Guild Wars 2

Etterwyn.5263:

bearshaman.3421:

Ghotistyx.6942:

Sure, but what I had initially quoted was in regards to Dragonhunter. That’s not going to be changed at this point. Longbow and traps aren’t up for consideration.

Instead, we should be making suggestions for the future, as is the intention of the thread.

Agreed. The OP shouldn’t have used the word “replace” in the title and the initial post. Kinda sidetracked the conversation from what was intended (assuming that was what was intended).

Well it does replace it in a sense because only one elite spec will be equipped at a time. My initial thoughts were which weapon could fill the Guardian’s weak points enough to be favorable over the longbow? Basically if the new elite (weapons, skills, and traits) isn’t at least on par, it won’t get used much or at all.

Anyway it has been a good discussion to read.

Well that assumes guardian has a weak point. But that’s a complete different conversation.

I see elite specs as not trying to fix base class issues (which is a position I don’t get at all), but more taking some small aspect of the class, and expanding on it. I won’t use DH as an example because it doesn’t do that at all, but druid for example expands on the idea of nature magic and healing in the ranger. Berserker takes the adrenaline mechanic and takes it even further. Reaper builds on the chill and vulnerability conditions that were already prevalent in necro heavily. You get the idea.

Elite specs also bring in new ideas for how a class will act. This was expressly talked about during the Profession CDI that happened so long ago, far before Elite Specs, or even HoT was revealed.

For example, Reaper was inspired by Horror movie villians. They’re often slow, but powerful and menacing to instill dread. Reaper reflects that in their slow activating, but very dangerous melee abilities. Berserker was inspired by various fighting games (Smash Brawler’s trait icon is almost identical to Ridely, a trophy featured in Super Smash Brothers: Brawl, other aspects are inspired by other fighting games). Rangers were never known for their ally healing, though they had fantastic personal sustain if built for it. Druid used both GW1 lore and traditional healing concepts to expand on Ranger’s ability to heal allies, pushing them in a new direction (Celestial Avatar form correlates well to Necro’s Death Shroud mechanically, if anyone likes to make inter-professional comparisons. More on that later).

For Guardian, thematically Dragon Hunter expands on the sense of Justice espoused by base Guardian. Sometimes you defend the weak from oppression, but other times you might go out and smite the oppression before it has a chance to oppress. It very much speaks to the Cleave and Smite aspect of “holy warriors”. In modern Tyria, the largest force of oppression are the Elder Dragons. They’re forces of destruction. They’re Monsters that must be Hunted to extinction. Dragon Hunter, incidentally, is very likely (though never explicitly stated) to be inspired by the Monster Hunter series. In Monster Hunter you’ll use a Longbow (or a Hammer, Greatsword, Sword, etc) to hunt things much larger than you, and much more powerful “on paper”. You’ll use traps to capture and damage enemies (Test of Faith, Dragon’s Maw, Procession of Blades) and to support your allies (Purification, Light’s Judgement, Fragments of Faith). Mechanically, Dragon Hunter expands on the Guardian’s ability to control space, or Area Denial. Symbols and Wards were already a good source of this, but weren’t quite enough. Traps expand and improve on that capability, so that with all three (something that DH with LB and Traps has), The Guardian can declare ownership of an area and defend it well. This was/is actually reflected well by a defending DH in pvp matches; where they claim a point, and other classes will have to play around the expectation that there are traps waiting to annihilate them if they misplay. The Symbols and Wards expand that territory and containment. DH fits very well with Longbow and Traps in this regard. There’s nothing about a concept of a Holy Warrior that precludes it from acting as it does (even if that was the case, this could just be seen as an expansion of the idea of Holy Warrior)

For the future, I wouldn’t be surprised of Tomes were the focus, according to the dialogue from devs. Tomes could be implemented a variety of ways (like Revenant’s Legends, or Engineer’s Kits, or others). As far as what aspect of Guardian gets expanded on, or what new aspect gets added, I have no clue. Condition based builds still have an opportunity even though I think Burning can do most of the heavy lifting. Some people want to expand defensive capabilities, and others want to expand healing/support capabilities. All three of those things could even be touched on purely by logical options for Tome design. As far as weapons go, I’m not sure if there’s anything the Guardian needs in its toolkit. Some might say conditions, but I think that would be addressed in a “weapon agnostic” way. Another ranged/midrange option would be nice, but again, not imperative. I think the weapon will largely be the gravy of the new Espec while the overall theme will be the real meat and potatoes. More like Mesmer’s Shield rather than Necro’s Greatword.

I like the idea for a melee spear with a focus on condition damage. I also wouldn’t mind if the scepter was given more of a condition role as a weapon because it’s role as a physical dps ranged weapon is completely overshadowed by longbow (I have no idea why we have two weapons that fill the same role, where one is blatantly superior).

That way, you’d be able to invest in a condition build spec with both a melee and ranged weapon option to switch between.

The Scepter deals superior damage versus large hitboxes + inanimate objects though.
+ it allows for an off-hand.

I always pick Scepter over Longbow myself.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Elite specs also bring in new ideas for how a class will act. This was expressly talked about during the Profession CDI that happened so long ago, far before Elite Specs, or even HoT was revealed.

For example, Reaper was inspired by Horror movie villians. They’re often slow, but powerful and menacing to instill dread. Reaper reflects that in their slow activating, but very dangerous melee abilities. Berserker was inspired by various fighting games (Smash Brawler’s trait icon is almost identical to Ridely, a trophy featured in Super Smash Brothers: Brawl, other aspects are inspired by other fighting games). Rangers were never known for their ally healing, though they had fantastic personal sustain if built for it. Druid used both GW1 lore and traditional healing concepts to expand on Ranger’s ability to heal allies, pushing them in a new direction (Celestial Avatar form correlates well to Necro’s Death Shroud mechanically, if anyone likes to make inter-professional comparisons. More on that later).

Interesting. I honestly thought Reaper was a rip-off of death knight from WoW (not complaining, I made a toon specifically to be a GS wielding engine of destruction). While I have a druid, the main skills I have used to heal my team have been healing spring and spirit of nature (I use CA mainly to proc Grace of the Land with the #4 skill). So I didn’t really see the heal thing as something new.

Berserker: Smash Brothers? wow….

For Guardian, thematically Dragon Hunter expands on the sense of Justice espoused by base Guardian. Sometimes you defend the weak from oppression, but other times you might go out and smite the oppression before it has a chance to oppress. It very much speaks to the Cleave and Smite aspect of “holy warriors”. In modern Tyria, the largest force of oppression are the Elder Dragons. They’re forces of destruction. They’re Monsters that must be Hunted to extinction. Dragon Hunter, incidentally, is very likely (though never explicitly stated) to be inspired by the Monster Hunter series. In Monster Hunter you’ll use a Longbow (or a Hammer, Greatsword, Sword, etc) to hunt things much larger than you, and much more powerful “on paper”. You’ll use traps to capture and damage enemies (Test of Faith, Dragon’s Maw, Procession of Blades) and to support your allies (Purification, Light’s Judgement, Fragments of Faith). Mechanically, Dragon Hunter expands on the Guardian’s ability to control space, or Area Denial. Symbols and Wards were already a good source of this, but weren’t quite enough. Traps expand and improve on that capability, so that with all three (something that DH with LB and Traps has), The Guardian can declare ownership of an area and defend it well. This was/is actually reflected well by a defending DH in pvp matches; where they claim a point, and other classes will have to play around the expectation that there are traps waiting to annihilate them if they misplay. The Symbols and Wards expand that territory and containment. DH fits very well with Longbow and Traps in this regard. There’s nothing about a concept of a Holy Warrior that precludes it from acting as it does (even if that was the case, this could just be seen as an expansion of the idea of Holy Warrior)

Ok when explained that way, I have a lot less of an issue with DH. It’s still not my favorite elite spec, but I can accept it more with that explanation.

For the future, I wouldn’t be surprised of Tomes were the focus, according to the dialogue from devs. Tomes could be implemented a variety of ways (like Revenant’s Legends, or Engineer’s Kits, or others). As far as what aspect of Guardian gets expanded on, or what new aspect gets added, I have no clue. Condition based builds still have an opportunity even though I think Burning can do most of the heavy lifting. Some people want to expand defensive capabilities, and others want to expand healing/support capabilities. All three of those things could even be touched on purely by logical options for Tome design. As far as weapons go, I’m not sure if there’s anything the Guardian needs in its toolkit. Some might say conditions, but I think that would be addressed in a “weapon agnostic” way. Another ranged/midrange option would be nice, but again, not imperative. I think the weapon will largely be the gravy of the new Espec while the overall theme will be the real meat and potatoes. More like Mesmer’s Shield rather than Necro’s Greatword.

Agreed here too. I would love to see Tomes as Kits, but that’s just me. Legends would complicate build design as the class is already set up with a more traditional "a la carte: 6-10 skill set. As for a weapon, someone mentioned a MH focus (with a skin that looks like a tome or book). I agree on this too: the weapon could be whatever, the Tomes are the clear focus for this possible spec. I really, really hope they go with this one.

Nero.8047:

The Scepter deals superior damage versus large hitboxes + inanimate objects though.
+ it allows for an off-hand.

I always pick Scepter over Longbow myself.

So it’s superior in a minority of situations. The offhand argument might be nice if we had better offhands. Only the focus is good for much, and usually it benefits melee use more than ranged.

I still think either way it doesn’t make sense to have two weapons fill almost exactly the same role. We have no dedicated main hand condition weapons, so that’s a gap that could still be filled.

Nero.8047:

The Scepter deals superior damage versus large hitboxes + inanimate objects though.
+ it allows for an off-hand.

I always pick Scepter over Longbow myself.

I don’t think that the scepter being useful in a few niche scenarios constitutes an entire weapon when another weapon fulfills an almost identical role (and is better at it). In most situations, the longbow is bounds better than the scepter. If the scepter took on a ranged-support or ranged-condition damage role, it’d be a much more unique and interesting weapon.

New elite: Flameforger

Allows to use Torch in the main hand and adds Wells abilities.

Torch1: small AOE attacks around you, dealing low direct damage and burning struck enemies for short duration.
Torch2: summon spirit dagger to attack nearby enemies and burn them.
Torch3: transform into pure flame and rush forwards, dealing low direct damage to all enemies in your path and burn them.

Healing skill: Well of Purification: heal allies in the well and remove conditions. Heals additionally for every condition removed.

Utility1: Well of Flame Tornado: burn enemies in the well. Enemies, with certain number of burns stacked on them will be floated for short duration.
Utility2: Well of Dragon’s Heart: create a well, which will heal allies inside every time an enemy within the well takes damage from burn.
Utility3: Well of the Ancients: create a well, which will spawn a spirit ax every time an enemy enters this well. Spirit ax counts as a spirit weapon.
Utility4: Well of Last Star: allies can’t get downed in this well. Long cooldown.

Elite: Prophecy of Dawngate: place a massive well in targeted area, which will heal allies inside and shrinks every sec. After X sec in will trigger additional heal, burns enemies inside, knocks them outside of this well and this well will disappear.

Virtue of Justice becomes Elemental of Justice: transform into fire elemental, causing all your attacks to burn damaged enemies.
Virtue of Resolve becomes Star Light’s Resolve: target an area and cause allies in that area be healed every sec.
Virtue of Courage becomes Flaming Courage: adds Aegis to you every X sec and cause you to burn nearby enemies every time you block.

Specialization.

Tier1:
1) Dark Flame Locket: stacking burn effect up to X time cause enemies to be affected by torment. (x sec cd)
2) Never Winter: your healing skills will remove all chill effects from all affected allies and grants might to them.
3) Shining Disintegration: your critical strikes against burning enemies will gain +X ferocity.

Keystone2: Flame Crafter: your ground targetable abilities will last for 0.5 sec longer. (+0.5 sec for non-well abilities)

Tier2:
1) Lightning Flames: adding burn effect on an enemy have X% chance to strike your target with lightning, which will deal direct damage.
2) Entropy of Heat: adding burn effect on an enemy have X% change to affect your target with a chill. Your chills weal deal condition damage.
3) Moon Fall Flames: all your attacks, who doesn’t add burn effect on their own, will add a burn effect on critical strike.

Keystone3: Life From Ashes: heal yourself for X% of damage you deal to enemies who are affected by burn.

Tier3:
1) Fire of Creation: your spirit weapons will last until killed. (maximum number of spirit daggers: 1)
2) Flames of Balance: your ground targetable abilities will add vigor to all allies and weakness to all enemies. (x sec cd)
3) Almighty Reconstruction: main hand weapons, who doesn’t add burn effect on their own, will cause you to gain +X bonus power and +X bonus ferocity.

bearshaman.3421:

Interesting. I honestly thought Reaper was a rip-off of death knight from WoW (not complaining, I made a toon specifically to be a GS wielding engine of destruction). While I have a druid, the main skills I have used to heal my team have been healing spring and spirit of nature (I use CA mainly to proc Grace of the Land with the #4 skill). So I didn’t really see the heal thing as something new.

Berserker: Smash Brothers? wow….

Some of those explanations are conjecture, but many are confirmed right from the source. Reaper being inspired by horror movie villains is from Anet themselves. Same with Berserker being inspired by fighting games and DH being a more proactive form of justice.

Berserker wasn’t inspired by Smash exclusively, but fighting games as a whole.

• Smash Brawler icon comparison
• Gunflame
• Bloody Roar
• Heat the Soul
• Eternal Champion
• Primal Rage
• Last Blaze
• Savage Instinct
• Dead or Alive
• Fatal Frenzy
• King of Fires

DH being inspired by Monster Hunter was something I got almost instantly. It makes way too much sense for it to not have been a factor. Other Especs like Chronomancer or Druid don’t necessarily have to be inspired by a third-party source. There was enough GW1 lore to create those two by themselves. Then again, there’s no reason they couldn’t have been inspired by something else in addition.

If there’s something I love about games like MMOs, is that they’re chock full of references. Even better when you can make references in your design.

I hope they add something that deals with the massive projectile hate.

Anet fixing Scepter !

Ranged spear + better shouts, add “chants”, and “echoes”… ¬_¬
Make it happen, Anet

bearshaman.3421:

Ok when explained that way, I have a lot less of an issue with DH. It’s still not my favorite elite spec, but I can accept it more with that explanation.

You really didn’t see that without Ghotistyx’s explanation? I thought it was obvious enough. You might need more points of reference. AD&D and Warhammer are great for this for example. The class section in Forgotten Realms wiki is awesome.

PS. I +1’d most of Ghotistyx’s posts in the last 2 pages. Finally a voice of reason.

Yannir.4132:

bearshaman.3421:

Ok when explained that way, I have a lot less of an issue with DH. It’s still not my favorite elite spec, but I can accept it more with that explanation.

You really didn’t see that without Ghotistyx’s explanation? I thought it was obvious enough. You might need more points of reference. AD&D and Warhammer are great for this for example. The class section in Forgotten Realms wiki is awesome.

PS. I +1’d most of Ghotistyx’s posts in the last 2 pages. Finally a voice of reason.

I’ve played D&D for over 25 years. The guardian has been compared to the paladin and the cleric classes from that by Anet people. Neither of those classes iconically use a longbow. Same goes in Forgotten Realms, which is just one of several campaign settings D&D has used over the years. It is precisely because I’ve played these games that I had a problem with DH. It seemed like they were merging ranger or scout into the paladin/cleric type class.

Can’t say for warhammer, never played it.

bearshaman.3421:

I’ve played D&D for over 25 years. The guardian has been compared to the paladin and the cleric classes from that by Anet people. Neither of those classes iconically use a longbow. Same goes in Forgotten Realms, which is just one of several campaign settings D&D has used over the years. It is precisely because I’ve played these games that I had a problem with DH. It seemed like they were merging ranger or scout into the paladin/cleric type class.

But Cleric with Zen Archery is glorious.

Adding Spear as a land weapon, like Paragons. It would make sense.

Making the Spear abilities centered around piercing holy light through targets, and burning. It could be Condition focused, which is needed for a Guardian. It being a Mainhand would be ideal.

I personally think an axe is too savage of a weapon for a Guardian.

Rifles and Pistols aren’t really holy weapons.

I could see Warhorn MAYBE working. It could be a group support weapon, and have skills centered around the wrath of holy spirits.

An Offhand Mace could work like the Warhorn instead.

bearshaman.3421:

I’ve played D&D for over 25 years. The guardian has been compared to the paladin and the cleric classes from that by Anet people. Neither of those classes iconically use a longbow. Same goes in Forgotten Realms, which is just one of several campaign settings D&D has used over the years. It is precisely because I’ve played these games that I had a problem with DH. It seemed like they were merging ranger or scout into the paladin/cleric type class.

Can’t say for warhammer, never played it.

In fact, in older editions of DnD, I don’t think clerics could even used bladed/pointed weapons. Not that I think that referencing another franchise validates the theme for something in this game, like the dragonhunter supposedly fitting in because it supposedly references MH (which essentially has nothing to do with guardians).

bearshaman.3421:

Yannir.4132:

bearshaman.3421:

Ok when explained that way, I have a lot less of an issue with DH. It’s still not my favorite elite spec, but I can accept it more with that explanation.

You really didn’t see that without Ghotistyx’s explanation? I thought it was obvious enough. You might need more points of reference. AD&D and Warhammer are great for this for example. The class section in Forgotten Realms wiki is awesome.

PS. I +1’d most of Ghotistyx’s posts in the last 2 pages. Finally a voice of reason.

I’ve played D&D for over 25 years. The guardian has been compared to the paladin and the cleric classes from that by Anet people. Neither of those classes iconically use a longbow. Same goes in Forgotten Realms, which is just one of several campaign settings D&D has used over the years. It is precisely because I’ve played these games that I had a problem with DH. It seemed like they were merging ranger or scout into the paladin/cleric type class.

Can’t say for warhammer, never played it.

Good class development usually runs around it’s restrictions, it’s true. Sometimes, though, you have to step out of that hamster wheel, and approach class development from the perspective of what it can/could do. That’s why they brought out DH, to try and introduce a ranged playstyle to a traditionally melee class.

PS. I brought out FR because it’s the most comprehensive of all DnD worlds. Greyhawk and others have great ideas but lore for FR is by far the widest. That includes class lore.

Yannir.4132:

bearshaman.3421:

Yannir.4132:

bearshaman.3421:

Ok when explained that way, I have a lot less of an issue with DH. It’s still not my favorite elite spec, but I can accept it more with that explanation.

You really didn’t see that without Ghotistyx’s explanation? I thought it was obvious enough. You might need more points of reference. AD&D and Warhammer are great for this for example. The class section in Forgotten Realms wiki is awesome.

PS. I +1’d most of Ghotistyx’s posts in the last 2 pages. Finally a voice of reason.

I’ve played D&D for over 25 years. The guardian has been compared to the paladin and the cleric classes from that by Anet people. Neither of those classes iconically use a longbow. Same goes in Forgotten Realms, which is just one of several campaign settings D&D has used over the years. It is precisely because I’ve played these games that I had a problem with DH. It seemed like they were merging ranger or scout into the paladin/cleric type class.

Can’t say for warhammer, never played it.

Good class development usually runs around it’s restrictions, it’s true. Sometimes, though, you have to step out of that hamster wheel, and approach class development from the perspective of what it can/could do. That’s why they brought out DH, to try and introduce a ranged playstyle to a traditionally melee class.

PS. I brought out FR because it’s the most comprehensive of all DnD worlds. Greyhawk and others have great ideas but lore for FR is by far the widest. That includes class lore.

I get that about class development, and that’s why I can accept Ghostiyx’s (sp?) explanation. I’m just saying that Anet basing guardian off of two D&D classes that stereotypically do not use the longbow was the reason I had a hard time accepting it in the first place, contrary to your experience of looking at guardian through the lens of D&D. Not saying your experience is invalid; that would be dumb lol. No one’s experience is invalid, ever. Just saying that there is more than one way to look at it.

In any case, based on G’s (I’m not gonna spell it right) explanation, I kinda wish the “traps” weren’t PBAoEs but I guess that’s what kiting is for lol. Guardian has always been the “immovable object” in my head, so it’s weird to switch to a more mobile playstyle.

On another note, elite specs can also take an aspect of a class that’s already there and expand on it. Such as what happened with Druid being an expansion of the Nature Magic tree, or Daredevil expanding on Acrobatics. The Tomes idea I think would expand primarily on Honor, though if it is done like the engineer kits, than each one could expand on different aspects of the class, which would be better imo because it wouldn’t completely overshadow the base class like some of the elites do now. For instance, one tome make focus around healing and support, and get used in support builds, while a different tome might focus on burning dps, and be good for a condi build. You would still have slots of existing skills, and it would increase build diversity, not limit it like pretty much all the elite specs did this time around.

Offhand sword some kind of zealot that’s going to give a much needed rework to mainhand sword as well is my idea. Or offhand mace as the other option