Guild Wars 2

I need numbers on how much tougher is supposed to make me. I feel like I’m wearing rags in my exotic gear. Do I feel powerful with boons? No, I feel on par with boons and sub par without, but back to the topic.

Is thief/elementalist damage ignoring toughness?

What’s the deal?

100% of toughness is added to armor. The damage you take from any attack is determined using this formula:

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

So there’s no way to say that +X toughness = Y% reduction, but it’s safe to say that toughness always helps protect you. Condition damage is not reduced by armor. Having said that, being focused by a player under any circumstances will kill you quickly unless you pop the right skills/evade the right things.

Jonas.9716:

being focused by a player under any circumstances will kill you quickly unless you pop the right skills/evade the right things.

Thanks for the formula.

I’m really getting hit hard by dd ele and thieves particularly. They’re laying out well over 10k damage before I can do much. I thought toughness was supposed to mitigate this. Am I expecting too much from defensive stuff and just suck it up and get on the Berserker’s bandwagon? This class doesn’t seem to be great for damage output…

Any tips?

Svarty.8019:

Jonas.9716:

being focused by a player under any circumstances will kill you quickly unless you pop the right skills/evade the right things.

Thanks for the formula.

I’m really getting hit hard by dd ele and thieves particularly. They’re laying out well over 10k damage before I can do much. Any tips?

Dodge/Block.

If you make a D/D ele and play about 10 games of sPvP you will be able to easily see what combo they plan on using on you and dodge at least half the damage, leaving them on cooldowns for 10 seconds waiting for their attunements to recharge for damage.

Same with a thief.

The real issue you are going to have is that without some help, both of these classes will run away from you if the fight is not going their way.

Svarty.8019:

Jonas.9716:

being focused by a player under any circumstances will kill you quickly unless you pop the right skills/evade the right things.

Thanks for the formula.

I’m really getting hit hard by dd ele and thieves particularly. They’re laying out well over 10k damage before I can do much. I thought toughness was supposed to mitigate this. Am I expecting too much from defensive stuff and just suck it up and get on the Berserker’s bandwagon? This class doesn’t seem to be great for damage output…

Any tips?

Like the above post states, dodge the first big attacks, use GS 5 or Hammer 5, hit em hard, then when they try and run away use your gap closers, i.e. GS 3 or Hammer 3, 1h sword 2, or JI, blind, crush repeat. I find thieves and elementalists go down really fast.

D/D elementalists deal a good chunk of their damage from condition damage. In particular, there is one earth spell that makes spikes in a big area after a channel and will give you a lot of stacks of a strong bleed. If you avoid that, you take a lot less damage. Also, stay out of the fire as to not stack burning.

Against thieves, I rely on the Retaliation boon to do a lot of the work. Glass cannon thieves will kill themselves on it. I use GS and Binding Blade will hit thieves in stealth as long as they’re in range. Do that quick, pull them in, then use Whirling Wrath and that will help finish them off. GS symbol also grants retaliation, so drop it and sit in it to get the full 4 stacks initially.

Exedore.6320:

Against thieves, I rely on the Retaliation boon to do a lot of the work. Glass cannon thieves will kill themselves on it. I use GS and Binding Blade will hit thieves in stealth as long as they’re in range. Do that quick, pull them in, then use Whirling Wrath and that will help finish them off. GS symbol also grants retaliation, so drop it and sit in it to get the full 4 stacks initially.

I used to be able to survive using retaliation against thieves, but it feels as though there has been a stealth-nerf to toughness, this is the real reasoning behind my original post. Of course, I have no solid evidence, but over the past week I have felt a lot weaker than before.

Svarty.8019:

Exedore.6320:

Against thieves, I rely on the Retaliation boon to do a lot of the work. Glass cannon thieves will kill themselves on it. I use GS and Binding Blade will hit thieves in stealth as long as they’re in range. Do that quick, pull them in, then use Whirling Wrath and that will help finish them off. GS symbol also grants retaliation, so drop it and sit in it to get the full 4 stacks initially.

I used to be able to survive using retaliation against thieves, but it feels as though there has been a stealth-nerf to toughness, this is the real reasoning behind my original post. Of course, I have no solid evidence, but over the past week I have felt a lot weaker than before.

Either that or thiefs finding new boosts to dmg zzz.
4k steals and 5.5k heartseekers is not logical on 3500 armor!

Toughness reward is so mediocre i sometimes ask my self if its worth it at all lol.

That would explain how in sPVP one of my deaths had steal listed as the highest damage done to me. was rather confused on that.

Those 4k steals and 5.5k heartseekers would be hitting a lot harder without that Toughness. But…thieves do need some damage tweaks.

I get ripped apart in seconds by ranged.

Toughness seems to help a lot vs autoattacks but very little vs other abilities.

Kinda strange, but over the last week or so, I’ve been finding that I’ve had to UP Toughness just to stay alive…

Could it be the Vigor Nerf? Possibly.

But just in general, I feel i’m taking ~A LOT~ more damage than normal.

Thieves C&D / Steal / Backstab combo’s are stupid OP when they get it off: IE, when you’re worried about the other 2-3 people and don’t see the thief come in. Whhich is fine, that’s ‘thier thing’.

But 9k from stealth… on 3k+ Armor.. yeah. A little too much. For most of us, that’s over 50% of our health!

Do you see this A-Net… 50% of our health.

To answer your question, however (gets off soapbox)…

1) Dodging is critical (healing on dodge is super important: 450 +healin is a very nice place to be as it’ll give you about 650 health).
2) Protection… gotta have it on.
3) Blinking / Leaping / JI… use them defensively too. Dont’ always open w/ Leap/RoW + JI.

You can try Sigils of Energy + Food (the one that gives you passive 40% end regen), to help keep you up.

Svarty.8019:

I used to be able to survive using retaliation against thieves, but it feels as though there has been a stealth-nerf to toughness, this is the real reasoning behind my original post. Of course, I have no solid evidence, but over the past week I have felt a lot weaker than before.

I haven’t noticed any difference. There are a few good thieves that don’t die that way, but then there are just a ton of glass cannon thieves that do. Since they got nerfed, they may be finding better builds that you’re not used to. I have seen a few more bleed thieves lately.

Toughness works well-PvE, WvW, you name it. It’s very hard for a Guardian with lots of toughness to die 1 on 1 (of course, it may also be hard to kill your target depending on who they are/what they do/what your offense is.) Guardians have SO many tools to block quick burst damage, rendering these enemies’ initial burst rather useless, or at the very least, less effective. Pair that with lots of defense, it will be hard to kill you (of course, 5 vs 1 is another story.)

I am not saying Toughness is essential, but in a similar scenario, you would have probably died even faster with full Berserker gear. Berserker’s is more of a high risk/high reward approach that works, but can be dangerous.

As for steal, keep in mind that if the thief has Bountiful Theft and/or Thrill of the Crime, you’re in for a nasty surprise, as his attack steals your boon, gives him a daze skill to use, along with fury, might and swiftness.

If the boon stolen is “Protection”, you’re getting hit for 33% damage more than before… go figure.

Regarding toughness, nothing has changed for me.

Using hammer, great sword and JI, i find that i can kill almost any thief i see, or that tries to gank me. The secret is keeping them in one spot, and that is where Hammer 5 comes into play. If the thief is on you just hammer 5, followed by hammer 2 then great sword 2. if they are at range just throw JI at the start of that sequence. Very few thieves can survive that combo.

Just remember no amount of damage will save you if you don’t time you dodges and heals correctly.

Svarty.8019:

Exedore.6320:

Against thieves, I rely on the Retaliation boon to do a lot of the work. Glass cannon thieves will kill themselves on it. I use GS and Binding Blade will hit thieves in stealth as long as they’re in range. Do that quick, pull them in, then use Whirling Wrath and that will help finish them off. GS symbol also grants retaliation, so drop it and sit in it to get the full 4 stacks initially.

I used to be able to survive using retaliation against thieves, but it feels as though there has been a stealth-nerf to toughness, this is the real reasoning behind my original post. Of course, I have no solid evidence, but over the past week I have felt a lot weaker than before.

A few of my guildies and I are of the same opinion, If anyone has any info/data to support this i’d like to see it.. I’ve certainly had to be alot more cautious lately.

Svarty.8019:

Jonas.9716:

being focused by a player under any circumstances will kill you quickly unless you pop the right skills/evade the right things.

Thanks for the formula.

I’m really getting hit hard by dd ele and thieves particularly. They’re laying out well over 10k damage before I can do much. I thought toughness was supposed to mitigate this. Am I expecting too much from defensive stuff and just suck it up and get on the Berserker’s bandwagon? This class doesn’t seem to be great for damage output…

Any tips?

Get on the Berserker bandwagon. A lot of people aren’t aware of this (maybe because they didn’t play back in beta where guardian DPS was through the roof) but Guardians are actually one of the highest DPS classes in the game. I’d put them at second, just behind warriors, and possibly even ahead of warriors in some cases. Thief is actually on the lower end, DPS-wise.

A full stack of toughness (i.e. full Knights, +1200 or so) is only worth about 35% damage reduction and you start to get severely diminishing returns towards the end. If you really want toughness, you’re better off splitting your stats and only taking about 300-400 or so, which will give you the most bang for your buck, then using Signet of Judgment or some of the defensive traits (Strength in Numbers, Honorable Shield) if you really need the extra defense ever (hint: you won’t).

well thougness won’t make you invincible. I use scepter +focus / sword +shield
Scepter’s 2 will damage on area where you belive is the thief. Scepter 4 will blind the thief ( aoe blind doesen’t require target) . scepter 5 will absorb 3 attacks. Sword’s 2 will blind the thief ( aoe blind doesen’t require target), Shield 4 will aoe and add protection. Shield’s 5 will knock down the thief. With this weapon combo you can beat down an thief without using any utility . Remember when thief get near you, use the blind. Blind / aegis will block attacks preventing thief to stealth with cloack and dagger , he will be forced to retreat with stealth utility skill .
Hammer is too slow to beat down an thief he can weaken you with cloack and dagger every 3 seconds without taking an single hit from you, When he feel like he can burst you down he will do it. GS 5 and 3 are strong against thief, but he will probably dodge all other’s gs skills.

Does armor reduce damage from all attacks(besides condition) including magical missiles and such, a fireball for example?

Edenwolf.6328:

Does armor reduce damage from all attacks(besides condition) including magical missiles and such, a fireball for example?

I would assume your talking about the basic attacks from eles etc. My guess is yes. Its the conditions those attacks apply that will ignore your toughness stat.

Tyber Valens.5148:

Edenwolf.6328:

Does armor reduce damage from all attacks(besides condition) including magical missiles and such, a fireball for example?

I would assume your talking about the basic attacks from eles etc. My guess is yes. Its the conditions those attacks apply that will ignore your toughness stat.

I’m talking about all magic based attacks. In other games magic attacks are treated differently from physical damage.

Edenwolf.6328:

Tyber Valens.5148:

Edenwolf.6328:

Does armor reduce damage from all attacks(besides condition) including magical missiles and such, a fireball for example?

I would assume your talking about the basic attacks from eles etc. My guess is yes. Its the conditions those attacks apply that will ignore your toughness stat.

I’m talking about all magic based attacks. In other games magic attacks are treated differently from physical damage.

Ok look this combat system doesn’t use magic attacks and physical attacks. Read the following link http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

swiftpaw.6397:

Svarty.8019:

Exedore.6320:

Against thieves, I rely on the Retaliation boon to do a lot of the work. Glass cannon thieves will kill themselves on it. I use GS and Binding Blade will hit thieves in stealth as long as they’re in range. Do that quick, pull them in, then use Whirling Wrath and that will help finish them off. GS symbol also grants retaliation, so drop it and sit in it to get the full 4 stacks initially.

I used to be able to survive using retaliation against thieves, but it feels as though there has been a stealth-nerf to toughness, this is the real reasoning behind my original post. Of course, I have no solid evidence, but over the past week I have felt a lot weaker than before.

A few of my guildies and I are of the same opinion, If anyone has any info/data to support this i’d like to see it.. I’ve certainly had to be alot more cautious lately.

swiftpaw helped me to run some tests to see if toughness is working as it should be, and our conclusion is that everything is normal.

Here is a link to the results (may need to zoom once or twice to read text) https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_xmJrNwyBJMN0hpbFNPUXRwd2s