Guild Wars 2

Over 4 yeas now, and this skill is still not worth to use anywhere?

Not even Blizzard is slower in buffing/changing undertuned talents/traits or skills!

Lets talk about something diffrent, how about spiritweapons?,

Rly, i think it´s a shame for anet. And it needs to be said, haters (fanboys) gonna hate.

Norjena.5172:

Over 4 yeas now, and this skill is still not worth to use anywhere?

Not even Blizzard is slower in buffing/changing undertuned talents/traits or skills!

Lets talk about something diffrent, how about spiritweapons?,

Rly, i think it´s a shame for anet. And it needs to be said, haters (fanboys) gonna hate.

Agree.
Only in some situations were for fun you can aoe in line with feel my wrath lol….nothing else.
As for spirit weapons…put them back in the closet :P

I use it when I use scepter as it is the only cleave the set has aside from symbol. It can also be useful if you have a F1 passive build.

Cleansing Flame is excellent in a burn build and has the opportunity for good team support. It fulfills its niche very well and is a staple in my burn guard’s repertoire.

It’s a lot nicer with the decreased channel time, although I still think it could use another buff or two.

Fashion Mage.3712:

It’s a lot nicer with the decreased channel time, although I still think it could use another buff or two.

In my opinion it needs one of the following:
- Torch trait makes #5 burn off boons from enemies
- #5 removes conditions from the guardian as well
- #5 applies a stack of burning per hit

And then for spirit weapons, please Anet just make them like necromancer minions and only go away if killed.

I never liked its cleansing ability. The cleanse tick feels as if it’s only a single condition cleansed among 3 targeted ally’s rather than a single cleanse per ally, per tick, for a total of 27 cleansed conditions (assuming they receive a condition per second). Regardless, the cleanse effect feels lackluster considering the close proximity ability is a channel effect.

The same could be said about its Burn (or power dmg) damages. Personally, Dulled Senses needs to have an F1 activation stack no more than x3. As it happens, an F1 activation by Dulled Senses consumes, nulls, or replaces any burn activation you may have up… making it do nothing. This change would improve DH burn effectiveness and Torch#5 both.

I agree. Torch 5 reworked (burns on ticks or making it a fire field) could make a Viper/Sinister Guardian viable.

On the other hand comparing to Blizzard (yikes) is a bit harsh and unnecessary IMO.

Cleansing Flame definitely does not need burning per tick. It can already output 10 stacks when supported. A similar discussion is going on about Engi’s Flamethrower (of which Cleansing Flame is basically just a slightly slower version). Burn per tick when you have 10+ ticks gets out of hand real quick.

Torch needs to be a weapon with only instant casts… Torch 4 should instantly light you on fire and another press should cause you to cast an instant flame attack on your target. Torch 5 should instantly cause you to pulse flames around you that cures allies of one condition per pulse and damage enemies in an aoe radius…

Torch would be lit then!

Ghotistyx.6942:

Cleansing Flame definitely does not need burning per tick. It can already output 10 stacks when supported. A similar discussion is going on about Engi’s Flamethrower (of which Cleansing Flame is basically just a slightly slower version). Burn per tick when you have 10+ ticks gets out of hand real quick.

Your point? Cause that is better than it being pure trash right now.

Azoqu.8917:

Your point? Cause that is better than it being pure trash right now.

Y’know, that’d be true,
if it were true.

Back then I used to use Torch 5, when DH wasn’t a thing, it added a bit of extra range when running double melee. Now a days torch 5 is very meh, the only other synergetic thing I can see being maybe use is if you’re running Big Game Hunter, and want to stack vuln on top of doing damage. Needs a bit of a tune up no doubt.

Torch 5 is still nearly useless. The cleansing is useless any PvP format. In PvE if you are using condi build it should be used on CD, since it provides more ticks within the time frame than AA. For power builds still mostly useless.

This is one of these situation where devs did not address why the skill with problematic and made a random buff that did not resolve the issue so the skill remains useless.

Torch is a staple pve weapon already, so let’s give it a buff for pvp/wvw instead. Here’s an idea: Torch #5 applies blind per tick. Very short duration blind, like 1 sec.

So, as long as you breath flame on your foes’ faces, they can’t land a hit. It’s similar to a block, only it can be countered by resistance or invulnerability, it only works in a single direction and against melee attackers, but it can also protect allies.

Skill itself is perhaps only good indirectly, like me and Ghotisyx mentioned, for F1 procs. Its utility is bit clunky but manageable. What it desperately needs is something to benefit self, even self-cleanse when you cleanse someone else effect would go a long way.

I’ve been a fan of changing it to remove 3 conditions from caster and allies. Something like one condition removed on the 1st, 5th, and 10th ticks, or the 2nd, 6th, and 10th. Looking at the “conditions cleared per 10 seconds” ratio, that would make it a very strong condition clear. But other than that, its not really lacking in the damage aspect, especially not while in a hybrid build.

Torch 5 to improve is easy: Add burn stacks for every third pulse, clean conditions on yourself.

Torch 4 could use some improvements: Add a personal firefield when activating and one to the projectile and the hittet enemy. Effects stays the same for every field the same→ clean condis from up to 3 allies and puls burn up to 3 enemies.

I think I’d like it a lot better if it was higher burst with less duration. Think more like a shout than a flamethrower kind of effect. I tend to only use the skill as a filler when absolutely everything else is on cooldown or if I know my target it completely immobile to get max hits, but then it lasts so long that I interrupt it halfway through to get back to a rotation.

Either that or a wider AoE so a target doesn’t have to be completely immobilized to get more hits. Between its cone shape and obvious (but really cool!) animation, it’s pretty useless in pvp.

Just wanted to say that torch 5 is one of my top picks for “most useless weapon skill on any class.” It has mediocre damage (outclassed by your auto attack), unreliable utility and no sustain. I don’t at all fear torch 5 when fighting against a guardian; I just face-tank it and have not regretted doing so as far as I can remember. It’s also part of the reason I became so disillusioned with playing burn-guard myself.

A lot of the suggestions here for improvements to torch 4 and 5 are great, really hope the devs take them into consideration for the not too distant future. Really, torch 5 needs an offensive buff and needs to offer more benefit to self. Right now it’s essentially “deal a bit of damage to someone if they’re slightly outside of your melee range,” and if you pair torch with scepter, there’s absolutely no point at all and you may as well just keep scepter auto-attacking.

As of now, Cleansing Flame deals around 15% more dps than Orb of Wrath, but about 17% less than Sword’s chain. However, Cleansing Flame applies around double the stacks per second of burning than Sword’s chain does, leading to more overall DPS when in a hybrid functionality.

Torch as a whole works really well in a hybrid build. Its has both good direct damage and burning application. Zealot’s Flame needs no design changes, just some mechanical QoL help. Cleansing Flame really only needs a tweak in its design (cleansing mechanics), but its offense is pretty good, especially when it’s in its niche.

Ghotistyx.6942:

As of now, Cleansing Flame deals around 15% more dps than Orb of Wrath, but about 17% less than Sword’s chain. However, Cleansing Flame applies around double the stacks per second of burning than Sword’s chain does, leading to more overall DPS when in a hybrid functionality.

Torch as a whole works really well in a hybrid build. Its has both good direct damage and burning application. Zealot’s Flame needs no design changes, just some mechanical QoL help. Cleansing Flame really only needs a tweak in its design (cleansing mechanics), but its offense is pretty good, especially when it’s in its niche.

I’m aware of that. I should clarify that I was speaking from a pvp or wvw standpoint. The amount of situations in which you’re really going to benefit form using torch 5 are so few (even for the niche build) that you may as well just keep auto attacking. Since it’s a channeled skill, you’ll only want to be using it if you have an opening or know that you aren’t about to get bombed and unless your opponent has a reflect up you’re better off using torch 4 (if it’s on cooldown). It would be a whole lot better if this skill was more widely applicable.

Because of its design, its strongest against max targets (3-5 depending on Permeating Wrath). No doubt it’ll feel lackluster in 1v1 situations, but in group fights or chewing through mobs it shines. Likewise with allies. The cleansing is only useful to allies, but it can counter a condi bomb on its own. Allowing for some self-cleansing would help it in those lonely situations. Then again, Zealot’s Flame/Fire (with Radiant Fire) is really strong in Singles situations, so perhaps that was a conscious design decision for the two skills. Both are offensive tools, but for use in differing situations.

On paper this sounds perfectly logical but I rarely found those situations to ever present themselves.

• Hitting 3-5 targets – this is fairly unlikely against multiple players. If it is happening, chances are you’re attacking a zerg and torch 5ing them probably isn’t the brightest idea at this moment.
• Cleansing allies: Very rarely was I ever able to make great use of this functionality. If you’re roaming havoc, your allies are going to be mobile and more spread-out. If the situation does present itself, it’s sort of a pain since you have to untarget a foe and sort of aim your camera up to hit allies (I play 3rd person with camera pointed slightly down;am sure a lot of players adopt this view as well). Not a great mechanic imo.

Torch 5’s design is okay, but out on the field it just doesn’t perform as well as you’d like it to. I agree with you though, the self-cleanse would be very helpful and would definitely make me pick it up again.

If you are judging it for 3 game modes, 2 different builds (power/condi), and 2 different main-hands (scepter/sword), then yes, you will find many shortcomings.

Torch is the only damage-focused off-hand Guardian has and, as expected, offers the highest DPS. Damage weapons have reduced efficiency in competitive modes, as is normal, especially when focus and shield offer so much utility.

The point still remains that what it’s meant to do (apply multiple VoJ procs), it does well. It is highly effective in a condi build, especially when fighting multiple mobs, which is standard in pve.

Of course, there is room for more reliable utility to increase its use in other game modes, but being bad in pvp doesn’t make it bad in every game mode.

In my opinion, even if it applied additional burn on its own, or cleansed conditions from self, it still wouldn’t see use in pvp/wvw, when focus and blocks of all kind already remove condis, and the condi build in general is underpowered.

As I said above, I would like to see it inflicting blind.

It is still a bad skill.

Torch is our only off-hand that is all offensive, but it’s offense is severely lacking.
It should offer some serious damage for going all offense vs the utility, damage and defense offered by Focus and Shield.

3.25 seconds to channel the damage still results in less damage than any of the 1H auto-attack chains.

Change it to be more like Elementalist’s Drake’s Breath – 2.25s cast time, same damage but over 4 hits.
Add 4 stacks of Burning for 2s.

And let’s not talk about the shield…

I think torch5 converting 2 boons to burn would be the best.

Vegetation.6419:

And let’s not talk about the shield…

Shield is good CC, projectile defense, block and prot. Torch is good… damage? Even Torch 4 is bad as it can miss when target is in range and in same elevation.

I don’t like the ideas that gives Torch supportive abilities for the Guard, rather, improve its concept design. I think burn dh in general is lacking compared to core, it’s why I want Dull Senses buffed (pvp only).

Ezrael.6859:

It is still a bad skill.

Torch is our only off-hand that is all offensive, but it’s offense is severely lacking.
It should offer some serious damage for going all offense vs the utility, damage and defense offered by Focus and Shield.

3.25 seconds to channel the damage still results in less damage than any of the 1H auto-attack chains.

Change it to be more like Elementalist’s Drake’s Breath – 2.25s cast time, same damage but over 4 hits.
Add 4 stacks of Burning for 2s.

It beats Mace and Scepter in Power and beats Sword in Hybrid or Condi. Its no longer a dps loss unless you’re only doing power sword.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ezrael.6859:

It is still a bad skill.

Torch is our only off-hand that is all offensive, but it’s offense is severely lacking.
It should offer some serious damage for going all offense vs the utility, damage and defense offered by Focus and Shield.

3.25 seconds to channel the damage still results in less damage than any of the 1H auto-attack chains.

Change it to be more like Elementalist’s Drake’s Breath – 2.25s cast time, same damage but over 4 hits.
Add 4 stacks of Burning for 2s.

It beats Mace and Scepter in Power and beats Sword in Hybrid or Condi. Its no longer a dps loss unless you’re only doing power sword.

I did not do the math, but scepter AA on one target does better damage. Beating mace is kind of pointless considering that mace is a healing/survivability weapon and there would be no reason what so ever to run torch with it anyway.

For sPvP, it is useless in every type and/or form.

It is okay that it has no place in sPvP, but it needs to be better than where it is in PvE. Fixing it could make condi builds much better.

Torch 5 is only cover fire, no other use for it. Clean condos on ally’s? Well they’re standing behind you in any pvp situation.

otto.5684:

I did not do the math, but scepter AA on one target does better damage. Beating mace is kind of pointless considering that mace is a healing/survivability weapon and there would be no reason what so ever to run torch with it anyway.

For sPvP, it is useless in every type and/or form.

It is okay that it has no place in sPvP, but it needs to be better than where it is in PvE. Fixing it could make condi builds much better.

I did some of the Math above in the thread. Cleansing Flame is ~15% power dps than Scepter AA, but 17% below Sword. Mace is below both iirc? If you’re a hybrid or condi guardian with targets, then Cleansing Flame will out dps any AA. I think part of it is that it a) isn’t supposed to be a core skill in spvp/1v1 and b) its largely a perception issue more than anything. It gets better the more targets there are (friendly or enemy), and I can say that I’ve definitely been finding enough opportunities to use it.

I honestly think Torch performs adequately from a design perspective. It really only needs some qol adjustments, not a big redesign.

Do you mind elaborating in a power build how torch 5 outdps scepter AA?

Assuming same stats, I had scepter dealing nearly 53% more damage than torch. Within 3.25 seconds time scepter does 6.5 atks. Even if you factor in after cast, you need to get below 4.5 atks from scepter within 3.25 time frame for torch to outdps scepter AA.

I did not factor in 15% extra critic chance for scepter AA, assuming you use Zeal line. I also did not factor in spear of justice burn procs, because if you are a DH, you are casting spear of justice on CD.

On single target it is not close. I might have missed something, but the scepter AA in a power build, on a single target should deal substantially more damage. While torch 5 will deal more damage against 2 or more targets, sword will still deal better aoe damage.

Torch 5 needs work. It should either be a utility skill, better support condi builds or flat out deal a lot more damage.

Ezrael.6859:

It is still a bad skill.

Torch is our only off-hand that is all offensive, but it’s offense is severely lacking.

It’s not, it’s the highest dps off-hand.

Still, torch is a condi weapon first and foremost, and guardian doesn’t have a good enough condi spec. That’s not torch’s problem, it a matter of getting a condi elite spec in the future.

otto.5684:

Do you mind elaborating in a power build how torch 5 outdps scepter AA?

I took the raw damage numbers of all weapons and their cast-times to create raw dps numbers. Then I used arbitrary numbers for stats (1k, 2k, 3k Power, 0 Condi Damage, 750, 1200, etc) and enemies (1, 3, 5) and averaged the damage out over a fight. That pit just the weapons alone against each other. Everything else either affects them all the same (and therefore is a wash), or it affects things unfairly (like RHS) and wouldn’t be a comparison of just the weapons. I did however apply Permeating Wrath only, because aoe burn application was a variable I wanted to test, particularly Sword AA vs Torch 5.

Builds might definitely change some results, but not everyone can be expected to run the same build.

Ghotistyx.6942:

otto.5684:

Do you mind elaborating in a power build how torch 5 outdps scepter AA?

I took the raw damage numbers of all weapons and their cast-times to create raw dps numbers. Then I used arbitrary numbers for stats (1k, 2k, 3k Power, 0 Condi Damage, 750, 1200, etc) and enemies (1, 3, 5) and averaged the damage out over a fight. That pit just the weapons alone against each other. Everything else either affects them all the same (and therefore is a wash), or it affects things unfairly (like RHS) and wouldn’t be a comparison of just the weapons. I did however apply Permeating Wrath only, because aoe burn application was a variable I wanted to test, particularly Sword AA vs Torch 5.

Builds might definitely change some results, but not everyone can be expected to run the same build.

You ran numbers based upon? People standing still on point?

The 3.25s cast time and huge animation means people gtfo before they’ve been hit by more than 3/10 hits.

Ezrael.6859:

You ran numbers based upon? People standing still on point?

The 3.25s cast time and huge animation means people gtfo before they’ve been hit by more than 3/10 hits.

Irrelevant. Pve doesn’t have that problem and we are calculating dps, not combat scenarios. That been said, even in competitive modes, you are not rooted, so follow them. If they dash/shadowstep away, melee autos are not any better in that regard.

Being interrupted is a much more realistic issue, otherwise, you are arguing this one skill is threatening enough that you can force people off-point, in which case, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

RabbitUp.8294:

Ezrael.6859:

You ran numbers based upon? People standing still on point?

The 3.25s cast time and huge animation means people gtfo before they’ve been hit by more than 3/10 hits.

Irrelevant. Pve doesn’t have that problem and we are calculating dps, not combat scenarios. That been said, even in competitive modes, you are not rooted, so follow them. If they dash/shadowstep away, melee autos are not any better in that regard.

Being interrupted is a much more realistic issue, otherwise, you are arguing this one skill is threatening enough that you can force people off-point, in which case, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Not irrelevant.

This is the heart of the issue with this game’s balance.

When it is balanced around players like yourself and static PvE encounters which offer little challenge beyond memorising a DPS chain.

Vs the other two PvP games modes which are far more fluid, unpredictable and movement based.

On a pvp standpoint apart from comparing weapon damages, I agree with Ezrael. I used to use Torch before HoT because #5 actually helped supported (to an extent) while also dealing respectable damages. Now I can’t use the offhand because there’s little benefit to cleanse classes who don’t need cleanses and I now need more defensive utilities to help against HoT’s power creep.

Ezrael.6859:

Not irrelevant.

This is the heart of the issue with this game’s balance.

When it is balanced around players like yourself and static PvE encounters which offer little challenge beyond memorising a DPS chain.

Vs the other two PvP games modes which are far more fluid, unpredictable and movement based.

Your scenario is fairly moot though. Cleansing Flame has more range than Sword or Mace autos. Scepter does have lower damage, but since its ranged it can land that damage more reliably in that case, and that’s a good, intuitive trade-off. If you have to interrupt Cleansing Flame to perform another action, you’d also have to interrupt whatever else you might be doing, so again, that’s a bit moot. I did dps comparisons because they’re more applicable to fluid situations.

Now if you use Saiyan’s argument, that Torch doesn’t offer enough defense for your needs, then that’s absolutely valid. However, you’ve got two good options that are designed to provide personal and group defense/support. The premier offensive option shouldn’t need to compete with those defensively to be useful.

Mikhael.2391:

I think torch5 converting 2 boons to burn would be the best.

This is a really great idea, guardian has little access to boon strip.

Cleansing Flame turning 2 boons into burns would be a good way to add some utility to this skill.

And also make up for the fact that we used to have a trait in Radiance that stripped boons on burn, but we lost it in the trait revamp.

Damage (10x): 1,090
Number of Targets: 3
Transform boons on your foes into Burning
Boons converted 2
Burning 1s, 3 stacks per boon converted

They just need to reduce the channeling time a little bit more to become trully viable.

If burning is the name of your game, then Whirling Wrath (greatsword 2) is actually better than Cleansing Flame when it comes to triggering VoJ. It can hit up to 14 times against a single target (7 hits + 7 projectiles), can hit more people in a group (5 max targets for WW vs 3 max targets for CF), has a lower cooldown (10s vs 15s so you’re applying more burn stacks in longer battles) and it’s much easier to hit multiple enemies with its wide aoe than it is to aim Cleansing Flame’s narrow cone over multiple enemies (unless they conveniently stand in a straight line for your sake).

In addition to that, WW is also a whirl finisher, so if you use it in a fire field, you can also release burning bolts for even more burning.

To put it plainly, hitting someone with a sword is better at applying burning than breathing a large torrent of fire over your enemies. Funny that…

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

If burning is the name of your game, then Whirling Wrath (greatsword 2) is actually better than Cleansing Flame when it comes to triggering VoJ. It can hit up to 14 times against a single target (7 hits + 7 projectiles), can hit more people in a group (5 max targets for WW vs 3 max targets for CF), has a lower cooldown (10s vs 15s so you’re applying more burn stacks in longer battles) and it’s much easier to hit multiple enemies with its wide aoe than it is to aim Cleansing Flame’s narrow cone over multiple enemies (unless they conveniently stand in a straight line for your sake).

In addition to that, WW is also a whirl finisher, so if you use it in a fire field, you can also release burning bolts for even more burning.

To put it plainly, hitting someone with a sword is better at applying burning than breathing a large torrent of fire over your enemies. Funny that…

That’s a good point, especially the whirl on burn field thing. I play a burn guardian scepter/torch and haven’t been using a second weapon for a while now; I think I’ll slap a greatsword on set #2 for Purging Flames synergy.

On torch 5: I like how it is, honestly. Scepter 2 + torch 5 decimates crowds on a condi-based VoJ build (especially those Skritt mobs that spawn from Wintersday boxes). Then again, I’m speaking from PvE experience only, so I don’t think there’s anything constructive I can say towards PvP concerning torch 5.

Yeah let’s work on the having a second weapon thing first..