation… and it’s very effective.

So running away from a fight is good damage mitigation? Can’t argue that logic but I fail to see how this doesn’t help the target as well.

In a perfect scenario, the warrior can either skullcrack or earthshake every 7 seconds with the appropriate spec. That I guess is a form of mitigation as long as your target doesn’t have stability, then it’s nullified.

Not sure by what you mean single target lockdowns unless you refer to the daze/stun on mace, knockdowns on OH mace, Hammer knockdown/back, knockback on rifle, immobilize on LB, shield bash, or sword’s burst. Did I miss any?

I still don’t understand why Anet hasn’t given guardian more access to chilled or torment. It seems fitting for the class and Glacial Heart is rather a joke on the ICD. 5 seconds of chill every 30 seconds? Maybe more like 20 would be suitable. Chill is much more effective than cripple or even immobilize at that point due to the 66% movement redux and the longer cd effect.

Warriors, like guardians can have great mobility if you run the correct weapon combo. I won’t argue warrior are slightly superior in this aspect, heck probably even better than thieves at this point if they run GS + sw/wh. Hard to catch a warrior traited to break immobilize with movement skills. 8 sec savage leap(600), 15 sec WW(450), 20 sec Rush(1200), and swiftness from WH. Mobility helps us stay on target or run away and is hardly used to stay on target but also mitigate damage unless of course you’re using rifle or longbow.

Heck, I only use GS to mainly run away or catch up to people. The damage and burst is weak in comparison to other weapons. WW may be the only thing worth a darn on there to use if you don’t have someone holding down your target for 100derps.

Aza.2105:

Relentliss.2170:

VofC (aegis) is on a longer cd than any of the Pain skills... just sayin.

Apparently Aegis is more powerful than being completely immune to physical damage for 5 seconds twice (traited) with a 60 sec cd.

Aegis is too situational. It can either save you from a killing blow at that right time or break off something like an auto attack allowing a large blow to come through. Another idea would be to have Aegis have a damage absorption for physical attacks only. To break Aegis you have to do X amount of damage before it breaks. I’d be ok with Aegis being a absorption shield than a bladeturn effect (Note the DAoC lingo).

I.e. Absorb up to 3,000 damage before your Aegis shatters.

Of course it won’t stop you from receiving the CC effects of other attacks. You’d still be knocked down for instance but it wouldn’t do damage unless the attack was stronger than 3,000.

Sorry for the triple post. I’m all for adjusting the guardian and bringing the warrior down slightly to more reasonable level.

Could add to the support nature by causing virtues to create combo fields. IE, using Justice causes a fire field at your location for 3 seconds, using Resolve creates a water fields and using Courage creates a light field.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Aza.2105:

Relentliss.2170:

VofC (aegis) is on a longer cd than any of the Pain skills… just sayin.

Apparently Aegis is more powerful than being completely immune to physical damage for 5 seconds twice (traited) with a 60 sec cd.

Aegis is too situational. It can either save you from a killing blow at that right time or break off something like an auto attack allowing a large blow to come through. Another idea would be to have Aegis have a damage absorption for physical attacks only. To break Aegis you have to do X amount of damage before it breaks. I’d be ok with Aegis being a absorption shield than a bladeturn effect (Note the DAoC lingo).

I.e. Absorb up to 3,000 damage before your Aegis shatters.

Of course it won’t stop you from receiving the CC effects of other attacks. You’d still be knocked down for instance but it wouldn’t do damage unless the attack was stronger than 3,000.

Sorry for the triple post. I’m all for adjusting the guardian and bringing the warrior down slightly to more reasonable level.

I really like your aegis idea… You should post it in the guardian development thread.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Kyle.3856:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

-snip-

Aegis, blinds, and protection are great. However they do nothing for conditions. Also, regen helps but not enough… plus warrs can get regen too.

Also, kinda unfair that our elite skill Renewed Focus only gives us 2 seconds of invuln as compared to the warrior utility skill with 4 seconds, a stun break, and 30 second quicker activation time. Yeah, we get an extra block and get our passive heal back but it still doesn’t add up.

Guardians do have access to a lot more condition cleansing abilities, primarily due to the low base health they have. Is it enough when conditions are reapplied faster then they can be removed? Probably not. I think now warriors have similar options to condition removal that guardians do which is rather odd. I can think of quite a few off the top of my head…

Shake it off, Shrug it off, doly sig, cleansing ire, traited warhorn and that one heal trait that removes movement impairing effects, mobile strikes… just to name a few. These are mostly reactive though and not passive.

Renewed Focus is like Berserker’s Stance + Endure Pain for 2 seconds. Nothing gets through except current conditions.

I won’t argue that VoC is pathetic. Aegis itself is rather lackluster and should either grant 2 blocks in a row or grant protection for x amount of seconds after breaking or regen. The cooldown should probably be dropped to 60 seconds also with an activation period of 20 seconds on the passive.

Renewed Focus is worse than both Zerker stance and endure pain. I say this because you can’t attack while using it, some will argue that its powerful because it renews virtues. I’d agree with this if virtues were good, but they aren’t.

Renewed focus blocks conditions, however if you already have conditions on you, it won’t stop them from ticking damage.

Like your idea for aegis, its good.

tl;dr: as they are signets anyway, just merge signet skills with virtues

I agree with a lot of what has been said here, and especially the comparisons between Guard healing and Warr healing. However, the argument that VoC needs to be buffed or adjusted on these terms (and indeed many have argued that they are skeptical of doing so) ignores what I think is a fundamental problem with the class, which this discussion has skirted: its primary “novelty” mechanic is completely lacking.

In this the comparison to the Warrior, while not invalid, is doing so on unequal terms. The naked, untraited warrior does not have passive healing from traits or skills. The Guardian does. That certain traits or skills are overwhelmingly superior to other choices from its pool says more about a failure within its own class mechanics than its comparison to a completely different class.

Look at every class’s novelty mechanic. Necros have death shroud. Engies have the toolbelt and kits. Eles have access to 4 full sets of weapon skills. Mesmers have shatters. Thieves have initiative, stealing, and stealth skills (back stab).

The warrior is the exception. While it has the adrenaline mechanic, it can, and in many cases should be, completely ignored for the incidental benefits it can give to healing and damage, except where it has special utility (mace’s stun, bow’s fire field). I think this is commensurate with the warrior’s M.O., however, which is to spend more time moving, dodging, and bashing #1 than micromanaging the cooldowns of secondary mechanics. The powerful passive heal plays into this theme as it removes yet another consideration from the player’s play style, so while “OP” to some degree, I don’t necessarily disagree with it.

I deliberately left out the Ranger, with its pet, and the Guardian, with its Virtues. I believe both are used as justification for each class’s deliberate shortcomings, but are themselves lacking and do not justify themselves. Ranger is a whole other discussion, however.

Some posters have mentioned that virtues are basically signets. Why not just own this acknowledgement by transferring the Guardian’s signet skills to its virtues?

Signet of Judgement is a 10% flat damage reduction. That is rather powerful (constant 1/3 of a boon, which it also stacks with). Its active reduces damage by 25% for a short while and grants retaliation, and it breaks stun. Imagine if it was a virtue that came part and parcel with the class itself.

But back to VoR. Virtue of Resolve’s active has already been belabored here, so why not merge it with Signet of Mercy? Its active, rather than a burst heal which could never outperform the passive over time, could revive a nearby ally (something relegated to a skill choice for most other classes).

These sorts of things seem to fall more in line with what the Guardian’s theme is, according to the Profession page on the GW2 website:

“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

Do you ditch your own passive regen in order to save your ally from death to help your team overall? That seems more like the sort of mechanic decision a Guardian would make. This would also make Renewed focus doubly powerful in near-wipe or poo-hits-the-fan situations.

Soa Cirri.6012:

I agree with a lot of what has been said here, and especially the comparisons between Guard healing and Warr healing. However, the argument that VoC needs to be buffed or adjusted on these terms (and indeed many have argued that they are skeptical of doing so) ignores what I think is a fundamental problem with the class, which this discussion has skirted: its primary “novelty” mechanic is completely lacking.

It hasn’t been skirted, it’s just that people believe they are making a more convincing argument with Warrior comparisons and threads containing numbers with huge volumes of insignificant digits.

I happen to believe what you are mentioning here … on it’s own Virtues are not a compelling Profession mechanic. Though I agree with that argument, I think that merging or synergies with Signets is too limiting for a mechanic that should be effective out of the box and independent of other skills. Signets could be improved with more effects or even better served with strength enhancements based on other stats. Whatever it is, it shouldn’t have anything to do with what OP’ed Warrior class can do. Comparing yourself to something OPed in one professions to justify improvements to another profession is just ridiculous.

Obtena.7952:

It hasn’t been skirted, it’s just that people believe they are making a more convincing argument with Warrior comparisons and threads containing numbers with huge volumes of insignificant digits.

If this is a burn on me and my “insignificant digits”, the only reason I decided to do the math is that I kept seeing biased blanketed statements being thrown back and forth with no value/proof being inserted. If you don’t like the fact that i didnt round, go do the math yourself

Furthermore, I don’t think this is an insignificant comparison as the warrior seems to be balanced in and of itself right now in the fact that they can pretty much choose any role and accomplish it to some extent. The other classes, not just guardian, should be brought up to match it. But if we keep going around saying, “Guard is fine” then we WILL end up being the weakest class as the other ones are brought up to be on par with warriors. If we don’t bring up our short comings then the class will remain stagnant as the devs would believe that guardians are content as they are.

The warrior is balanced? That’s an interesting assessment right their. They are beyond balanced because they can choose MANY rules simultaneously and be accomplished. I don’t believe that is the intent of the non-holy trinity concept that Anet envisioned for this game. That’s why I think everyone using warrior as the baseline for balance is being delusional. That’s just a weak argument for Guardian improvements.

Obtena.7952:

The warrior is balanced? That’s an interesting assessment right their. They are beyond balanced because they can choose MANY rules simultaneously and be accomplished. I don’t believe that is the intent of the non-holy trinity concept that Anet envisioned for this game. That’s why I think everyone using warrior as the baseline for balance is being delusional. That’s just a weak argument for Guardian improvements.

I saw in a previous post that you said that the virtues line should be buffed… correct? Why? You said there was a deficiency in the class itself…

What if people were only able to play as guardians? Would there still be deficiency? No because everyone is on even ground. This is the reason for comparison to other classes.

Comparisons are comparisons. That is all. Warrior is the easiest class to compare to as they are the most similar to us. If you think we need to be compared to all the classes as a whole, start a thread and start crunching numbers. If you would like to bring something to the table besides “Why compare to wars?”, Why don’t you try to do something constructive like calculating the number of conditions the other classes can push out per second and then calculate the damage. Then you could even find out the time to live each class would have under each condi spam. Honestly, I think that would be a very valuable asset to have.

The lack of a trinity is all the more reason why we need to be able to perform multiple roles.

Honestly, from what I’ve seen, I do not think that the warriors are going to get nerfed… If they do, does that solve our issues? No… If you look back to what I posted before, I think conditions are our main problem. Condition spam is the reason that I believe Warrs got the signet buff. Guards should get some relief as well. That’s all I’m saying.

As it is we are pointing out a problem, it’s up to Anet to decide what to do with it. I am just providing input.

^ Agreed. Condition spam is a problem in general of the game itself. Stacking 1 stat to be effective is a little lopsided.

Kyle.3856:

What if people were only able to play as guardians? Would there still be deficiency? No because everyone is on even ground.

Well, that’s the problem with that comparative approach. It’s still a deficiency because I believe that virtues as a profession mechanic are underwhelming and need to be buffed. That argument isn’t dependent on anything but the profession itself.

I firmly believe if you want to be convincing, you need to provide the best argument possible; the argument based on the least questionable assumptions. My high level problem with this comparative approach is that there is more than one conclusion that can be reached. It’s not so black and white like you think and a bunch of those conclusions result in Guardians still not any better off. While you might get a dev to acknowledge the disparity between War and Guardian healing and even that a solution is needed, it might not be the one we want.

I think the argument that Virtues are underwhelming as THE defining profession mechanic leaves no ambiguity. The only solution to that is to enhance or buff their effect.

I will preface this by saying I find the Virtues useful. I use the block, blind, heal all the time. But they are a weak and rather stifling class mechanic.

However for such small benefit the CD of VoC and VoR are very long. Justice is much loved and one of the primary reasons is its short CD.

The simplest improvement would be to make the base numbers of VoR triated with AR the stock value. AR could improve the skill in some other way… maybe its current remove 3 conditions and apply a passive -25% condition duration. And shorten the CD of VoC to 30 sec. These two improvements would make the virtues in their current state more useful.

Long term they need to be overhauled. I would love to see them be like Chosen Auras. Others need to be within 500 to recieve the Aura.When I run Justice it burns and gives me a damage boost, when I run Resolve stronger passive healing and condition protection, when I run Courage damage protection and tenacity. But you could only run one at a time. There could be interesting effects for overlapping, timing their switching, them like Aegis or Blinding foes or a Medium sized heal. This would make changing them and using them far more fun.

Obtena.7952:

Kyle.3856:

What if people were only able to play as guardians? Would there still be deficiency? No because everyone is on even ground. This is the reason for comparison to other classes.

Actually no because my argument is that virtues as a profession mechanic are underwhelming and need to be buffed. That argument isn’t dependent on anything but the profession itself.

I firmly believe if you want to be convincing, you need to provide the best argument possible; the argument based on the least questionable assumptions. My high level problem with this comparative approach is that there is more than one conclusion that can be reached. It’s not so black and white like you think and a bunch of those conclusions result in Guardians still not any better off. While you might get a dev to acknowledge the disparity between War and Guardian healing and even that a solution is needed, it might not be the one we want.

I think the argument that Virtues are underwhelming as THE defining profession mechanic leaves no ambiguity. The only solution to that is to enhance or buff their effect.

So, a comparison to another class is not convincing but your opinion that they are underwhelming is? I just don’t understand your logic at all…

Put it this way … I don’t play any other class at level 80 for a wide range of content except Guardian, yet I still know that virtues are underwhelming. I don’t need to play another class in all elements of the game to understand this. No one should.

When many of my skills or weapon effects are as good or better than my defining class mechanic, I feel that’s something that should be looked at.

Obtena.7952:

Put it this way … I don’t play any other class at level 80 except Guardian, yet I still know that virtues are underwhelming. I don’t need to play another class to understand this. No one should.

But, why buff them then? Just because in your opinion they aren’t good enough? That’s not a compelling argument to me.

So you don’t feel that your defining class mechanic should be THE strongest abilities of the class? I do.

Obtena.7952:

So you don’t feel that your defining class mechanic should be THE strongest abilities of the class? I do.

While you do make a good point there, it doesn’t make the class comparison any less valid or compelling to me. Perhaps you should realize that some people need something more compelling than “It just feels wrong”… That just isn’t a compelling enough argument for me…

Furthermore, how do you plan to show that virtues aren’t the strongest abilities of the class? Is everyone just supposed to take your feeling as gospel?

Btw, I’m not trying to be rude when I say the above… I read it a couple of times and I think it could be misconstrued. Just trying to convey that what compels some people doesn’t compel all. I think the more variations of reasons the better. The ultimate goal is to get the guards that think “guards are fine” to wake up and realize… are we okay with “fine”?

1. For the health of the game, wars need a regen nerf. My main is war. Its insane how much sustain that class has. This convo has gone on long enough and JP finally opened his mind to a change. No word on what it is, but at least he’s using his head now.

2. I don’t even play guard and I could tell you just by watching tPvP play and making general game knowledge comparisons, guard is 100% support right now. You don’t have any reason to think you can do much on your own. Maybe against a thief who is willing to die…

3. Comparisons are made to classes, races, mobs, and overall feel of the game. Yes there is a class comparison going on between the war and guard, but there should also be comparisons to all other classes. Its what is known as ‘balance’.

4. Condi-heavy meta still hasn’t been addressed. This is what provoked the rabid name-calling against Anet employees by name and ultimately led to hiding behind a new rule: “Sticks and stones will break my bones, but name-calling is an automatic ban.”

/derail
On the OP’s topic:
Resolve needs to at least be re-buffed to its pre-nerf beta base regen; which I believe was 142hp/sec.

Because both classes are heavy armored front line melers using similar weapons, its easier to compare a Guardian to a Warrior than a Guardian to any other class. Add in the fact most of us have tried playing both, its the fairest comparison. I am not sure how to compare Guardian to Ele becuase I have no idea how an Ele ‘feels’ to play.

Redscope.6215:

3. Comparisons are made to classes, races, mobs, and overall feel of the game. Yes there is a class comparison going on between the war and guard, but there should also be comparisons to all other classes. Its what is known as ‘balance’.

This.

You can compare the self-healing capacity of the Warrior and the Guardian all day and the numbers make it clear: if you want to build around passive regen, warrior is the way to go. However there is no rule that says the Guardian must have comparable passive regen. That’s purely an assumption.

VoR is a virtue. Virtues are exclusive to the Guardian. The mechanics of the virtues should be compared to the unique mechanics of other classes if anything at all. That is where we really see how much the Guardian lacks. This time let’s compare an ungeared, untraited VoR to a single skill on the Engineer’s toolbelt. In this case, the Engineer has a very wide array of possible skills to choose from, some which provide healing, but each which can be used to synergize with traits, weapons, and utility skills to combine stun breakers, blast finishers, and pure damage, as well as healing and condition removal.

The Guardian is stuck with VoR. It can be enhanced with traits, but not that much. It can be augmented with healing power, but it doesn’t scale with it all that well. This is 1/3 of the unique mechanic that defines the Guardian, and what does it provide? Some paltry passive regen, and a weak active heal on a punishing cooldown.

The other virtues are pretty meh as well, really, and fare even worse in group combat. They’re also unique in providing a class mechanic which, when enhanced by traits, can be completely nullified by generic enemies (burning and blind immunity for destroyers and dredge respectively, the latter of which all Guardians who do fracs should already well know).

The class mechanic is supposed to give a leg up in one specialized area, or an advantage other classes don’t get. No other class gets to chain together skills without cooldowns using “initiative” like the Thief. No other class gets a smorgasbord of extra skills to choose from and switch out on the fly like the Engineer. The two extra weapon skill sets the Elementalist gets aren’t dumbed down to punish the Ele for having them. Yet the virtues are dumbed down, highly circumstantial signets that you can’t change.

That’s what the fundamental problem seems to be, to me.

Relentliss.2170:

Because both classes are heavy armored front line melers using similar weapons, its easier to compare a Guardian to a Warrior than a Guardian to any other class. Add in the fact most of us have tried playing both, its the fairest comparison. I am not sure how to compare Guardian to Ele becuase I have no idea how an Ele ‘feels’ to play.

To that I would say you’re comparing classes in the subjective sense. In other words, you make comparisons based upon your own personal experience. That’s important to some extent too, but I’m referring to objective comparisons.

As you have asked, how would you compare the guard vs. ele? (This will be a little long-winded so bear with me). For starters, ele has 4 different sets of weapon skills while the guard has 2 different sets of weapons, each with 1 skill set. The ele can freely swap between all 4 in combat but each individual set has its own 15s cooldown, the guard can only swap back and forth and only every 10s. The ele’s weapon skill sets are all based off of 1 weapon choice within 4 major areas of gameplay: damage, movement, cc, healing. The guard chooses two specific weapon sets from a host of weapons; of which purpose is not so ‘black and white’. This objective comparison would show anyone with a brain that the ele has way more versatility with weapon skills than the guard. This goes for almost every class too, with exception of an engi with kits.

The point of a comparison like that would be to come to a definitive conclusion on the differences in combat effectiveness of each class.

It also answers a specific question: Should the Elementalist get two weapon sets? Answer: Absolutely not. That’s the exact situation the engi is in as well with kits and tool belt skills.

Soa Cirri.6012:

Redscope.6215:

3. Comparisons are made to classes, races, mobs, and overall feel of the game. Yes there is a class comparison going on between the war and guard, but there should also be comparisons to all other classes. Its what is known as ‘balance’.

This.

You can compare the self-healing capacity of the Warrior and the Guardian all day and the numbers make it clear: if you want to build around passive regen, warrior is the way to go. However there is no rule that says the Guardian must have comparable passive regen. That’s purely an assumption.

VoR is a virtue. Virtues are exclusive to the Guardian. The mechanics of the virtues should be compared to the unique mechanics of other classes if anything at all. That is where we really see how much the Guardian lacks. This time let’s compare an ungeared, untraited VoR to a single skill on the Engineer’s toolbelt. In this case, the Engineer has a very wide array of possible skills to choose from, some which provide healing, but each which can be used to synergize with traits, weapons, and utility skills to combine stun breakers, blast finishers, and pure damage, as well as healing and condition removal.

The Guardian is stuck with VoR. It can be enhanced with traits, but not that much. It can be augmented with healing power, but it doesn’t scale with it all that well. This is 1/3 of the unique mechanic that defines the Guardian, and what does it provide? Some paltry passive regen, and a weak active heal on a punishing cooldown.

The other virtues are pretty meh as well, really, and fare even worse in group combat. They’re also unique in providing a class mechanic which, when enhanced by traits, can be completely nullified by generic enemies (burning and blind immunity for destroyers and dredge respectively, the latter of which all Guardians who do fracs should already well know).

The class mechanic is supposed to give a leg up in one specialized area, or an advantage other classes don’t get. No other class gets to chain together skills without cooldowns using “initiative” like the Thief. No other class gets a smorgasbord of extra skills to choose from and switch out on the fly like the Engineer. The two extra weapon skill sets the Elementalist gets aren’t dumbed down to punish the Ele for having them. Yet the virtues are dumbed down, highly circumstantial signets that you can’t change.

That’s what the fundamental problem seems to be, to me.

Very good point. I also think virtues needs to be reworked somehow. Its very straightforward and doesn’t exactly make the class. I’d say our wardings are the things that give our class uniqueness, not the virtues.

Redscope.6215:

Relentliss.2170:

Because both classes are heavy armored front line melers using similar weapons, its easier to compare a Guardian to a Warrior than a Guardian to any other class. Add in the fact most of us have tried playing both, its the fairest comparison. I am not sure how to compare Guardian to Ele becuase I have no idea how an Ele ‘feels’ to play.

To that I would say you’re comparing classes in the subjective sense. In other words, you make comparisons based upon your own personal experience. That’s important to some extent too, but I’m referring to objective comparisons.

It doesn’t matter whether I go by feel or numbers provided in this thread. Both things indicate that the Warrior gets better numbers from less investment. Add in the fact it has more health and things start to get ridiculous.

If both classes had Ranger health they might be pretty balanced.

Can’t they just buff the Virtue of Resolve by the percentage of the Guardians total health for example 1.5% or 2%, the “active” can just stay the same, but the “passive heal” needs to be buffed.