Guild Wars 2

So this past weekend I tried running a pure Dragon Hunter. Nothing but traps and Longbow. And of course occasionally switching to GS to #2 people in the face who walk into the traps. Here’s how it went down for me

Traps-Traps are beautiful. I personally think some of the numbers need a buff because there’s a few classes that can walk through them like they’re a rampaging warrior (this of course includes rampaging warriors). But the fact that I can set them and they don’t trigger until somebody walks into them gives me great initiation ability (assuming they are coming to me). I played stronghold and spammed all of them right on the choke point and guess who walked into them? -Everybody-. I will say however that the synergy with them and LB feels kinda odd. I would rather switch to my Greatsword to burst somebody who just got stuck in Dragons Maw rather than stand back and shoot them with the LB #2. Then again I really like pushing the offensive so maybe that’s just me.
MY ONLY PROBLEM WITH TRAPS is that they feel kind of spammy. I spend half my time in a fight casting those things when I should be using weapon skills it feels. Power and CD should both get increased

Longbow- The longbow was great. Yeah I wasn’t slaying people left and right with it but I would by fibbing if I said it didn’t serve its purpose. Its #5 royaly messed with people. I didn’t get much use out of the #3 but I only had a couple days to play with it. The symbol was legit. People will gladly step around unfriendly AoEs…aaaand right into my traps. I will say the overall damage felt a bit low when I was running berserker amulet. I know its ranged and all but people really didn’t react to it the same way they react to a Ranger LB (With running, and popping defense spells, and panic). Using it in group fights was effective but one on one people seemed way to comfortable going toe to toe with me.

Traits- Hunters fortification beats the pants off of Heavy Light. Seriously. I’d take it 10 outa 10 times. I tried using heavy light at first and barely noticed it. by the time somebody was that close to me I was getting ready to switch to melee anyways. Its a CC trait that’s being used as a self defense trait. Which Hunters fortification is great self defense that’s being used for group defense. Its just a no brainer. Now if I could shoot somebody from a ways off and knock them down, that would be useful. But as it is right now if I see somebody in a fight, than hopping over with my F2 is going to save them, not me running up going “Wait for me ill help you” and then getting point black to the other guy just so I can shoot him in the face and knock him over.

Edit. Some more stuff

Backline support- Supporting with the LB was helpful but people constantly ignored me. They would rather focus down the person they were fighting and then turn to fight me rather then decide I was a threat and break off after me. Pressure on the longbow is really a must because it’s not like the traps can help with that. I felt like I really had to get in close to support people with my virtues and traps(using them like they were wells) instead of just hanging back and scaring people with my dps (This will resolve itself with virtues and LB balancing Im sure)

Defense only- Dragon hunter despite its name was extremely defensive. Traps and the LB were great when fighting on a point, but chasing somebody down? Bleh. Not enough cripple. My attacks would root me. And my traps can be run out of if I’m trying to chase somebody down with them. I think this may have been why people didn’t focus me as much. They did not fear not being able to disengage.

More on traps- Here’s a few ways people countered my traps.
1,Sending their pet into them
2.Sending their minion into them
3.Dodging
4.Death Shroud
5.Any kind of auto procing invuln.

And yes I still used them, ya know why? Because they worked. Duh. The traps have plenty of “issues”, but none of those issues are the fact that they are traps. People should practice with them more

P.S. THANKS FOR THE TRAPS ANET

P.P.S. Haters gona hate

Who will walk into your traps? Warrior can boot you off, Thieves can shadowstep and destroy you in a few hits, Mesmer has the clones, Necro has minions, D/D Ele will destroy you, Guardians can TP and burst you down pretty easily, Ranger can kite you and has the pet to nail your traps, Engis has turrets, Rev has everything…

He already said who walks into traps. Some of your examples don’t make sense … For example, a thief isn’t going to shadowstep around a trap they can’t see and just because Mesmers have clones and Engi’s have turrets doesn’t mean they avoid traps either.

I mean, go ahead and hate on traps, but you’re argue who’s affected by traps with someone who had success using them? That’s obtuse. I urge people to make some sense if they are going to dispute things that are wrong with traps. Traps aren’t going away, so you’re approach should be how to make them better, not make them irrelevant. If you can’t do that, you post means nothing.

Traps don’t synergize well with longbow, true.
On the other hand, in pvp is quite scary to jump on a Hammer Guardian that has Dragon’s Maw and 2 other traps under his/her butt.

Silhouette.5631:

So this past weekend I tried running a pure Dragon Hunter. Nothing but traps and Longbow. And of course occasionally switching to GS to #2 people in the face who walk into the traps. Here’s how it went down for me

Traps-Traps are beautiful. I personally think some of the numbers need a buff because there’s a few classes that can walk through them like they’re a rampaging warrior (this of course includes rampaging warriors). But the fact that I can set them and they don’t trigger until somebody walks into them gives me great initiation ability (assuming they are coming to me). I played stronghold and spammed all of them right on the choke point and guess who walked into them? -Everybody-. I will say however that the synergy with them and LB feels kinda odd. I would rather switch to my Greatsword to burst somebody who just got stuck in Dragons Maw rather than stand back and shoot them with the LB #2. Then again I really like pushing the offensive so maybe that’s just me.
MY ONLY PROBLEM WITH TRAPS is that they feel kind of spammy. I spend half my time in a fight casting those things when I should be using weapon skills it feels. Power and CD should both get increased

Longbow- The longbow was great. Yeah I wasn’t slaying people left and right with it but I would by fibbing if I said it didn’t serve its purpose. Its #5 royaly messed with people. I didn’t get much use out of the #3 but I only had a couple days to play with it. The symbol was legit. People will gladly step around unfriendly AoEs…aaaand right into my traps. I will say the overall damage felt a bit low when I was running berserker amulet. I know its ranged and all but people really didn’t react to it the same way they react to a Ranger LB (With running, and popping defense spells, and panic). Using it in group fights was effective but one on one people seemed way to comfortable going toe to toe with me.

Traits- Hunters fortification beats the pants off of Heavy Light. Seriously. I’d take it 10 outa 10 times. I tried using heavy light at first and barely noticed it. by the time somebody was that close to me I was getting ready to switch to melee anyways. Its a CC trait that’s being used as a self defense trait. Which Hunters fortification is great self defense that’s being used for group defense. Its just a no brainer. Now if I could shoot somebody from a ways off and knock them down, that would be useful. But as it is right now if I see somebody in a fight, than hopping over with my F2 is going to save them, not me running up going “Wait for me ill help you” and then getting point black to the other guy just so I can shoot him in the face and knock him over.

No offense bro but seems to me like you were playing complete scrubs

Only bads will talk into your weak kitten traps. If i see you lay a trap i would simply DODGE INTO IT.

Do you understand this simple notion? you can set all 4 traps in a corner and a single dodge/evade frame will simply null all 4 and leave you with bow/GS autos and all utility and elite on cooldown.

Its great that you are liking traps but any REMOTELY skilled opponent will negate them EASILY.

And don’t get me started into the longbow..its a joke. Even Sword is far far superior to longbow.

Silhouette.5631:

So this past weekend I tried running a pure Dragon Hunter. Nothing but traps and Longbow. And of course occasionally switching to GS to #2 people in the face who walk into the traps. Here’s how it went down for me

Traps-Traps are beautiful. I personally think some of the numbers need a buff because there’s a few classes that can walk through them like they’re a rampaging warrior (this of course includes rampaging warriors). But the fact that I can set them and they don’t trigger until somebody walks into them gives me great initiation ability (assuming they are coming to me). I played stronghold and spammed all of them right on the choke point and guess who walked into them? -Everybody-. I will say however that the synergy with them and LB feels kinda odd. I would rather switch to my Greatsword to burst somebody who just got stuck in Dragons Maw rather than stand back and shoot them with the LB #2. Then again I really like pushing the offensive so maybe that’s just me.
MY ONLY PROBLEM WITH TRAPS is that they feel kind of spammy. I spend half my time in a fight casting those things when I should be using weapon skills it feels. Power and CD should both get increased

Longbow- The longbow was great. Yeah I wasn’t slaying people left and right with it but I would by fibbing if I said it didn’t serve its purpose. Its #5 royaly messed with people. I didn’t get much use out of the #3 but I only had a couple days to play with it. The symbol was legit. People will gladly step around unfriendly AoEs…aaaand right into my traps. I will say the overall damage felt a bit low when I was running berserker amulet. I know its ranged and all but people really didn’t react to it the same way they react to a Ranger LB (With running, and popping defense spells, and panic). Using it in group fights was effective but one on one people seemed way to comfortable going toe to toe with me.

Traits- Hunters fortification beats the pants off of Heavy Light. Seriously. I’d take it 10 outa 10 times. I tried using heavy light at first and barely noticed it. by the time somebody was that close to me I was getting ready to switch to melee anyways. Its a CC trait that’s being used as a self defense trait. Which Hunters fortification is great self defense that’s being used for group defense. Its just a no brainer. Now if I could shoot somebody from a ways off and knock them down, that would be useful. But as it is right now if I see somebody in a fight, than hopping over with my F2 is going to save them, not me running up going “Wait for me ill help you” and then getting point black to the other guy just so I can shoot him in the face and knock him over.

That’s nice, but wil be better, if you loggin and try all this in game.
Traps – useless, this is a fact.
Longbow, low dmg, low speed, 2 root skills.
Almost all DH trais have no synergy with weapons, pyre of sight for example.

Yes, because you can see every single time a guardian sets down their trap. Because only scrubs cannot see invisible traps on a map where line of sight of pretty controlled. Yes, please tell us how your epic skill can not only negate all 4 invisible traps that have conveniently been placed on top of each other, but also put every GS and LB skill on cooldown. Please teach all the scrubs how you do it.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Yes, because you can see every single time a guardian sets down their trap. Because only scrubs cannot see invisible traps on a map where line of sight of pretty controlled. Yes, please tell us how your epic skill can not only negate all 4 invisible traps that have conveniently been placed on top of each other, but also put every GS and LB skill on cooldown. Please teach all the scrubs how you do it.

I don’t know whether you are delusional, playing devils advocate, or have this innate dislike for the guardian class.

Traps are a joke because you can counter them by evading, end of story.

You WILL see where the trap goes because the dragonhunter will HAVE to place the trap when he starts to see you charge, otherwise he would have just wasted an utility slot.

Not to mention stability > dragon maw and dodge > rest of the traps.
Even ranger traps are deadlier i find because of the condi spam and pressure.

You walk into ranger traps? Either have mass condi remova + a stun breaker or you die
You walk into a guard trap? Dodge and you are fine

Do you see the problem with this?

And i don’t care how skilled you are with your guardian, if you have 0 utilities and a crappy longbow there is no way in hell you stand a chance vs ANY class right now

Hunter.4783:

No offense bro but seems to me like you were playing complete scrubs

Only bads will talk into your weak kitten traps. If i see you lay a trap i would simply DODGE INTO IT.

Ya you kinda have to have them there before hand, Bluntly standing right on top of your traps with a big red flag that says “TRAPS HERE” doesn’t always work. But that’s the point of traps. You put them where people don’t expect them. Plenty of good players walked into them. And I know they were good players because they managed to get out of them and high tail it before I could wipe the floor with them.

IMA REPEAT THIS IN CAPS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. TRAPS ARE NOT WELLS. THEY ARE A DEFENSIVE UTILITY. YOU HAVE THEM PLACED BEFORE HAND LIKE A SMART PERSON. PLEASE PRACTICE WITH THEM. THEY ARE NOT THE BEST FOR 1V1 OFFENSE. THEY ARE GOOD FOR TEAMFIGHTS. THEY ARE GREAT FOR DEFENSE. THANK YOU THAT IS ALL

Silhouette.5631:

Hunter.4783:

No offense bro but seems to me like you were playing complete scrubs

Only bads will talk into your weak kitten traps. If i see you lay a trap i would simply DODGE INTO IT.

Ya you kinda have to have them there before hand, Bluntly standing right on top of your traps with a big red flag that says “TRAPS HERE” doesn’t always work. But that’s the point of traps. You put them where people don’t expect them. Plenty of good players walked into them. And I know they were good players because they managed to get out of them and high tail it before I could wipe the floor with them.

IMA REPEAT THIS IN CAPS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. TRAPS ARE NOT WELLS. THEY ARE A DEFENSIVE UTILITY. YOU HAVE THEM PLACED BEFORE HAND LIKE A SMART PERSON. PLEASE PRACTICE WITH THEM. THEY ARE NOT THE BEST FOR 1V1 OFFENSE. THEY ARE GOOD FOR TEAMFIGHTS. THEY ARE GREAT FOR DEFENSE. THANK YOU THAT IS ALL

They’re still bad, because you have no stability if you go full traps, it’s better to just go anything else because you’re actually useful for others and not selfish…

Traps are far from a selfish utility. I actually found that they worked best in team fights. Half because some are aoe and half because nobody had the time to step around them when fireballs were flying everywhere. I should also mention that I was running virtue and honor line. Honor for the Vit and virtues for, you guessed it, the stability.

If you are using traps then you are a complete scrub….end of story.

Sauncho.8076:

If you are using traps then you are a complete scrub….end of story.

On the contrary my fellow valuable player. I found there were many skillful ways these traps could be used. While I myself didn’t draw much aggro (because who wants to attack a crunchy guardian?) I was able to determine which ones of my teammates did. In one instance I decided to drop a Dragons Maw on top of a Mesmer on my team as I was running by. Not a second later some poor thief decided to shadow step in for a quick take down. Hes dead. Also since everybody thought I was “just a dragon hunter” some of the times they would leave me unharassed a I LITTERED their escape route with traps. Switched to GS and ran into the fight. And they decided to kite me. And sometimes they died. Sometimes they got away. But either way I still got that juicy supply in the middle

Traps are fun, but will never be near any meta nor used more than spirit weapons.

They are fun, but not useful.

Traps could be good if they give some kind of buff or heal to you or remove conditions. (it need…using a trap giving you something + lower cd of it)
(because with it you dont have any condi removal except F2 so fighting trap thief or ranger, or condi builds is a death sentence to you).

Condi removal. A problem. On the guardian….why I never

Hunter.4783:

I don’t know whether you are delusional, playing devils advocate, or have this innate dislike for the guardian class.

Traps are a joke because you can counter them by evading, end of story.

Maybe I’ve missed something … How do you evade something you can’t see? Being serious here. Do you just randomly evade everywhere and hope you just get lucky? is the argument that if you can randomly evade a trap you can’t see, they are bad? Does that mean any other effect you can evade is bad as well? Does that make every weapon skill that has a tell even worse? See how your simple assessment of traps makes no sense?

Well alot of people try placing the traps AFTER the fights already started but BEFORE the first attack is swung. So they basicly set it infront of the person and go “HAHA YOU CANNOT DODGE” and the persons lke “Yeah im just gona dodge that”

…Its really not the best way to use traps

Silhouette.5631:

Well alot of people try placing the traps AFTER the fights already started but BEFORE the first attack is swung. So they basicly set it infront of the person and go “HAHA YOU CANNOT DODGE” and the persons lke “Yeah im just gona dodge that”

…Its really not the best way to use traps

Yes true … so really the argument is traps are bad because people don’t use them properly.

Amineo.8951:

Silhouette.5631:

Hunter.4783:

No offense bro but seems to me like you were playing complete scrubs

Only bads will talk into your weak kitten traps. If i see you lay a trap i would simply DODGE INTO IT.

Ya you kinda have to have them there before hand, Bluntly standing right on top of your traps with a big red flag that says “TRAPS HERE” doesn’t always work. But that’s the point of traps. You put them where people don’t expect them. Plenty of good players walked into them. And I know they were good players because they managed to get out of them and high tail it before I could wipe the floor with them.

IMA REPEAT THIS IN CAPS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. TRAPS ARE NOT WELLS. THEY ARE A DEFENSIVE UTILITY. YOU HAVE THEM PLACED BEFORE HAND LIKE A SMART PERSON. PLEASE PRACTICE WITH THEM. THEY ARE NOT THE BEST FOR 1V1 OFFENSE. THEY ARE GOOD FOR TEAMFIGHTS. THEY ARE GREAT FOR DEFENSE. THANK YOU THAT IS ALL

They’re still bad, because you have no stability if you go full traps, it’s better to just go anything else because you’re actually useful for others and not selfish…

I see how some PVE meta mentality has poisoned PVP minds now. “If you don’t play THIS way, you’re selfish!!!” Don’t embarrass yourself by doing that.

If you don’t have stability if you go full traps, don’t make garbage builds that have full traps. Traps aren’t bad because you can think of extreme ways to make builds with them that lack this or that.

And yes I still used them, ya know why? Because they worked. Duh. The traps have plenty of “issues”, but none of those issues are the fact that they are traps. People should practice with them more.

Please tell me you are joking.
This has nothing to do with “lack of practice”.
Traps are 100% useless. Complete garbage.

Uh, no, traps are selfish because they’re essentially just there to discourage an advance on you. It does kitten all for your allies; it has nothing to do with a PvE mentality. Contrast them with consecrations.

Dragon’s Maw is okay if one’s opponent is out of stability, but I don’t believe it’s worth taking over any of the other elites (except perhaps Signet of Courage).
Most of the traps are persistent effects so dodging out of them won’t render them completely useless, but the traps themselves aren’t all that impressive, and they don’t offer any support or cleansing. Overall I think they’re about as impressive as the rest of the spec.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Uh, no, traps are selfish because they’re essentially just there to discourage an advance on you. It does kitten all for your allies; it has nothing to do with a PvE mentality. Contrast them with consecrations.

I think that’s an inaccurate statement. They are selfish because they don’t offer anything to your allies? I think someone needs to read what they do again. Discouraging advance on you isn’t as selfish a tactic as it sounds.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Dragon’s Maw is okay if one’s opponent is out of stability, but I don’t believe it’s worth taking over any of the other elites (except perhaps Signet of Courage).
Most of the traps are persistent effects so dodging out of them won’t render them completely useless, but the traps themselves aren’t all that impressive, and they don’t offer any support or cleansing.

This is true; they don’t offer as much support or cleansing as other skills; they aren’t supposed to. It’s exactly what we were to expect since we were told LONG ago that the elite specs and their tools were going to give us a completely different way to play each profession. If anyone thought that meant MORE or even ANY support and cleansing on a Guardian, they weren’t paying much attention.

Fashion Mage. Vulnerability is support. CC from Dragons Maw is support. Aegis is support. Check those trap effects again.

Also just because of your name I think it would be good to mention that Im probably ALOT better dressed than you

@Silhouette: I just want to say, your original post and various replies have given me many smiles and laughs. Thank you. I entirely support you and your use of, success with, and excitement for the Dragonhunter specialization. To be perfectly honest, I’ve been pretty excited about the idea of it, although there are a good number of practical and aesthetic issues that leave me rather disappointed (at the moment) with its current implementation.

However, the fact that you actually used not one or two, but the full array of traps, all at once, in PvP, and used them the right way, makes me very happy, indeed. Even you, though, have to admit that they and the LB could use some buffs, that the LB could use a good bit of aesthetic (and some practical) adjustment to make it feel more exciting and powerful, and that the trait system, on the whole, could use quite a bit of work (especially the minors). But since you enjoyed things so much, please, by all means, go check out some of my and others’ suggestion posts on the BWE feedback threads and add your voice to whatever changes you think make sense and would be fun and fitting for the class. We desperately need some more happy and uplifting voices of reason that will take the DH and its skills for what they are meant to be, and then offer appropriate feedback regarding how to make them fit and perform that job better.

Edit: Also, @Fashion Mage and others complaining about lack of support: Two things — first, half the point of DH is to make it so that “support” is not the only way to play Guardian. Second, and much more importantly, controlling areas and annihilating enemies is totally support. Preventing advance, slowing retreat, area denial, or even outright killing enemies all “support” your allies. If Dragonhunter and traps can reach a point where they do that job and do it well, they will be fantastic and fun for those who can enjoy that playstyle.

I was actually thinking, they could achieve a unique play style with Dragonhunter if they do 2 things. Make Long Bow more damaging but slower (essentially make it difficult to use against a freely moving target up close but extremely potent against a disabled target), but at the same time make traps a disabling and zoning tool rather than a damaging tool.

For example, add a 1 sec knockback to Procession of Blades. As is procession of blades simply does damage which can be mitigated. If you add a knockback to it though, people will avoid it like the plague and Dragonhunters can use it to set up combos with the long bow.

The philosophy here is basically that you create an area with the traps which directs your enemy(s) in a certain manner, and you destroy them with your longbow. Also with Spear of Justice, perhaps if your enemy ran out of it’s range while they had it on them, it would cause a knock down.

Essentially treat the Dragonhunter like a Hunter rather than a Paladin/Monk style of class.

Obtena, are you defending traps just to defend traps, or are you really excited about them. I ask because I just don’t see how anyone can be excited about dragonhunter. From the name, to the traitline, to the bow, to me it’s all been a hot mess. Of course you can get anything to work in very specific circumstances, however that does not mean traps are mostly effective, and more importantly fun to play.

I do appreciate your optimism however, but I lost hope about 1 1/2 years ago as most of the guardian QOL issues have not been addressed. Seems to me most of the dev focus has been on Rev, and we were left with this abomination (that’s just my opinion though).

Been playing DH in both BWE and I did notice something fundamentally wrong with it. First, to be able to make the most use of it, you have to go zerk to be truly effective. With the attacks being very slow, you need to make each shot count thus making Zerk gear pretty much mandatory.
With that said, the most effective way to play the class is to kite. With your virtues getting cast times and your traps having cast times, for fast paced fights you really must move and kite or get your face bashed in. Considering we have a very low health pool, this further adds to the problem. Here’s the kicker, once you start to kite, Longbow2 and longbow5 are now useless since they root you. Longbow3 is a utility anti projectile and longbow 4 with the burns being removed and ground targeted wont do anything to stop an enemy rampaging towards you. Even if you caught him with all your traps, which he would undoubtedly escape anyway, this leaves you 2 things to fight him with, longbow1 and the knockback trait that you MUST have to be effective.
Overall bad design if you ask me. It’s relagated to becoming a pewpew machine, if any attention is paid the dragonhunter during combat, a prayer to all the 6 gods is your only recourse.

ThePaladin.2140:

Been playing DH in both BWE and I did notice something fundamentally wrong with it. First, to be able to make the most use of it, you have to go zerk to be truly effective. With the attacks being very slow, you need to make each shot count thus making Zerk gear pretty much mandatory.
With that said, the most effective way to play the class is to kite. With your virtues getting cast times and your traps having cast times, for fast paced fights you really must move and kite or get your face bashed in. Considering we have a very low health pool, this further adds to the problem. Here’s the kicker, once you start to kite, Longbow2 and longbow5 are now useless since they root you. Longbow3 is a utility anti projectile and longbow 4 with the burns being removed and ground targeted wont do anything to stop an enemy rampaging towards you. Even if you caught him with all your traps, which he would undoubtedly escape anyway, this leaves you 2 things to fight him with, longbow1 and the knockback trait that you MUST have to be effective.
Overall bad design if you ask me. It’s relagated to becoming a pewpew machine, if any attention is paid the dragonhunter during combat, a prayer to all the 6 gods is your only recourse.

One thread per post is plenty. You don’t need to copy and paste the same message across the board.

ThePaladin.2140:

snip

I think its gret that you see your opinion so valuable that you post the exact words in two threads at once.

reading all these exaggerting rants and whiny posts made me come to the conclusion that some of you might think that the more and louder you cry you get more stuff… worked the first time eh?

I am on the same page that there are strange in incoherrent choices that could have been better calls. I even think that at the moment any build I come up with does not need the LB and i rather would use a staff or scepter for range – which says a lot.

But the constant “its all bullkitten” is just not gonna help anyone.

I played DH on the weekend and its by no means all garbage to a point where you can not have fun with this elite spec even without the announced changes which will make it kitten good.

hunters fortification is the best example. A whole lot are saying this is not a good GM trait. This build for example:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApdTnsABNditCBmCBEEhF/hCbEehfQO8X/23KAqg6E-TFiFABLq+jBnCghV+l9DAwKlgAcEA8e/B30HQKAIWWB-w

Even if I ignore pure of voice – you will have 16 additional conditions removed over the course of just one minute.

But no the trait is garbage and not helping at all or enough … because it does not clear 3 condis at once and goes on CD for 40 secs.

traps are plain kitten because no one walks in them… oh .. my…. god. this is just the worst arguemnt ever. there is no pvp map without extremely good choke points to place them. you have to go through them. If you dumb enough to let you enemy see you placing them well what can I say… you really dont understand how a trap works.

I think more constructive feedback – which is there – would be the better choice from now on.

Asmodal.6489:

traps are plain kitten because no one walks in them… oh .. my…. god. this is just the worst arguemnt ever. there is no pvp map without extremely good choke points to place them. you have to go through them. If you dumb enough to let you enemy see you placing them well what can I say… you really dont understand how a trap works.

I think more constructive feedback – which is there – would be the better choice from now on.

Sorry, but no. Traps can literally be rendered useless by an evade or blink. Sure, you can place them ahead of time — But when your enemy avoids them, you’ll be left with no utilities to use. On the other hand, if you try to place them down in combat, the enemy will see where you placed it, and especially if they have a ranged weapon they can easily use that 1s of activation time to pummel you with DPS or CC. In either case, the trap does not do its job and you’ll have effectively wasted your utility skills, which for a Guardian particularly also means you’ll have no sustain.

Traps have an incredibly low skill threshold in this game due to the highly mobile combat system. Every skill slot you take a trap in essentially becomes a wasted slot against a skilled player, because they will outmaneuver you and you will be left with nothing. This has been very clearly outlined by the distinct lack of trap builds being prevalent in the meta for any game mode. We already have trap access on two classes, and neither of those two classes use a single one in any meta compositions. The pacing is just too quick for any sort of delayed action skills to be effective without heavy amounts of CC, which Guardians simply don’t have.

Furthermore, this game’s combat system has a strong emphasis on timing skills properly for maximum reward. When you set and forget a trap, this facet of strategy is completely thrown out the window, because you are no longer timing your skill. You are placing it on the ground and hoping that your enemy is unskilled enough to not only trigger them, but also fail to react to them. Active defense makes it incredibly easy to reactively avoid big hits for players that can time it well enough, meaning that they can use proper timing to best you, and you won’t be able to do the same back to them because you relied on your traps instead of your own skill.

Want more proof of how unreliable traps are? They can be triggered by any enemy unit that touches them. Fighting a Mesmer? Good luck, not only can they blink and teleport but their clones will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting a Ranger? Good luck, their bow is much more powerful in a 1v1 and their pet will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting a Necro? Good luck, they’ll have minions that will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting an Engineer? Good luck, whatever those drones the Forge is getting will probably tank your traps and then you will be dead. Hell, even a Spirit Weapon Guardian will have an advantage over you. By placing a trap, you are almost literally placing your faith in a single spot of terrain and hoping that the first thing that touches it is your actual target. The reality is that that just isn’t going to happen nearly as often as you might think it will.

You wanted more arguments that traps are bad? There, now you have them. But by all means, if you want to use them anyway, go ahead. The rest of us will just be busy NOT falling for them and killing you instead. Meanwhile, my only constructive feedback is that traps be reworked to the point where they’re “not traplike” again, because the moment Anet decided to make such a change they effectively destroyed any chance traps had at being competitive.

Asmodal.6489:

But no the trait is garbage and not helping at all or enough … because it does not clear 3 condis at once and goes on CD for 40 secs.

traps are plain kitten because no one walks in them… oh .. my…. god. this is just the worst arguemnt ever. there is no pvp map without extremely good choke points to place them. you have to go through them. If you dumb enough to let you enemy see you placing them well what can I say… you really dont understand how a trap works.

I think more constructive feedback – which is there – would be the better choice from now on.

Hah, agreed. The updated, clear-a-condi-on-block version of Hunter’s Fortification that Karl posted a while back is definitely a move in the right direction, as are a few other things. Daze on trap activation will probably turn out to be very powerful, since large stacks of stability (or pulsing stab) will now be necessary to make it out of a stack of traps that includes Dragon’s Maw, and the new Zealot’s Aggression (“Justice’s passive effect also applies Cripple”) finally offers the DH frequent, non-weapon-specific, access to cripple (one of it’s core new mechanics, and something necessary for the spec. to work as intended). My only problem with most of those is that I still think they are placed wrong in the trait line, and we’re missing a couple other necessary/helpful traits.

Considering we’re supposed to be a damage and control-based specialization, and also considering that DH does not give much extra access to block (and has none of its own condi removal) within it’s own traits/skills, Hunter’s Fortification really just doesn’t deserve to be in a GM slot — esp. since the -10% damage thing is just boring and useless. Drop that, merge the condi-clear with Bulwark (which is also otherwise weak and boring), and we’ve got a great Master trait, synergistic access to condi clear, and room for a better and more fitting Grandmaster -- something like swiftness and condi clear on trap placement + quickness on trap activation, or traps spawn symbols, or whatever — something that fits the specialization’s concept better than an obviously defensive trait. Zealot’s Aggression, likewise, really should have the GM Minor slot that Pure of Sight currently occupies. Etc… But I’ve already posted most of that elsewhere.

Anyway, agreed on the constructive criticism, and on the fact that people are just not using traps the right way. Admittedly, however, that is sometimes difficult to do, given the fast pace and movement-oriented approach of the game. And in PvE, I’m a little concerned that they actually encourage corner stacking/pulling, rather than more active and exciting play. Still, I always liked my Ranger’s traps, and if DH is fixed up nicely, I could learn to love these, as well.

I do not envy Anet right now. This irrational hatred for traps, a hatred that appears to be devoid of all reason, logic, and legitimate feedback, seems to be derailing nearly every discussion of the DH. If all you have to contribute is “traps are bad – fact” then you’re not helping. You sound really silly when you say this in response to a thread about how they worked well for a player. Your feedback can and should be immediately ignored.

If you’re responding with “must have been against scrubs” you’re moving the goalposts by using a ‘no true scotsman’ argument as the basis for your response. It’s a logical fallacy and your opinion will be rightfully ignored.

Commenting about how you ‘cannot believe somebody would be excited about dragonhunter’ doesn’t help. That isn’t feedback. Attacking the messenger because you don’t like the message is idiotic. This tendency to try and shout down people who actually like the playstyle the DH has is the wrong way to go about it. Not everyone is going to like the Elite specs their class gets. That’s totally okay. Shouting down those who do like it isn’t okay.

You’re not helping yourself, you’re not helping Anet, and you’re definitely not helping your fellow guardians. Digging through the kittenstorm of posts on DH for actual, useful, actionable feedback is difficult enough already. Stop adding to it.

Lemondish.3268:

I do not envy Anet right now. This irrational hatred for traps, a hatred that appears to be devoid of all reason, logic, and legitimate feedback, seems to be derailing nearly every discussion of the DH. If all you have to contribute is “traps are bad – fact” then you’re not helping. You sound really silly when you say this in response to a thread about how they worked well for a player. Your feedback can and should be immediately ignored.

If you’re responding with “must have been against scrubs” you’re moving the goalposts by using a ‘no true scotsman’ argument as the basis for your response. It’s a logical fallacy and your opinion will be rightfully ignored.

Commenting about how you ‘cannot believe somebody would be excited about dragonhunter’ doesn’t help. That isn’t feedback. Attacking the messenger because you don’t like the message is idiotic. This tendency to try and shout down people who actually like the playstyle the DH has is the wrong way to go about it. Not everyone is going to like the Elite specs their class gets. That’s totally okay. Shouting down those who do like it isn’t okay.

You’re not helping yourself, you’re not helping Anet, and you’re definitely not helping your fellow guardians. Digging through the kittenstorm of posts on DH for actual, useful, actionable feedback is difficult enough already. Stop adding to it.

All people playing Guardian for 2 years or more said that traps were bad and DH sucks, they have done everything in this game, and know much better than newer guardians, so it’s true and by no means hate, we just want something different and fun to play, not ‘’Imma AFK and throw the dice to see if this guy’s dumb or not’’….

Oh and btw, Traps ARE BAD!

Amineo.8951:

All people playing Guardian for 2 years or more said that traps were bad and DH sucks, they have done everything in this game, and know much better than newer guardians, so it’s true and by no means hate, we just want something different and fun to play, not ‘’Imma AFK and throw the dice to see if this guy’s dumb or not’’….

Oh and btw, Traps ARE BAD!

Sorry to disappoint, but I’ve liked my Ranger’s traps since pre-release more than three years ago, have most recently run a trapper build on my Ranger in PvP, with considerable success, and, while traps would not have been my first choice for a Guardian elite spec, I have been playing my Guardian for nearly three years now (my second-most-played class, by far) and I don’t really have a problem with traps as such. If everything is fixed, buffed, tuned, and so on to the point that it needs to be, I will be quite happily running around with a Dragonhunter in the open world, dungeons, and even PvP — especially Stronghold.

So no, not “every Guardian playing for 2 years or more” has said that traps are awful.

RebornbyFire.7913:

Amineo.8951:

All people playing Guardian for 2 years or more said that traps were bad and DH sucks, they have done everything in this game, and know much better than newer guardians, so it’s true and by no means hate, we just want something different and fun to play, not ‘’Imma AFK and throw the dice to see if this guy’s dumb or not’’….

Oh and btw, Traps ARE BAD!

Sorry to disappoint, but I’ve liked my Ranger’s traps since pre-release more than three years ago, have most recently run a trapper build on my Ranger in PvP, with considerable success, and, while traps would not have been my first choice for a Guardian elite spec, I have been playing my Guardian for nearly three years now (my second-most-played class, by far) and I don’t really have a problem with traps as such. If everything is fixed, buffed, tuned, and so on to the point that it needs to be, I will be quite happily running around with a Dragonhunter in the open world, dungeons, and even PvP — especially Stronghold.

So no, not “every Guardian playing for 2 years or more” has said that traps are awful.

Dragon Hunter traps*, Thieves and Ranger can make good uses on traps like conditions or runes of the trapper for stealth…

Black Box.9312:

Sorry, but no. Traps can literally be rendered useless by an evade or blink.

That is true for any skill in the game.

Black Box.9312:

Sure, you can place them ahead of time — But when your enemy avoids them, you’ll be left with no utilities to use. On the other hand, if you try to place them down in combat, the enemy will see where you placed it, and especially if they have a ranged weapon they can easily use that 1s of activation time to pummel you with DPS or CC. In either case, the trap does not do its job and you’ll have effectively wasted your utility skills, which for a Guardian particularly also means you’ll have no sustain.

That is true as well and the downside of traps. no doubt about it.

Black Box.9312:

Traps have an incredibly low skill threshold in this game due to the highly mobile combat system. Every skill slot you take a trap in essentially becomes a wasted slot against a skilled player, because they will outmaneuver you and you will be left with nothing.

This applies only when you are actually going 1on1 with an enemy which currently applies only to one gamemode: pvp

Black Box.9312:

This has been very clearly outlined by the distinct lack of trap builds being prevalent in the meta for any game mode. We already have trap access on two classes, and neither of those two classes use a single one in any meta compositions. The pacing is just too quick for any sort of delayed action skills to be effective without heavy amounts of CC, which Guardians simply don’t have.

So we are indeed talking exclusivly about the pvp meta. I am not trying to put you on the spot because you are one of the few that often enough refers to this but the majority is generalizing the issues.

Black Box.9312:

Furthermore, this game’s combat system has a strong emphasis on timing skills properly for maximum reward. When you set and forget a trap, this facet of strategy is completely thrown out the window, because you are no longer timing your skill. You are placing it on the ground and hoping that your enemy is unskilled enough to not only trigger them, but also fail to react to them. Active defense makes it incredibly easy to reactively avoid big hits for players that can time it well enough, meaning that they can use proper timing to best you, and you won’t be able to do the same back to them because you relied on your traps instead of your own skill.

Maybe the skill is to not let this happen? An Assuming that you are facing pro players 100% of the time is again soemthing taht only applies to pvp and even there 80% of the games population will not have this issue.

Black Box.9312:

Want more proof of how unreliable traps are? They can be triggered by any enemy unit that touches them. Fighting a Mesmer? Good luck, not only can they blink and teleport but their clones will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting a Ranger? Good luck, their bow is much more powerful in a 1v1 and their pet will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting a Necro? Good luck, they’ll have minions that will tank your traps and then you will be dead. Fighting an Engineer? Good luck, whatever those drones the Forge is getting will probably tank your traps and then you will be dead. Hell, even a Spirit Weapon Guardian will have an advantage over you. By placing a trap, you are almost literally placing your faith in a single spot of terrain and hoping that the first thing that touches it is your actual target. The reality is that that just isn’t going to happen nearly as often as you might think it will.

All true and of course valid and a problem. However I think its great that you see no value in stopping/destroying clones, phantasms, minios, drones or pets. this is exactly what I am talking about.

Black Box.9312:

You wanted more arguments that traps are bad? There, now you have them. But by all means, if you want to use them anyway, go ahead. The rest of us will just be busy NOT falling for them ….

… in pvp.

Black Box.9312:

Meanwhile, my only constructive feedback is that traps be reworked to the point where they’re “not traplike” again, because the moment Anet decided to make such a change they effectively destroyed any chance traps had at being competitive.

what change? what chance is destroyed? why is there no hope? again exactly my point. Everything is lost the guardian class is doomed.

I think it is important for each of you fighting for change to make sure that you make it way more clear that this gripe comes from a competitive pvp point of view.

I am not so ingorant as to not see your anger as frustation twords what the missed chance what you hope it could/should be and that the passionated opinions are indeed a high form of expressing passion for the class itself. But in the end you all paint the picture darker then it acutally is.

which does NOT mean that there is no need for improvement on the DH

Amineo.8951:

All people playing Guardian for 2 years or more said that traps were bad and DH sucks, …

no

/15 characters

A Random idea, a possible solution would be to, " make all the dh trap manually activate ( that means remove the part when they can be triggered by any enemy unit that touches them and add a sequence skill to activate them) so you can choose when is more rewarding to activate them " , you can even cc the enemies when they are above the trap so they cant escape from it. This will not only will increase the skill cap but also they will feel more unique

Asmodal.6489:

That is true for any skill in the game.

That is true as well and the downside of traps. no doubt about it.

This applies only when you are actually going 1on1 with an enemy which currently applies only to one gamemode: pvp

So we are indeed talking exclusivly about the pvp meta. I am not trying to put you on the spot because you are one of the few that often enough refers to this but the majority is generalizing the issues.

Maybe the skill is to not let this happen? An Assuming that you are facing pro players 100% of the time is again soemthing taht only applies to pvp and even there 80% of the games population will not have this issue.

All true and of course valid and a problem. However I think its great that you see no value in stopping/destroying clones, phantasms, minios, drones or pets. this is exactly what I am talking about.

… in pvp.

what change? what chance is destroyed? why is there no hope? again exactly my point. Everything is lost the guardian class is doomed.

I think it is important for each of you fighting for change to make sure that you make it way more clear that this gripe comes from a competitive pvp point of view.

I am not so ingorant as to not see your anger as frustation twords what the missed chance what you hope it could/should be and that the passionated opinions are indeed a high form of expressing passion for the class itself. But in the end you all paint the picture darker then it acutally is.

which does NOT mean that there is no need for improvement on the DH

I was actually referring to traps in any game mode, although I suppose you could argue that current PvE mobs are dumb enough that traps could be effective since they’re too simple to know how to avoid damage. That being said, I doubt they will be prevalent in the PvE meta anyway because on-demand aegis, condi clear, reflects, and stability are far more important for a Guardian to bring anyway.

Yes, of course you can evade any skill, but the difference in this case is that with traps the enemy has complete control over the timing involved, which makes it much easier for them. With any player-activated skill, the enemy has a very limited amount of time to analyze and react to what you are using. With traps, an enemy can look at a staircase, think “oh, there’s probably a trap here,” take a deep breath, and then evade over it, nullifying its effects completely. And when that happens, all you’re left able to do is think about how much you wish you didn’t have traps equipped. This is an ENORMOUS downside to using them, which makes them far less appealing, especially in comparison to the utilities we have that actually see regular use.

This really isn’t limited to a 1v1 scenario either. In group settings, it only takes one unit to trigger a trap (again, on their terms, not yours), and even if that unit takes the brunt of the effects instead of avoiding it, if you didn’t hit everybody with it then you’re boned because you have no utilities for the rest of the fight. That is, of course, unless you live long enough for the cooldowns to reset, in which case you can plant the traps at your feet again and pretend that they aren’t looking.

You can’t just “not let that happen”, because you have no control over the traps once they’re placed. You cannot skillfully outplay an opponent with skills that you do not control. It’s logically impossible. If the enemy triggers the trap and does not counterplay despite having the ability and opportunity to, then they messed up. It has nothing to do with you outperforming them. It would be no more skillful than if the AI literally placed the trap for you.

By the way, it doesn’t matter if the majority of players aren’t “pro” players. When you balance a competitive game, the goal should never be to work under the assumption of the lowest common denominator. Balancing around the “casual” crowd leaves little room for improvement and removes skill and strategy from the game, leaving you with equality of results regardless of commitment, talent, and/or effort input. In other words, a skilled player won’t have any advantage over an unskilled player, essentially leaving the game to chance and discouraging practice and further investment into getting better. The NBA wouldn’t be very interesting if the people who made the rules for basketball decided that all hoops should be 3 feet above the ground because that’s the highest point that a team of 5 year olds could shoot.

Even though yes, I tend to speak about the PvP side of things, keep in mind that these are all fundamental flaws with traps that apply to any game mode. It might be more obvious in PvP, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t apply anywhere else. Even then, the goal should be to make skills that are applicable everywhere. Even if something is lacking in just one place, that should be noted and taken into consideration so that proper balancing can be done. Saying “meh, they’re okay in PvE at least” is absolutely not an excuse for the fact that they’re horrendous in PvP and that people don’t want to use them there.

Am I being dramatic about it? Maybe; I wouldn’t doubt it. But I’m not painting the picture darker than it is. I’m not lying about anything. Nobody asked for traps, a very large percentage of us don’t want them, and a lot of people are really kittened off that Anet either doesn’t realize or doesn’t care that they’re terrible and won’t be used, which they very easily could have known just by looking at how little current traps are utilized.

Yes, you can predict a trap is on a set of stairs, but then they could also be placed at the top of stairs, or the bottom. Then we start getting into mind game territory which always exists in higher level play, both in games and sports. Unlike a guild rush, player set traps can be in conspicuous locations, but they cannot be memorized. You can only guess incorrectly so many times before it’s unrecoverable. Especially at that high level play where mistakes are all you can take advantage of.

Black Box.9312:

snip

read all of it and I respect that time you invest in the matter. I understand your position but it still derives purely from a competetive and minmaxing perspective.

Your rethorical apporach is note worthy yet you keep generalizeing things too much. yes you can dodge traps. with two of our traps that will not matter at all. anyone who dodges in LJ or PoB just wasted a dodge. you can dodge in the heal trap whoopdidoo the enemy is not blinded. … you still get you heal. With test of faith you lose the inital damage but the swords are there. you can not completly evade over a trap if you do not pixel excatly know wher its at.
you make it seem that all traps are totally made useless by one dodge which is not true. people read it repeat it and thats that.

you have lots of control over the battlefield. why to people dodge WW? because it hurts. people tend to avoid red circles and taek detours. people can be knocked back or pulled. herding a player into your trap is skillful play. will it work on pro player. maybe not but maybe it will. the question then remains is it worth it. If the trap would read something like “effected palyers are downed” you would slot that trap because it is strong. In the end that desides if a utility gets slotted. Look at purging flames. before the condition revamp it hardly saw any play. know there are meta builds that run them.

Your arguement to look at how traps are not used at the moment lacks because of just that. If the traps were stronger more effectiv they would see gameplay. Projecting your frustration on the mechanic itself is because you dislike the effect is unispired. Trap rangers are a thing.

Also who says that skills need to be applicable everywhere? whos rule is this? that is your opinion. you can look at any class and find skills and utilites that are rarely or never used. I give you that however that guard has probably the most of those to begin with (singets, SW, sanctuary, MI – not even talking about traits). Still WoR is a great example. by your logic this skill should be removed. because its not applicable in scenarios where your enemy does not use projectiles. No people like it because in some situations it is awsome. that should be the goal for traps. make them awsome – the mechanic is not the problem.

your NBA example failed because its not about making the rules so a 5 year old can score. mo one said that. its about keeping the hoop where it is but acknowledging that not everybody is lebron james and that most do not even aspire to be.

so yes you are not lying. but your glass is definetly half empty.

I’d like to add my experience tonthis thread as it seemed someone else had a better experience this bwe with dh like I did.

Dragon’s maw was and is a great elite and works against the stealther types one would face in pvp. But it, like the other traps are only gotcha skills. Dropping it as soon as you see that guy disappear isn’t gonna save you from the burst. But standing on point with your traps up is a nasty surprise when you chain the three useful traps together. Those being dm, pob and the light one that reveals, its name escapes me now.

But i wholeheartedly agree that traps require more thought and planning for use than what we, as a class, are used to. Trappers in wvw are a thing, and if you’re facing a smart trapper, a very annoying and potent thing.

Silhouette.5631:

Fashion Mage. Vulnerability is support. CC from Dragons Maw is support. Aegis is support. Check those trap effects again.

Also just because of your name I think it would be good to mention that Im probably ALOT better dressed than you

Learn the differences between the roles of damage, support, and control. The only actually supportive thing there is the trap that provides aegis, and that trap’s functionality is somewhat contradictory because aegis is something that should be timed, not something just placed down and activated at random. CC (crowd control) is control, it isn’t support. Vulnerability is damage, you’re weakening your opponent, not enhancing your ally. They might have similar results, but the means to those results are different.

RebornbyFire.7913:

@Fashion Mage and others complaining about lack of support: Two things — first, half the point of DH is to make it so that “support” is not the only way to play Guardian. Second, and much more importantly, controlling areas and annihilating enemies is totally support. Preventing advance, slowing retreat, area denial, or even outright killing enemies all “support” your allies. If Dragonhunter and traps can reach a point where they do that job and do it well, they will be fantastic and fun for those who can enjoy that playstyle.

Again, control =/= support. I’m not complaining that it has a lack of support, a ranger wannabe is a ranger wannabe after all. I just don’t want people pretending that it offers any significant support.
Not that support is the only way to play guardian already, considering that meditation and burning builds are viable or more than viable.

It’s funny all of his examples are fantasy situation, for example: they have no choice to activate my traps in some way or else. Give us humans some credits, we are not environmental mobs. Traps have been around, better ones, but you dont see them being used around do you. What make you think “oh this is godsent”? And longbow is great? well, during BWE, the only time that longbow ever hit me is when my allergy was acting up. Sound like these “tests” were done with test golems. Case closed.

After extensive theorycrafting and testing, I’ve come up with a unparalleled combination that has less synergy than even the Dragon Hunter. Don’t believe me? Read on.

Altruistic Healing+full signets+Rune of Resistance.

Every signet grants aegis (30s CD), proccing your runes, which procs altruistic healing, providing a minimum of ~70 health, and up to ~350 health in a full group. Every. 30. Seconds. How has no one done this before?

Salamander.2504:

After extensive theorycrafting and testing, I’ve come up with a unparalleled combination that has less synergy than even the Dragon Hunter. Don’t believe me? Read on.

Altruistic Healing+full signets+Rune of Resistance.

Every signet grants aegis (30s CD), proccing your runes, which procs altruistic healing, providing a minimum of ~70 health, and up to ~350 health in a full group. Every. 30. Seconds. How has no one done this before?

Ironically enough, I think you might need to recheck your definition of “synergy”, because even that meshes together better than DH does with the base class, even if it’s just outright terrible anyway.

It doesn’t mesh better. You’d have to be incompetent to actually think that. But, it does actually synergize.

Non synergy would be something like sword shield, Zeal, Valor, Honor and grabbing AH and symbol traits in apothecary gear. I doubt anyone would actually claim DH offers less than that.

Ghotistyx.6942:

It doesn’t mesh better. You’d have to be incompetent to actually think that. But, it does actually synergize.

Non synergy would be something like sword shield, Zeal, Valor, Honor and grabbing AH and symbol traits in apothecary gear. I doubt anyone would actually claim DH offers less than that.

Thanks for the passive-aggressive insult, but the two are close enough in definition that for this purpose they could be interchangeable. So yes, it does “mesh” better.

You’re very welcome. But my point stands. Dragonhunter legitimately synergizes well with much of the base class.

Ghotistyx.6942:

You’re very welcome. But my point stands. Dragonhunter legitimately synergizes well with much of the base class.

Yes it synergizes now, because we are in the same sucky train