Guild Wars 2

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

anduriell.6280:

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

I don’t think the Warrior has any traits or skills that add a passive 25% movement speed… There’s a few skills that have good swiftness uptime, and one trait that gives swiftness on crit. There are also other traits that reduce cripple / immobilize and such, but they don’t actively speed you up, per se.

But movement speed like that isn’t just for running away, it’s also valuable when trying to keep up with a target who is trying to escape.

Softspoken.2410:

anduriell.6280:

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

I don’t think the Warrior has any traits or skills that add a passive 25% movement speed… There’s a few skills that have good swiftness uptime, and one trait that gives swiftness on crit. There are also other traits that reduce cripple / immobilize and such, but they don’t actively speed you up, per se.

But movement speed like that isn’t just for running away, it’s also valuable when trying to keep up with a target who is trying to escape.

They have, wearing melee weapons gives them 25% movement speed passive.

well at the current sate of the game these skills seems right but don’t forget about taunt ability. I believe shout should have a taunt implemented into it
ex taunt up to 5 enemies for X amount of time within X range, give self retal for X amount of time give alleys swiftness and not your self

signet of Courage need to be scalded down at least or will be to powerful in pvp .
my idea is to implement condition invulnerability to alleys.
eg. PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds restore 25-50% health become invulnerable to conditions for X amount of seconds. conditions still be on you but you wount be affected by them

Ragnarox.9601:

They have, wearing melee weapons gives them 25% movement speed passive.

That’s a little bit open interpretation don’t you think?

Softspoken.2410:

But movement speed like that isn’t just for running away, it’s also valuable when trying to keep up with a target who is trying to escape.

I know. But giving a heavy armor class a passive swiftness could be OP. For that we have the swiftness spikes that give us faster speed (33% vs 25%) that is meant to do that: catch up with the cowards.
Otherwise we would have a tank that runs like a cheetah and hit like a truck. Tell me that doesn’t sound like a winner class.

Guards also have teleports/jumps/blinks that are great for this situations. We don’t need to think much in melee but you’ll have to manage your speed resources strategically in case of a run away.

You are thinking in traditional terms in a non-traditional game. Given that avoidance and active defense are infinitely superior to “tanking”, there are no currently built tanks in the game. It is possible to build tanky, but the return is so little and the damage output drops drastically, your fear of a cheetah/truck is unreasonable.

Currently we are in a scenario where everyone either has strong ranged options and/or can maintain a high degree of mobility in combat. Either by runspeed, evades, teleports, combat breakers.

Guardians, necromancers, and mesmers are the advertised “least” mobile the last I heard. Necromancers maintain a high degree of target mobility control to maintain combat range. Mesmers have invis/clone mechanics/evades to stay highly mobile in combat.

Guardians have 3 sources of immobilizes, two of which are unreliable or impractical to take (hammer/signet). We also have a chill trait which is insufficient to maintain combat, and a tome that cripples, but tomes are another issue all together and apparently going away.

Our best mobility is a combination of sword/great sword and JI. Yet after you close the gap, it is reopened by the high mobility/evasion of opposing classes. Which goes back to the want/need of soft CCs or more in combat mobility.

This may be a moot point now with the inclusion of long bow and traps…but this is all to be determined after expansion release so we await tentatively.

anduriell.6280:

Ragnarox.9601:

They have, wearing melee weapons gives them 25% movement speed passive.

That’s a little bit open interpretation don’t you think?

Softspoken.2410:

But movement speed like that isn’t just for running away, it’s also valuable when trying to keep up with a target who is trying to escape.

I know. But giving a heavy armor class a passive swiftness could be OP. For that we have the swiftness spikes that give us faster speed (33% vs 25%) that is meant to do that: catch up with the cowards.
Otherwise we would have a tank that runs like a cheetah and hit like a truck. Tell me that doesn’t sound like a winner class.

Guards also have teleports/jumps/blinks that are great for this situations. We don’t need to think much in melee but you’ll have to manage your speed resources strategically in case of a run away.

So wait you are telling me you are using Staff and Retreat? How is that even comparable to perma 25% movement trait ? retreat is just a waste of skill. And staff gives you speed if you actually stand on your symbol, how can you then chase someone ??

No. Although i had perma-swiftness (34 sec swiftness against 32sec CD) i got bored of having to cast retreat all the time.

Otherwise retreat gives you speed superior than signet/trait + free aegis so i think is a great shout one of the best with stand your ground.

I got traveller runes and now i’m very happy. Now a don’t have perma-burning + perma-swiftness but burning right now is mostly useless anyway.

anduriell.6280:

No. Although i had perma-swiftness (34 sec swiftness against 32sec CD) i got bored of having to cast retreat all the time.

Otherwise retreat gives you speed superior than signet/trait + free aegis so i think is a great shout one of the best with stand your ground.

I got traveller runes and now i’m very happy. Now a don’t have perma-burning + perma-swiftness but burning right now is mostly useless anyway.

Retreat is useless…even with shorter cd buff…

Compare then 25% moving trait + rune of the pack to rune of traveler and retreat. Its just not in the same division. Its just like premiership compared to league 1.

You know… If every class has a passive movement boost, what’s the reason again to not take it? And likewise wouldn’t it be smarter to just drop the boost and make ut baselibe so you don’t have to use 1 utility/trait slot which limits diversity?

The point is: Not everyone should have a movement boost. It’s for classes which need to be evasive or kite-y. Guards don’t need a perma movement boost. They have enough tools already and, as pointed out, you CAN have 100% uptime of swiftness already. You use 1 utility for that and bufffood. That’s a fair downside imo.

That said, this discussion is way off-topic. Back to Tomes again.

I aswell think that the replacement of Tomes is for the better and yes, the currently planed alternatives are way underpowered. Renewed focus does a lot. It’s like with the Rangers Healing Spring when it comes to groupplay – If you have an option like this you either A) make the other choices equally overpowered or You split the effects to have clear up- abd downsides.

Personally I vote for B. Renewed Focus does too much currently. Compare it with let’s say Signet of Rage or Timewarp. No other elite is so awsome in comparison.

That’s why I vote for a nerf to RF and part of the mechanics being placed on the new Elites. Same goes for Healing spring, I want the condi removal on Troll Urgent and the Regen (+Protection) on Healing as One.

And yes guys, I play and maib Ranger/Guard. I know exactly what is strong on those classes but I’m not a fan of abusing op stuff to win. I want to have decisions wheter I need something against situation A or B, not a all around solution which is also overtuned.

Akuni.8604:

You know… If every class has a passive movement boost, what’s the reason again to not take it? And likewise wouldn’t it be smarter to just drop the boost and make ut baselibe so you don’t have to use 1 utility/trait slot which limits diversity?

The point is: Not everyone should have a movement boost. It’s for classes which need to be evasive or kite-y. Guards don’t need a perma movement boost. They have enough tools already and, as pointed out, you CAN have 100% uptime of swiftness already. You use 1 utility for that and bufffood. That’s a fair downside imo.

Can I have your signet of stone, ill gladly give you Retreat and 100% uptime with food.

Akuni.8604:

That said, this discussion is way off-topic. Back to Tomes again.
I aswell think that the replacement of Tomes is for the better and yes, the currently planed alternatives are way underpowered. Renewed focus does a lot. It’s like with the Rangers Healing Spring when it comes to groupplay – If you have an option like this you either A) make the other choices equally overpowered or You split the effects to have clear up- abd downsides.

Personally I vote for B. Renewed Focus does too much currently. Compare it with let’s say Signet of Rage or Timewarp. No other elite is so awsome in comparison.

That’s why I vote for a nerf to RF and part of the mechanics being placed on the new Elites. Same goes for Healing spring, I want the condi removal on Troll Urgent and the Regen (+Protection) on Healing as One.

And yes guys, I play and maib Ranger/Guard. I know exactly what is strong on those classes but I’m not a fan of abusing op stuff to win. I want to have decisions wheter I need something against situation A or B, not a all around solution which is also overtuned.

RF is fine as it is. It does give invul and refresh long virtue cd’s. It does not give any passive nor buffs and has a long cd.

Ragnarox.9601:

Akuni.8604:

You know… If every class has a passive movement boost, what’s the reason again to not take it? And likewise wouldn’t it be smarter to just drop the boost and make ut baselibe so you don’t have to use 1 utility/trait slot which limits diversity?

The point is: Not everyone should have a movement boost. It’s for classes which need to be evasive or kite-y. Guards don’t need a perma movement boost. They have enough tools already and, as pointed out, you CAN have 100% uptime of swiftness already. You use 1 utility for that and bufffood. That’s a fair downside imo.

Can I have your signet of stone, ill gladly give you Retreat and 100% uptime with food.

Akuni.8604:

That said, this discussion is way off-topic. Back to Tomes again.
I aswell think that the replacement of Tomes is for the better and yes, the currently planed alternatives are way underpowered. Renewed focus does a lot. It’s like with the Rangers Healing Spring when it comes to groupplay – If you have an option like this you either A) make the other choices equally overpowered or You split the effects to have clear up- abd downsides.

Personally I vote for B. Renewed Focus does too much currently. Compare it with let’s say Signet of Rage or Timewarp. No other elite is so awsome in comparison.

That’s why I vote for a nerf to RF and part of the mechanics being placed on the new Elites. Same goes for Healing spring, I want the condi removal on Troll Urgent and the Regen (+Protection) on Healing as One.

And yes guys, I play and maib Ranger/Guard. I know exactly what is strong on those classes but I’m not a fan of abusing op stuff to win. I want to have decisions wheter I need something against situation A or B, not a all around solution which is also overtuned.

RF is fine as it is. It does give invul and refresh long virtue cd’s. It does not give any passive nor buffs and has a long cd.

And it doesnt allow free damage like the ele earth focus 5 so no need to fix what isnt broken

Vizardlorde.8243:

Ragnarox.9601:

Akuni.8604:

You know… If every class has a passive movement boost, what’s the reason again to not take it? And likewise wouldn’t it be smarter to just drop the boost and make ut baselibe so you don’t have to use 1 utility/trait slot which limits diversity?

The point is: Not everyone should have a movement boost. It’s for classes which need to be evasive or kite-y. Guards don’t need a perma movement boost. They have enough tools already and, as pointed out, you CAN have 100% uptime of swiftness already. You use 1 utility for that and bufffood. That’s a fair downside imo.

Can I have your signet of stone, ill gladly give you Retreat and 100% uptime with food.

Akuni.8604:

That said, this discussion is way off-topic. Back to Tomes again.
I aswell think that the replacement of Tomes is for the better and yes, the currently planed alternatives are way underpowered. Renewed focus does a lot. It’s like with the Rangers Healing Spring when it comes to groupplay – If you have an option like this you either A) make the other choices equally overpowered or You split the effects to have clear up- abd downsides.

Personally I vote for B. Renewed Focus does too much currently. Compare it with let’s say Signet of Rage or Timewarp. No other elite is so awsome in comparison.

That’s why I vote for a nerf to RF and part of the mechanics being placed on the new Elites. Same goes for Healing spring, I want the condi removal on Troll Urgent and the Regen (+Protection) on Healing as One.

And yes guys, I play and maib Ranger/Guard. I know exactly what is strong on those classes but I’m not a fan of abusing op stuff to win. I want to have decisions wheter I need something against situation A or B, not a all around solution which is also overtuned.

RF is fine as it is. It does give invul and refresh long virtue cd’s. It does not give any passive nor buffs and has a long cd.

And it doesnt allow free damage like the ele earth focus 5 so no need to fix what isnt broken

Ele: You’re invul to give you much needed survivability (remember you’re basically wet paper) and you can cast skills (mostly dashes or similar becazse let’s face it you don’t need your invul if there’s no enemy in your face (.

Guard: You’re invul but you still have high toughness to survive more hits. You refresh your virtues (That’s +1 strong heal, burn application and block from aegis. And that’S WITHOUT trait bonuses like might, stability, condi cleanse, protect etc.).

You’re basically comparing apples and oranges. Why do people not use Tomes most of the time? Because RF does so many valuable things and is statistically better than the other choices.
That’s a fact. Admit it and move on, I won’t discuss with you on that matter because I can clearly see how much you like RF – Which is normal, broken things are always the most fun. But sometimes that gives you very little counterplay/downsides – This shouldn’t happen and leads to a stale game.

I made my point above. No need to further derail this thread with “But but”s.

Ragnarox.9601:

Softspoken.2410:

anduriell.6280:

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

I don’t think the Warrior has any traits or skills that add a passive 25% movement speed… There’s a few skills that have good swiftness uptime, and one trait that gives swiftness on crit. There are also other traits that reduce cripple / immobilize and such, but they don’t actively speed you up, per se.

But movement speed like that isn’t just for running away, it’s also valuable when trying to keep up with a target who is trying to escape.

They have, wearing melee weapons gives them 25% movement speed passive.

And not only that, they can also easly keep perma Swiftness with any difficulty what so ever. Also they are the most mobile class in the game, even more than thieves.

@edit
And the question continues, the shield will be truly improved to be useful? I don’t have a problem to be a support weapon, but it needs at least to be more viable. The CD reduction wasn’t enough.

if they gave stability or allowed me to raise a player that is downed while the tome was out id be happy with tomes

Akuni.8604:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Ragnarox.9601:

Akuni.8604:

You know… If every class has a passive movement boost, what’s the reason again to not take it? And likewise wouldn’t it be smarter to just drop the boost and make ut baselibe so you don’t have to use 1 utility/trait slot which limits diversity?

The point is: Not everyone should have a movement boost. It’s for classes which need to be evasive or kite-y. Guards don’t need a perma movement boost. They have enough tools already and, as pointed out, you CAN have 100% uptime of swiftness already. You use 1 utility for that and bufffood. That’s a fair downside imo.

Can I have your signet of stone, ill gladly give you Retreat and 100% uptime with food.

Akuni.8604:

That said, this discussion is way off-topic. Back to Tomes again.
I aswell think that the replacement of Tomes is for the better and yes, the currently planed alternatives are way underpowered. Renewed focus does a lot. It’s like with the Rangers Healing Spring when it comes to groupplay – If you have an option like this you either A) make the other choices equally overpowered or You split the effects to have clear up- abd downsides.

Personally I vote for B. Renewed Focus does too much currently. Compare it with let’s say Signet of Rage or Timewarp. No other elite is so awsome in comparison.

That’s why I vote for a nerf to RF and part of the mechanics being placed on the new Elites. Same goes for Healing spring, I want the condi removal on Troll Urgent and the Regen (+Protection) on Healing as One.

And yes guys, I play and maib Ranger/Guard. I know exactly what is strong on those classes but I’m not a fan of abusing op stuff to win. I want to have decisions wheter I need something against situation A or B, not a all around solution which is also overtuned.

RF is fine as it is. It does give invul and refresh long virtue cd’s. It does not give any passive nor buffs and has a long cd.

And it doesnt allow free damage like the ele earth focus 5 so no need to fix what isnt broken

Ele: You’re invul to give you much needed survivability (remember you’re basically wet paper) and you can cast skills (mostly dashes or similar becazse let’s face it you don’t need your invul if there’s no enemy in your face (.

Guard: You’re invul but you still have high toughness to survive more hits. You refresh your virtues (That’s +1 strong heal, burn application and block from aegis. And that’S WITHOUT trait bonuses like might, stability, condi cleanse, protect etc.).

You’re basically comparing apples and oranges. Why do people not use Tomes most of the time? Because RF does so many valuable things and is statistically better than the other choices.
That’s a fact. Admit it and move on, I won’t discuss with you on that matter because I can clearly see how much you like RF – Which is normal, broken things are always the most fun. But sometimes that gives you very little counterplay/downsides – This shouldn’t happen and leads to a stale game.

I made my point above. No need to further derail this thread with “But but”s.

Cele ele – talking about broken things….

Ragnarox.9601:

Cele ele – talking about broken things….

Well those are getting nerfed, so…

Combine all skills from the ToW and ToC into 7 Auras. One Heal skill, 4 Utility Auras, and 2 Elite Auras (1 Offensive and 1 Supportive)

Examples of similar skill types:
_
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/crusader/active/#type=laws
_
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/monk/active/#type=mantras
_
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Paladin_Offensive_Auras
_
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Paladin_Defensive_Auras

To make room for the new skill type I suggest removing Spirit Weapons from the game. Simply put, they are bad design. (Except from Shield of the Avenger – maybe make that as an active of the defensive elite aura)

The idea i’m trying to make is reduce the clutter of traits the guardian has and solidify it’s current good traits. Good traits being shouts, consecrations and meditations.

Signets still need rework, but spirit weapons need to go imo.

This is what I would do with the tomes, if not just leave them as they are now and tag them as “Tome” and add traits in virtues or Separate for each tome Zeal/Radiance – Valor/Honor/Virtues.

Akuni.8604:

Vizardlorde.8243:

Ragnarox.9601:

Akuni.8604:

You know… If every class has a passive movement boost, what’s the reason again to not take it? And likewise wouldn’t it be smarter to just drop the boost and make ut baselibe so you don’t have to use 1 utility/trait slot which limits diversity?

The point is: Not everyone should have a movement boost. It’s for classes which need to be evasive or kite-y. Guards don’t need a perma movement boost. They have enough tools already and, as pointed out, you CAN have 100% uptime of swiftness already. You use 1 utility for that and bufffood. That’s a fair downside imo.

Can I have your signet of stone, ill gladly give you Retreat and 100% uptime with food.

Akuni.8604:

That said, this discussion is way off-topic. Back to Tomes again.
I aswell think that the replacement of Tomes is for the better and yes, the currently planed alternatives are way underpowered. Renewed focus does a lot. It’s like with the Rangers Healing Spring when it comes to groupplay – If you have an option like this you either A) make the other choices equally overpowered or You split the effects to have clear up- abd downsides.

Personally I vote for B. Renewed Focus does too much currently. Compare it with let’s say Signet of Rage or Timewarp. No other elite is so awsome in comparison.

That’s why I vote for a nerf to RF and part of the mechanics being placed on the new Elites. Same goes for Healing spring, I want the condi removal on Troll Urgent and the Regen (+Protection) on Healing as One.

And yes guys, I play and maib Ranger/Guard. I know exactly what is strong on those classes but I’m not a fan of abusing op stuff to win. I want to have decisions wheter I need something against situation A or B, not a all around solution which is also overtuned.

RF is fine as it is. It does give invul and refresh long virtue cd’s. It does not give any passive nor buffs and has a long cd.

And it doesnt allow free damage like the ele earth focus 5 so no need to fix what isnt broken

Ele: You’re invul to give you much needed survivability (remember you’re basically wet paper) and you can cast skills (mostly dashes or similar becazse let’s face it you don’t need your invul if there’s no enemy in your face (.

Guard: You’re invul but you still have high toughness to survive more hits. You refresh your virtues (That’s +1 strong heal, burn application and block from aegis. And that’S WITHOUT trait bonuses like might, stability, condi cleanse, protect etc.).

You’re basically comparing apples and oranges. Why do people not use Tomes most of the time? Because RF does so many valuable things and is statistically better than the other choices.
That’s a fact. Admit it and move on, I won’t discuss with you on that matter because I can clearly see how much you like RF – Which is normal, broken things are always the most fun. But sometimes that gives you very little counterplay/downsides – This shouldn’t happen and leads to a stale game.

I made my point above. No need to further derail this thread with “But but”s.

wet paper eles are staff fire eles any ele traited water or earth is sturdier than any guardian warrrior or necro. And the reason why RF> tomes is not because RF is broken, its because tomes are. The reason why we deal lower direct damage than warriors is because VoJ compensates our damage with burning, the reason why we have less health than a warrior is because VoR and VoC are passively incresing our survivability. When you use tome all of that goes to kitten. No virtue passive or active, no shelter block, no utilities to rely on, and in the case of wrath no personal gain at all(courage at least boosts your survivability in exchange for almost nonexistent damage)

Ragnarox.9601:

Softspoken.2410:

anduriell.6280:

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

I don’t think the Warrior has any traits or skills that add a passive 25% movement speed… There’s a few skills that have good swiftness uptime, and one trait that gives swiftness on crit. There are also other traits that reduce cripple / immobilize and such, but they don’t actively speed you up, per se.

But movement speed like that isn’t just for running away, it’s also valuable when trying to keep up with a target who is trying to escape.

They have, wearing melee weapons gives them 25% movement speed passive.

Ah, thanks! I missed Warrior’s Sprint in the list since the text description doesn’t say “movement” or “25%”.

anduriell.6280:

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

Yes, Warrior has warrior sprint trait…

tho, not every warrior use this trait…not every necro use the 25% speed signet, not every ranger use 25% speed signet….not every ele use 25% speed signet…name em all…

but at least they all have options…and we don’t…

velocity.4621:

anduriell.6280:

velocity.4621:

tome ideas?
anything will do…just add passive 25% movement speed….i care more about that…
please?

It is said the heavy armour class should get movement signet/trait. Does the warrior have anything like that?
Right know you could use traveller runes or shout build to permanent swiftness.

I think our lack of speed is a annoyance but seems right for a guard. You aren’t supposed to run from a fight anyway.

Yes, Warrior has warrior sprint trait…

tho, not every warrior use this trait…not every necro use the 25% speed signet, not every ranger use 25% speed signet….not every ele use 25% speed signet…name em all…

but at least they all have options…and we don’t…

Actually they do use it and we don’t (because we don’t have it)

@Akuni – There is such a fine line that is balanced between “broken because OP” and worthless. Worthless is just as broken as OP. I, like many who have posted before, run almost exclusively renewed focus as my elite because nothing else is worth using. In my opinion, I am no more likely to run other elites as a result of them simply nerfing the one viable elite left to the guardian. Yet that is following a digression to the real purpose of the post.

I do think the Tome —> Signet is a good idea.

1. It fits well into the overall game plan for revamping the traits into core specializations. From the developers side that has to carry weight and those objecting to the change should present viable alternatives for making the tomes work within the new system.
2. All of this is hedged with the qualifier that it is a work in progress, the developers will do their mathematical calculations and balance it out. If they do, as several have suggested, scale the PBAoE passive heal and the Full heal based on healing power, I don’t see how this would be OP as some have expressed concern about. If you get someone that is willing to sacrifice the stats elsewhere to put them into healing, then they should be rewarded with the benefit of having a significant impact on the party, especially since they then bring less DPS to the party. What seems like the vast majority of the GW2 players view anything other than Zerker with great distain. Even those who are more “open minded” about the matter seem to see Condi as the only alternative. Almost nobody seems to consider the defensive stats much. Let those folks who want to run clerics gear get some bang for their buck.
3. As to rates and ratios, I prefer a balance between the present 10/8 second trait setup as it is and the idea of 1/10th the healing every second as was suggested a ways back in the thread. I think a balanced 4/3 second tick would be better. The higher frequency because it IS an elite and should therefore be better than other signets. Yet 4 seconds, reduced to ~3 with Perfect Inscriptions, still allows it to benefit from the trait (See point 1) which is not really viable if reduced to a 1 or 2 second tick.

As with the Signet, I think the Tome —> Shout could also work
1. I think this one needs more thought. There is a reason so many have commented and come up with diverse proposals for what this should should do. Since the idea seems to be keep the shout in line with the purpose of Tome of Wrath it should really be primarily and strongly offensive, albeit modified by Pure of Voice.
2. Whatever effect is chosen (I seem to recall knockdown, burning, fury, might, damage as being the most frequently suggested) It should be something that is/can be modified by other trait choices to improve or increase the effect of using the skill.
3. Again, this is an elite skill, and should be actually worth taking and using. Hopefully we are starting to see Anet recognize and address that too many elites in the game are worthless. If they are going to change it (IMHO a good idea) they might as well change it to something actually worth using and not simply exchanging worthless for more of the same.

Now if they would actually consider doing something about/with the racial skills . . .

Hmm…if this is added in, will the Tomes be removed the same patch? If so, what is going to happen to the to skill 5 of the Tomes? AoE daze and KD is pretty strong.

Tomes are definitely needing help, but I’ll miss having them if this change takes place.

Not that the changes are bad at all, both look like great alternatives. I just enjoy using them on occasion.

I have a pretty decent build that I sometimes swap Tome of Wrath in for in WvW. Nothing makes me smile more than a pesky kite/stealth/clone/etc player that I can pop my tome and nuke them down before they realize what’s going on.

It isn’t much useful for anything else, but I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. Judgement is downright killer also. I just spam 1 on top of them until they get to 30% or so, then quickness/judgement to stun and finish them while knocked down.

Hopefully when the Tome’s return, they come back to the Guardian so I can get some of that enjoyment again.

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

Hmm…if this is added in, will the Tomes be removed the same patch?

Let’s reframe that question and see if it doesn’t answer itself…

“Hey, Arenanet, how about you have one and only one profession have FIVE elite skills to choose from until you get rid of the two old ones that don’t fit the new emphasis on unified utility skill types?”

Because there’s no chance the other 7 professions would explode into frothing rage .

To be fair, I think the term “become” is what has that question answer itself

Nike.2631:

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

Hmm…if this is added in, will the Tomes be removed the same patch?

Let’s reframe that question and see if it doesn’t answer itself…

“Hey, Arenanet, how about you have one and only one profession have FIVE elite skills to choose from until you get rid of the two old ones that don’t fit the new emphasis on unified utility skill types?”

Because there’s no chance the other 7 professions would explode into frothing rage .

Tomes could easily become consecrations or spirit weapons (more easily than completely replacing them with new skills), so that “unification” stuff is really just a non-issue.
People will always find something to complain about, such as “Why does only this profession get two new elites!?”, so that same logic applies in this as well.

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

Tome of Courage:
The passive effect sounds too long to trigger (10 seconds).
I would make Virtue of Resolve passive effect keep on going even if it’s on cooldown and improve its healing (something like 30%).
If you chose Perfect Inscription, you add 20% to the Virtue of Resolve‘s healing effect.
I’m not really confident with balance but I think 50% is ok if you have to sacrifice a trait slot and an elite skill.

Tome of Wrath:
As Honor reduce Shout cooldown and grant us might on crit, I’m pretty happy to get a Shout with Quickness and Fury.
It would be nice if you could remove the 1sec CD on Empowering might.
With the Longbow and Feel My Wrath, Guardian could be backline Phalanx.

The passive on SoC could easily be something like a 2k heal, which would be a 200hps spread. Exactly when the heal procs is generally less important than the rate it heals. Plus, you get the effect without much effort.

And I don’t really think we need to remove the icd on EM. The reason phalanx strength works on warrior is because of the greatsword trait, which means you won’t really get much use out of other weapons. EM works right out of the box, and just by auto attacking you’re generally getting the effect as often as you really need

I like the shout. Although the passive signet heal seems somewhat obsolete when we already have Virtue of Resolve with Battle Presence to heal five players. Why not make the signet give everyone increased boon duration or decreased condition duration? Since the signet trait is in the offensive trait line I’d suggest something more offensive such as increased boon duration.

Ghotistyx.6942:

The passive on SoC could easily be something like a 2k heal, which would be a 200hps spread. Exactly when the heal procs is generally less important than the rate it heals. Plus, you get the effect without much effort.

And I don’t really think we need to remove the icd on EM. The reason phalanx strength works on warrior is because of the greatsword trait, which means you won’t really get much use out of other weapons. EM works right out of the box, and just by auto attacking you’re generally getting the effect as often as you really need

The problem with Empowering might its that its effectively 5 stacks of might tops at 100% crit chance and 0 boon duration with 1 hit per second, under more realistc circumstances its closer to 2-3 stacks of might. And dont count on it being group support cause the radius is pretty much melee range.
I dont support removing the cooldown either ( it would make it a better clone of phalanx strength) IMO the best solution would be to increase the might duration to 8-10 secs and increase the radius to 600

You only need 100% crit if you’re only managing 1 attack per second. Even on a single target you can do more than that. However, without any boon duration, you’re right about only getting 5 stacks, but that’s 5 stacks you can put into a zerg or on allies in pvp where PS doesn’t really see much light. I wouldn’t be opposed to having changes for EM, but they probably shouldn’t be too far from the current iteration.

Honestly this doesn’t sound too bad. Having two skill types of “Tome” that were otherwise pretty much unsupported was kindof strange to me. Although I think rounding it out with a Consecration Elite would be nice too. Don’t think we’d get it in now, of course. With the Signet constantly healing and providing a single mass heal to the part, and the Shout likely having a shorter cooldown than ANY tome, I can definitely see some new build ideas coming from them. I think RF might still be the most popular. of course, but the others can at least try to compete now.

I see two sides to this. On one side, people feel Tomes are useless and would love to have them replaced, and of course they’d come back later in an Elite Spec. Cool.

On the other side, some people love the Tomes and wouldn’t like losing them. Anet says they would come back in an Elite Spec, but knowing Anet that could mean we’re looking at years before seeing the Elite Spec ever actually return. I’m sure by now we all understand the meaning of “soon.”

Shaogin.2679:

I see two sides to this. On one side, people feel Tomes are useless and would love to have them replaced, and of course they’d come back later in an Elite Spec. Cool.

On the other side, some people love the Tomes and wouldn’t like losing them. Anet says they would come back in an Elite Spec, but knowing Anet that could mean we’re looking at years before seeing the Elite Spec ever actually return. I’m sure by now we all understand the meaning of “soon.”

To be fair, in 2,5 years I’ve never seen anyone use the Tomes besides our guild doing a few troll runs in wvw of 20 Guards with tomes. Everyone uses the Renewed Focus because that’s the least sucky one.

I don’t see them used frequently, but I’ve seen people use tomes in literally every mode (Tome of Courage typically appearing more often).

Unfortunatly, guardians are in a good place and getting something that’s actually going to change our risk vs reward is off the table.

Ragnarox.9601:
-Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance
-Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury
Give a passive of 25% movement speed.

Wont’ happen.

We will forever be stuck w/ having runes for speed on ANY viable DPS / Roaming build.

Guardian = Staff user in the eyes of the dev’s.

I’ve skipped most of the posts here so I don’t know if this has been suggested. Why not just make tome into a weapon? Necros/Eles/Guards and maybe even Mesmers could use Tomes as a weapon. Main Hand Tome? Just an idea.

To the main point, I do think the changes are a good idea since traiting for tomes as of now is a pain (almost nothing to trait for tomes) however those elites will need to be pretty good in order for me to consider swapping out Renewed Focus for it. Renewed Focus invulnerability (+healing for medi builds) on top of refreshing virtues is quite hard to beat. Though passive 25% movespeed, just might be able to top it.

Mizu.4508:

I’ve skipped most of the posts here so I don’t know if this has been suggested. Why not just make tome into a weapon? Necros/Eles/Guards and maybe even Mesmers could use Tomes as a weapon. Main Hand Tome? Just an idea.

An idea that casually commits the art department to hundreds of hours of work (themed book for every weapon set in the game), time spent adding/hooking up scores of recipes to craft them, re-writing virtually every loot table in the game so they drop appropriately, tinkering with dungeon vendors, reward boxes, and achievement chests to add them to those reward options… And THEN the time required to design, script, animate and test new 3-5 skill for 3 classes.

So, not a casual suggestion at all.

Not to mention, what would separate Tomes from Foci? Foci already have Tome skins.

“Feel My Wrath” and Signet of Courage looks good. Especially signed fits great with guardian.

About Tomes i think there should not be duration after which tome dissapear, they should be similar to engies kits.
But with some activation time (Summoning magical tome) or recharge time after unequipping tome.

Profession suitable for using tomes: Guardian, Elementalist, Mesmer, Necromancer, Revenant

How to obtain specialization with tomes?
Visit Wizard’s Tower .

JonPeters.5630:

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

So, we’ve commented. At length. Any feedback from your end to close the loop?

Indeed, I’d love a response.

I’m not sure expecting a reply on a Sunday is a smart idea.

Expecting a reply on any day isn’t a smart idea. Usually, Anet doesn’t ‘discuss’. They present a question, maybe provide one explanation then do as they see fit with what they read and how they think. It’s a pattern wee have seen over the last 3 years. The only dev that will have an actual back and forth with people is John Smith.

Arrk.4102:

I’m not sure expecting a reply on a Sunday is a smart idea.

I don’t need one today . I’d just like to see one this week.

Then again I was probably spoiled by the CDI’s where they actively worked at making us feel like we were part of a process and being listened to even if most of our suggestions wouldn’t make the leap to actually being in the game. Good times.

Please do not change the tomes. It really makes healing viable on the guardian. You already have so many AOE pulsing heals passively, so please DO NOT change it. I really liked the elite skill that made it so that tomes lasted 30 seconds. Also, none of the current healing builds center around signents, tomes just really felt like an elite skill as opposed to another passive for the guardian.

Healing role is really nonexistent in this game, and the way it works is if you use the tome to heal you are useless at all times in any sort of team setting. If you want to be a dedicated healer, this is the wrong game for you.

Hey Jon, I really like the new ideas you are considering and I hope that you make these changes sooner rather than later!

Right now tomes are extremely situational and I would say 99% of guardians are forced to run renewed focus. I believe with the signet and shout elites it would open up a lot more builds for team pvp and we’d see more diverse Guardians out there.

Thanks,

Feral