Guild Wars 2

Honestly… why? Everyone is complaining about things that don’t even exist, first of all those that complain about “AH” being the only good trait and everyone specs into it and even want it to be free like a 4th virtue… WTF???

Before starting let me say this, guardians lack in ranged options, but it IS compensated by the HUGE amount of leaping AND teleporting skills at our disposal, plus immobilization (I gotta say that guardians lack a LOT in movement buffs/passives though).

First of all… watch the other traits and skills you’ll discover new builds, I just can’t praise enough guardian’s consecration skills and wards, those skills are unbealivable, not only they allow a HUGE amount of control over a battlefield (which is extremely important, especially in pvp) but they reflect projectiles too! (not the wards)

How amazing is that? Being able to counter most builds by simply placing one single skill, and it supports allies too! A guardian alone can really change the flow of a battle, especially when breaking opponent’s team pace.

People complain about the low number of virtues but seriously…
Their passive effects are OK but when traited they grant so much I can’t even describe, condition removal, aegis, stability and a decent amount of retaliation all coupled with the renewal elite (which to most sounds useless, but actually… 3s invuln and recharges all those bonuses… who cares about the CD you’re not gonna use it often anyway)… is HUGE, not to mention the support to the team.

There’s a good amount of builds out there to be tried and I don’t even use the so praised AH, honestly the consecration skills are way better than some healing which I think is actually sub-par if you want to compare to an engineer with elixir gun and healing turret (which gives huge condition removal to the team and doesn’t really need to be traited more than 10 points).

Last but not least… WHY the kitten is everyone complaining about the Spirit Weapon FIX (yes it was a fix, and for people wondering “but it was 5 months it couldn’t be a bug”… have you EVER checked the engineer situation before this last patch? the nerfs were unbearable NOT due to the nerfs by themselves, but because of the serious lack of major FIXES!)

Jeez didn’t you EVER notice they were invulnerable? Even in pvp I couldn’t do any damage to those things? EVER noticed? No wonder they could tank mobs AND last the full duration… and for those that STILL complain… welcome to the club!

If you still didn’t get it… now guardians’ spirit weapons stand where every other profession’s summoned units are, because ALL of’em need a general change, simply put, you are on the same level as other professions, those professions that have been so since day1… Have you ever thought about how painful is mesmer’s clone/phantasm mechanic (which are bound to a single target, I mean once the target is dead they’ll disappear even thought you are still in combat) either engineer’s ducking turrets (of which the most important trait is still completely broken since day1 aka “deployable turrets”)?

For those that still want to contribute to the “summoned unit” scenario I suggest this topic:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Summoned-units-discussion/first#post1304965

Lol what. You’re complaining in your own thread. As far as viabile builds, AH and Monks Focus are the best hands down. Does that mean there isn’t others? No, they just aren’t as practical. You can’t counter someone elses build with just 1 button, don’t deceive people like that. Our virtues are on huge cool downs, it is ridiculous, you have no idea what you are talking about. Concentrations being better than AH? Maybe for team support, but again on huge cool downs which make you a walking squishy with no utilities up. Spirit weapons, who cares, they were never good. Guardians alone don’t change all too much on the battlefield.

Well you know.. on Guardian forums people complain about Warriors being a better class, on Warrior forums people complain about Guardians being a better class. And everyone else complaining about Warriors and Guardians being OP. Works as intended!

In all honesty: there are a number of ‘non-canonical’ builds that seem to work very well for the people who post videos on them. You just have to experiment and find your own way. The majority will always complain, this is the sad truth about MMORPGs. People simply have unreasonable expectations while lacking the understanding of the bigger picture. This game is still in beta, don’t forget it. They still do a better job balancing the classes than any other MMORPG I am aware of.

FYI, spirit weapons was intended to be invulnerable at first. It was part of the description when they were first introducing the Guardian, as one of its properties that distinguishes them from other pets. It was supposed to be carried over from GW1, where ritualist spirit weapons also were irremovable after they were successfully cast.

Not surprisingly, it was considered OP or un-fun to use / play against, just like GW1’s spirit weapons were. The change is very obvious and you would have seen it coming since first annoucement if you had kept up with the meta for a long time. That’s why I thought a total revamp (in the manner of hex->phantasm) is called for the spirit weapon mechanic. Though major changes of that sort will likely take a very long time (possibly in spans of years). So in the mean time, a small nerf to remove them from the competitive arena would be a patchwork fix.

I can see why there is some disappointment by people that play Guardians. I don’t feel it’s because they think the class is weak. MY personal feeling on what is wrong with Guardians:

1. Weak implementation of the concept. We have an idea of what the devs want for Guardians to be. Problem is that Guardian doesn’t PLAY that way.
2. Variation in builds. There seems one strong theme and then alot of variations on it. Sure, there are others you can play but it seems very forced to do so. It’s a general consensus that deep Zeal is pretty crap.
3. Balance to other professions. It’s inevitable that Guardian skills will be compared to other similar professions. Overall, the skills feel a step behind what our cousins have.

not for me … coz whenever i am in a party all i read is that why are you not dying… very happy with my guardian. …

It’s true, the variation of builds is pretty much dumbed down to two. I recently listed a myriad of reasons why the Guardian has been lacking ranging from no actual ranged weapon to access to stuns/cripples and terrible mobility.

I don’t think Guards are in too bad of a place right now, but I also don’t know that you have any idea what you’re talking about.

As far as the overall balance of the class, we have one trait line that is uber powerful for solo/roaming builds. By not traiting for AH or MF you sacrifice so much survivability that what little damage you can get from skipping them is almost not worth it. I personally stopped using both, but I have noticed that if I try to build for damage without things like Omnom Ghosts/Pies to compensate, I really don’t stand a chance in solo/roaming pvp.

In large group pvp AH is almost required for any damage focused build, otherwise you just don’t have the survivability.

Also, comparing spirit weapons to other class pets is really kinda stupid.
—-Mesmers have so many ways to summon illusions and on much, much shorter CDs.
—-Necro pets are weak because their AI is not very intelligent, not because they die too quick or don’t do enough damage.
—-Engineers turrets are weak just because they don’t do enough single target damage, have very little AoE, and are stationary.
I’ve never been a fan of spirit weapons, but only because I thought they were weak. The fact that they got nerfed just totally surprised me. Either Anet just had a huge lapse in judgement, or they have something planned that we are not yet aware of.

And wards……don’t even get me started on wards. They work perfectly fine unless:
—-Your target uses stability
—-Your target uses a blink or teleport
—-Your target uses a leap
—-Your target dodges through the ward
—-Your target just simply gets knocked out/passed the ward by the ward itself
—-You miss your target because you have to stand in one spot while casting the ward
—-You get interrupted while standing in one spot trying to cast the ward
—-You get killed while standing in one spot trying to cast the ward
And if by some miraculous miracle of the Ward gods you do happen to use your ward to it’s fullest potential you only have to wait for its long CD to end before you can test your luck again.

As far as the consecrations go, Wall of Reflection is beast, the rest are meh. The fire fields are good for stacking might, but really that’s about it, and Sanctuary is incredibly unreliable (see Wards above).

Our ranged options are absolutely terrible. Scepter is a joke (and not even a funny one) and Staff – though it is a beast support weapon – has mediocre range and almost no reliable damage.

TL;DR —- Guardians are more than fine if you don’t mind going with a cookie cutter AH/MF build or you are part of a good cooperative group that can compensate for your lack of survivability or your complete focus on survivability. We have so many abilities and traits that, if working as they should would be incredible, but at the moment are just too weak or broken, limiting the variety of viable builds.

Archer.1658:

Lol what. You’re complaining in your own thread. As far as viabile builds, AH and Monks Focus are the best hands down. Does that mean there isn’t others? No, they just aren’t as practical. You can’t counter someone elses build with just 1 button, don’t deceive people like that. Our virtues are on huge cool downs, it is ridiculous, you have no idea what you are talking about. Concentrations being better than AH? Maybe for team support, but again on huge cool downs which make you a walking squishy with no utilities up. Spirit weapons, who cares, they were never good. Guardians alone don’t change all too much on the battlefield.

While I don’t necessarily agree with every word the OP posted, I certainly disagree with anything else besides Altruistic Healing and Monk Focus as not being “practical”. I can run pretty “practical” builds with zero valor. It’s up to each player to decide what works and is practical for them-not an artificially created meta.

The issue I have Vitu is we have solid survivability through AH but elementalists and others do it better without sacrificing much. We require people, others do not.

Arken.3725:

We require people, others do not.

This one is so true.

It seems that watever build you go, theres always one weakness you cant get over unless you have some teammates around.

With the weakness varying according to the build of your choice.

Arken.3725:

The issue I have Vitu is we have solid survivability through AH but elementalists and others do it better without sacrificing much. We require people, others do not.

I would say Ele, Mesmer, and Thief in almost any small fight scenario are the only ones, maybe Warrior.

The rest do have to sacrifice a lot to achieve high survivability.

And I wouldn’t say AH requires others, but it does shine in groups

Right but you’re looking at half the selection. Thief stealth heals are insane while having the ultimate survivability. D/D eles are…well we all know. It’s true AH can do well by yourself but not to the extent other the other classes. I even looked over some of the healing skills and found the Guardians to be lack behind most other professions.

Arken.3725:

Right but you’re looking at half the selection. Thief stealth heals are insane while having the ultimate survivability. D/D eles are…well we all know. It’s true AH can do well by yourself but not to the extent other the other classes. I even looked over some of the healing skills and found the Guardians to be lack behind most other professions.

I just don’t know that I can agree to that 100%

I will agree Eles are an all around powerful class that really don’t have a weakness, other than just zerging them – and sometimes that doesnt even work.

Perma-stealth Thieves are really only a challenge if they are really skilled or if they decide they’re done fighting and just stealth away never to be seen again.

Most other classes I really didn’t struggle with solo with an AH build, and in groups AH provides so much survivability it’s insane.

I’ve actually stopped using AH though in WvW. I’m more of a glass cannon build and use Omnom Pies to compensate for my lack of survivability and that works very well, I’d even say a little better than AH. Without the Omnom Pies though I’d be screwed

Star Ace.5207:

Archer.1658:

Lol what. You’re complaining in your own thread. As far as viabile builds, AH and Monks Focus are the best hands down. Does that mean there isn’t others? No, they just aren’t as practical. You can’t counter someone elses build with just 1 button, don’t deceive people like that. Our virtues are on huge cool downs, it is ridiculous, you have no idea what you are talking about. Concentrations being better than AH? Maybe for team support, but again on huge cool downs which make you a walking squishy with no utilities up. Spirit weapons, who cares, they were never good. Guardians alone don’t change all too much on the battlefield.

While I don’t necessarily agree with every word the OP posted, I certainly disagree with anything else besides Altruistic Healing and Monk Focus as not being “practical”. I can run pretty “practical” builds with zero valor. It’s up to each player to decide what works and is practical for them-not an artificially created meta.

If you aren’t running the 30 into valor then you are pretty much fail unless you are playing team support with honor and virtues which is fine. I have yet to see a build that can dish or DPS + survive without 30 into valor.

Archer.1658:

If you aren’t running the 30 into valor then you are pretty much fail unless you are playing team support with honor and virtues which is fine. I have yet to see a build that can dish or DPS + survive without 30 into valor.

If you’re talking large zerg v zerg fights then yes I agree.

But you can run some solo/small group builds that don’t use the valor tree. Check out Amin’s thread as an example

Vitu.3580:

Arken.3725:

Right but you’re looking at half the selection. Thief stealth heals are insane while having the ultimate survivability. D/D eles are…well we all know. It’s true AH can do well by yourself but not to the extent other the other classes. I even looked over some of the healing skills and found the Guardians to be lack behind most other professions.

I just don’t know that I can agree to that 100%

I will agree Eles are an all around powerful class that really don’t have a weakness, other than just zerging them – and sometimes that doesnt even work.

Perma-stealth Thieves are really only a challenge if they are really skilled or if they decide they’re done fighting and just stealth away never to be seen again.

Most other classes I really didn’t struggle with solo with an AH build, and in groups AH provides so much survivability it’s insane.

I’ve actually stopped using AH though in WvW. I’m more of a glass cannon build and use Omnom Pies to compensate for my lack of survivability and that works very well, I’d even say a little better than AH. Without the Omnom Pies though I’d be screwed

I understand your argument but I believe the problem is mobility mixed in with survivability. Guardians are required to utilize symbols for much of their AH use. This in turn makes stationary to our disadvantage. I just don’t see this issue with other professions.

Arken.3725:

Vitu.3580:

Arken.3725:

Right but you’re looking at half the selection. Thief stealth heals are insane while having the ultimate survivability. D/D eles are…well we all know. It’s true AH can do well by yourself but not to the extent other the other classes. I even looked over some of the healing skills and found the Guardians to be lack behind most other professions.

I just don’t know that I can agree to that 100%

I will agree Eles are an all around powerful class that really don’t have a weakness, other than just zerging them – and sometimes that doesnt even work.

Perma-stealth Thieves are really only a challenge if they are really skilled or if they decide they’re done fighting and just stealth away never to be seen again.

Most other classes I really didn’t struggle with solo with an AH build, and in groups AH provides so much survivability it’s insane.

I’ve actually stopped using AH though in WvW. I’m more of a glass cannon build and use Omnom Pies to compensate for my lack of survivability and that works very well, I’d even say a little better than AH. Without the Omnom Pies though I’d be screwed

I understand your argument but I believe the problem is mobility mixed in with survivability. Guardians are required to utilize symbols for much of their AH use. This in turn makes stationary to our disadvantage. I just don’t see this issue with other professions.

I can’t argue that Guards don’t lack mobility. Easily the least mobile class in the game. But I also think we make up for that in heals/boons/heavy armor.

Actually I have to disagree a little bit there on the heals and boons a little and here’s why.

Guardians boon upkeep is very small, most of the time we can only have 1 type of boon for 5 seconds in a long cd. Again, I see others not having some of the same issues with upkeep. Heals goes hand-in-hand with the lack of mobility recently stated. Guardians either stay in symbols/immobile(empower) or they die. It really goes against the philosophy of the games combat mechanics.

You know why people are complaining? Mostly because that’s what people do, but also because there are problems.
Our ranged skills (or lack thereof) are a problem, because it’s not just about not being able to do damage to enemies, it’s about being forced into unpleasant situations (like massive AoE-fests, or right in front of a hard-hitting Champion). It’s high risk without a very high reward.
And there are other (viable) builds. I don’t use Altruistic Healing, because I disagree with the philosophy behind that trait, and I do pretty okay, both in sPvP as the little PvE content I do.

I really like this profession, but it’s not perfect and it’s not what it could be. I criticize because I love.

Ranged is definitely 1 of the more pressing matters that needs to be addressed. I just think the others that I’ve listed have significant merit as well.

Arken.3725:

Actually I have to disagree a little bit there on the heals and boons a little and here’s why.

Guardians boon upkeep is very small, most of the time we can only have 1 type of boon for 5 seconds in a long cd. Again, I see others not having some of the same issues with upkeep. Heals goes hand-in-hand with the lack of mobility recently stated. Guardians either stay in symbols/immobile(empower) or they die. It really goes against the philosophy of the games combat mechanics.

Just so we are straight, I’m going to start omitting Eles from my comparisons to Guards. We all know Eles can do just about everything and more, and I’m tired of saying, “except Ele” in all my posts.

With that said, no other class has access to number of boons guards have access to. Save Yourself gives you every single boon except aegis for at least 10 seconds. With the popular Healway build (which I consider the cookie cutter)you have access to:
—perma-retaliation.
—perma-vigor (more heals on dodge).
—access to might stacks on crits and blocks (usually perma 5+ stacks of might if not more).
—the various other sources of boons you can have from other utilities / abilities (protection, swiftness, some fury, regen, stability).
No other class has access to a reliable source of Aegis – Mesmer is the only other class with access to it, and for them its 100% luck based. EDIT – I think Engis too.

I would venture to say that a Healway specced guard can provide more boon support for himself and allies than just about every other class that is specced for support.

Those other classes focus on a small set of boons, and yes, they can probably keep those few boons they have access to up for longer than a guard can. But a Guard can continually pump out smaller duration boons and a wider variety of them.

Symbols and Empower are not the main source of healing for the cookie cutter pvp AH build. They get the majority of their heals from critting which provides Vigor and Might, and from the other sources of boons they have access to. Popping all 3 virtues at the same time easily gives 50% of your total health back, and using Renewed Focus makes it so you can do that again after 4 secs. Plus the various other heals they have access to (heals on dodge, etc.)

the only complaint i have about guardians are mobility but i love my guardian i have a blast. just sucks having to use a weapon and 2 utilitys and a trait to make it so you have almost 100% of the 33%run speed bonus

The Variety of boons is usually limited to protection, regeneration and retaliation. There isn’t much of a variety here to be clear. Permanent vigor just goes hand-in-hand with any hit crit build so the healway guardian isn’t really necessary for that. I’m not doubting the ability to keep some might stacks up, if specced right I can see 5 stacks continuously up being possible. I’m mostly speaking from a pvp standpoint since that’s what I do on a more consistant basis.

Save Yourselves got hit pretty hard making it tough to choose over other utilities at this moment. Gaining vigor no longer provides a viable heal to the guardian anymore since the recent nerf(buff to some). EM I can see being a good source just the 1 second cooldown turns me off to it. The most reliable source for healing to me(in pve) is the hammer hands down.

Even if we take out the elementalist, you have shout-heal warriors that provide more healing to the group, rangers with Troll Unugent that rivals if not exceeds AH without any risk on top of spirits.

I have a Thief and Guardian and they’re two very unique and specialized classes.

I’ve leveled a Warrior to 20 and DPS wise with Greatsword they aren’t as fun as Guardian’s to level.

Who is complaining about Guardians? I’ve given up on all other professions for running harder dungeons and Fractals 20+, I only use my Guardian there. I also run my Guardian in WvW with lots of control abilities (immobilize and line of warding) and of course my Guardian fairs well both as Bunker and even dps spec in sPVP. If anything I have no major complains about this profession, if anyone has real complains on Guardians they must have never played any other Profession before…

maddoctor.2738:

… if anyone has real complains on Guardians they must have never played any other Profession before…

What would make you say that? I would be more inclined to say that anyone completely satisfied with the profession haven’t played it enough. Maybe you assume everyone that complains is a complete noob but that wouldn’t be a very good assumption. In fact, the BEST criticism and complaining are going to come from the people with the very deep understanding and experience with a profession in the game.

when mesmers, thieves, warriors, eles cant kill guardian in first 5 sec they yell HE’S OP HE’S OP NERF NERF NERF!!!

guardian in good hands can be tough to beat. but with only 2 builds AH,Monk.

My biggest issue is the lack of mobility/snares which are needed for any offensive build that doesn’t rely on AH/EM (which just means you’ll die slowly while you chase enemies). 3 gap closers in the entire profession is not adequate. Having 1 reliable form of cripple/chill is not adequate. Having no passive movement speed increases and barely any forms of swiftness is not adequate.

I’ve resigned the fact that ArenaNet either doesn’t see this as a problem or doesn’t have it as a priority that will be addressed anytime soon.

There’s no “two builds”, and there are also many possible builds for those who do use those traits. Guardians in good hands will be tough to beat in any guise that suits the player, not only two.

Star Ace.5207:

There’s no “two builds”, and there are also many possible builds for those who do use those traits. Guardians in good hands will be tough to beat in any guise that suits the player, not only two.

There are a few builds which are clearly superior because they add so much effectiveness and have low opportunity cost. For example, 30 Valor with Monk’s Focus is far superior to other offensive builds because it:

1.) Gives +30% critical damage
2.) Gives +300 Toughness (the main stat that every Guardian needs)
3.) Massive self healing.
4.) Great condition removal (SC, CoP, Purity)
5.) Cooldown reduction on an almost required utility skill for offensive Guardians (JI)
6.) Potentially +4-6% critical chance

In not going 30 Valor, you gain almost no damage even if you go 30 Radiance/Zeal (because of the 30% critical damage), and you lose a massive amount of survival.

Your first sentence claims “there are also many possible builds for those who do use those traits”. Obviously. When people say there are “two builds” they’re saying there are two exceptional build templates with X% of it predetermined and the rest being optional effectiveness in one area at the cost of effectiveness in another. The base X% of the build adding such a substantial amount of effectiveness for low opportunity cost relative to other possible options. I explained this above.

Your second sentence has nothing to back it up except the fact that you’re saying it. Not trying to be mean, but I’m being honest in the hope that you’ll elaborate or concede that point.

Alarox is correct, 30 into valor provides quite a bit when compared to the rest. This is especially true when stacked against Zeal, Radiance and even Virtues. I’d put Valor on top, Honor close behind with Zeal all the way at the bottom.

One thing i’d disagree to is I believe AH to be slightly more effective than MF even when soloing.

Arken.3725:

One thing i’d disagree to is I believe AH to be slightly more effective than MF even when soloing.

I think that’ll depend on the rest of the build quite a bit. For example, going 10/30/30/0/0 with a Sword/Scepter would benefit far more from MF while something like 0/15/30/20/5 with a Hammer/GS would benefit far more from AH.

Right, it really is dependent on your build. I also think MF needs a boost in healing capability. Warriors shout heals for about 2.4 for the whole part on similar cool down.

Currently running perma retaliation build with Tank and DPS. I’ loving it.

I have no complaints.

The only people I see complaining about guardians, are the people saying “why are people complaining about guardians”

These troll threads are getting absurd.

I find retaliation a lazy mans boon; it think it needs to be removed.

Alarox.4590:

Star Ace.5207:

There’s no “two builds”, and there are also many possible builds for those who do use those traits. Guardians in good hands will be tough to beat in any guise that suits the player, not only two.

There are a few builds which are clearly superior because they add so much effectiveness and have low opportunity cost. For example, 30 Valor with Monk’s Focus is far superior to other offensive builds because it:

1.) Gives +30% critical damage
2.) Gives +300 Toughness (the main stat that every Guardian needs)
3.) Massive self healing.
4.) Great condition removal (SC, CoP, Purity)
5.) Cooldown reduction on an almost required utility skill for offensive Guardians (JI)
6.) Potentially +4-6% critical chance

In not going 30 Valor, you gain almost no damage even if you go 30 Radiance/Zeal (because of the 30% critical damage), and you lose a massive amount of survival.

---

Your first sentence claims “there are also many possible builds for those who do use those traits”. Obviously. When people say there are “two builds” they’re saying there are two exceptional build templates with X% of it predetermined and the rest being optional effectiveness in one area at the cost of effectiveness in another. The base X% of the build adding such a substantial amount of effectiveness for low opportunity cost relative to other possible options. I explained this above.

Your second sentence has nothing to back it up except the fact that you’re saying it. Not trying to be mean, but I’m being honest in the hope that you’ll elaborate or concede that point.

I don’t take offense, because I don’t care for min/maxing, and I know what has worked for me. I believe in “whatever works for you” rather than whatever math proves-therefore, I didn’t want to debate something that boils down to personal preference, as it should. When we let “math” win, we tend to disapprove of those who wouldn’t use the “mathematically proven”, or “effective” builds, which tends to go in the way of elitism.

There aren’t two builds period. I say so because people tend to exaggerate: “Guardians have only 2 builds”. It’s not true, even for those who use those traits, and you admitted as much-it’s just people being negative about things (AH with Sword =/= AH with Hammer =/= AH with Greatsword; just one example.)

Since I am currently using 30/0/0!!!/30/10 and I survive, heal myself, do good damage, and plain just do fine, your proven “effective” builds do nothing for me (I have used AH, and know it’s a good trait, BTW). See, it’s about personal playstyle, not about what’s supposed to be more effective-I laugh at math in any case (no offense, dear Sir; math has its uses but I don’t depend on it.) I wouldn’t be able to prove to you anything in the forum; you would have to play with me, as I don’t like making videos, nor believe making videos necessarily help prove anything in any case, because I am myself, and you are yourself-what I do may be totally different than what you do as a Guardian.

Arken.3725:

I find retaliation a lazy mans boon; it think it needs to be removed.

It’s fine; kind of a Guardian trademark at this point. Removing it would be worse, and I doubt too many will be happy about it (and it’s also not an “insta-win” or uncounterable boon.)

I do play with or without it. My current builds benefits from it, but another has almost zero retaliation, and both do well. It’s no big deal for me.

They’ve already dumbed it down quite a bit as it is. Retaliation is lazy, the player using it is utilizing no skill at all. I just say replace it with something else, maybe swiftness? We already lack a tremendous amount of mobility as it is.

I agree with Arken here. Retaliation is a lazy boon that takes even less skill to use than Protection. I think it was badly designed to begin with. I’d rather see it have a shorter duration and reflect more damage (preferably actually returning incoming damage), so it’s something you keep for big incoming attacks you can’t dodge or block. This makes it a lot more skill-based.

As for the builds: Yes, there are other options. I personally really like 30 points in Honor for Voice of the Pure or Radiance, for crit-based builds, but the fact remains that using anything other than 30 Valor lowers your survivability noticeably. It is the superior option, even if other things kinda work.

My mesmer buddie complains about aegis blocking his berserker which wont allow him to 2-3 shot guardians. I have a complaint about guardian, how do you beat a good confusion shatter memser 1v1 on open field? I have yet to see it happen.

JaNordy.6149:

My mesmer buddie complains about aegis blocking his berserker which wont allow him to 2-3 shot guardians. I have a complaint about guardian, how do you beat a good confusion shatter memser 1v1 on open field? I have yet to see it happen.

You can’t really. Confusion is very overpowered in WvW because it doesn’t suffer from the 50% damage reduction that they added to sPvP. It should really get the same treatment because 2k damage on skill use is stupid.

I have tons of fun with my guardian. WvW, PvE and SPvP. Yes they lack some range but for WvW I don’t think scepter/torch is a bad combo at all. I generally run a shout build and just buff my team up while doing some dmg when needed.

Just adding my 2 cents. Builds, skills, traits, gear aside having 4 level 80 characters my biggest issue with Guardians is the huge disperity in damage output compared to other classes. Basically, I don’t feel that the surviveability we bring is enough to offset the minimalistic amount of damage we dish.

I would venture to say for example the damage a guardian does is currently about 1/5 of that of a warrior but we only have say, 50% more surviveability. I’m not saying the damage should be on par or comperable to warriors by any means, but there should feinately not be as much disperiry as currently exists.

For me, for Guardians to be on par with other class I would say roughly a 10-15% increase in damage output would be required, or, about a 4k in crease in base HPs.

Also, while enjoy the versatility and vaariety in build options for Guardian there are too many skills that are worthless in WvW, symbols, spirit weapons for example.

Ynna.8769:

I agree with Arken here. Retaliation is a lazy boon that takes even less skill to use than Protection. I think it was badly designed to begin with. I’d rather see it have a shorter duration and reflect more damage (preferably actually returning incoming damage), so it’s something you keep for big incoming attacks you can’t dodge or block. This makes it a lot more skill-based.

As for the builds: Yes, there are other options. I personally really like 30 points in Honor for Voice of the Pure or Radiance, for crit-based builds, but the fact remains that using anything other than 30 Valor lowers your survivability noticeably. It is the superior option, even if other things kinda work.

It is not really “the superior option”; all I have noticed is that if your gear is lacking in healing power, AH might be a good option for survivability. Since in all probability most people ignore healing power on their armor and/or accessories, I am not surprised that they find AH so attractive. It is also the reason I see it as optional, because I do have decent to good Healing Power most of the time. Using Magic Find gear (horrible to zero Healing Power, depending on build), all of the sudden most great builds that are non-AH are less good-however, with decent Healing Power, many of my non-AH builds do surpass AH builds by a substantial amount (for this player’s playstyle, and “math” notwithstanding.)

guardian really need fix many of his skill and weapon skills (1h sword/staff/hammer/scepter)
its bad when shout warrior heal more that guardian when warrior cd on shouts is small vs guardian.
if arenanet want guardian with low hp that other class they must buff his scale from healing power.

But we never see this change to guardian GM will only nerfing him in every big update ( i think march update will bring more nerf)

Hamish.1384:

Just adding my 2 cents. Builds, skills, traits, gear aside having 4 level 80 characters my biggest issue with Guardians is the huge disperity in damage output compared to other classes. Basically, I don’t feel that the surviveability we bring is enough to offset the minimalistic amount of damage we dish.

are you serious?
being able to provide your party with aegis, numerous projectile-blocks, lines that foes cant pass and party-wide stability/every-single-boon-in-the-game is a really great advantage.
the difference between having a guardian in your group (dungeons/fractals) and not having one is huge. too huge, imo.
in a game with 8 classes and parties of 5, no class should be as important as the guardian currently is.

and i really dont see how a warrior can ever have more survivability than a guardian…

Also, while enjoy the versatility and vaariety in build options for Guardian there are too many skills that are worthless in WvW, symbols, spirit weapons for example.

Every class has quite a lot of skills/traits that are useless. compared to others, guardians have many very good skills and many of the best utility-skills.

@retaliation/protection-discussion:
i think retaliation is in a fine place right now. most traits and skills that give retaliation have an adequately short duration (3-5 secs.). there are only a couple of exceptions, that need some tweaking like unholy feast (which can provide permanent retaliation without any traits needed) or"save yourselves!" (not sure about symbol of wrath. 5secs. of retaliation every 16 secs. sounds pretty lame too).

the same goes for protection: in my opinion, most durations are short enough, but being able to give protection with your auto-attack(symbol of protection) is just wrong and lazy.

RashanDale.3609:

the difference between having a guardian in your group (dungeons/fractals) and not having one is huge. too huge, imo.
in a game with 8 classes and parties of 5, no class should be as important as the guardian currently is.

You should note that the reason why guardian is indispensable in high lvl PvE is not because they have a superior tool set. It’s because they’re the only people to actually invest in support skills. Most other professions can perform the same support functions just as well if not better. But instead of utilizing those abilities, they expect guardians to carry them through the encounters.

This is a problem with the people’s mind set, and has nothing to do with class balance.

RashanDale.3609:

the difference between having a guardian in your group (dungeons/fractals) and not having one is huge. too huge, imo.
in a game with 8 classes and parties of 5, no class should be as important as the guardian currently is.

The reason people want Guardians in high level Fractals is because of Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger…