Guild Wars 2

Edit: Removed for being out of date. Up-to-date version here.:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/70080-guardian-effective-dps-tests/

Why do hammer and staff have different builds from the others?

Minus 300 precision mean a great loss of DPS, 300 vitality and Healing Power don’t matter much in terms of DPS.

Why do hammer and staff have different builds from the others?
Minus 300 precision mean a great loss of DPS, 300 vitality and Healing Power don’t matter much in terms of DPS.

In addition to that, there are also variables in damage when used against multiple enemies. Scepter orbs are highly ineffective against multiple mobs and smite hits are shared. The third strike of the Mace auto attack only hits your main target. Staff Auto attack is a cone. Both Hammer and GS auto attacks are quite good as they both offer lots of AOE. GS abilities consistantly deal AOE damage despite the cool downs. Mighty blow has a huge radius in addition to the symbol after the third strike.

So which weapon is more combat effective in dungeons or boss fights? Damage comparisons can be finicky and you cannot treat damage numbers like you do in other MMOS, its not that simple I’m afraid. You should be switching them in and out depending on the situation if you wan’t to get most out of the profession.

I am positive Guanglai meant to evaluate against single target, so no AoE considerations, and that’s good for a comparison. We all know hammer and GS are good AoE Weapons, and Staff even hit 5x, but for now the target is “single foe”, to have a level comparison.

Still, i can’t understand the difference in builds.

The build difference is indeed screwing with the data. If the target is burning then Radiant Power in Radiance 25 will boost dmg by base 10% and if crit happens its a 15% boost in crit dmg. All weapons benefit from this and it can happen in the 1-2 second burn. Fiery wrath will also do this if traited.
You would have to dodge after every hit or two with hammer and staff to get 10% dmg boost from Honor 25 xD Besides no ones saying Hammer and staff should be built 30/30 valor honorr to be effective weapons. Its about choice: more hp or more crit rate and dmg

I suggest imho same traits but pick traits that dont boost dmg to certain weapons and instead boost overall dmg. Like dont pick 5% dmg boost to GS or Sword and pick a global boost like Radiant power or Fiery Wrath and keep it that way with different weapons for more conclusive data I dont find 2Handed Mastery a must trait with 2handed weapons since autoattack on a boss target will fill in dmg gaps. In PVP ppl dont have so much hp when u focus so DPS isnt really a factor but big burst rotation is.

Fabsm.5897:

Why do hammer and staff have different builds from the others?

Minus 300 precision mean a great loss of DPS, 300 vitality and Healing Power don’t matter much in terms of DPS.

They have different builds because the goal is to use the build that optimizes damage. Writ of Persistence and 2-Handed Mastery benefit both more than the extra 15% crit chance from the Radiance line. I made sure to trigger all damage boosting traits before getting the numbers (set them on fire, rolled to drop endurance, etc.) before getting any numbers so those are all factored in already.

If I were to use the same build for every weapon you’d see a huge drop in DPS for those weapons. Hammer barely scratches 1k/s with a 10/30/30/0/0 build. That’s not an useful comparison for anyone.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Hammer barely scratches 1k/s with a 10/30/30/0/0 build. That’s not an useful comparison for anyone.

If you know it doesn’t hit 1k/s with that build, that means you ran the numbers with it, right?

Why not post those so people wondering about it will be satisfied? I’m a little curious to see it, too.

Tryble.6819:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Hammer barely scratches 1k/s with a 10/30/30/0/0 build. That’s not an useful comparison for anyone.

If you know it doesn’t hit 1k/s with that build, that means you ran the numbers with it, right?

Why not post those so people wondering about it will be satisfied? I’m a little curious to see it, too.

Hammer with 10/30/30:

Auto: 1500, 1800, 2000, 900×2 = 1935/s
MB: 4000 total, 2060 net, 343/s
Overall = 1640/s

Also I realized I made a mistake with the hammer DPS in the original post. I took the average on the auto-attack DPS twice, it shouldn’t be that low. I’ve updated it now.

Is the scepter’s auto 2300/s or 1200/s ? 1200/s seems a mistake to me. (Single target dps)

Also keep in mind scepter’s attack rate is 1/4, which means it will apply more and more burning procs(Virtue of Justice) than any other weapon, as the time goes on .

I dont get this.

What is it that you actually display?

DPS over time? If so then whats the timeframe? How did you eliminate anomalies? How many samples?

DPS in individual abilities? If so why didnt you just take the dps values in the tooltip and divide with casting time (besides the typos ofc) in the tooltip. And when you done that you just add/subtract burns and the time it takes to cast other skills then the chain, given that the other skill actually adds dps. All skills doesnt add dps in a static/pve environment even though they at first glance seems to.

I read your explantion regarding the usuage of different builds and you motivate it with elusive power and 3 major traits in Honor even though its just writ of persistence that adds dps to hammer and two of them adds dps to GS/staff.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Auto: 1500, 1800, 2000, 900×2 = 1935/s
MB: 4000 total, 2060 net, 343/s
Overall = 1640/s

The symbol (untraited) adds 3 (not 2) ticks of damage so you need to add in that in the calculation above, or i totally misunderstood your calculation..

Max dps with the hammer is infact achieved by spamming skill 1, on static target, in pvp MB is the major damage contributor if played correctly.

Also when i test the skills on the heavy golem and test killtimes without gear and purple weapons i always score higher with the hammer chain then with the gs chain.

Ofc untraited, and if i would trait, the gs and hammer would benefit equally from the trait you use in the glasscanon build you test with your gs.

If we check the numbers in the tooltip and casting times that also supports my killtimes. Hammer chain has about 12-15% higher dps then the gs chain when spamming them on fixed/pve/ targets.

What am i missing here?

EDIT:
When i do the killtest on heavy golem with soldiers amulet and purple weapon i get the same result.

When i run a second run and activate VoJ when ever its off cd i also get that hammer has higher dps, faster killtimes, then GS chain even though the difference is slightly lower, the 6 hits from hammer chain benefits from faster attacks then gs but i still get the same. About 9-10% higher dps from hammer chain when using voj actively when ever its off cd.

Once again i dont see what im missing here, can you sort it out?

One more thing:

This can be found in your post above.
Auto: 1500, 1800, 2000, 900×2 = 1935/s

Imo it should be:
1500+1800+2000+(3*900)=8000

If 1935 is correct then the executiontime of the skill would be:

8000/1935=4,1s and this isnt the execution time imo.

When you calculated this did you incorporate the time it takes for the symbol to apply all its damage into the executiontime. If so then didnt calculate that while the symbol is ticking you can actually perform and other cahing that over lap.

this isn’t accurate. you should recalculate without a single point spent in traits since they all have major effects on your overall dps. you should also take crits out because that also affects dps. you gear should have no prec or crit to get a more accurate dps calculation.

hungryhippos.4980:

this isn’t accurate. you should recalculate without a single point spent in traits since they all have major effects on your overall dps. you should also take crits out because that also affects dps. you gear should have no prec or crit to get a more accurate dps calculation.

You just said traits and gear affect overall DPS so I shouldn’t include them in a calculation of overall DPS? Sure bro.

@ Brutaly

Now that I think about it logically the hammer symbol should tick three times untraited but I didn’t see a tick upon placement so I didn’t include it. I just went back and redid the numbers though and it doesn’t make a huge difference. It makes both versions of the build sit at around 1850/s. I’ll go back and update it properly.

As for your discrepancies in numbers, it’s obviously because you’re using steady weapons and no gear. You’ll be hitting for like 100 damage a hit and burning the golem for 160 so obviously whatever procs burn the most is going to do the most damage. Your burn accounts for more than half your damage there, whereas in reality you’ll be hitting the golem for 2-3k each hit and burning it for 160. The fact of the matter is that testing with purple weapons/no gear doesn’t tell you anything unless you’re actually going around with crap weapons and no gear in PvE.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hungryhippos.4980:

this isn’t accurate. you should recalculate without a single point spent in traits since they all have major effects on your overall dps. you should also take crits out because that also affects dps. you gear should have no prec or crit to get a more accurate dps calculation.

You just said traits and gear affect overall DPS so I shouldn’t include them in a calculation of overall DPS? Sure bro.

@ Brutaly

Now that I think about it logically the hammer symbol should tick three times untraited but I didn’t see a tick upon placement so I didn’t include it. I just went back and redid the numbers though and it doesn’t make a huge difference. It makes both versions of the build sit at around 1850/s. I’ll go back and update it properly.

As for your discrepancies in numbers, it’s obviously because you’re using steady weapons and no gear. You’ll be hitting for like 100 damage a hit and burning the golem for 160 so obviously whatever procs burn the most is going to do the most damage. Your burn accounts for more than half your damage there, whereas in reality you’ll be hitting the golem for 2-3k each hit and burning it for 160. The fact of the matter is that testing with purple weapons/no gear doesn’t tell you anything unless you’re actually going around with crap weapons and no gear in PvE.

Hes got a point, the more variables you can eliminate, that are in common for gs and hammer, the better and they should be eliminated in the calculation. The less variables you have the more reliable it becomes.

The first tick of the symbol hit at the same time as the third hit. If you look at it carefully you will see it. The symbol definitely has three hits.

If its minor or not, i dont know since i really dont understand what you are trying to explain but 900/ (1500, 1800, 2000, 900×2)= 0,13= 13% should be in the calculation if this is some sort of dps comparison that you want to display.

No, i tested with soldiers amulet+ pvp gear (4% crit) and purple weapon so i could minimize the anomalies, from crits, and i also tested with passive (benefits hammer) VoJ and also active (benefit gs) VoJ when ever it was off cd, no burns from passive VoJ. Both runs showed higher dps from hammer chain then from gs chain, ofc passive VoJ had a bigger advantantage for the hammer buts its still 8-9%. As i posted above.

I dont get the same result as you and i would appriciate if you could take me thru this step by step. How did you actually execute these tests?

Brutaly.6257:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hungryhippos.4980:

this isn’t accurate. you should recalculate without a single point spent in traits since they all have major effects on your overall dps. you should also take crits out because that also affects dps. you gear should have no prec or crit to get a more accurate dps calculation.

You just said traits and gear affect overall DPS so I shouldn’t include them in a calculation of overall DPS? Sure bro.

@ Brutaly

Now that I think about it logically the hammer symbol should tick three times untraited but I didn’t see a tick upon placement so I didn’t include it. I just went back and redid the numbers though and it doesn’t make a huge difference. It makes both versions of the build sit at around 1850/s. I’ll go back and update it properly.

As for your discrepancies in numbers, it’s obviously because you’re using steady weapons and no gear. You’ll be hitting for like 100 damage a hit and burning the golem for 160 so obviously whatever procs burn the most is going to do the most damage. Your burn accounts for more than half your damage there, whereas in reality you’ll be hitting the golem for 2-3k each hit and burning it for 160. The fact of the matter is that testing with purple weapons/no gear doesn’t tell you anything unless you’re actually going around with crap weapons and no gear in PvE.

Hes got a point, the more variables you can eliminate, that are in common for gs and hammer, the better and they should be eliminated in the calculation. The less variables you have the more reliable it becomes.

The first tick of the symbol hit at the same time as the third hit. If you look at it carefully you will see it. The symbol definitely has three hits.

If its minor or not, i dont know since i really dont understand what you are trying to explain but 900/ (1500, 1800, 2000, 900×2)= 0,13= 13% should be in the calculation if this is some sort of dps comparison that you want to display.

No, i tested with soldiers amulet+ pvp gear (4% crit) and purple weapon so i could minimize the anomalies, from crits, and i also tested with passive (benefits hammer) VoJ and also active (benefit gs) VoJ when ever it was off cd, no burns from passive VoJ. Both runs showed higher dps from hammer chain then from gs chain, ofc passive VoJ had a bigger advantantage for the hammer buts its still 8-9%. As i posted above.

I dont get the same result as you and i would appriciate if you could take me thru this step by step. How did you actually execute these tests?

I’m not playing this game with you anymore. I already explained how I found the numbers. I hit the golems and recorded the numbers and extrapolated from there. It’s not hard. I know you want to believe hammer is superior but it’s not. It’s not going to get any higher than it is now. Your problem is simple and I’ve already told you what it is. It is because you are using purple weapons. Stop using steady weapons and crap gear and spec for DPS and then try it. You will see that GS is clearly superior in terms of DPS.

Every time I try to bring numbers into the discussion you just go NUH UH WATCH ME KILL A VETERAN MOB IN ARAH WITH MY TOTALLY LEET HAMMER SKILLS and derail everything.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Brutaly.6257:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

hungryhippos.4980:

this isn’t accurate. you should recalculate without a single point spent in traits since they all have major effects on your overall dps. you should also take crits out because that also affects dps. you gear should have no prec or crit to get a more accurate dps calculation.

You just said traits and gear affect overall DPS so I shouldn’t include them in a calculation of overall DPS? Sure bro.

@ Brutaly

Now that I think about it logically the hammer symbol should tick three times untraited but I didn’t see a tick upon placement so I didn’t include it. I just went back and redid the numbers though and it doesn’t make a huge difference. It makes both versions of the build sit at around 1850/s. I’ll go back and update it properly.

As for your discrepancies in numbers, it’s obviously because you’re using steady weapons and no gear. You’ll be hitting for like 100 damage a hit and burning the golem for 160 so obviously whatever procs burn the most is going to do the most damage. Your burn accounts for more than half your damage there, whereas in reality you’ll be hitting the golem for 2-3k each hit and burning it for 160. The fact of the matter is that testing with purple weapons/no gear doesn’t tell you anything unless you’re actually going around with crap weapons and no gear in PvE.

Hes got a point, the more variables you can eliminate, that are in common for gs and hammer, the better and they should be eliminated in the calculation. The less variables you have the more reliable it becomes.

The first tick of the symbol hit at the same time as the third hit. If you look at it carefully you will see it. The symbol definitely has three hits.

If its minor or not, i dont know since i really dont understand what you are trying to explain but 900/ (1500, 1800, 2000, 900×2)= 0,13= 13% should be in the calculation if this is some sort of dps comparison that you want to display.

No, i tested with soldiers amulet+ pvp gear (4% crit) and purple weapon so i could minimize the anomalies, from crits, and i also tested with passive (benefits hammer) VoJ and also active (benefit gs) VoJ when ever it was off cd, no burns from passive VoJ. Both runs showed higher dps from hammer chain then from gs chain, ofc passive VoJ had a bigger advantantage for the hammer buts its still 8-9%. As i posted above.

I dont get the same result as you and i would appriciate if you could take me thru this step by step. How did you actually execute these tests?

I’m not playing this game with you anymore. I already explained how I found the numbers. I hit the golems and recorded the numbers and extrapolated from there. It’s not hard. I know you want to believe hammer is superior but it’s not. It’s not going to get any higher than it is now. Your problem is simple and I’ve already told you what it is. It is because you are using purple weapons. Stop using steady weapons and crap gear and spec for DPS and then try it. You will see that GS is clearly superior in terms of DPS.

Every time I try to bring numbers into the discussion you just go NUH UH WATCH ME KILL A VETERAN MOB IN ARAH WITH MY TOTALLY LEET HAMMER SKILLS and derail everything.

Its not a game to post in here . Im just confused atm. When i do dps test, spamming skill one, on the heavy golems in the mist i get results that differs from yours.

Do me one last favor, run a test with no traits, and soldiers amulet, spamming voj when ever you can and record killtimes of each individual weapon. It might be me being bugged for my numbers differs from yours.

Btw why post if you cant have a civil discussion, im actually trying to find out why there are differences between our two different methods,

OneManArmy.5617:

Also keep in mind scepter’s attack rate is 1/4, which means it will apply more and more burning procs(Virtue of Justice) than any other weapon, as the time goes on .

The attack rate isn’t 1/4 of a second that’s the casting time for the attack.

The Scepter attacks once a second.

Ezrael.6859:

OneManArmy.5617:

Also keep in mind scepter’s attack rate is 1/4, which means it will apply more and more burning procs(Virtue of Justice) than any other weapon, as the time goes on .

The attack rate isn’t 1/4 of a second that’s the casting time for the attack.

The Scepter attacks once a second.

You are absolutely right.
I just tested on the golems over 1minute period the scepter that has 1/4 casting time, the greatsword that has 1/2 casting time and the onehand sword that has (0 – 1/2 – 1/2(For 3hits) and it seems they all average about the same number of hits per second.

The scepter(1/4) had 75 hits over 60seconds = 1.25 hits/sec
The greatsword(1/2) had 75 hits over 60seconds = 1.25 hits/sec
The sword(0 – 1/2 – 1/2(3hits)) had 120hits over 60seconds = 2hits/sec but if we discount the 1/3 of the hits ((120/3) /3hits)) then it’s actually 83hits over 60seconds = 1.38hits/sec

After these tests,I have to wonder, what is the point of the casting time if all the autoattacks have a total global cooldown of 1 second.
That means an autoattack with a 1/4 second casting time and an autoattack with a 1 second casting time will have the same amount of hits per second.

OneManArmy.5617:

Ezrael.6859:

OneManArmy.5617:

Also keep in mind scepter’s attack rate is 1/4, which means it will apply more and more burning procs(Virtue of Justice) than any other weapon, as the time goes on .

The attack rate isn’t 1/4 of a second that’s the casting time for the attack.

The Scepter attacks once a second.

You are absolutely right.
I just tested on the golems over 1minute period the scepter that has 1/4 casting time, the greatsword that has 1/2 casting time and the onehand sword that has (0 – 1/2 – 1/2(For 3hits) and it seems they all average about the same number of hits per second.

The scepter(1/4) had 75 hits over 60seconds = 1.2kitten/sec
The greatsword(1/2) had 75 hits over 60seconds – 1.2kitten/sec
The sword(0 – 1/2 – 1/2(3hits)) had 120hits over 60seconds = 2hits/sec but if we discount the 1/3 of the hits ((120/3) /3hits)) then it’s actually 83hits over 60seconds = 1.38hits/sec

After these tests,I have to wonder, what is the point of the casting time if all the autoattacks have a total global cooldown of 1 second.
That means an autoattack with a 1/4 second casting time and an autoattack with a 1 second casting time will have the same amount of hits per second.

Not sure how you’re getting those numbers for scepter. The scepter hits exactly once per second and the sword is the same speed as the greatsword.

I fire for exactly 60seconds at one golem and count the attacks in the combat log.
Tried it multiple times, same outcome 75 hits over 60seconds.

So if the hammer, greatsword, and sword autos are all above the “Overall DPS” calculation, then if you’re just going for damage, why don’t you use those instead?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

OneManArmy.5617:

Ezrael.6859:

OneManArmy.5617:

Also keep in mind scepter’s attack rate is 1/4, which means it will apply more and more burning procs(Virtue of Justice) than any other weapon, as the time goes on .

The attack rate isn’t 1/4 of a second that’s the casting time for the attack.

The Scepter attacks once a second.

You are absolutely right.
I just tested on the golems over 1minute period the scepter that has 1/4 casting time, the greatsword that has 1/2 casting time and the onehand sword that has (0 – 1/2 – 1/2(For 3hits) and it seems they all average about the same number of hits per second.

The scepter(1/4) had 75 hits over 60seconds = 1.2kitten/sec
The greatsword(1/2) had 75 hits over 60seconds – 1.2kitten/sec
The sword(0 – 1/2 – 1/2(3hits)) had 120hits over 60seconds = 2hits/sec but if we discount the 1/3 of the hits ((120/3) /3hits)) then it’s actually 83hits over 60seconds = 1.38hits/sec

After these tests,I have to wonder, what is the point of the casting time if all the autoattacks have a total global cooldown of 1 second.
That means an autoattack with a 1/4 second casting time and an autoattack with a 1 second casting time will have the same amount of hits per second.

Not sure how you’re getting those numbers for scepter. The scepter hits exactly once per second and the sword is the same speed as the greatsword.

I tested a while back, so I am not quite sure if it still applies today, but scepter suffers from the “projectile ending” problem similar to the Orb of Light. If the projectile takes some time to travel to its target, it will have a standard recharge rate for the autoattack, which results in 1 hit per second. However, it the projectiles hit before that “recharge” period is up, it will fire off the second projectile faster than the standard rate. This will cause the autoattack to fire faster. If I am standing about 600 distance away from the golem, I get 60 hits per minute, but if I an standing right next to the golem and use the scepter autoattack, I got about 72-75 hits per minute.

I know it’s quite a bit of work and I thank you for that Guanglai Kangyi.4318, but do you intend to do these calculations for other professions?

Telegraph.7509:

I tested a while back, so I am not quite sure if it still applies today, but scepter suffers from the “projectile ending” problem similar to the Orb of Light. If the projectile takes some time to travel to its target, it will have a standard recharge rate for the autoattack, which results in 1 hit per second. However, it the projectiles hit before that “recharge” period is up, it will fire off the second projectile faster than the standard rate. This will cause the autoattack to fire faster. If I am standing about 600 distance away from the golem, I get 60 hits per minute, but if I an standing right next to the golem and use the scepter autoattack, I got about 72-75 hits per minute.

I tested the scepter at point blank, 600range,900range and 1200range.
In all cases there were 75 hits registered over 60seconds.

In a pure theoretical way, numbers in first post are coherent with what i thought about weapons.

Just bear in mind that, while hammer and greatsword (and staff) do AoE hits, Sword does not. So, Sword DPS is a little higher, but there are many times where having a GS or Hammer is really better DPS.

Went ahead and double-checked numbers based on tooltips. Mostly fits with my tests except for hammer, which was way off. Since I keep updating it I decided to just get rid of the outdated one in this forum and just link to the Guru thread.

Honorless builds make me shudder

Fabsm.5897:

In a pure theoretical way, numbers in first post are coherent with what i thought about weapons.

Just bear in mind that, while hammer and greatsword (and staff) do AoE hits, Sword does not. So, Sword DPS is a little higher, but there are many times where having a GS or Hammer is really better DPS.

That’s wrong, Sword does AoE hits and has about the same reach as the greatsword.
The first two hits do AoE damage in a cone horizontaly upfront like a greatsword’s autoattack, meanwhile the third hit(3 hits on each target) does AoE vertically upfront,which usually means no additional hits for it because its rare to find mobs one behind the other.

I have to admit, I find the approach a bit flawed. I don’t know how any reasonable comparison of the weapons themselves can be made here with all the confounding factors you have put into the assessment. What you are doing really says more about the damage of a specific build than the individual weapons. I still see some value, but people should be careful about what information you are giving them here.

Ultimately, if you just want to compare just the weapons themselves, you have to keep the factors that impact weapon damage constant for each weapon test. i.e. if you test naked with no traits for hammers, you have to test naked with no traits for all the rest of the weapons too.

edit
…these numbers are derived from naked, in the mists, without any traits selected, using steady weapons
edit

I have also delved into various spread sheets and weapon break downs, heal break downs, and burn break downs in an attempt to understand the functions of our class so I can better utilize and manipulate the skills we are given.

That said the last time I posted I was also called to quantify my data and had to address certain flaws in how the numbers were derived and what they were actually showing.

One interesting take away from that previous post was a PM from Brutality and more discussion about hammer DPS. He had some problems with the numbers I was showing and he was getting higher numbers with hammer than I was.

Through that discussion I had an idea to break down weapon damage by 1/4 of a second. Many of our abilities revolve around an attack swing of 1/4, 1/2, or a full second. Also we seem to have damage happen more than “per a second” and some things tick pretty fast so I think 1/4 of a second break down helps brings these attacks to a common level so we see how they perform in equal timing.

The following is that break down:

Sword
Skill 1 – 32.75
Skill 2 – 0.2
Skill 3 – 1.866666667

Mace
Skill 1 – 17.125
Skill 2 – 3.28125
Skill 3 – 1

Scepter
Skill 1 – 28
Skill 2 – 5.541666667

Staff
Skill 1 – 14
Skill 2 – 4.75
Skill 3 – 1.916666667

Staff Burst
Skill 1 – 14
Skill 2 – 1.770833333
Skill 3 – 1.916666667

Greatsword
Skill 1 – 21.66666667
Skill 2 – 4.025
Skill 3 – 0.85
Skill 4 – 1.4375
Skill 5 – 13.725

Hammer
Skill 1 – 21.77777778
Skill 2 – 4.15
Skill 3 – 0.616666667
Skill 4 – 0.47

What do these mean? Auto attack chains do better damage per 1/4 a second because they rotate and do not have dead periods in which they are on cool down.

Each weapon has different utilities they can offer but a good majority of DPS is gained from the auto attack. Great sword is kind of a unique weapon in which almost every attack is a choice of DPS but they cancel each other out since you can’t do both at the same time.

Somethings, like scepter 1 and 2 can be used “together” as you can have smite cast in a fraction of a second and have that ticking while you are still firing off auto attacks, thus creating a better synergy with the skills.

So, I believe, a lot of our cooldown abilities are mostly to generate burst or utility and not really a form of sustained DPS. Used correctly in conjunction with our chain abilities they will pump up our overall DPS, but some should be ignored if you are going for purely damage (such as sword 2) unless it generates some sort of boon or condition that will help increase damage (such as sword 2 causing blindness and then getting 10% more damage on a target that has conditions on it).

One more time… What does this mean? “I don’t know….” but they are interesting numbers to sort through.

Obtena.7952:

I have to admit, I find the approach a bit flawed. I don’t know how any reasonable comparison of the weapons themselves can be made here with all the confounding factors you have put into the assessment. What you are doing really says more about the damage of a specific build than the individual weapons. I still see some value, but people should be careful about what information you are giving them here.

Ultimately, if you just want to compare just the weapons themselves, you have to keep the factors that impact weapon damage constant for each weapon test. i.e. if you test naked with no traits for hammers, you have to test naked with no traits for all the rest of the weapons too.

You don’t need to know the damage output ungeared/untraited because you won’t be ungeared/untraited ever. If it does bother you that much though you can just look at the base numbers, before I factored in crits and traits. That’ll at least tell you what the relative damage output on each weapon is, before traits and gear. The base number is based on the tooltips, which only incorporate weapon damage and power, so they’ll be consistent across all builds.

CMF.5461:

edit
…these numbers are derived from naked, in the mists, without any traits selected, using steady weapons
edit

I have also delved into various spread sheets and weapon break downs, heal break downs, and burn break downs in an attempt to understand the functions of our class so I can better utilize and manipulate the skills we are given.

That said the last time I posted I was also called to quantify my data and had to address certain flaws in how the numbers were derived and what they were actually showing.

One interesting take away from that previous post was a PM from Brutality and more discussion about hammer DPS. He had some problems with the numbers I was showing and he was getting higher numbers with hammer than I was.

Through that discussion I had an idea to break down weapon damage by 1/4 of a second. Many of our abilities revolve around an attack swing of 1/4, 1/2, or a full second. Also we seem to have damage happen more than “per a second” and some things tick pretty fast so I think 1/4 of a second break down helps brings these attacks to a common level so we see how they perform in equal timing.

The following is that break down:

Sword
Skill 1 – 32.75
Skill 2 – 0.2
Skill 3 – 1.866666667

Mace
Skill 1 – 17.125
Skill 2 – 3.28125
Skill 3 – 1

Scepter
Skill 1 – 28
Skill 2 – 5.541666667

Staff
Skill 1 – 14
Skill 2 – 4.75
Skill 3 – 1.916666667

Staff Burst
Skill 1 – 14
Skill 2 – 1.770833333
Skill 3 – 1.916666667

Greatsword
Skill 1 – 21.66666667
Skill 2 – 4.025
Skill 3 – 0.85
Skill 4 – 1.4375
Skill 5 – 13.725

Hammer
Skill 1 – 21.77777778
Skill 2 – 4.15
Skill 3 – 0.616666667
Skill 4 – 0.47

What do these mean? Auto attack chains do better damage per 1/4 a second because they rotate and do not have dead periods in which they are on cool down.

Each weapon has different utilities they can offer but a good majority of DPS is gained from the auto attack. Great sword is kind of a unique weapon in which almost every attack is a choice of DPS but they cancel each other out since you can’t do both at the same time.

Somethings, like scepter 1 and 2 can be used “together” as you can have smite cast in a fraction of a second and have that ticking while you are still firing off auto attacks, thus creating a better synergy with the skills.

So, I believe, a lot of our cooldown abilities are mostly to generate burst or utility and not really a form of sustained DPS. Used correctly in conjunction with our chain abilities they will pump up our overall DPS, but some should be ignored if you are going for purely damage (such as sword 2) unless it generates some sort of boon or condition that will help increase damage (such as sword 2 causing blindness and then getting 10% more damage on a target that has conditions on it).

One more time… What does this mean? “I don’t know….” but they are interesting numbers to sort through.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say or what those numbers are supposed to mean but I think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding something. The numbers here are supposed to be DPS, i.e. damage per second. It’s not about the maximum damage a weapon is capable of doing in a one-second interval, but how much it deals on average over time. There’s no reason to measure in quarter seconds because if you really need to know how much damage you’re doing in a quarter of a second for whatever bizarre reason, you could just divide everything by 4.

they are divided by a quarter second based on cooldown, and they show how the attacks damage over time in smaller increments. So instead of averaging the damage over a period of time to how much damage is done in a second. this is taking that 1 second increment of damage and shrinking it down into a smaller point of measurement so that some attacks that do round down into a second evenly are more consistent with each other.

It is taking the same idea that you are looking for and reducing it down to its very root so that you can see each weapon without inflated numbers. Traits after that can be used to better improve the performance individually, but they are based off that basic form.
What this shows is that weapons in increments of 1/4 of a second have stronger or weaker effects. Some weapons have equivalent auto attack chains, while others have stronger or weaker auto attack chains.

This information is still in line with some of your own calculations, so take a second to look and read instead of shrug off cause it is not your information.

For example:

You can not just take scepter auto attack and divide by 4……it’s auto attack happens every 0.25 seconds and does 28 damage, so if you were to divide 28 by 4 you get 7. This is wrong because in 1/4 a second (0.25) it does exactly 28 damage.

So lets take the Greatsword.
It’s auto chain has a sequence of: 37+37+56
This totals into 130 damage.
The swings occur in a time sequence of: 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
Totaling into 1.5 seconds of attacking to complete the auto attack chain.

Dividing 130 by 4 would result in 32.5
This again is wrong because the attacks do not fit into 1 perfect second, but extend into a second and a half.

So break down the attack chain into 1/4 of a second to see how it performs.

130/6 = 21.67 damage per 1/4 a second.

So to compare those two auto attack chains, the scepter does 28 damage every 1/4 a second and the greatsword does 21.67 damage every 1/4 a second.

This is not the full picture though, because the greatsword has a symbol and a DOT that you can have ticking at the same time as the greatsword auto attack so if I combine those damages for the greatsword it can do 36 damage per 1/4 a second for a short period of time.

The scepter can only combo together smite and the orb auto attack and it can at a maximum do 33 damage per 1/4 of a second.

Ok great, now we know that the greatsword does 21.67 damage every 1/4 of a second. What happens in a 60 second fight?

well there are 240 increments of 1/4 of a second in 60 seconds. So multiply 21.67 by 240.
5200.8 damage done.
Well how much damage did I do “per a second?”
86.68 dps
Well a second has 4 quarters to it, i.e. 1/4 of a second so how much damage would 86.68 damage per a second be if I were to break it down to 1/4 of a second?
21.67 damage per 1/4 of a second.

We can do this all day, it is the same numbers as you should be getting in your dps calculations but smaller fractions of the same number because I’m measuring to a finer degree than you are.

OneManArmy.5617:

I tested the scepter at point blank, 600range,900range and 1200range.
In all cases there were 75 hits registered over 60seconds.

After reading your post I went back through and tested it myself and the attacks in application do seem gated by the game. The tooltips show 1/4 a second cast time so you would think the scepter attacks every 1/4 a second. In 60 seconds that should be 240 attacks.

My tests were only 20 seconds and I came up with about 25 to 26 attacks in 20 seconds for scepter and for the sword I came up with 24 to 25 attacks.

A really small sample and prone to human error but the scepter “DOES” swing faster, but it is limited by the game animations it seems. Not exactly by the second but pretty close to it.

ran another test with lowest graphics possible running about 300 frames per a second.

Attacked for 20.4 seconds and got 26 attacks with the scepter.

Previously I had fps limited by monitor refresh rate so it was at 60 frames per a second.

Just a quick thought on if fps affected attack performance.

If someone could get sub 60fps and test this that would be nice.

Did another test with mace just now and got 19 attacks in 20.5 seconds.

So attacks do vary from weapon to weapon as far as speed, but they do not reflect the tool tips very well.

And for the sake of matching my previous statements about attack speed with greatsword and scepter, I tested greatsword and got 25 attacks in 20.5 seconds

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

What.

I think you just summed up your understanding of the math behind this pretty well just now and how dps works. What I was trying to provide you in short was “lowest common denominator” of the dps of our attacks.

Regardless, previous posts show that actual effect of attacks differs from the tool tip attack times and cooldowns, as we are gated loosely by an attack every second. So while my previous calculations are spot on for what the tooltips say, the game does not apparently obey by the rules it lists in those tooltips it provides us.

Intended by the devs? sure I guess, but I wonder why give us attack swing timers if we are limited by animations so greatly.