Guild Wars 2

Looking for a clear explanation why the Wrathful Spirit trait (Honor I) was nerfed.

Old: Gives 10sec retaliation when aegis is broken
New: Gives 3sec

I’m working up to my equipment but i’m basically running a retaliation build (albeit i didn’t finish my toughness set in time and my PVE MF set isn’t so good with retaliation).

So… why is this deserved? Its not like we can be dedicated tanks nor does it reduce received damage.

> sad_guardian.jpg

It’s one heck of a drop, i’ll give anet that.

Maybe 10 seconds was to long, but from 10 to 3 is just crazy.

I’d maybe understand making it 5 and a half (like most ret skills), but a drop of 7 seconds is way overboard.

It does seem a pointless change. What’s the point of being a guardian if they nerf the guardians defences. I may as well become a warrior.

Rich.9503:

It does seem a pointless change. What’s the point of being a guardian if they nerf the guardians defences. I may as well become a warrior.

That’s exactly the thing… it doesn’t even help with our defenses nor does it scale with being a turtle (as it scales with power instead of received damage).

This is annoying, I might have to rethink my 25/25/0/20/0 build now.

As a support Guardian, this was a big part of my damage in both PvE and WvW. This change is idiotic. We are supposed to be defensively offensive, as in make people not want to attack us cause it causes them harm but force them to because otherwise we heal and buff our allies. Now with the line of warding nerf and the fact that people can just ignore that and the ring of warding, I soon don’t see the point in not playing a support warrior with shouts. They REALLY want us to use a greatsword it seems, since that has retaliation and damage en masse.

Just by picking up “Stand Your Ground!” which is a staple for stun breaking and stability and investing 15 pts in Virtues, you have four sources in which to gain retaliation from and relative easy to fit into a lot of builds.

You make it sound like Guardians must always reek of retaliation no matter which build they run. Every class in this game must give trade offs in order to gain something. A warrior is a CC machine if he picks up Hammer and Dual Maces, but he loses out on lol 100bs. He also is seriously vulnerable to conditions unless he runs Shouts + Rune of the Soldier compared to LOL FRENZY BULLS CHARGE!

What’s wrong with Guardians needing to pick up a few things to gain retaliation. In fact, Wrathful Spirit wasn’t even the strongest source of Retaliation in the first place. Courage is on the highest CD out of all your virtues and it triggers once every 40s. Unless you also picked up Retreat, the trait was mediocore at best.

If you want to be a Greatsword Hero on Guardian, symbol of wrath gives you retaliation. If you want to be more control oriented and defensive, you can self combo AoE retaliation with the hammer. Look at your arsenal then take a look around, even with this one tiny nerf to a largely underwhelming trait, Guardians have a crapload of retaliation relative to all the other classes and still have a huge uptime on it.

You know it deep down that Guardians have too much of it already, this shouldn’t be a boon where it’s up 100% cause that just means the only counter for it is boon removal. If Guardian’s retaliation centralizes tactics that much, it’s a tad OP don’t you think.

whether it is deserved or not i dont know, i havent used the trait. But what I am annoyed about is how extreme the nerf is.

From 10 seconds to 3?
If they thought it was OP, drop it to 6 or maybe 5 seconds. If its still Op, knock another second off. Theres no reason to make drastic measures like this unless theres an exploit involving this trait i didnt know about

It was a bug, it sometimes gave even more than 10 seconds. It’s hard to proof because there was never a clear tooltip, but compared to traits such kittentered Aegis, which does like 3 seconds of Burning, 10 seconds of Retaliation seems a little extreme doesn’t it?

Besides, if you want Retaliation, with a Greatsword with Reduced cooldowns and increased symbol duration you can already have permanent retaliation. And if you need to move out of your Symbol, you still have Save Yourselfs, Stand your Ground, or Signet of Judgement giving you more than enough Retaliation.

Whoa, you actually moved the comment here…

You know it deep down that Guardians have too much of it already, this shouldn’t be a boon where it’s up 100% cause that just means the only counter for it is boon removal. If Guardian’s retaliation centralizes tactics that much, it’s a tad OP don’t you think.

True that 10 sec for practically is indeed “abusable” to the extent of permanently up… BUT we are talking about a skill of both minimal utility and contradicting support. To elaborate:

Damage returned is fixed per level and scales with power, increasing damage by 1 for every 13.4 power. At level 80, base damage is 267.

1. Minimal Utility
What does it do? it deals a “fixed” amount of damage that slightly scales with power. That’s about 300 per tick, 400 if you fully speced in Power. Unreliable damage output (since you have to be hit) and debuff-able. In builds that include retaliation, it usually plays second chair to a more reliable damage source, ie. your own. To have more than one utility skill devoted to something so unreliable is going to cost you stuff like a teleport, an aoe buff, damage, CC, etc. It is by no means a reliable means to deal damage and it doesn’t even protect the user from any damage.

If it did what its supposed to do and reflect a portion of damage received (maybe 20% + 1% every 100 Power) then by all means 1-3sec is appropriate since timing that hundred blade into eviscerate would be so clutch.

2. Contradicting Support
It is an ability that scales on disconnected stats. Think toughness and healing power {insert lengthy analysis here} which supports eachother in effectiveness. Then think Vitality and healing power, they are off-sync since the more you pump one, the less effective the other becomes because {insert lengthy analysis here}. Now go to offense and defense, its the two most opposing elements of all (skipping the “a good X is the best Y” argument), offense is better maximized by crits or conditions while defense is maximized by boon duration and regens. It is, by its nature, self terminating.

If anything, id’s say its the most balanced effect since you’d need to balance offense and defense while not getting a good edge in either direction.

From what I understand, Guardians were doing quite some “passive” damage with Retaliation in PvP. And this was probably the most “passive” source of Retaliation.
That being said, it does seem to be a big jump. If this was beta, I’d say they did so they can bring it up a bit later, but on live servers, I’m not so sure about that.

Ynna.8769:

From what I understand, Guardians were doing quite some “passive” damage with Retaliation in PvP.

Heard of that too, but only for condition damage ticks that are unavoidable since it attaches to many skills while dealing minuscule damage if no specceed in condition damage and larger damage returns in the form of retaliation.

I always thought this was unintended and will be fixed later. Either way, doing passive damage still means you’re taking damage yourself and it evens out down the line as you get pummeled for taking on that damage. The self-terminating nature works even in PvP.

To me these patch notes conveys a bad message: “we dont care about your problems or lack of ranged option. oh you managed to get a useful ranged skill on staff? let’s nerf it.”

I think the change makes it more in line with other retaliation traits that we have.

The problem is that Retaliation is what we get as Guardians.

For all the traits and different options when we do something or have something done to us, it’s always Retaliation.

People whine about it, so it gets nerfed so much that all the traits become useless.

3 seconds is so pathetic, how many skills are really going to hit you within that time, wait another 40s for it to be up again.

I wish we could get some different options like others have, like Protection when being CCd.

I never used this skill because I didn’t know it lasted 10 seconds in the first place. This is a problem with tooltips. In game it reads “Wrathful Spirit – Aegis gives retaliation when it ends.”

Not very descriptive at all. This is a problem with alot of the skills in this game.

Anyway, I still won’t be using it after this nerf. There are more useful traits for this slot.

Alumisoul.9072:

I never used this skill because I didn’t know it lasted 10 seconds in the first place. This is a problem with tooltips. In game it reads “Wrathful Spirit – Aegis gives retaliation when it ends.”

Not very descriptive at all. This is a problem with alot of the skills in this game.

Anyway, I still won’t be using it after this nerf. There are more useful traits for this slot.

Same. I thought it was a weak trait before but didn’t realise it lasted so long.

Now it is a completely useless trait in one of the better trait lines. Can’t imagine it being used at all.

From what I understand, Guardians were doing quite some “passive” damage with Retaliation in PvP. And this was probably the most “passive” source of Retaliation.
That being said, it does seem to be a big jump. If this was beta, I’d say they did so they can bring it up a bit later, but on live servers, I’m not so sure about that.

If you want to its pretty easy to keep retaliation up all the time with greatsword combo, signet and stand you ground(all of which are also aoe, unlike the trait). The change to this trait won’t change much.

Just met a Spirit Ranger in a tournament that was unkillable running in circles while the spirits were up.

Permanent regeneration and protection.

This of course is ok, but us having an amount of Retaliation on a trait that might actually intercept a skill? No, proposterous.

@Ezrael, I think the problem was that very defensive Guardians were doing enough damage through Retaliation to warrant this change. It’s a weird place to nerf it, and I don’t think this change will actually change the way Guardians play in sPvP a lot.

it’s sad, the skill already ruined the flow of combat because of forced stationary cast time. If it could be cast on the move then maybe, it would be a justfied nerf.

But we needed those 3 seconds just to get back to running!

So, in the sPvP forum there’s a stickied thread all about the thief.

But, you know, let’s ignore that and nerf Guardian retaliation.

Don’t want to give away too much because last time i talked about WS trait and how to keep it up 24/7 with nothing invested into it, it got nerfed….

so all ill say is the new way to keep it up 24/7 is almost just as investment free and just as good. the spec line allowed is also a little more narrow but wide enough for a fair amount of types of build to use it in this fashion!

i ran 2 builds last night with my group using this new build, and in my Bunker spec in 5’s i took out 2 100B’s warriors solo, on the 3rd match in 5’s and of course players in match 3 are better ( on average) than players in match 1 and 2 =p

Why nerf this? It was one of my favorite traits.

I believe they want retaliation and confusion to work as “reactive” boon/condtion, as opposed to a boon/condition you try to keep on 100% of the time. Therefore, by reducing the duration, you actually have to time when these boons happen. However, for something like this trait where we have no control over when this boon appears, it makes me believe that this trait is just poorly built, since it conflicts with what Anet is trying to accomplish.

Right but the use of confusion is much more effective since it stacks with intensity and hurts a lot more, leaving you useless for the time being(which can last a while).

Is no coincidence it was nerfed to 3 secs. someone in Anet has some serious OCD. because they only lowered it to 3 secs to match retaliatory subconscious.(3 sec ret when stunned, dazed etc), Healer’s ret (3sec Ret after a heal) and indomitable courage(3 secs with virtue of courage). and I dont see Anet changing it to 5secs. if anything we should just accepted b4 they give it at 30 sec cd same as RS and look the other way.

3s of retaliation every 40s is hilariously bad for a trait.

So as it stands, recapping everything…

Why it was nerfed:
- Passive source of damage that doesn’t agree with the action-MMO theme
- People QQ about it being up 100%
- It “supposedly” works great for tanky build (which i was aiming for actually, but never made it, only at 4/6 of my knight’s draconic armor )

Why it was nerfed too much:
- It doesn’t give all that much benefit and supporting it is hard enough (my own argument)
- 3s is not enough for a sustained existence as a boon that we cannot control from the trait (in the event that we just want it from the trait)
- It became 3s just because of an OCD employee (thanks Valdamus for making this point) since the 70% reduced duration is a big red flag on nerfing… i mean just listen to it “hey guys, we’re reducing your benefit by 70%!”.

I think QQers aside, we have enough reason to put this up in the suggestion thread.

Comments?

The 7 second nerf is indeed painful to swallow, but after some pvp games I didn’t really notice a difference in the outcome of the fights. You can still get around 80% retaliation uptime even as a bunker guardian by making use of your virtues and shouts. So in the end, 1vs1 fights last a little bit longer so you got to wonder how powerful bunker guardians were before the nerf.

Retaliation needs to stack in intensity, it’s a horrible mechanic as a tiny amount of damage people try to keep on continuous duration.

Duration Retaliation promotes the unkillable bunker build that does 50% of their damage through Retaliation over a long fight that benefits the defensive build.

Intensity Retaliation would promote many other different options for doing damage and for spike possibilities either offensively or defensively.

If Retaliation stacked in intensity it would allow people a counter against front loaded burst specs that try to kill a player outright in the opening attack, however if they bluff you and fake out of your initial Retaliation stack then it’s useless (which is good). Right now the mechanic allows you to stack a long duration Retaliation to damage the initial burst and the rest of the fight (which is bad gameplay).

For everyone who is upset
Read Fire Shield, Ele Focus Fire #5.

Not like Guardians didnt see nerfs coming.

Deserved nerf? Definitely. 10 seconds was way to excessive, considering aegis can be obtained once every 40 seconds by doing nothing and more often if you trait accordingly. It’s clearly not a boon that’s meant to be up so frequently.

In general, retaliation doesn’t work properly. It should mitigate bursts, not act like a passive unmitigated damage buff. Of course, this change doesn’t fix that either, but it’s a move in the right direction.

holy crap was it really 1o sec? yeah thats a bit TOO long. i never knew it was that long, thats insane. but then again aegis only comes p once per battle.
3 is too short.

Ezrael.6859:

Retaliation needs to stack in intensity, it’s a horrible mechanic as a tiny amount of damage people try to keep on continuous duration.

Duration Retaliation promotes the unkillable bunker build that does 50% of their damage through Retaliation over a long fight that benefits the defensive build.

Intensity Retaliation would promote many other different options for doing damage and for spike possibilities either offensively or defensively.

If Retaliation stacked in intensity it would allow people a counter against front loaded burst specs that try to kill a player outright in the opening attack, however if they bluff you and fake out of your initial Retaliation stack then it’s useless (which is good). Right now the mechanic allows you to stack a long duration Retaliation to damage the initial burst and the rest of the fight (which is bad gameplay).

whoaaa.. no
I recently started using 2handed sword to give out aoe retalliation. its quite powerful in its aoe form. if anything needs a nerf its 2handed sword. Im currently making a video of clips where i kill thieves and other aoe spamming classes almost instantly with aoe retaliation and a the damage from my attack.
if you gave me the ability to sit in a pile and keep stacking retal on one person that would be ok, but when I can do it aoe to everyone in range then your just making a skill plain op and not balanced

Looks like i don’t have a case.

I’m admitting defeat and saying the wrathful spirit nerf is deserved.

sigh… i’m not mad, i’m sad.

gabo.6721:

So… why is this deserved?

PvP. It was just too good of a apssive no-skill dmg. With a lot of power Retal could hit for 400. You can still keep up very long aoe retal right now so barely a nerf overall.

Flamethrower engie would still massacre himself on such a guardian xD

BishopX.6453:

Ezrael.6859:

Retaliation needs to stack in intensity, it’s a horrible mechanic as a tiny amount of damage people try to keep on continuous duration.

Duration Retaliation promotes the unkillable bunker build that does 50% of their damage through Retaliation over a long fight that benefits the defensive build.

Intensity Retaliation would promote many other different options for doing damage and for spike possibilities either offensively or defensively.

If Retaliation stacked in intensity it would allow people a counter against front loaded burst specs that try to kill a player outright in the opening attack, however if they bluff you and fake out of your initial Retaliation stack then it’s useless (which is good). Right now the mechanic allows you to stack a long duration Retaliation to damage the initial burst and the rest of the fight (which is bad gameplay).

whoaaa.. no
I recently started using 2handed sword to give out aoe retalliation. its quite powerful in its aoe form. if anything needs a nerf its 2handed sword. Im currently making a video of clips where i kill thieves and other aoe spamming classes almost instantly with aoe retaliation and a the damage from my attack.
if you gave me the ability to sit in a pile and keep stacking retal on one person that would be ok, but when I can do it aoe to everyone in range then your just making a skill plain op and not balanced

Who knows, maybe people will start using shout builds more. The one that gives AoE retal and AoE weakness might be useful now.

I for one siometimes hurt from retal. If i drop burn bomb in 5 people and guardian gives retal it’s basically 4×5x# where # is number of dmg done to me in total 4 because initial explosion and 3 sec persist with dmg per sec, 5 because of 5 people hit/

BishopX.6453:

holy crap was it really 1o sec? yeah thats a bit TOO long. i never knew it was that long, thats insane. but then again aegis only comes p once per battle.
3 is too short.

it’s not seeing what it does. You have other sources for retal if you want. Not like this is the only one.

2H sword symbol, Combo Fields (thatsymbol + blast), Shout and so on. You pick +25% retal trait if you want and can always have longer buffs from runes (30%) and trait line (30%) for a total of 85% increase.