Guild Wars 2

The title pretty much sums it all. I’ve always wondered which was the niche of the guardian in pvp. I know that it can be a 1v1 bruiser and that played perfectly is a tough adversary but what does it offer now (season 5)?

Let’s childishly analyze all classes and their job and why they would be good to be taken into pvp.

Thief
- High mobility, stealth and high power dps spikes
Mesmer
- Considerable mobility, huge condi spikes, moa (4v5 for 6 seconds)
Warrior
- Condi bash, incredible survivability (a.k.a. a lot of inmune time) great for mid fights and single target focusing
Necromancer
- Condi spam, boon corrupt, great health pool but no damage mitigation
Engineer
- Great projectile hate, mass invis, AoE cc (thunderclap?), a lot of damage mitigation and boon share
Druid
- Heals, condi cleanse, bunkerish, cc depending on pet
Ele
- Healbot (sadly), boon share
Revenant
- Be all and do all (before patch of course, now i don’t know, they disappeared a.k.a nerfed to oblivion)

Now what would the guardian be.
My impression is that the guard abruptly went from huge power spike damages (pre HoT and HoT release) to permanent sustained damage (traps doing no damage unless you properly combo, offering almost no CC but having symbols in all weapons).

Before the traps changed daze for slow I felt my job was to create oportunities while CCing the whole enemy team, thus allowing resses/stomps. Now that they slow; and slow doesn’t affect stomping/ressing I feel that niche is gone.
In terms of raw party damage a lot of classes can deal considerably more AoE damage and offer more CC so WHY would i be there. Also the lack of runes choices I can take (traveler to become a fast slug instead of a slug) don’t offer much diversity either.

In my opinion the guardian has become a sort of “balanced all round”, doesn’t do much spiky damage anymore and beats the enemy by tiring them, has a considerable amount of defensive capabilities yet fails to offer something in high level pvp.
Maybe the damage is a direct correlation to the weapons’ skill. I feel atm no weapon per se has the capabilities to deal great damages as for example mesmer gs4 + 3 or as the longbow 2 used to hit (for example)

If I were to chose between a guardian and an engi while going against competent players I’d choose the engi just because I fail to see what the guardian could offer than the engi could not.

What do you guys feel about this, what are your opinions, any hints or insight as to where the guardian belongs?

Guardian
- Bunker/ bruiser , boon share, safe stomp, condi cleanse, point control, can be bursty.

and arguably the best 1v1 decapper in the game with the symbolic build.

pspshadowman.2701:

Guardian
- Bunker/ bruiser , boon share, safe stomp, condi cleanse, point control, can be bursty.

Bunker/bruiser: depends on the builds. Hybrid builds aren’t yet available/ do not shine.

Boon share: Which ones? I’m interested in this point. If you go “bunker” guard you have the shouts boons to share. If that’s the case then ele takes the upper hand.
The boons on the weapons’ symbols aren’t really used over allies, they are almost 100% of the time used to hurt enemies, thus the might and fury you get from sword scepter are more likely situational, specially in big caps like middle foefire.

Condi cleanse: I think landing Wings of resolve over an ally is one of the hardest things to do, I personally don’t see much ppl doing it. The fact that it is possible wasn’t the purpose of this post. Again an ele is much better at party cleansing, mainly because it has a non targetted AoE.

Safe stomp: agreed. Nonetheless a lot of other classes have it, for example mesmer F4.

Point control: meaning? Able to stay 1v1 a lot of time?

Can be bursty: agree and disagree.

Much of the benefits of this class are 1v1 only. On a team based game being good at 1v1 doesn’t always get results. Unless the niche is going yolo 1v1 which on organized teamplay doesn’t really happen too often, the most common scenario is 2v2.

pspshadowman.2701:

Guardian
- Bunker/ bruiser , boon share, safe stomp, condi cleanse, point control, can be bursty.

lmao bunker that dies in 1 – 3 hits from my bzerker… if the bunker guard dont have a decent team.

Good bunkers are classes that can get HP up fast, guardian after burn its blocks cant do nothing, and unblockables are nasty, its a class that gets carried by teamates, i think there are far better options in the offensive field for the guardian.

Aeolus.3615:

pspshadowman.2701:

Guardian
- Bunker/ bruiser , boon share, safe stomp, condi cleanse, point control, can be bursty.

lmao bunker that dies in 1 – 3 hits from my bzerker… if the bunker guard dont have a decent team.

Good bunkers are classes that can get HP up fast, guardian after burn its blocks cant do nothing, and unblockables are nasty, its a class that gets carried by teamates, i think there are far better options in the offensive field for the guardian.

That was my feeling and I think it’s the reason we never see them in high end pvp play.
The question stands the same then:
What does the guardian offer for pvp if, in any field you choose to “specialize” there’s another class that can do it better?

(Obviously in solo queue, having a good all around class can be good but it seems pointless to have a class which is underpoerforming in organized play)

holychampion.7386:

The title pretty much sums it all. I’ve always wondered which was the niche of the guardian in pvp. I know that it can be a 1v1 bruiser and that played perfectly is a tough adversary but what does it offer now (season 5)?

Let’s childishly analyze all classes and their job and why they would be good to be taken into pvp.

Thief
- High mobility, stealth and high power dps spikes
Mesmer
- Considerable mobility, huge condi spikes, moa (4v5 for 6 seconds)
Warrior
- Condi bash, incredible survivability (a.k.a. a lot of inmune time) great for mid fights and single target focusing
Necromancer
- Condi spam, boon corrupt, great health pool but no damage mitigation
Engineer
- Great projectile hate, mass invis, AoE cc (thunderclap?), a lot of damage mitigation and boon share
Druid
- Heals, condi cleanse, bunkerish, cc depending on pet
Ele
- Healbot (sadly), boon share
Revenant
- Be all and do all (before patch of course, now i don’t know, they disappeared a.k.a nerfed to oblivion)

Now what would the guardian be.
My impression is that the guard abruptly went from huge power spike damages (pre HoT and HoT release) to permanent sustained damage (traps doing no damage unless you properly combo, offering almost no CC but having symbols in all weapons).

Before the traps changed daze for slow I felt my job was to create oportunities while CCing the whole enemy team, thus allowing resses/stomps. Now that they slow; and slow doesn’t affect stomping/ressing I feel that niche is gone.
In terms of raw party damage a lot of classes can deal considerably more AoE damage and offer more CC so WHY would i be there. Also the lack of runes choices I can take (traveler to become a fast slug instead of a slug) don’t offer much diversity either.

In my opinion the guardian has become a sort of “balanced all round”, doesn’t do much spiky damage anymore and beats the enemy by tiring them, has a considerable amount of defensive capabilities yet fails to offer something in high level pvp.
Maybe the damage is a direct correlation to the weapons’ skill. I feel atm no weapon per se has the capabilities to deal great damages as for example mesmer gs4 + 3 or as the longbow 2 used to hit (for example)

If I were to chose between a guardian and an engi while going against competent players I’d choose the engi just because I fail to see what the guardian could offer than the engi could not.

What do you guys feel about this, what are your opinions, any hints or insight as to where the guardian belongs?

Guardians offer nothing unique to organized play

A guardian cannot bunker, cannot roam better than a thief or Mesmer, cannot heal or sustain like an ele and druid

Whats worse is they go down VERY fast when focused. its funny how quickly a thief or warrior can nuke down a guardian.

If your Shelter or F2/F3 is interrupted = dead guardian, period.

Thief jumping from behind = dead guardian.

F2 is actually more of a 50/50 since half the time I go down midflight when focused.

All in all, the guard is great for stomping newbs but when it comes to competent players they are average

ESL and progame lvl = guardian is worthless

pspshadowman.2701:

Guardian
- boon share

Wait… we can do that? Oh wait, isn’t that called a Revenant?
This “boon share” of ours is kind of a silly joke. Well at least we can drop some mad stabs on our team, that I can get behind.

Rodzynald.5897:

pspshadowman.2701:

Guardian
- boon share

Wait… we can do that? Oh wait, isn’t that called a Revenant?
This “boon share” of ours is kind of a silly joke. Well at least we can drop some mad stabs on our team, that I can get behind.

Honestly, Revenant should never have been made and the time spent on it should have been used for making an additional elite spec per class. Revenant basically stole things that other classes did.

Honestly, Revenant should never have been made and the time spent on it should have been used for making an additional elite spec per class. Revenant basically stole things that other classes did.

They needed to sell HoT, adding a new class was the cherry.

Maybe guardians can still share aegis (?) which should be something better considering that with the AoE spam 1 stack of aegis is pretty much worthless.

holychampion.7386:

Honestly, Revenant should never have been made and the time spent on it should have been used for making an additional elite spec per class. Revenant basically stole things that other classes did.

They needed to sell HoT, adding a new class was the cherry.

Maybe guardians can still share aegis (?) which should be something better considering that with the AoE spam 1 stack of aegis is pretty much worthless.

Aegis on it’s own isn’t very good, but the guardian has a lot of ways to give it and there are several traits that either proc aegis in certain situations or make it do other things (heal/dmg). Running a Menders’ amulet can get “Pure of Heart” to make aegis procs heal for 1170hp.

I think with the Core Virtues buffs guards got at the start of the season, Core Guard offers a lot of team support. I gave up on DH early in the season because it just wasn’t working for me, and now run a build like this in PvP:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAre8el8AhShYtQwVIwPEHMEVu+yv97WsNQAgrgJYEA-TZBHAB1XGAgjAAuPAge2fosTAAA

This lets me offer superior condition removal/boon share/damage mitigation for my team, and surprisingly good healing. I wouldn’t say it’s healing on par with a Druid or Ele, maybe, but Aegis/Protection in the build also do a fair bit of damage mitigation. I will say though that this build sucks hard at 1v1 situations, so you have to try and be in as many teamfights as possible to maximize your potential.

The problem I see with that build is that it offers null offensive capabilities, and as you said, its healing is not on par with a druid/ele. Contrary to said classes this will suck in 1v1 as stated by you, either by succumbing to permanent DPS or CC. Given you chose a “shout” focus you are missing the healing from the symbol gm trait reducing even more the healing you could get. Plus the radius which “sharing traits” have in the guardian are minimal contrary to ele which can share boons on a 600 range.

Not trying to be mean as I main guard and want to see this class have its niche but I don’t see this build shining in pvp to be honest, less against organized peeps.. It offers nothing compared to what the druid and the ele can give.

Having challenges lots of builds (medi trap / bunker dh / bunker vanilla / burn vanilla / burn dh), having carrefully looked at esl tournaments and latest tournaments managed by helseth and sid) I came to the conclusion that dh brings nothing worth.
It is by far the weakest prof…yes far behind revenants who still have an important role in teamfights.

Donc waste tour time with this prof…Karl designed it in à lazzy way…ranger vanilla 2.0.
I switched to ele thief mesmer engi and ranger. This is à blast how things suddenly get managable.

Guardian: Cancer share.

NumenorLord.6539, it is, but thats the balance needed to make guardian gimmickly as other classes have their gimmick options as well.

Guardian w/o traps or meditations it is a bad build cause it gets killed easilly so players need to play with what Anet enforces.

Aeolus.3615:

NumenorLord.6539, it is, but thats the balance needed to make guardian gimmickly as other classes have their gimmick options as well.

Guardian w/o traps or meditations it is a bad build cause it gets killed easilly so players need to play with what Anet enforces.

I main a Guardian and LOVE the class. Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to put down anyone who plays a Guardian in PvP. You argument is good, it’s what we have so we use it. But we all have to admit that having more than 1 DH trapper sitting on one point is really annoying and a guaranteed senseless death ak.kitten. The main issue here is matchmaking, not DH.

holychampion.7386:

Honestly, Revenant should never have been made and the time spent on it should have been used for making an additional elite spec per class. Revenant basically stole things that other classes did.

They needed to sell HoT, adding a new class was the cherry.

Maybe guardians can still share aegis (?) which should be something better considering that with the AoE spam 1 stack of aegis is pretty much worthless.

Guardians can share both aegis and retal, with intermittent sharing of regen and other boons.

tangent:
Diviner’s Retal share guard is the highest damage output build I’ve ever run in sPvP, especially once you count the fact that retal placed on other players doesn’t count towards the guard’s damage.

Crinn.7864:

holychampion.7386:

Honestly, Revenant should never have been made and the time spent on it should have been used for making an additional elite spec per class. Revenant basically stole things that other classes did.

They needed to sell HoT, adding a new class was the cherry.

Maybe guardians can still share aegis (?) which should be something better considering that with the AoE spam 1 stack of aegis is pretty much worthless.

Guardians can share both aegis and retal, with intermittent sharing of regen and other boons.

tangent:
Diviner’s Retal share guard is the highest damage output build I’ve ever run in sPvP, especially once you count the fact that retal placed on other players doesn’t count towards the guard’s damage.

Place the build link if you want or elaborate on that aspect on the guardian.

However, that strays off from the topic, unless the hypothethical role of the guardian was to be a damage sponge while making enemies kill themselves.
The idea of retaliation always sounded clunky, specially since guardians are on the low hp classes. Then again, as a party bruiser I’d go for a necro or warrior which would most certainly be more effective and provide more party support.

holychampion.7386:

Crinn.7864:

holychampion.7386:

Honestly, Revenant should never have been made and the time spent on it should have been used for making an additional elite spec per class. Revenant basically stole things that other classes did.

They needed to sell HoT, adding a new class was the cherry.

Maybe guardians can still share aegis (?) which should be something better considering that with the AoE spam 1 stack of aegis is pretty much worthless.

Guardians can share both aegis and retal, with intermittent sharing of regen and other boons.

tangent:
Diviner’s Retal share guard is the highest damage output build I’ve ever run in sPvP, especially once you count the fact that retal placed on other players doesn’t count towards the guard’s damage.

Place the build link if you want or elaborate on that aspect on the guardian.

However, that strays off from the topic, unless the hypothethical role of the guardian was to be a damage sponge while making enemies kill themselves.
The idea of retaliation always sounded clunky, specially since guardians are on the low hp classes. Then again, as a party bruiser I’d go for a necro or warrior which would most certainly be more effective and provide more party support.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAR5en8cCFditCBmCB8Dhl5BT++1/GgX3rH1MoqBkACAA-TZBFQBFZ/BC8EAiwBBwglBAwFAAA

No it’s not a sponge. But yes it trolls the crap out of cleave builds, because it gives explody aegis and 100% retal uptime to everyone in your vicinity. Bit squishy though, gotta be good with those cooldowns.

Sadly the current murderfest meta is not very friendly to glass guardian builds. The retal share build works a lot better in previous seasons that it does now.

There is no class that is useless; only useless players. Any class if played properly by a pro is lethal. And you need a balance of team composition to win any match. Try look at things from eagle view. =x

the aim of conquest (GW2’s pvp mode) is to hold points.
dragon hunter was pretty much made for that imho!
traps are deadly and will punish anyone who dares assault your points.

I would rather like aegis not to block damage, but to absorb damage. It wouldn’t make you immune to CC, but for example one aegis could soak in about 5k of damage from all sources. This is like a few strong auto attacks or a good crit one shot out of a strong skill.
I think if aegis worked in that way, it would definitely work out better for some bunker builds.
Also I wonder why some players shout at guardian’s healing. Our passive healing is weak (from traits) and most of our stronger heals have to be activated manually. Though healing trap is strong, you still need someone to walk into it and in 1v1 situations when someone knows how it is, such person won’t get into close range when DH is damaged under 50% health.

P.S.
I honestly miss times before HoT. Mediguardian with GS and scepter/focus or shield was a real balanced beast, true risk reward. If you went in at the right moment and used CD’s right, you won. If you made a grevious mistake, you went down, simple as that.
Most of current pvp is too forgiving.

yLoon.5289:

There is no class that is useless; only useless players. Any class if played properly by a pro is lethal. And you need a balance of team composition to win any match. Try look at things from eagle view. =x

I don’t get what you tried to add to the current conversation with your reply to be honest. We all know any class if played properly can be lethal but on the same level of expertise there are certain classes which excel in a particular role. Your comment added nothing of value to the conversation or I’m too dumb to get it

Liewec.2896:

the aim of conquest (GW2’s pvp mode) is to hold points.
dragon hunter was pretty much made for that imho!
traps are deadly and will punish anyone who dares assault your points.

I’d like to expand on that further if I’m allowed. I agree with you, DHs are really good at defending points 1 on 1. The problem lies in their mobility for that use.
For example: unless the enemy charged to the cap you’re in atm, to get in time to the cap before it’s taken you will most likely have used blinding flash and judge’s intervention so you arrive at a great disadvantage.
If the enemy charges planning a 2v2 battle there are classes which are far superiior to the guardian in small and big fights. The mesmer for example which can add incredible AoE pressure, or the warrior with single target pressure.
The DH per se isn’t as bursty as to land such pressure on a downed target for example and preventing it from being ressed by a druid or engi.
If the enemy charges onto a bigger fight we are back at the initial scenario a big group fight where most classes will offer whatever the DHs can offer and a bit more.

Basicaly you’re left with the option to defend 1 cap while being there which will cause a 4v5 scenario thus not contributing to the team or at least that’s my opinion on the issue at hand.

Rodzynald.5897:

I would rather like aegis not to block damage, but to absorb damage. It wouldn’t make you immune to CC, but for example one aegis could soak in about 5k of damage from all sources. This is like a few strong auto attacks or a good crit one shot out of a strong skill.
I think if aegis worked in that way, it would definitely work out better for some bunker builds.
Also I wonder why some players shout at guardian’s healing. Our passive healing is weak (from traits) and most of our stronger heals have to be activated manually. Though healing trap is strong, you still need someone to walk into it and in 1v1 situations when someone knows how it is, such person won’t get into close range when DH is damaged under 50% health.

P.S.
I honestly miss times before HoT. Mediguardian with GS and scepter/focus or shield was a real balanced beast, true risk reward. If you went in at the right moment and used CD’s right, you won. If you made a grevious mistake, you went down, simple as that.
Most of current pvp is too forgiving.

Agreed. If they were to modify aegis and work on trait placements the guardian would get a nice role contributing to its name. Making it a party damage mitigator would be an interesting thing to see. However as it does not exist now this is straying off from the topic.

See here, choosing Engineer over Guardian is fine, but you mustn’t overlook what class this competent player is playing, and also you must consider how many opposing members are countering your build. Hence comes with my comment on “balance of team composition”.sPvP is a teamwork game, your view in all while however encourage on solo way of playing.

For instance, Engr can’t hold point against Ele, but Guard’s symbol build are able to.
Question is, are you still gonna choose Engr IF there are two Eles on opposing team?
There is too many possibilities in choosing classes in a match.
The discussion should be on how to harmonize your build with team mate and countering opposing team’s build, not on how to define the role of a class. Overlooking the overall view of team composition is the first step in losing a match.

DH is an alternative when compared w rev/warrior.

it has better 1v1 than rev, but worse teamfight (rev has more cc & cleave).
it’s value vs warrior really depends on the team comps of both teams. it’s very strong v thief & mesmer so it has value there.

OP i would take a look at helseth’s tournament to see how DH performs in a team setting. also, you’ve forgotten that engi & druid have insane res power, and that’s why they are slotted so much.

====

@eveyone playing a support guardian
yo, it’s just worse than ele/druid/menders engi. it has poor 1v1 & worse team support & worse ress power.
symbolic is an ok 1v1 troll, but pure bunk w shouts is a joke.