Guild Wars 2

This might seem like a stupid question, but I think it lies at the core of a lot of debate and can resolve a lot of questions about what should happen with the profession.

I think there are two sides to this, a thematic and a mechanical side.

Thematically Guardians are Magic Knights (leaning towards Paladins, which are a subset of Magic Knights). They combine melee combat with some sort of magic. Our magic is of the defensive kind, protection both ourselves and our allies. There is a little offensive magic available to use, but it pails in comparison to our protective options. I think this focus on defense fits our profession pretty good and shines through in most of our abilities. This is something that will probably make me disagree with people who want to play something like what D&D calls an “Avenging Paladin”. I don’t think that fits the theme of a Guardian as well as protecting your allies.

Another core theme is that of a tactician. I don’t mean actually leading a group (although that can be part of it, as evidenced by pretty much every commander in my realms’ WvWvW being a Guardian), but that we have the feel and flavor of someone who directs the flow of combat. This shines through with our area-denial skills (Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Symbols, Consecrations…) and our Shouts, which are clearly flavored after someone giving orders and supporting a team.

Mechanically, I think there are a couple of things that define a Guardian (but aren’t necessarily exclusive to our profession):

• We should direct the flow of battle (area-denial)
• We should have less ways of escaping a fight (frontline commanders), but enough ways to enter a fight and keep our opponent there.
• We should protect and help our team.
• We should be better in the thick of combat than looking at it from afar.
• We should be able to survive a brawl to make up for our low chance of retreating quickly (This also means we are allowed to retreat slowly and inefficiently).

Looking at it in this ways, it’s easier to answer some questions that people have been discussing.

Examples:

Q: Should Shield of Judgment be swapped with Shield of Wrath?
A: Not necessarily. While Shield of Judgment has it’s issues, the Shield is mainly a defensive weapon. Guardians are magical warriors that protect their allies and this is shown in Shield of Judgment. Shield of Wrath is more offensive and fits the Focus better, as it’s main use is offensive with some “selfish” defense as a bonus.

Q: Should Merciful Intervention be ground-targeted?
A: Making Merciful Intervention ground-targeted gives the Guardian an easy way out of combat, which Guardians shouldn’t have. Merciful Intervention needs to be changed, but not in that direction.

The main benefit of taking this approach is that you stop talking about individual skills and abilities and start looking at the bigger picture. It also makes it easier to see the meta-disagreements that bog down arguments in here.

I’m not saying that this is the only way to see a Guardian. It’s how I see the profession and it influences what I expect from it and what I want to see changed. Your view of the Guardian can be different, but it can be helpful to spell it out in a disagreement to avoid being dragged down in arguing in the margin.

(Apologies for the rough post, I spend a significant amount of time finetuning this post and then something bad happened to my browser so I just typed up what I wanted to say.)

When I first rolled a guardian I thought it would be something like a knight similar to a paladin in the sense that it uses some form of magic, giving not only himself but others boons as well. I got the nagging feeling a lot of this potential is wasted PvE-wise by the time I will hit 80, but I could be wrong. I can’t really give any other input other then that I agree with your post, I feel it nails one of the problems the class has.

Pretty much agree with the points made by the OP.

Really the guardian just needs some quality changes.

1: There are ALLOT of traits that range from being under powered, gimmicky or just plain stupidly under performing. (meta traits are more or less alright, just all the others are bad)

2: A few of the weapons have skills that could use tweaks to make them perform better & or be more enjoyable to use (changing shield of judgment to an AOE centered on the guardian for instance, or speeding up the hammer chain but reducing the pulses on symbol of protection.)

3: A few of the utility skills could use some improvements.

4: Improvements for staying on your enemy in Spvp-WvW (they want guardians to be melee fine, they want them to get in combat and stay there fine, but guardians need a way to keep enemies in range once they reach them. A cripple added to a couple of gap closers would work wonders.)

There are lots of little examples I could give but the list is fairly long.

Perhaps make one of the Grand Master traits in Zeal offer cripple, so that a medi would be forced to go 6/-/6/-/-

I just feel that Cripple (assuming it procs quite often) would break the Guardian one way or another..

Saiyan.1704:

Perhaps make one of the Grand Master traits in Zeal offer cripple, so that a medi would be forced to go 6/-/6/-/-

I just feel that Cripple (assuming it procs quite often) would break the Guardian one way or another..

I don’t think this discussion (What is a Guardian? What should they be?) works for deciding how a certain issue should be solved. You can use it do decide what should be done (Guardians could use a Cripple), but not to decide how it should be done.

I think the case can be made for a Cripple (or a Chill, but that’s significantly stronger) by looking at the Guardian as a frontline fighter who should have ways to keep others in combat. This is a trade-off for not being able to escape a fight.

If you want to talk implementation, which I kinda want to discourage here, I would tie the Cripple or Chill to our Symbols or something. This fits the “tactician” by giving the Guardian an extra way to decide where the fighting goes on and makes applying it harder. (Symbols are often very telegraphed, can be dodged out of and can be easily avoided if you’re not in them.) The Staff might be somewhat problematic with this approach though, but I don’t think it would be bad enough because the Staff has enough other issues preventing it from becoming a premier PvP weapon.

Even if “supporting/defense” is the theme of a guardian, that shouldn’t exclude them from being able to join the meta / having similar qualities (disengage, cripple/chill) of other classes. If guardian is purely a support class in the eyes of Anet, GW2 should be remade as a trinity MMO imo.

Guardians can still keep their image while gaining access to reliable cripple, and I see symbols as being a good means.

Currently there are 4 different symbols (staff, GS, hammer and mace). I was thinking that a trait that effected each one differently might work well. Chill on GS symbol, cripple on hammer, weakness on mace and immob on staff. Might be and interesting way to incorporate some CC into our class concept.

Sylpheed.8163:

Even if “supporting/defense” is the theme of a guardian, that shouldn’t exclude them from being able to join the meta / having similar qualities (disengage, cripple/chill) of other classes. If guardian is purely a support class in the eyes of Anet, GW2 should be remade as a trinity MMO imo.

Why? They’ve long ago said that damage/support/control is their trinity. Not healing/damage/tanking. Guardians are an extremely strong support and defensive class already, and is why we’re so popular in all game modes.

Rangersix.1754:

Sylpheed.8163:

Even if “supporting/defense” is the theme of a guardian, that shouldn’t exclude them from being able to join the meta / having similar qualities (disengage, cripple/chill) of other classes. If guardian is purely a support class in the eyes of Anet, GW2 should be remade as a trinity MMO imo.

Why? They’ve long ago said that damage/support/control is their trinity. Not healing/damage/tanking. Guardians are an extremely strong support and defensive class already, and is why we’re so popular in all game modes.

yet guardian have to sacrifice more than any other class to come even close to accomplishing what any other class can do. their “strong support” may be the “best”, but other classes can support very well without giving a lot as well. pigeonholed class is pigeonholed.

A guardian is sadly a target practice for the long range users, go med you survive but die fast after 1 2 one after another of course go bunker you just poke the other player while they kill your team and then they just choke you down

Make Mace/Shield viable for PvE and I’ll be happy to play Guardian with the look of a Guardian. Still Zerker, but I’ll sure look like a Guardian

A plate armor skinned (not getting the actual damage reduction) rogue, with out the stealthing.

Apolo.5942:

A plate armor skinned (not getting the actual damage reduction) rogue, with out the stealthing.

What is with you being so negative lately? I’ll give everything to have my main, necromancer, to be viable in all 3 modes.

I always saw us as a frontliner meler with support, but TBH the duration of our support abilities are rather short, the effects rather weak and they double over what other classes already do.

About the only unique ability we have is Aegis. Everything else can be done by another class and in many cases better.

I think each class needs more unique features to help define them. Guardians are very overshadowed by Warriors, who just seem more effective in the role of frontliner because their different buffs last longer, are on shorter CD and do more things at once. Not to mention their huge health pool gives them much better gear options.

IMHO we are excellent at holding a point in SPVP, and this is the reason we do not get a buff, but in other aspects of the game we are overshadowed by Warrior, which is just better at meleing.

Relentliss.2170:

I think each class needs more unique features to help define them. Guardians are very overshadowed by Warriors, who just seem more effective in the role of frontliner because their different buffs last longer, are on shorter CD and do more things at once. Not to mention their huge health pool gives them much better gear options.

I saw Warriors are more offensive-focused, and to an extent, that is still true. But Warrior are very capable of staying alive in the front line and and have plenty of options to retreat and switch to ranged combat. After playing a Warrior for a bit (only level 20 and only in WvWvW) I think the biggest difference is that the Warrior has a lot more mobility than the Guardian. Which is fine. Warriors should be different form Guardians and mobility is a decent way to differentiate professions. But Warriors can be effective pretty much all the time, while Guardians need to work hard to make sure their blows land. (Based on my impression playing both professions.)

Ynna.8769:

I saw Warriors are more offensive-focused, and to an extent, that is still true. But Warrior are very capable of staying alive in the front line and and have plenty of options to retreat and switch to ranged combat. After playing a Warrior for a bit (only level 20 and only in WvWvW) I think the biggest difference is that the Warrior has a lot more mobility than the Guardian. Which is fine. Warriors should be different form Guardians and mobility is a decent way to differentiate professions. But Warriors can be effective pretty much all the time, while Guardians need to work hard to make sure their blows land. (Based on my impression playing both professions.)

I don’t really feel like our defensive offerings to the party are really class defining. They are just a whole lot of abilities that other classes can offer to themselves, but I can dish them out on a short duration to a group. If I was the ONLY source of something on the battlefield, like Mesmers and Ele’s are with some of their abilities, I would feel that Guardian was important as a supporter. As it stands, I don’t feel that way. Yeah, I’m supportive, but is my support making a big difference? Would the 5 person party be better with 2 guardians and 3 warriors or just 5 warriors? The 5 warriors can just personally buff themselves with the same things I am bringing them.

I was talking about the “Platonic ideal” Guardian. What a Guardian should be, not what it is. A Guardian should make a difference to its team with defensive abilities.

In PvP we can sometimes already make that difference.