Guild Wars 2

I mean, it is not like it is been not asked since day 1 or that guardians aren’t the only class with out an easily accessible trait of it.

The reason we’ve been giving is that Arenanet doesn’t want to give Guardians a good way to disengage from combat.

How on earth is 25% passive move speed a disengage tool when every other class has already access to and uses it and we get it through one of our 2 mandatory set of runes?

You have missed the devs talk about profession balance in the video about … 7 months ago? Devs were pretty clear in that video update about this. Ask all you want, it’s not happening. Guardian class concept is get in, stay in and be last out; Runspeed is not needed for that concept. No, I’m not just making this up. If I had the video link, I would post it so you could see for yourself. It’s also the same reason we don’t have strong ranged weapon.

I remember that video long ago. Still doesn’t make jive with me. It would make sense if you made a profession slow and had terrible ranged weaponry but you would have to compensate by increasing that professions self-sustain. This would make sense but sadly, it’s not the case.

Even with +25% run speed you are not going to be disengaging on a guardian. Maybe if you run sword/GS you could portal to something with sword and jump away, but without a great deal of luck I doubt you will disengage a very high % of the time.

It’s not the speed, it’s the lack of hard and soft CCs. We have the tools to get the target (teleports, leaps, swiftness, and even runes if you choose so) However, it’s difficult to say on target. Why you wouldn’t give an almost pure melee class some of these tools is beyond me. Look at Warrior, they are a melee class and have no problem, that’s because they actually have the right tools to stay in melee combat.

I don’t really care about not having tools to disengage. Anet even said, Guards are the first in and last out. Just gives us the proper melee tools like Warrior has.

Both soft cc and mobility are sorely needed on a dps guardian.

There are good ways to do it. Cripple on movement skills (flashing blade, leap of faith) have been good suggestions in the past. For swiftness we could use high application low duration traits that are perfect for not being able to disengage but still hold some combat mobility. Or a conditional movement speed trait.

There are 8 classes in this game, 7 of which have access to movement speed or swiftness in traits. It cannot be a class concept to the only one with ZERO access through traits. And what’s worst is the two forms of swiftness the guardian has, shouts and SoS, are tied more to defensive builds and don’t fit at all in a medi build.

And people will take anything anet says to validate themselves. For some reason, the merciful intervention decision to only port to allies so guardians don’t have disengage was interpreted as having something to do with movement speed. And if anet really thought that way they wouldn’t have dropped the cooldown on retreat. Problem is, it’s a band-aid that doesn’t fix the core issue.

Shanks.2907:

Both soft cc and mobility are sorely needed on a dps guardian.

Just playing Devil’s Advocate here …

1. What makes people think that DPS is part of the Guardian concept, or even that DPS is a conceptual ‘thing’ to begin with.
2. Even if it is a ‘thing’ why do players conclude runspeed is sorely needed for that concept?

My thinking on this is that the Guardian concept is simple … team support. From that sense, I can see why runspeed isn’t necessary for the class to fill its conceptual role … almost necessary to be relied on to be in immediate team vicinity. I don’t think that’s too far off what the devs are thinking here.

My thinking on Crowd Control is a little different though again, I can see why it’s not necessary. If you are a team supporting profession, it is your team that is a source of tools you might be deficient in.

Choosing a profession isn’t just about the idea of playing something that has pets or using bows. The concept of that class comes along with it. Better description of what a class does is where I think Anet needs to make better implementation for New Player Intro … which they haven’t.

@Obtena: If the Guardians aren’t supposed to do DPS, they should change all the traits and skills that don’t provide team support. There’s no point in allowing Meditation Guardians to be a viable build if that doesn’t fit the Guardian class concept.

You’re normally more intelligent than this. Do you really believe Guardians should only be allowed to be good at team support? That Guardians should only be allowed to be effective when they’re surrounded by allies?

And even if we grant your premise, we’d still need runspeed, because lagging behind your team isn’t going to give you the best chances to support them.

You’ve certainly put the support guardian on a pedestal Obtena. The very existence of meditation utilities is proof enough in the concept outside of support. While shouts and consecrations can be used for the team’s benefit, a meditation guardian is in nature very selfish. Built for 1v1/2v2 encounters and not larger team fights.

I’ve never understood why you’ve been so fixated on concept either. More than one class can do support well, why should that one class be limited to only support?

This game is constructed like a MOBA where different gear and traits gives you different roles. I’ve yet to see anything that changes this opinion. So if you spec and gear for it, dps should be one of your roles if you choose. The fact they have slowly increased the strength of Med builds would support this as well.

The funny thing is I don’t feel overly supportive by going full support. I feel like I could be doing more support on another class like Warrior or Ele

Ynna.8769:

@Obtena: If the Guardians aren’t supposed to do DPS, they should change all the traits and skills that don’t provide team support. There’s no point in allowing Meditation Guardians to be a viable build if that doesn’t fit the Guardian class concept.

You’re normally more intelligent than this. Do you really believe Guardians should only be allowed to be good at team support? That Guardians should only be allowed to be effective when they’re surrounded by allies?

And even if we grant your premise, we’d still need runspeed, because lagging behind your team isn’t going to give you the best chances to support them.

I didn’t say they shouldn’t do DPS… I said DPS is not a CONCEPT for a class in the sense that it’s a defining trait of what a class ‘does’. It’s like saying emotes is a class concept. Don’t read so much into what YOU think I think here. My perspective here is based on what Anet devs said about the concept of the Guardian class. That is all. It’s wholly irrelevant what I think this class should be; my point is simply that Guardians do not require runspeed to do what the devs intend for the concept of the class and that’s why we don’t have it (along with the fact that they already explained this). This isn’t meant to be an argument. I was under the impression the OP was legitimately unaware of why Guardians don’t have runspeed.

Shanks.2907:

You’ve certainly put the support guardian on a pedestal Obtena. …

I’ve never understood why you’ve been so fixated on concept either. More than one class can do support well, why should that one class be limited to only support?

I’m not putting anything on a pedestal … it’s what Guardians are DESIGNED to do through Anet devs OWN admittance. I’m fixated on the concept because its the only thing relevant to how the class works and what it’s meant to be good at.

Yeah, I’m not having this discussion again… I’m backing out if nothing more interesting gets said.

Arenanet are the people who ultimately decide on what a Guardian is capable of, but they’re not always right about what a Guardian should be capable of and even if they were they’re extremely inconsistent about it.

i kinda agree, geting in first, mitigating and soaking up the initial burst and being able to fight for a long time is what makes the guardian special to me.

there are rune of traveler (i think?) that gives +25%run speed on (6)

also,for pve, i use staff 3 with retreat and save your self for infinite swiftness….

I have no problem with the idea being the first in and the last out. How ever it brings little surprise given the constant train wreck balance has been in this game, that developers do not understand that for such thing to happen and you be the last out, you actually have to have the ability to stay there in the first place.

Also disengage is never about constant speed, specially so when everybody and their mother already moves at that speed. Is about CC and displacement(be it in the form of stealth, teleports, jumps or what ever have you). Which we have neither.

In fact the train wreck that is this game is kind of hard to understand. In pvp and Wvw the skills that matter the most are complete opposites in function (in general), are control work best in one and movement and displacement control work best in the other, how in gods name is it possible to mess something so mutually exclusive up.

Obtena.7952:

You have missed the devs talk about profession balance in the video about … 7 months ago? Devs were pretty clear in that video update about this. Ask all you want, it’s not happening. Guardian class concept is get in, stay in and be last out; Runspeed is not needed for that concept. No, I’m not just making this up. If I had the video link, I would post it so you could see for yourself. It’s also the same reason we don’t have strong ranged weapon.

Agree with your statement 100% and I also don’t have the link.

Only area for disagreement is that it seems other classes using lighter armor actually do a better job. Heavy armor does not for conditional damage or focus fire in global fights. Heck, even in smaller engagements it seems focus puts Guardians down faster than a ambient creature.

Edit: To the OP. Forget about the trait. Just use traveler runes if you want speed and then play the stat spread. If that doesn’t work you can also use the staff even though it is dog poo after their change. Could also use the moa feathers I guess.

I tend to agree in that the Guardian player base yields more to do certain things like dps, speed, etc. Then again I also believe that some players are just better or smarter and these things don’t impact them.

Traveler runes are okay and all, but not as the only option. They put a dent on the dps and limit build diversity. You can only choose 1 rune set, while there are 14 trait points. And as build defining runes have become it’s a slap in the face to be dependent on them for something every class has access to.

Apolo.5942:

Also disengage is never about constant speed, specially so when everybody and their mother already moves at that speed. Is about CC and displacement(be it in the form of stealth, teleports, jumps or what ever have you). Which we have neither.

This. Movement speed does not serve as the great escape tool that a teleport or rush skill does. It would have little to no effect on the escape skills we already have. Equipping traveler runes or gaining swiftness from an ally doesn’t make us escape artist all of a sudden. Case and point, look at how well necro does at disengaging with all of it’s swiftness and movement speed traits.

The thread itself is misleading … what is the actual complaint about if it’s not about having runspeed to choose engagement? If we don’t need runspeed, why complain we don’t have it? Is this one of those “players should get want they ask for, no matter what it is” threads?

I don’t believe that’s the case at all. As I’ve stated above, you can’t make a profession that’s slow, can’t control anything and has very little health all in one. It makes absolutely no sense. This is especially true if it’s a melee-centric profession.

Obtena.7952:

The thread itself is misleading … what is the actual complaint about if it’s not about having runspeed to choose engagement? If we don’t need runspeed, why complain we don’t have it? Is this one of those “players should get want they ask for, no matter what it is” threads?

I think Guardians should be able to choose their engagement more. Deciding when and where to fight is fundamental to a player’s enjoyment of pvp. It’s like your options have been taken out of your control and it frustrates people.

I can deal with it in spvp since it is all conquest. I can watch the map and decide where I might be the most use. But I don’t overly enjoy Guardian roaming since most people I am beating simply invisible and run away. And anyone who knows they have a good spec vs a Guardian simply slow you and force you to fight them. So I know I match up terrible to build X and want to avoid them, that power is taken out of my control. You are constantly forced to fight fights that you have little chance of winning and the fights you can win the person runs away and denies you that satisfaction. I am not seeing how that situation is fun gameplay. I don’t really think that a +25% run signet or trait will help but it would not hurt.

Just to add any other game I’ve played getting run speed parity was the equivalent of pvp parity. Guardian seems to lack this.

Obtena.7952:

The thread itself is misleading … what is the actual complaint about if it’s not about having runspeed to choose engagement? If we don’t need runspeed, why complain we don’t have it? Is this one of those “players should get want they ask for, no matter what it is” threads?

Who says we dont need it? The complaint is that making a rune set mandatory kills our build diversity. This is nothing new, this has always been the complaint about us lacking said trait.

Apolo.5942:

Obtena.7952:

The thread itself is misleading … what is the actual complaint about if it’s not about having runspeed to choose engagement? If we don’t need runspeed, why complain we don’t have it? Is this one of those “players should get want they ask for, no matter what it is” threads?

Who says we dont need it? The complaint is that making a rune set mandatory kills our build diversity. This is nothing new, this has always been the complaint about us lacking said trait.

Again, these complaints have been addressed by Anet’s concept for the class. If you want to make a case for why runspeed is needed despite the fact it’s not inline with their concept, then it needs to consider how the concept doesn’t work in the game. That’s going to be a pretty hard thing to do considering Guardians are very good at the role they have been designed to fill and that role does have a noticeable impact on success.

Arken.3725:

I don’t believe that’s the case at all. As I’ve stated above, you can’t make a profession that’s slow, can’t control anything and has very little health all in one. It makes absolutely no sense. This is especially true if it’s a melee-centric profession.

Yet people use Guardians successfully in PVP … how can that be?

Obtena.7952:

Arken.3725:

I don’t believe that’s the case at all. As I’ve stated above, you can’t make a profession that’s slow, can’t control anything and has very little health all in one. It makes absolutely no sense. This is especially true if it’s a melee-centric profession.

Yet people use Guardians successfully in PVP … how can that be?

Yet, Guardian is being phased out…how can that be?

edit: Gotta say Obtena, I expected better from you.

Phased out … that’s an interesting perspective. Are you suggesting that Guardian’s performance has actually dropped in PvP since the point they had lacked runspeed and that downgrade is an intentional move by Anet? I think that’s a difficult position to support; it would suggest that Guardians were actually better even without the runspeed in the past (which would challenge the whole notion it’s even needed now).

It’s my opinion that Guardians never had a very good source of selfbuffed runspeed, continue to fill the role Anet designed them for and that role is still very relevant. That doesn’t lead me to think the class is phasing out or that the ‘solution’ to whatever the problem is happens to be runspeed. I think we need a more fundamental range closer or grapple move but that’s not really the point.

edit: Gotta say, I’m giving you my best right now. If people think we need runspeed, the QQ about not having it after 2 years ain’t gonna do it. We’ve heard it, it’s been addressed. If it’s going to change, people need to think a little more about why we need it.

Well let me explain my position and you can offer a rebuttal. We all know DPS Guardian hasn’t seen the light of day in top-tier play due to a multitude of factors. Lack of:

Reliable dmg
Mobility
Controlling conditions
Less than average sustain with said dps builds.

And now i’ll explain why the Bunker Guardian is going to see the way of the dinosaurs. The one and most important thing a Guardian brings to a fight is the ability to revive far better than any other class. Why not just bring a Cele that not only sustains better but is more mobile and actually applies offensive pressure?

Edit: but it just makes absolutely no sense. What thought-process was involved when making the Guardian? Here’s a melee-centric class that can’t run, can’t control and has low health.

Edit again: If the whole point was to make a class “stand its ground” in a VERY mobile game, then that’s just terrible class design.

Arken.3725:

Well let me explain my position and you can offer a rebuttal. We all know DPS Guardian hasn’t seen the light of day in top-tier play due to a multitude of factors. Lack of:

Reliable dmg
Mobility
Controlling conditions
Less than average sustain with said dps builds.

And now i’ll explain why the Bunker Guardian is going to see the way of the dinosaurs. The one and most important thing a Guardian brings to a fight is the ability to revive far better than any other class. Why not just bring a Cele that not only sustains better but is more mobile and actually applies offensive pressure?

Edit: but it just makes absolutely no sense. What thought-process was involved when making the Guardian? Here’s a melee-centric class that can’t run, can’t control and has low health.

Edit again: If the whole point was to make a class “stand its ground” in a VERY mobile game, then that’s just terrible class design.

Im telling you guardians are thives with no venom, lower damage, no stealth, no ranged weapon. But we do get an average 1 block every 10 seconds or so…. Thou this thread was more oriented to WVW which is where move speed actually matters.

Apolo.5942:

Arken.3725:

Well let me explain my position and you can offer a rebuttal. We all know DPS Guardian hasn’t seen the light of day in top-tier play due to a multitude of factors. Lack of:

Reliable dmg
Mobility
Controlling conditions
Less than average sustain with said dps builds.

And now i’ll explain why the Bunker Guardian is going to see the way of the dinosaurs. The one and most important thing a Guardian brings to a fight is the ability to revive far better than any other class. Why not just bring a Cele that not only sustains better but is more mobile and actually applies offensive pressure?

Edit: but it just makes absolutely no sense. What thought-process was involved when making the Guardian? Here’s a melee-centric class that can’t run, can’t control and has low health.

Edit again: If the whole point was to make a class “stand its ground” in a VERY mobile game, then that’s just terrible class design.

Im telling you guardians are thives with no venom, lower damage, no stealth, no ranged weapon. But we do get an average 1 block every 10 seconds or so…. Thou this thread was more oriented to WVW which is where move speed actually matters.

I love class diversity but this just seems like terrible class design. Lets look at symbols as an example:

Outside of PvE, you will never be able to keep your target within this tiny circle for more than maybe a second. A build dedicated to symbols is a waste against any competent player.

Another Issue i’d like to bring up is down-state traits. Yes I understand everyone has those but I’m not a fan of speccing for when my teammates go down. I’d like to be able to keep them up as long as possible instead. Once again, it seems like a design flaw.

Apolo.5942:

Arken.3725:

Well let me explain my position and you can offer a rebuttal. We all know DPS Guardian hasn’t seen the light of day in top-tier play due to a multitude of factors. Lack of:

Reliable dmg
Mobility
Controlling conditions
Less than average sustain with said dps builds.

And now i’ll explain why the Bunker Guardian is going to see the way of the dinosaurs. The one and most important thing a Guardian brings to a fight is the ability to revive far better than any other class. Why not just bring a Cele that not only sustains better but is more mobile and actually applies offensive pressure?

Edit: but it just makes absolutely no sense. What thought-process was involved when making the Guardian? Here’s a melee-centric class that can’t run, can’t control and has low health.

Edit again: If the whole point was to make a class “stand its ground” in a VERY mobile game, then that’s just terrible class design.

Im telling you guardians are thives with no venom, lower damage, no stealth, no ranged weapon. But we do get an average 1 block every 10 seconds or so…. Thou this thread was more oriented to WVW which is where move speed actually matters.

The QQ in this thread is real. I can say the same to other classes that can’t sustain themselves, team cleanse and team stability. We’re still one of the faster reviving classes (disregarding instant revive sigil) in the game. Exactly what would you change, to whats already the most balanced class out there, and that wont turn us OP in our Zerk, Carrion, Bunk or Sustain Builds?

Saiyan.1704:

Apolo.5942:

Arken.3725:

Well let me explain my position and you can offer a rebuttal. We all know DPS Guardian hasn’t seen the light of day in top-tier play due to a multitude of factors. Lack of:

Reliable dmg
Mobility
Controlling conditions
Less than average sustain with said dps builds.

And now i’ll explain why the Bunker Guardian is going to see the way of the dinosaurs. The one and most important thing a Guardian brings to a fight is the ability to revive far better than any other class. Why not just bring a Cele that not only sustains better but is more mobile and actually applies offensive pressure?

Edit: but it just makes absolutely no sense. What thought-process was involved when making the Guardian? Here’s a melee-centric class that can’t run, can’t control and has low health.

Edit again: If the whole point was to make a class “stand its ground” in a VERY mobile game, then that’s just terrible class design.

Im telling you guardians are thives with no venom, lower damage, no stealth, no ranged weapon. But we do get an average 1 block every 10 seconds or so…. Thou this thread was more oriented to WVW which is where move speed actually matters.

The QQ in this thread is real. I can say the same to other classes that can’t sustain themselves, team cleanse and team stability. We’re still one of the faster reviving classes (disregarding instant revive sigil) in the game. Exactly what would you change, to whats already the most balanced class out there, and that wont turn us OP in our Zerk, Carrion, Bunk or Sustain Builds?

That right there helps solidify my point. And no, we’re not the fastest as much as more reliable. I don’t think any of us are QQing, especially when bringing forth some solid fact.

Let me try a different way … is there another issue people have with the class where a lack of runspeed is the symptom and not the illness? For me there is no argument; if the concept is team support, runspeed is not needed. So why does everyone want it?

I think the fundamental problem with the class is that supporting the team doesn’t have the same sort of direct feedback for player satisfaction like a class that instagibs someone or instaheals another player. It is pretty underwhelming to not know just how important supporting your team is; that measure isn’t as obvious to many players as killing someone. People think that their impact is more measureable with runspeed because they feel they can get in the fight more effectively with it. To some degree, they can, but it still doesn’t change that immeasurable ‘team support’ impact. Basically, people are re-inventing the class role because they don’t really get satisfaction and we know that runspeed can take this class part of the way through that transformation.

Forget the runspeed … it’s a dead-end solution for engaging. It won’t be supported because it’s not key to the class concept. If someone has a REALLY awesome argument for how the class concept is insufficient to compete, that’s exactly what is needed to influence change.

In terms of support that is very true. I’d slightly disagree that runespeed could be considered team support but that’s just me. We’re also talking about multiple specs, not just support. I’m going to go back to my original argument that while the Guardian can support very well, that’s all he/she can do which is fine. It’s balanced that way. However, you’re now introducing specs for certain classes that can sustain themselves better, provide similar support and still have dmg output. This is where i’m having an issue.

Obtena.7952:

Forget the runspeed … it’s a dead-end solution for engaging. It won’t be supported because it’s not key to the class concept. If someone has a REALLY awesome argument for how the class concept is insufficient to compete, that’s exactly what is needed to influence change.

So what is the class concept? Stand on a point till you die? IMHO that is a pretty stupid kitten concept to have.

I doubt very much that a 25% run speed trait/signet would help a lot but at least it would give you some options. It might even open up Med guardian as viable in the top meta. ATM it just can not rotate fast enough to be of use to top teams.

That’s my issue, standing on a point just to die and not even really hold your ground is a terrible game concept.

Arken.3725:

I’m going to go back to my original argument that while the Guardian can support very well, that’s all he/she can do which is fine. It’s balanced that way. However, you’re now introducing specs for certain classes that can sustain themselves better, provide similar support and still have dmg output. This is where i’m having an issue.

Are you also saying that thief, necro and ranger’s aren’t needed as well?

Obtena.7952:

Let me try a different way … is there another issue people have with the class where a lack of runspeed is the symptom and not the illness? For me there is no argument; if the concept is team support, runspeed is not needed. So why does everyone want it?

I think the fundamental problem with the class is that supporting the team doesn’t have the same sort of direct feedback for player satisfaction like a class that instagibs someone or instaheals another player. It is pretty underwhelming to not know just how important supporting your team is; that measure isn’t as obvious to many players as killing someone. People think that their impact is more measureable with runspeed because they feel they can get in the fight more effectively with it. To some degree, they can, but it still doesn’t change that immeasurable ‘team support’ impact. Basically, people are re-inventing the class role because they don’t really get satisfaction and we know that runspeed can take this class part of the way through that transformation.

Forget the runspeed … it’s a dead-end solution for engaging. It won’t be supported because it’s not key to the class concept. If someone has a REALLY awesome argument for how the class concept is insufficient to compete, that’s exactly what is needed to influence change.

Fight moves on, you cant catch up, you cant support.

Relentliss.2170:

Obtena.7952:

Forget the runspeed … it’s a dead-end solution for engaging. It won’t be supported because it’s not key to the class concept. If someone has a REALLY awesome argument for how the class concept is insufficient to compete, that’s exactly what is needed to influence change.

So what is the class concept? Stand on a point till you die? IMHO that is a pretty stupid kitten concept to have.

I doubt very much that a 25% run speed trait/signet would help a lot but at least it would give you some options. It might even open up Med guardian as viable in the top meta. ATM it just can not rotate fast enough to be of use to top teams.

Maybe but it seems to be part of the concept the devs are pushing on us. Like I said in my post … if the concept can be demonstrated to be flawed/deficient, we might have some worthwhile case to push for a new direction.

While being a trait or signet are just more options, they would no doubt be as or more compromising to a build as having the rune set. Personally, I think the runes are the best option.

Apolo.5942:

Fight moves on, you cant catch up, you cant support.

This really isn’t an issue because getting RS to avoid this is a build choice and every class has access to RS for whatever build they want to make. I’m pretty certain that’s why the runes exist; a few classes don’t have this in their toolset.

The real issue you have is why we can’t have RS as part of the Guardian toolset instead of runes. That’s been covered by the devs explanation of how the Guardian class concept works. I think it’s also part of the greater game approach; team co-operation is predominant so it’s not unreasonable to think that people organize to drop RS buffs for those that need it. In fact, this happens without organization. There are lots of angles that cover your concern without adding RS to the Guardian toolset directly.

Obtena.7952:

Apolo.5942:

Fight moves on, you cant catch up, you cant support.

This really isn’t an issue because getting RS to avoid this is a build choice and every class has access to RS for whatever build they want to make. I’m pretty certain that’s why the runes exist; a few classes don’t have this in their toolset.

The real issue you have is why we can’t have RS as part of the Guardian toolset instead of runes. That’s been covered by the devs explanation of how the Guardian class concept works. I think it’s also part of the greater game approach; team co-operation is predominant so it’s not unreasonable to think that people organize to drop RS buffs for those that need it. In fact, this happens without organization. There are lots of angles that cover your concern without adding RS to the Guardian toolset directly.

Right, its no longer the medi build or support build, it is now the have enough run speed to keep up build. Something necessary to make a build viable is not a choice.

That’s just sensationalism … A medi or support build is not critically dependent on the runes so to make that statement just indicates your being disingenuous and just want to argue or not understanding the significance of the toolset has on any build you make. I don’t think anything being said can address either of those options.

If you have a valid reason for getting runspeed in the Guardian toolset, then please state it. If it makes some sense, then there is value in a discussion.

Obtena.7952:

Let me try a different way … is there another issue people have with the class where a lack of runspeed is the symptom and not the illness? For me there is no argument; if the concept is team support, runspeed is not needed. So why does everyone want it?

And from your point of view, you’re right. There is no need for movement speed on a support guardian. Staff #3 does a well enough job at keeping a bare amount of swiftness up, and beyond that there’s a team around it that’s also giving off swiftness buffs. In that regard, guardian can still perform as well as if it were self-sufficient.

But that’s not the only role a guardian can play. Meditation guardians play a completely different way than a support guardian. Where sticking to your target to put melee pressure is crucial. You can’t just sit in the middle of a point spamming 1 on staff. Fundamentally they play completely different, and with that they have different needs.

You’ve completely focused on support guardian for the entirety of this discussion. I can understand that movement speed on a guardian would be a useless buff for a support guardian and a waste of resources in your point of view. But to play it off like it breaks our core concept is what is really disingenuous.

Revert the staff / symbol of swiftness change and there really won’t be a problem unless you are caught with it out. The current symbol mechanic forces one to stand in it for a few ticks to get full duration. Team moves as a whole, various members have different runes, Guardian must stop again, wait, and then play catchup.

Yes, this is a team game. Yes, you should probably move as one. However, there are times when you can’t move as one, or you need to hold something, or you have to go back and catch the slow Asura (remember, they have small legs compared to us Humans). But my point remains. The symbol of swiftness right now is silly and doesn’t help any.

The rest of it, well, it is what it is. Guardian is the only balanced class today in my opinion. The rest are broken, unbalanced, and honestly make no bloody sense. Why a cloth or leather wearing class has more longevity in any fight is beyond me and makes this game frustrating.

Crapgame.6519:

Revert the staff / symbol of swiftness change and there really won’t be a problem unless you are caught with it out. The current symbol mechanic forces one to stand in it for a few ticks to get full duration. Team moves as a whole, various members have different runes, Guardian must stop again, wait, and then play catchup.

Yes, this is a team game. Yes, you should probably move as one. However, there are times when you can’t move as one, or you need to hold something, or you have to go back and catch the slow Asura (remember, they have small legs compared to us Humans). But my point remains. The symbol of swiftness right now is silly and doesn’t help any.

The rest of it, well, it is what it is. Guardian is the only balanced class today in my opinion. The rest are broken, unbalanced, and honestly make no bloody sense. Why a cloth or leather wearing class has more longevity in any fight is beyond me and makes this game frustrating.

You do realize we are on par with the 3 squishiest classes on the game right?, the fact that you sacrifice everything to virtually become a stone, does not mean you are balanced or durable, you are durable if you can do something else beside that.

Saiyan.1704:

Arken.3725:

I’m going to go back to my original argument that while the Guardian can support very well, that’s all he/she can do which is fine. It’s balanced that way. However, you’re now introducing specs for certain classes that can sustain themselves better, provide similar support and still have dmg output. This is where i’m having an issue.

Are you also saying that thief, necro and ranger’s aren’t needed as well?

Not at all. All I’m stating is that outside of the bunker build, certain mechanics need to be introduced. Again, a primarily melee-centric class cannot be both slow and have zero ways to control your opponent, it’s just not sensible. And just to put it out there, Bunker Guardian is in no way the most durable profession, not even close. So the idea of you standing on a point while not even being the most durable makes little sense.

Shanks.2907:

But that’s not the only role a guardian can play. Meditation guardians play a completely different way than a support guardian. Where sticking to your target to put melee pressure is crucial. You can’t just sit in the middle of a point spamming 1 on staff. Fundamentally they play completely different, and with that they have different needs.

True, but team support is the role the class was designed to play and that’s why it’s such a focus of this discussion. You could decide to play another role but to claim the toolset is lacking because it’s necessary to fill that arbitrary role the class wasn’t designed for doesn’t make sense. That’s putting the cart in front of the horse.

Obtena.7952:

Shanks.2907:

But that’s not the only role a guardian can play. Meditation guardians play a completely different way than a support guardian. Where sticking to your target to put melee pressure is crucial. You can’t just sit in the middle of a point spamming 1 on staff. Fundamentally they play completely different, and with that they have different needs.

True, but team support is the role the class was designed to play and that’s why it’s such a focus of this discussion. You could decide to play another role but to claim the toolset is lacking because it’s necessary to fill that arbitrary role the class wasn’t designed for doesn’t make sense.

If that’s the case then why do we bother with different specs for this Guardian profession? If that is indeed how this profession was meant to be played, you might as well remove all of the damaging traits and replace them with support for more options.

I agree with that 100% … if the devs are so focused on giving us stuff to fill our role, why bother with alternate specs? This just comes full circle to what I’ve already said .. is there something lacking in the concept for the class? I think there is.

Now another question I have is can anyone here tell me where it says the Guardian is just a Support class? I can’t seem to find it and if that is factually how this class is meant to be, then i’m sorely disappointed.

Obtena.7952:

I agree with that 100% … if the devs are so focused on giving us stuff to fill our role, why bother with alternate specs? This just comes full circle to what I’ve already said .. is there something lacking in the concept for the class? I think there is.

Because the game was sold to trait the way you want to play. DPS, Support, or some combination between the two. Also because there is no formal or mandatory tank, dps, or heal meta.

Which I guess one could argue why have a support trait line then.