Guild Wars 2

So, after all these recent changes, I realized that my retaliation build is still untouched. I wanted to fill some of the complainers in by demonstrating the retaliation ONLY side of my build. This is not a complete guide on guardian in anyway. Just one aspect of my build. Please see the TLDR if you do not want to read the wall of text that follows.

First to clarify: You can still do near endless retaliation (while in combat!).

So first off as a disclaimer: This is a bunker/hold point build that I play this with. Also you can use other weps besides scepter/shield. You could do scepter torch for instance. If you see a melee coming, switch to sword or mace since you do not need to worry about being kited. But more on that later…

BUILD: apparently Guild Wars2 Skills does not keep a consistent link. I am going to post the build (at the bottom of the last post) until I can create a link to it that will hold.

The way this build works best is to wait until you are in combat, and then use your retaliation with some sense. You can’t just spam it. Well, you can, however your virtues will be useless.

So onto how the build works:

Each virtue gives 4 seconds of retaliation. So that’s 12 seconds. However with the Renewed Focus ultimate you can double that (if you spam. However as I said, this build is meant to be used with some sort of sense).

So now we have 24 seconds of retaliation. However the build works much better if you spread out the retaliation by incorporating the hammer #1 3rd strike (symbol of protection) + #2 (mighty blow) which is a blast finisher. This gives 4 seconds of retaliation on a 5 second cool down. Once again this assumes you are in range of your target and I will cover that more in depth later.

Anyway, if you look at that alone, you can alreakittenep retaliation up (technically) for 48 out of 60 seconds. Now I realize that in combat it is hard to constantly hit your hammer, however, remember that as long as you hit the first two hits your third will put out the symbol regardless if you hit your target or not. Also I do understand that there are ranged classes in the game, and I am getting to that next.

So, now that we have covered that you can get 48 seconds of retaliation per minute, we still have other skills to use. Stand your ground! is a great skill, not only because it gives stability for 6 seconds on a 24 second cool down (traited), but it also gives 6 seconds retaliation base, but with the trait Vengeful in virtues, it makes it it 7.5 seconds retaliation. So now that is 48 + 7.5 = 55.5 seconds retaliation out of 60 seconds. However, if you realized that Stand your ground! is a 24 second cool down, then you almost caught me, but I remembered that as well. So technically since Stand your ground is up 2 times in 60 seconds, we have an additional 7.5 seconds. So that’s 55.5 + 7.5 = *63 seconds retaliation.

So to clarify that is 63 seconds retaliation per 60 seconds. So if that is not enough, we still have one more skill Save yourselves!. This gives an additional 12 seconds retaliation base + trait = 15 seconds retaliation.
So now that’s 63 + 15 = 78 seconds retaliation. So that is all without virtues which used with the Renewed Focus ultimate can give 24 seconds retaliation. So back when I said use the virtues with some sense, this is what I meant. If you are fighting a ranged class and can only get in their face a little bit (aka with hammer immobilize plus jump or scepter immobilize, switch wep then go with hammer and use that immobilize when they get away a bit again, etc). Combined with all these tools you can easily keep retaliation up.

So since as of this moment, I guess, I have realized I am writing a retaliation guide, and will have to change the opener ><, let’s talk about ranged. To clarify: I am going to be using times with the +25% duration trait and not breaking them out by base + trait any longer.

So, People say that you can’t keep up retaliation indefinitely? How about doing it with only having to hit the target with 4-6 auto attacks? So we have the following skills (breakout):

- Stand your ground! = 7.5 seconds
- Save yourselves! = 15 seconds
- Virtues + Renewed Focus = 24 seconds
= *46.5 seconds retaliation

Now on top of that, if you were to use Stand your ground! at the beginning of a fight, which you may or may not do depending on a situation, then you have 1.5 seconds to wait before the cool down is up and that’s an additional 7.5 seconds. So that’s 46.5 + 7.5 = 54 seconds retaliation out of 60 seconds.

So first off, in that 46.5 seconds, you should be able to land at least 2 auto attacks and fill the missing 1.5 seconds of retaliation with a 4 second retaliation from the Symbol of protection + Mighty blow. Onto of that, if you use Virtue of Justice towards the beginning of this combo, you have it up after 30 seconds which gives you another 4 seconds. So that is now 46.5(from the skills breakout above) + 4 (2 auto attacks landed + symbol + Mighty blow) + 7.5 (stand your ground again) + 4 (virtue of justice again) = 62 seconds retaliation out of 60 seconds.

So how does this equal endless retaliation?

Non ranged (aka being able to auto attack your target) should be obvious.

For ranged (breakdown) (where you may not be able to also hit your target with auto attacks due to being kited or what not):

Stand your ground = 7.5 seconds retaliation on 24 second cool down
Save yourselves = 15 seconds retaliation on 48 second cool down
Virtue of Justice = 4 seconds retaliation on 30 second cool down
Virtue of Resolve = 4 seconds retaliation on 60 second cool down
Virtue of Courage = 4 seconds retaliation on 90 second cool down
Renewed Focus = 12 seconds retaliation on 90 second cool down
Auto attacks + mighty blow = 8 seconds retaliation on 60 second cool down

To explain auto attacks + mighty blow: Say you land 2 auto attacks and lay the symbol but have to use both scepter + hammer immobilize to do so, with a wep swap. So that’s 4 seconds immobilize on a 20 second cool down (since Chains of Light) (scepter immobilize) is a 20 second cool down. So that is 8 seconds (2 different uses of auto attack + mighty blow retaliation per 60 seconds (then an additional combo at 60 second mark).

For those of you that want math based on cool down timers (here is a possible way to do it):
7.5 (stand your ground)
+ 15 (save yourselves)
+ 4 (virtue of justice)
+ 7.5 (stand your ground again) (I’d use this as soon as off cool down since retaliation duration stacks)
+ 4 (virtue of resolve)
+ 4 (virtue of courage)
+ 8 (immobilize + auto attacks + mighty blow combo x 2 times before the 60 second mark – just put here because they are thrown in where you see best)
+ 7.5 (stand your ground)
+ 15 (save yourselves again) (I’d use this as soon as off cool down since the retaliation duration will stack)
+ 4 (virtue of justice)
+ 7.5 (stand your ground)
+ 4 (immobilize + auto attacks + mighty blow – right around 60 second mark
+ 4 (virtue of resolve)
+ 4 (virtue of courage)
+ 8 (auto attack + mighty blow used throughout where needed or seen fit x 2)
+ 7.5 (stand your ground)
+ 4 (virtue of justice) (used with auto attack + mighty blow – same time as using stand your ground to make sure you land it (just an example here for some random guidance)
+ 15 (save yourselves)
I am going to stop here.
= 130.5 seconds used in less than 120 seconds so basically 130.5 seconds retaliation in 120 seconds.

As you can see this would never end. You can always continue to keep retaliation up if you want. THE BREAKOUT DOESN’T EVEN USE THE RENEWED FOCUS ULT!!! That is another 12 seconds you can use to fill in blank spots or what not if needed. You even get so much retaliation that it starts to overlap.

This combo may not be able to be pulled off in full combat or team fights, but one on one it would be really easy to keep retaliation up this long if say two bunkers were fighting. Also, in team fights, the chances of you being able to auto attack someone or multiple someones to get your auto attack symbol + mighty blow retaliation off are pretty high so keeping up retaliation even then is not really difficult.

TLDR;

Retaliation can easily be kept up indefinably with a little finesse. Hammer auto attacks create a symbol and mighty blow activates area retaliation (which does affect you) which you can use to fill gaps. Mighty blow = 5 second cool down and the retaliation lasts for 4 seconds. That’s 48 seconds of retaliation, just from the hammer, per 60 seconds. For melee fights it should be obvious how (with the build linked at the beginning) you can keep retaliation up.

For ranged I encourage you see the ranged (breakdown) but to summarize: utilities + auto attacks + mighty blow + virtues = endless retaliation as long as you use your auto attacks appropriately… aka every 20 seconds. Also using renewed focus guarantees your ability to keep up retaliation indefinitely.

Temp Build Posting:

Weapons
- Hammer (Stamina)
- Scepter/Shield (energy/bloodlust)
(sigils do not matter for the purposes of this post but i gave them anyway)

Traits
-20 Valor (V IX)
-30 Honor(III VI XII) – VI could be ‘I’ if you want an additional 4 seconds retaliation
-20 Virtues(II IX)

Amulet (even though for this post its not important)
- Soldiers w/ soldier’s jewel

Runes
- Earth 6/6
(I still like the look of earth runes after yesterdays patch, however I have not tested it enough to decide one way or another yet. For now they stay)

Utilities
- Stand Your Ground!
- Save Yourselves!
-Sanctuary or Spirit Hammer (not essential for this discussion)

I’m starting to believe that all this has been done to kitten guardian’s greatsword “fieldability” and not the retaliation. Leaping out of light combo field still gives you 10 seconds of retaliation, yeeey, but then again you can make SoW every 1 minute. Although Wall of Reflection is considered a light combo field o.O
IMO using WoR is wrong for combo field, just make it normal ANet

Ravenmoon.5318:

I’m starting to believe that all this has been done to kitten guardian’s greatsword “fieldability” and not the retaliation. Leaping out of light combo field still gives you 10 seconds of retaliation, yeeey, but then again you can make SoW every 1 minute. Although Wall of Reflection is considered a light combo field o.O
IMO using WoR is wrong for combo field, just make it normal ANet

I believe it only gives 3 now? I was testing it about an hour ago and I was getting 4 seconds with the trait.

Been saying that all night last night. The ability to keep up Retaliation in a dedicated build is unaffected. Radiance 15, Honor 10 and Virtue 15 is really all it takes for PVE. That’s only a 10 point deviation for a lot of people.

Oy vey. All Anet did was make it so every Greatsword Guardian can’t keep retaliation up all the time. You now have to spec a little into it if that’s what you want. Greatsword’s AoE DPS actually increased a bit because Whirling Wrath and Leap of Faith got a cooldown decrease.

Here’s the irony: you have to take 7.5 x your health pool to kill someone with the same health pool (lowest one in the game, so probably still won’t be dead) as you using retaliation. It’s rubbish!

" Greatsword’s AoE DPS actually increased a bit because Whirling Wrath and Leap of Faith got a cooldown decrease."

There was no cooldown decrease. Do you even play a guardian?

Karew.2169:

Oy vey. All Anet did was make it so every Greatsword Guardian can’t keep retaliation up all the time. You now have to spec a little into it if that’s what you want. Greatsword’s AoE DPS actually increased a bit because Whirling Wrath and Leap of Faith got a cooldown decrease.

How was the AOE dps increased? No the cool downs were not decreased.

Svarty.8019:

Here’s the irony: you have to take 7.5 x your health pool to kill someone with the same health pool (lowest one in the game, so probably still won’t be dead) as you using retaliation. It’s rubbish!

Obviously retaliation does not guarantee that you will kill anyone, infact its most useful (imo) to be used against heavy dmg targets, more then another bunker for instance.

Schakal.6091:

Been saying that all night last night. The ability to keep up Retaliation in a dedicated build is unaffected. Radiance 15, Honor 10 and Virtue 15 is really all it takes for PVE. That’s only a 10 point deviation for a lot of people.

Honestly I just pvp, but your right, you don’t need to do all of the traits exactly as mine. Only certain ones are for the retaliation, the rest are for the build

Karew.2169:

Oy vey. All Anet did was make it so every Greatsword Guardian can’t keep retaliation up all the time. You now have to spec a little into it if that’s what you want. Greatsword’s AoE DPS actually increased a bit because Whirling Wrath and Leap of Faith got a cooldown decrease.

Grand misinformation there. Whirling Wrath was always 10 seconds cooldown. Leap of Faith has a 5 second shorter cooldown than before (20s down to 15s). That would be great except it is not an AoE skill, it is single target, or it has a very narrow attack arc, and it in no way equally compensates the 10s increase on symbol of wrath cooldown.

You claim a DPS increase without understanding or appreciation of the synergistic properties Symbol of Wrath and the whirling/leap combos and traits. You could make the symbol bigger (hit more enemies), last longer (hit enemies for more ticks), heal allies per tick, it has massively nerfed the DPS capabilities (especially AoE) of the greatsword and to some extent the support abilities the symbol provided. This was accounting for a great deal of prior DPS on greatsword users, especially if fighting toe to toe with other melee users.

I still get along just fine with my trusty hammer and staff, but I can see the huge nerf as clear as day. I think greatsword needed balancing a bit due to the high attack speed of whirling wrath, and great battlefield control, but this is a bit too far.

Whirling Wrath dps numbers for me were high absolutely, but with that being said some warriors claim 20k+ dps on some attacks… Not to mention if you execute WW on a moving target who’s possibly 2 steps ahead of you(?) the 600 range delve(lol) is broken hard.

casper.2947:

Schakal.6091:

Been saying that all night last night. The ability to keep up Retaliation in a dedicated build is unaffected. Radiance 15, Honor 10 and Virtue 15 is really all it takes for PVE. That’s only a 10 point deviation for a lot of people.

Honestly I just pvp, but your right, you don’t need to do all of the traits exactly as mine. Only certain ones are for the retaliation, the rest are for the build

Oh yeah. Why I specified PVE. Didn’t want to contradict you, just support what you were saying.

The worst of it all is that they just made it 1-1-1-1-1-1 character. Hell you don’t even need to spam it, just right click on it for auto-attack and there you have it, in PvE all you have to do is running in circles like an idiot. Of course the kill time is increased this way, who cares, after all the game manifesto was all a gimmick to make up a hype train. I’m extremely frustrated to ANet, this is the most irrational nerf they have done to any of the classes, and they don’t have the guts to respond and/or explain in either one of ALL the major Q.Q threads. Greatsword is EXTREMELY boring now. Imagine how a guy with legendary GS would feel. I pitty them, since I use only a mystic claymore which is not that expensive but sheesh :|

I do feel let down. PvP with guardian used to be fun, then sPvP happened :/

As stated in another thread, I have no idea why would you listen to the minority of sPvP players, who, infact, could reroll in exactly 10 minutes and rebuild their traits/stats completely free AND quickly.

Ravenmoon.5318:

The worst of it all is that they just made it 1-1-1-1-1-1 character. Hell you don’t even need to spam it, just right click on it for auto-attack and there you have it, in PvE all you have to do is running in circles like an idiot. Of course the kill time is increased this way, who cares, after all the game manifesto was all a gimmick to make up a hype train. I’m extremely frustrated to ANet, this is the most irrational nerf they have done to any of the classes, and they don’t have the guts to respond and/or explain in either one of ALL the major Q.Q threads. Greatsword is EXTREMELY boring now. Imagine how a guy with legendary GS would feel. I pitty them, since I use only a mystic claymore which is not that expensive but sheesh :|

I do feel let down. PvP with guardian used to be fun, then sPvP happened :/

As stated in another thread, I have no idea why would you listen to the minority of sPvP players, who, infact, could reroll in exactly 10 minutes and rebuild their traits/stats completely free AND quickly.

I understand what your saying. I still love my guardian and I rarely do sPVP. I stick to tPVP with my team. I never really used the GS since I actually enjoy being a bunker (weird i know). Anyway I am curious to see what they try next to fix retaliation. Honestly I don’t understand why they do not rework retaliation itself instead of things that give retaliation.

Afkjosh.3912:

There was no cooldown decrease. Do you even play a guardian?

casper.2947:

How was the AOE dps increased? No the cool downs were not decreased.

voidelysium.7285:

Karew.2169:

Oy vey. All Anet did was make it so every Greatsword Guardian can’t keep retaliation up all the time. You now have to spec a little into it if that’s what you want. Greatsword’s AoE DPS actually increased a bit because Whirling Wrath and Leap of Faith got a cooldown decrease.

Grand misinformation there. Whirling Wrath was always 10 seconds cooldown. Leap of Faith has a 5 second shorter cooldown than before (20s down to 15s). That would be great except it is not an AoE skill, it is single target, or it has a very narrow attack arc, and it in no way equally compensates the 10s increase on symbol of wrath cooldown.

This was my mistake: Wrath did not get a cooldown decrease, but Leap did receive a decrease from 20 to 15 seconds. Also: Leap does hit everything near the target foe with blind and damage.

I am not saying this makes up for the Symbol change, but now I have corrected myself.

Didn’t hurt ret builds at all, even though that was the claimed goal. What it did do, was reduce GS damage overall and ruin some Symbol based builds.

I agree. The intended purpose and the result do not match up at all.

@casper – Indeed, Take Zeal for example, an aspect of the line is for Greatsword (5% increase in damage, does heals) but look at all the inbetween (non selectable) traits.
—-
Zealot’s Speed – Create a Symbol of Wrath when your health drops below 25% (30-second cooldown).
Fair enough, no change here.

Symbolic Exposure – Symbols apply vulnerability to foes.
Usage decreased due to SoW cooldown.

Symbolic Power – Increases damage of symbols.
Usage decreased due to SoW cooldown.
—-
So if you went full Zeal for the Greatsword (not saying i do, just saying if you did) it just got a massive (not slight) nerf. I don’t think they even realised what the cooldown increase affected (or at least i hope they didn’t).

I myself used Zeal for my spirit weapon build, but i used a GS sword with it, so i got nerfed not only on the GS, but also Symbolic Exposure and Symbolic Power.

MajorMelchett.6042:

@casper – Indeed, Take Zeal for example, an aspect of the line is for Greatsword (5% increase in damage, does heals) but look at all the inbetween (non selectable) traits.
—-
Zealot’s Speed – Create a Symbol of Wrath when your health drops below 25% (30-second cooldown).
Fair enough, no change here.

Symbolic Exposure – Symbols apply vulnerability to foes.
Usage decreased due to SoW cooldown.

Symbolic Power – Increases damage of symbols.
Usage decreased due to SoW cooldown.
—-
So if you went full Zeal for the Greatsword (not saying i do, just saying if you did) it just got a massive (not slight) nerf. I don’t think they even realised what the cooldown increase affected (or at least i hope they didn’t).

I myself used Zeal for my spirit weapon build, but i used a GS sword with it, so i got nerfed not only on the GS, but also Symbolic Exposure and Symbolic Power.

I see what your saying, your right. When I said slight nerf I clearly misspoke.

OP,

Some very thorough explanations here and great insights. Thanks for the write-up.

Just to clarify, it isn’t any harder now – people were doing similar builds to this in PvP anyway. In WvW particularly using symbol of wrath is asking to be loaded with certain conditions or similar thanks to the self-root, so a lot of competent people barely even used it in the first place.

Great, one issue.

It’s called an elite not an ultimate.

Karew.2169

Oy vey. All Anet did was make it so every Greatsword Guardian can’t keep retaliation up all the time. You now have to spec a little into it if that’s what you want. Greatsword’s AoE DPS actually increased a bit because Whirling Wrath and Leap of Faith got a cooldown decrease.

Karew.2169

This was my mistake: Wrath did not get a cooldown decrease, but Leap did receive a decrease from 20 to 15 seconds. Also: Leap does hit everything near the target foe with blind and damage.

I am not saying this makes up for the Symbol change, but now I have corrected myself.

The problem with what you said before isn’t only the cooldown numbers but also the idea that greatsword deals more damage. Because it in fact deals less. Check out how much damage the symbol does and realize that it did double before. (half the cooldown) Leap is negative damage in your rotation. It is more DPS beneficial to just auto attack if the only skill you have up is leap. In fact by reducing the cooldown of leap you can now use another light field to extend retaliation further while on the go.

Simply put they outright nerfed greatsword total DPS, AOE DPS, Combos, and healing, but didn’t at all touch retaliation. You can still have endless retaliation perfectly fine with almost any weapon as this thread here has shown.

This is why people are upset and confused. If ANet said, “We feel great sword deals too much damage (Yea right) and needed a damage nerf." Then at least we would understand what they are doing. but to say, “We are nerfing retaliation.” and then nerf everything except retaliation when it comes to great swords is completely baffling.

Umm i still have endless retal even without this build… and didnt they reduce the cd on leap and ww? Tell ya the truth we might of got nerfed for pve but in wvw most of my dps from gs comes from leaping to get close to my target and ww, and as i said before i have unlimted retal even without useing the symbol so i really dont care.