Guild Wars 2

I realize the ability is the staple of the Great Sword and is in a very good place as it is for PvE, but I feel like it is supremely lackluster in PvP. The problem here is two-fold.

First of all, the Whirl causes you to slow down, almost spinning in place, so your target has time to avoid a majority if not all of your damage. The second issue is the projectiles, and to be honest, I’m not really sure why these are even part of the ability. These projectiles are completely random and are more likely to hit secondary and tertiary targets rather than your primary target. In PvE that can aggro additional mobs that you may not have intended to pull, and in PvP you are losing valuable damage.

I know that in order to maximize WW’s damage, you can stand “inside” of your target, but this opportunity is next to impossible to capitalize on in PvP and in PvE it just feels somewhat gimmicky. The Whirl is a melee ability for all intents and purposes, so it should be able to attain maximum damage without having to rely on the completely random component of its projectiles.

Obviously there are ways to trait and skill in order to improve your chances of landing a full WW on a target in PvP, but the sacrifices in utility that you have to make in order to fully utilize the potential of a weapon’s staple are simply not worth it.

So, perhaps two suggestions for Whirling Wrath:

Since we have no intrinsic snares to keep our targets in place (outside of, I believe, a signet), it seems logical to me that WW should not slow your movement speed. It is hard enough to keep a target in range with the GS, especially considering how easy it is for other players to dodge roll away from BB or a leap. I don’t believe this would lead to any imbalances.

Second suggestion, remove the projectiles from WW entirely, but keep the Whirl finisher. You still get that random “fiery bolt” or “condition removal” finisher from it, but you don’t have to worry about connecting with (random) projectiles from a melee focused ability. In order to compensate for the missing damage of a full WW “inside” the target, simply fold the projectile damage into the base damage of the whirl. If this damage proves to be too high, then reduce it by an appropriate percentage.

I personally love the GS and would love to see it get more PvP viability. I find myself wanting to use the Hammer in its stead, simply because you can keep a target in melee range, which after all is said and done, is what you need to do to be an efficient melee profession. Using the Hammer as your second weapon set is an “ok” fix for this problem, but it seems silly to have to use an entirely separate weapon to actually land a WW against a skilled opponent.

I am completely open to criticism here and I hope this sparks some constructive conversation. Thank you all for the read.

Animus

Edit: Adding in a lore factor here, if it helps.

The Guardian is a stalwart defender or a zealous persecutor (or maybe a few other archetypes, but those are the two that come immediately to my mind). They strike with precision and focused minds. They do not have the mindset of a Warrior who strikes brashly and recklessly, chaotically leaping into the fray. The Guardian does not embody the random nature of the Mesmer, a profession that relies on illusions and the random nature of reality to defeat its opponents.

For the Guardian to have an ability that is somewhat random in nature goes against the core philosophy of the profession. Randomness and burst are not aspects of the Guardian, steady and reliable damage from consistent sources serve the Guardian’s purpose much better.

I can agree that the projectile damage from Whirling Wrath isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. For what it does, it’s more problem than it’s worth as there are times where it will randomly hit a mob you’re not fighting and aggro it on you when you don’t want it to.

As for landing a solid Whirling Wrath, might I recommend since you’ve got your Hammer as your backup weapon: Ring of Warding > Banish > Mighty Blow > Swap to Greatsword > (Sigil of Wrath >?) Whirling Wrath. That’ll kill most things I would think.

Each weapon has their own uses in each place. Greatsword I find is slightly better for PvE, but it can work in PvP.

It doesn’t really matter that Whirlwing Wrath slows you down as it can easily be dodged out of anyway.

@ ShadowbaneX: I agree that the Hammer paired with GS can be deadly, but you are relying on two different weapon sets and a utility skill or two just to make one ability land effectively. If WW pulled off the kind of numbers that HB did, I could see this making a bit more sense. As it stands currently, its damage is too low to justify that amount of synergy and opportunity costs.

@ Morelia: Then why does it slow you at all? If an enemy dodges out of a WW and you are slowed by doing it, you are essentially crippling yourself. Any ranged enemy will thank you kindly. If an enemy is going to dodge the WW, so be it, that is why dodging is in the game. Having the slow tied to it makes the WW almost more of a hindrance than a weapon in most cases.

OP got the whole shabam down. I agree 100%

I’ve always wondered why our spinny skill slows us down while warriors/thieves’ spinny skills do not.

Also why do warriors have a 5 second invulnerable utility skill where they can move/act on a 90s cooldown whereas Guardians have a 3 second invulnerable elite skill where they cannot move/act with mediocre benefits [renewing virtues].

/mad Guardian

Was hoping to see some more support behind this idea. Shameless bump.

Just be aware that every update will have a nerf to this profession. Soon we’ll all be Warriors instead.

Arken.3725:

Just be aware that every update will have a nerf to this profession. Soon we’ll all be Warriors instead.

There’s no reason for this pessimism. Our issues can’t be fixed with simple number changes, they’re more structural than that.

How ww works is it makes a pulsing aoe around you which constantly ticks for damage, as well as the projectiles. If you stand inside your target and land every single projectile (there are 7 of them I believe) then the projectiles still only count for about 1/3 of the total damage, with the pulsing aoe damage counting for about 2/3. It would be nice if you could move at normal move speed while channeling it, but the projectiles really arent that big of an issue, they are kinda like a bonus

AlphaDuck.7592:

How ww works is it makes a pulsing aoe around you which constantly ticks for damage, as well as the projectiles. If you stand inside your target and land every single projectile (there are 7 of them I believe) then the projectiles still only count for about 1/3 of the total damage, with the pulsing aoe damage counting for about 2/3. It would be nice if you could move at normal move speed while channeling it, but the projectiles really arent that big of an issue, they are kinda like a bonus

1/3 is quite a bit. Imagine if you had a trait option that said “increases your Whirling Wrath damage by 33%”. I’m no math wiz but tell me you wouldn’t pick that up in a heartbeat.

Arken.3725:

Just be aware that every update will have a nerf to this profession. Soon we’ll all be Warriors instead.

I’ve said it in previous posts and this guy juts it right back out into the open. Guardians (mainly ones on the attack) are like another MMO’s Vanilla RetPaladins right now. Laughed at for not being Warriors, and hated/complained about when we do well. Only the few will stick with them, work against the grain, and be feared. We few, we proud, proud few.

I love the idea, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. Hope this gets some attention from the right people.

I only agree with OP on the part about projectiles. If you remember WW used to be stationary and I find it fine right now. I would replace the projectiles with pulses so we still have some aoe. I think projectiles are around 1200 or 900 range and they are annoying when they hit a random mob which you didn’t want it to hit. So make the pulses 600 and cut down the damage compared to projectiles by ~20%(maybe even more it should be tested a bit). Now the only thing that I’d like to see is reduce the time we spin by ~20% to increase the burst and leaving less time to dodge or just walk out.

Nah, if anything WW needs to aggro things better. It takes too long to clear out a large group of mobs because they don’t necessary aggro on you from 1200 range and the projectiles are unreliable.

Guardians already tear through large groups with no effort so aggroing more almost always = better since it gives more xp and loot in less time.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Nah, if anything WW needs to aggro things better. It takes too long to clear out a large group of mobs because they don’t necessary aggro on you from 1200 range and the projectiles are unreliable.

Guardians already tear through large groups with no effort so aggroing more almost always = better since it gives more xp and loot in less time.

I am primarily concerned from a PvP perspective, rather than PvE. I don’t think a melee-centric weapon should be your go to long range AoE aggro device. It even has Binding Blade for that purpose, albeit not 1200 range.

To whoever mentioned it, I also wasn’t aware that the move used to be stationary. If that is the case, it seems ANet’s current philosophy on the ability is to be able to track after your target, since we can move while channeling it now. So why slow us down? In PvE, this serves no pivotal purpose. I can only assume the reasoning is to keep us from chasing a target down effectively in PvP.

To that end, I ask why? I think the GS should be a truly viable weapon in a PvP setting (whether it be WvW or sPvP). To those who use the GS in PvP with success, I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but there are, without question, better options to suit the same purpose. I would like to see the GS be brought up to those standards and I think a change to WW would be a good first step.

I really don’t want to see this thread die and I’m sure there are other people who agree with some of my points. I’m surprised this topic has not encouraged more discussion. In any case, last shameless bump.

Honestly it’s by no fault of yours or other people. I think people en masse are getting tired of asking for help or revision with little to no response from ANET in the negative or the affirmative.

Didn’t even bother to read the suggestions…
Just root if you want to whirling wrath someone down…
As for the projectile, you can easily stack on your target with a root… T_T
Don’t ask for a change to a unique ability to become exactly like a warrior 2 1 hand axes #5 skill (forgot the name).
If you can’t use it right, don’t use it.

And one last time to make sure people understand… ROOOOOOOOOOOOOT (Or stun for all that it matters)

I think Anet still has plenty of things to resolve and that they they’re probably working pretty hard on things, but can’t just go around promising things. If they did they’d cause an even more problems with people saying “well you said this in the forums, so why isn’t it fixed yet?”

Even important fixes can still take a week or two to go live. You think some people complaining about something which is probably the most used weapons on one of the most used (and one of the strongest) classes is going to get instant attention?

The Guardian might lack some range, and isn’t nearly as quick as some of the other classes, but is otherwise a rock solid class that can go anywhere and not have to worry about surviving running into a couple of veterans, let alone the average mob. There’s plenty more to work on besides a perceived lack in Whirling Wrath.

Having an entire build set up to land one skill effectively is a horrible idea. One trick ponies are never a good idea. Hilarious on the off chance it works, but 9 times out of 10 you’re hamstringing yourself unnecessarily.

I agree with the OP. Not to downplay this particular issue with the GreatSword at all, but there are other Guardian weapons that need to be looked at first.

you can actually use the dodge key while WW is active and it will greatly increase your movement speed in the direction of the dodge, however it cannot be controlled once you dodge you just go in a straight line which introduces a whole new problem of hitting mobs/players, so it really wont fix anything.

I use a combo of GS and Shield/sword. The way I have my traits setup is for pure DPS. I many times will go in the middle of 15 ppl and kill almost all of them. When I fight one on one I will open with GS then use my shield/one handed. I have not once had any issues with this build. After messing with multiple traits, and researching online what other ppls ideas were, I must say, I am very pleased with my build.

traits are 20/25/0/20/5