Guild Wars 2

Well, in these days i see many PPL talking about retaliation, but not one say what he think about this boon.
This is not a topic to talk of the SOW Nerf, i only want to know, what the other guardians player think.

So, for me retaliation its a boon for lazy Gameplay, that dont really fit (for now) the basic idea of an action MMORPG like Gw2, and dont really fit the idea that I have of a guardian.
From my little pvp experience, i see really a LOT of guardians that simply dont move, they never dodge, they use hammer, but they dont use a knock back or a warding ring, they simply stand up, spamming the retaliation rotation and they watch the enemy suicide.
I really dont think its a funny mechanincs and a really dont think this is active defence, when a think about what is a guardian defence, im referring to skills like Focus #5 or wall of reflection, skill that enemy can see, that can be avoided if i use them whitout thinking or if the enemy is smarter then me.

So, for me this boon, can be used really to frequently, and a think that this type of boon, must be deleted from simbols or from combo field in favor of a most active type of defence(well we have a lot of good active defences maybe some whit too high cd) and damage (where we lack, because we have retaliation), and maybe use retaliation only on some utility\elite skills (like renewed focus, to make that really an elite skills)

For what i see, and what a read on the net, too many PPL think that Guardian == retaliation spammer, and this really, make me sad.

Guardians have fewer hit points and less DPS than other classes. Retaliation is necessary, purely defensive, and if you find yourself on the other side of it, and you don’t know how to respond (AoE, Conditions, any number of possibilities) , then you have nobody to blame but yourself if you die. There are plenty of ways to take down a Guardian and I get tired of people, many of whom have never played a Guardian trying to paint them as some sort of invincible Juggernaut. They’ve been Nerfed again and again, mostly because players who don’t understand how to handle the boon and the Guardian’s particular mechanic whined… well, now the Guardians are sick and tired of it and they’re finally saying something about it. You don’t hear Guardians saying that Thief Stealth is ‘IMPOSSIBLE’ handle. Of course not, it can be dealt with, and so can Retribution. Lazy? I’m not even going to dignify that remark. Flaming each other will help no one.

Retaliation can be completely removed from the game for all I care. It’s just a side-effect to me, so I really don’t care about it. However, a guardian can’t sneeze without gaining retaliation from something right now, and it has always been a damage source for us in some way. So despite its significance (or insignificance), if Anet ever decided to remove it , I think the the damage output should be transferred to something else.

and you don’t know how to respond (AoE, Conditions, any number of possibilities)

^That’s fun how you list just two options, one of which is wrong (Retal still works on AoE attacks and if you happen to hit several enemies that have Retal you’re going to die even quicker) and another is stupid (not all builds are Condi damage, bunker Guards have quite a bit of Condi removal, Condition-builders are often attacks that make you get hit by Retal) and say “lots of options”.

There are really two options. Boon removal, which doesn’t always work (too many sources of Retal) and is extremely scarce or just not attacking, but since GW2 is a point defense game, that’s not an option, not to mention it’s possible to have nearly 100% Retal uptime.

Retal, as a concept, is fine. It’s impossible to not get hit in PvP, so the whole “works against the idea of active combat” shtick is really just a wish-wash, people get hit, people die, and that’s when Retal comes into play. It would be fine if it worked like A-net intended it to, e.g. a short term punishing effect for countering clusterkittens at the Keep/Clocktower, which forces the enemy to be careful and watch his attacks or get punished. That’d be nice if A-net knew what abilities are actually in the game, so they don’t nerf the SoW and nerf Retal uptime trait and Retal on Virtues trait instead, but no dice in here. What we have now is pretty much a lose-lose situation. Bunker builds that can take on 3+ enemies and live, dealing heavy damage through Retaliation alone, without having to time it properly.

@edelweiss
yeah maybe i express myself in a wrong term, my english its not so good
what a think is that a 100% retal uptime its against and action game concept, beceause when you become a MIRROR, you can simply heals yourself and dont move. xD

Well im glad to see other guardians player that think the same as me

I think of retaliation like confusion… it’s a situational boon, an quite frankly it, along with confusion should either be made:

A – briefer, more active, and of high enough consequence to force players to pay attention and behave differently when its up (force an opponent to choose a different path or hesitate— punish players for zerging)

OR

B – it should be removed from the game, and the cooldown/damage adjusted on all other weapon and utility skills to account for the lost damage and defense. (e.g. you can use damaging attacks a bit more often, and you could DOUBLE dodge regen to make defense more active)

@TenzKu

have you ever think about the fact that some of the nerf on OUR class (like low health pool) was maybe caused exactly from the insane retal uptime?

Retaliation is similar to a Dot. It doesn’t seem to be worth making such a fuss over.

In fact, Retaliation in its current form seems like a great mechanism which gives bunker guardians one small way of punishing people for not CCing them and killing them quickly.

What do I think of retaliation?

I think retaliation is under review. I think it’ll be very difficult to make it into what they want, however, without making it overpowered.

In it’s current form, I think it is weak to the degree of being worthless.

I actully can’t see the issue myself, the few threads/posts i’ve read when people say it’s OP have posted screenshots of it doing around 10k damage in around 45/50 hits (on average around 225/250 damage returned per hit).

Honestly i can’t for the life of me figure out how hitting someone 50 times and getting returned 10k damage is somehow OP – i’d say it’s actully UP if you decide to go on a full ret build considering what you have to sacrifice (and i actully think a trait should be high in a tree to increase damage from it).

This is even worse when you consider how much damage some other classes can do in 1 attack on certain builds (but they’re “balanced”).

I don’t really make much use of the boon, either in PvP or PvE. At best it’s a side effect for me.
But I do have certain issues with the design. First of all, it scales of power, which makes no sense. It should just reflect the damage that you receive. It’s also hard to see which boons players have on them, so Retaliation should get a very clear visual, so other players know when no to attack.

I agree with Arenanet that Retaliation should be an active mechanic. Something you pop if you see a “100 Blades” coming. But in order for that to work, they’re going to have to redesign pretty much every skill that grants it.

Retaliation is pretty much useless. For one, it’s most often triggered incidentally. I don’t use “Stand Your Ground” or “Save Yourselves” for Retaliation, I use them for the group Stability and Condition Removal. Okay that was a lie. I use Save Yourselves for Fury on demand. Symbol of Wrath was the only Skill out there where Retaliation was the main effect and somewhat controllable.

And even then you still need an enemy to attack you.

That works well when I can pull a few critters on me and watch them hurt themselves once or twice. It doesn’t work so well when I got one tough opponent who either hits once in five seconds or comes out with a high damage multi attack that I can’t afford to stand in to gain the benefit from Retaliation.

If Retaliation prevented the damage it put out it would be a definite step towards what the patch notes suggested it should be. Else the entire concept is pointless cause you’ll spike a bit of damage before you die and that was it.

Its very simple in my opinion, mechanic where ppl/npc must hit you to do dmg is fail, since this game is all about avoidance. They should make shiled spells that reflect stuffs, without damaging you, even melee as its now for range (those walls and bubbles) – retaliation as its now is just boring and passive implementation of what can be incorporated into active spell (tho with added that you dont take all dmg).

Tho it can go away as whole since similar job have blocking spells or aegis or protection boon. But you could have trait where if enemy hit you while you have some kind damage mitigration than it also damages them back./or for more defensive players – heals you.

People that think retaliation is “worthless” do not realize how powerful it actually is in tPvP. On my bunker guard I just sit down and turtle with Mace/Shield + Hammer. My sources of retaliation are from Virtues (15pt Minor), Stand Your Ground (saved of course for needed situations, but still gives uptime), and the Hammer combo-chain.

My damage coming from weapons does not hit hard at all, in fact I’m more focused on keeping them off-point and surviving than doing damage. But I still can come out top in most 1v1s because of retaliation. Rangers/Engineers popping Quickness and killing themselves is quite common place. In 1v2s, I do the same thing as I’d do 1v1 and somewhere somehow, both will end up at ~45-50% by the time my reinforcements arrive and finish them off.

This is not even going a retaliation build, it’s just a byproduct of playing the Guardian. It’s an extremely strong boon that is essentially free damage for you if you turtle up. Without it, bunker Guardians would not have the damage to push people over the edge, but at the same time the output you can get from it is quite a bit hilarious. A thief trying to kite me can drop to 45% without me ever hitting him once.

I don’t want them to nerf it so it’s worthless, I still want it to be punishing but I can see the sentiment in why people think the up-time is too good. It’s not some LOLBURST, but the damage easily racks up.

Retaliation sure isn’t worthless, but it certainly isn’t ridiculous either as some others suggest.

The issue i recon a lot have is the lack of strategic play, it’s a case of “ohh look i hit that retaliation guardian 50 times and he did 10k damage on me – NERF!!!” instead of “ohh look that guardian has retaliation, i better noit just spam 50 attacks on him, i better use some stategy”.

If the tool tips are to be accurate, in a vacuum it’ll take 3s to do the 1-2-3 + Mighty Blow chain on the Hammer. Obviously, in an actual match the numbers will be different but we’ll go with that for now. The retaliation from the blast combo lasts ~3s last I checked so whenever you’re wielding a hammer, it’s nearly up all the time as long as you’re getting your auto-attack combo in.

Obviously you’re not going to sit in hammer all the time but when you have it, the window in which you don’t have retaliation is quite small. The virtues and shout can somewhat keep it coming every now and then in your other weapon set too.

If the wiki is to be believed, this is how retaliation damage is calculated.

Retaliation reflects damage based on level and scales with power, increasing damage by 1 for every 13.4 power. At level 80, base damage is 267.

With just the Soldier’s amulet and gem, not counting any buffs or what not or any bonuses from traits, your Power will be at 1839.

1839/13.4 + 267 = 404.238806

No idea how they round numbers in the end but that’s a decent hefty chunk that easily adds up.

The general sentiment is that it’s too easy to keep up and the damage feels largely unavoidable if you want to dent the Guardian at all.

The true counters really are boon removals, the best of which belong to the Mesmer and Necromancer. Null Field being the best option of course, Arcane Thievery has a cap of 3 boons that it steals. Corrupt Boon is blocked by Aegis and has issues landing regardless, I know this first hand after playing Necros as my first class. Well of Corruption does take off boons regardless of Aegis, but it has a cap of 5 boons as it ticks 1 by 1 over 5s.

I really like retaliation, it’s a huge reason why bunker guardians are such a threat. Without it, we won’t pressure as easily when fending off foes before our team comes to our rescue. But at the same time, I can totally see why people are upset over it. What I’m unsure about is does it tick for every tick of Bleed/Poison/Burn ticks? And if you’re eating 8 bleeds, do they take the damage 8 times, one for each unique bleed stack?

I agree with the troll.
I played a defensive healing non retal guardian since launch (OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN TELL BY THE NAME)
one day I decided to learn about combos and that I can give aoe retalliation WHILE DOING AN AOE ATTACK. I could litterally go onto a point and kill 3 rogues at once within SECONDS
them doing aoe attcks and hitting many targets and me hitting them with a 2handed sword

but

then i thought about it, and it only is powerful against classes that can spam small attacks, which is ranger and thief and hundred blades warriors. the rest of the game is uneffected
my ele could care less about retal. and my necro LOLz at it then turns it into a condition.

but

the majority of the game PLAYS the 3 specs and classes that retal does the best against, and the LEAST played classes are the ones that do the best against retalliation.

so I agree and disagree. perhaps you should try another class and see if retalliation is REALLY a problem. havent heard many people complain about those retalliation necros.

See here is where I differ from a lot of the people who grew up in wow

i am all in favor of “anti moron” buttons being THE MOST powerful moves in the game.
In warhammer we had an ability that did 300 damage for 2 sec. dosent sound powerful in a game where people had 4k life right? the tool tip said if the charachter MOVES, then every step they take refreshes the timer. so people would get hit by “grok sez stop” and die because they would never stop moving. wanna know who hated it the most? all the wow kids who rerolled as “rogues” and “rangers” who played by bunny hopping all over the place…. those kids took lots of damage and died from 1 spell.

Rift we had a spell. “deals 200 damage” over 10 sec.
not very powerful eh in a game where people had 8k hp eh?
but
every time the target was healed, it REFRESHED the duration, AND casted another stack. I could put it on a healer type and they would litterally walk around for 2 minutes with 20 stacks on trying to OUT HEAL IT!!!

im not in favor of abilities that kill quicker than you can react, which is why I am down on rogue types who can attack from stealth, kill quickly and then get away. this is why the only rogue class i approved of was from DAOC, where stealthers had to COMBO… no not combo points where you spam 1 button then a finisher.. no in daoc they had to combo from stealth. a chain of 6 attacks from the front (high + a large dot) which would kill anything other than a Tank or High HP healer or 4 from the back (low damage and a stun) if you died, you still had a CHANCE for someone to save you while the combo was going on., and when you died you at least knew he had to work for it.

so im more in favor of removing or putting a LOOONG cooldown on backstab and steal and cloak and dagger than I am of nerfing retalliation. I actually want to BUFF reactive moves and nerf active ones.

Lumines.3916:

I really like retaliation, it’s a huge reason why bunker guardians are such a threat.

I actually think that’s part of the problem. Bunker-builds (of any profession) shouldn’t have much in terms of offensive power. They should be able to stay alive long, keep enemies of the point and very slowly whittle their health down by superior play.
Retaliation destroys that concept, because it gives a lot of offensive power to a defensive build.

Ynna.8769:

Lumines.3916:

I really like retaliation, it’s a huge reason why bunker guardians are such a threat.

I actually think that’s part of the problem. Bunker-builds (of any profession) shouldn’t have much in terms of offensive power. They should be able to stay alive long, keep enemies of the point and very slowly whittle their health down by superior play.
Retaliation destroys that concept, because it gives a lot of offensive power to a defensive build.

Hi,
what I say is about tpvp.

Retaliation is like the only thing which hinders ppl from killing a guardian in 1v1. Without it, guardians would lose EVERY 1v1, in more or less (15s) time.
Why bring a class that can’t handle any 1v1? Every other class would be a better pointholder at that point, because having to send sb to help out the guardian everytime 1 ennemy is there is just bad.

Btw, water ele heal is WAY tankier than any guardian spec. They don’t have retaliation, so what makes them good bunkers? The insane healing output, which guardians don’t have like eles do.

Whatever, to come back to the initial topic, retaliation is what makes guardians, alonside with their tankiness, good bunkers.

Ynna.8769:

Lumines.3916:

I really like retaliation, it’s a huge reason why bunker guardians are such a threat.

I actually think that’s part of the problem. Bunker-builds (of any profession) shouldn’t have much in terms of offensive power. They should be able to stay alive long, keep enemies of the point and very slowly whittle their health down by superior play.
Retaliation destroys that concept, because it gives a lot of offensive power to a defensive build.

Holy words.
Instead of a passive retaliation i prefer more active skill damage, so you can play like in a boxe fight (i have already use this example in another thread): block, block, dodge, take time, attack…