Guild Wars 2

As I sift through dps guardian builds I keep wondering why zeal is so under utilized, almost to the point of being ignored. I understand why this might be for the classic support guardian builds, but is power a poor stat for guardians or is the entire trait line itself flawed in some way?

I have little interest in PvP, and I realize you can throw any build against the wall, close your eyes, and kill in PvE, but I like to see really big numbers flash across the screen.

Power is a great stat for guardians. The problem with the zeal line is that the traits themselves are lackluster compared to those you can pick up elsewhere and you can make up for the lack of power with gear. DPS builds sometimes go 10 into zeal to pick up +10% damage to burning targets, but usually no more than that. You have to give up a lot of utility and healing if you invest too much in zeal and the other trait lines offer nice damage boosts as well if you are building for DPS.

- Zeal’s minor traits only take effect if your targets stand still.
- Zeal’s minor traits only work with 4 of the weapons.
- Zeal’s master and grandmaster trait selections offer very little in the way of increased damage.
- You always need some survivability, and Valor and Honor traits are great for that. You can make up the extra power with gear.

Exedore.6320:

- Zeal’s minor traits only take effect if your targets stand still.
- Zeal’s minor traits only work with 4 of the weapons.
- Zeal’s master and grandmaster trait selections offer very little in the way of increased damage.
- You always need some survivability, and Valor and Honor traits are great for that. You can make up the extra power with gear.

All of the above. Zeal also focuses on symbols….neither 1h sword, scepter, torch, nor focus has a symbol. This makes the zeal line a huge waste versus what you can get from other trait lines.

edit…forgot to mention shield…also no symbol.

working out on a 30/x/30/x/x build right now. it’s workable. most effective? maybe not, but i feel alright surviving, and definitely doing a lot of damage.

kudos goes to Amins of course. you can check out his Zealous Defender youtube vids. : )))

would definitely love a rework of the zeal traits though! just so Guards can add more variety to their builds.

ODB.6891:

Exedore.6320:

- Zeal’s minor traits only take effect if your targets stand still.
- Zeal’s minor traits only work with 4 of the weapons.
- Zeal’s master and grandmaster trait selections offer very little in the way of increased damage.
- You always need some survivability, and Valor and Honor traits are great for that. You can make up the extra power with gear.

All of the above. Zeal also focuses on symbols….neither 1h sword, scepter, torch, nor focus has a symbol. This makes the zeal line a huge waste versus what you can get from other trait lines.

This. Symbols are right on the edge of ‘applicable to every guardian’ and ‘too niche for minor traits’.

But the really frustrating thing about Zeal and symbols is that the weapons that are probably the best for use of symbols are Hammer (on the auto attack chain), Mace (8 second recharge, can use it on the run) and Staff (15 second recharge, but can be applied at a 1200 range). None of those weapons have traits in Zeal. The closest is binding jeopardy for the Hammer, all else is basically applicable to any guardian in general. The greatsword does have a symbol, but it’s on a 20 second recharge and (briefly) roots you while casting.

akamon.2769:

working out on a 30/x/30/x/x build right now. it’s workable. most effective? maybe not, but i feel alright surviving, and definitely doing a lot of damage.

kudos goes to Amins of course. you can check out his Zealous Defender youtube vids. : )))

would definitely love a rework of the zeal traits though! just so Guards can add more variety to their builds.

Look guys…

Builds are simple…

You Trait for damage, gear for damage.

You trait for defense, gear for damage.

You Trait for utility, you gear for playstyle.

You trait for Defense, you gear for Damage.

You trait for Defense, you gear for Defense.

It’s simple.

The line isn’t bad. It’s what people expect to do from traiting in that line.

If you’re going for a 30/x/30/x/x build and going “glass cannon” or, imho, Beryll at the least, pick up Sigils, Runes & Food that add healing or ~damage negation~.

did you know you could stack Sigil of Restoration w/ Omnom compote to get +1500 health per kill? Great for zerging…

Think outside the box.

Infiltrator runes… awesome…

And yes, our Zeal line has the least … ‘best feel’ to it, when compared to our other awesome trait lines… no doubt and I would be happy, as most of us vet guardians would, for a consolidation of usleess traits.

Amins.3710:

akamon.2769:

working out on a 30/x/30/x/x build right now. it’s workable. most effective? maybe not, but i feel alright surviving, and definitely doing a lot of damage.

kudos goes to Amins of course. you can check out his Zealous Defender youtube vids. : )))

would definitely love a rework of the zeal traits though! just so Guards can add more variety to their builds.

Look guys…

Builds are simple…

You Trait for damage, gear for damage.

You trait for defense, gear for damage.

You Trait for utility, you gear for playstyle.

You trait for Defense, you gear for Damage.

You trait for Defense, you gear for Defense.

It’s simple.

The line isn’t bad. It’s what people expect to do from traiting in that line.

If you’re going for a 30/x/30/x/x build and going “glass cannon” or, imho, Beryll at the least, pick up Sigils, Runes & Food that add healing or ~damage negation~.

did you know you could stack Sigil of Restoration w/ Omnom compote to get +1500 health per kill? Great for zerging…

Think outside the box.

Infiltrator runes… awesome…

And yes, our Zeal line has the least … ‘best feel’ to it, when compared to our other awesome trait lines… no doubt and I would be happy, as most of us vet guardians would, for a consolidation of usleess traits.

^^^^^

Pretty much sums it up. There are builds out there that can use it and work very well, but it does take a certain type of play style to make it “feel” right. And also as Amins said, would love some reworking of it to make it more than just 4-5 useful traits.

well said. : ))

that’s what i did. there’s so much you can do. and sometimes, the added power is all i wanted and it’s working amazingly for me.

at times, i feel there are too many builds out there. we can argue all day about how effective one build is against another, but, to me, in the end, it’s really all about how you feel and enjoy playing your builds.

and of course, doing damage and not dying is all a part of that. but traits / builds / minmaxes are the be all end all in gw2.

I think alot of it comes down to people really just need to try out new builds, and actually see what is out there for themselves. I did that with my most recent build and originally cringed at my low 33% crit damage. However, after playing it and testing it for a bit, the damage is still there, not as high as before, but still there.

Alot of people just instantly go “this build is garbage, it doesn’t have x,y, and z” but that is all a matter of perception and how you gear, and also how you play. I know most people prefer the AH/EM builds because they offer a good amount of survivability, and are not willing to let that go, but it is honestly very easy to get survivability out of different areas without relying solely on one trait set up.

The three key areas I always look at are damage, condition removal. and defense (mainly armor/self healing) And as Amins said, there are alot of combonations that people still have yet to look at to achieve said balance.

Despite the lack of minors that are worthwhile, Zeal 20 for Fiery Wrath and Greatsword damage is still worthwhile for GS damage builds. 20/25/x/x/x offers spectacular damage for that weapon. Everything else about it is terrible though, including the Grandmaster traits. You can also make the case for 20/30/x/x/x Scepter power/RHS if you use Scepters as your primary weapon.

foofad.5162:

Despite the lack of minors that are worthwhile, Zeal 20 for Fiery Wrath and Greatsword damage is still worthwhile for GS damage builds. 20/25/x/x/x offers spectacular damage for that weapon. Everything else about it is terrible though, including the Grandmaster traits. You can also make the case for 20/30/x/x/x Scepter power/RHS if you use Scepters as your primary weapon.

I’ve been trying a 10/30/20/x/x mace build with fiery wrath, right hand strength, and mace of justice. I’m not sure how I feel about the mace playstyle, but I think I’ve squeezed as much damage out of the mace as I can.

Mace naturally has higher single-target DPS in its autoattack than sword does, so you can actually get away with not taking the +5% damage trait to a certain extent. Consider 10/30/0/30/0 or 10/30/0/20/10 with Empowering Might, and Unscathed Contender. Use Retreat as a DPS tool.

Dexlmentia.7391:

As I sift through dps guardian builds I keep wondering why zeal is so under utilized, almost to the point of being ignored.

It seems here in the forums there was a time that Zeal was considered to be totally lackluster and crappy compared to the other builds.
I’m finding it sorta funny that there aren’t as many posts today bashing it compared to before, even though nothing has changed until now. Maybe people can learn after all!

Dexlmentia.7391:

I understand why this might be for the classic support guardian builds, but is power a poor stat for guardians or is the entire trait line itself flawed in some way?

Zeal is a good line. Zeal even improves Spirit Weapons which provide a good support (borderline OP in some cases), and Power is the best (at most times) damage increase stat you can get.
The problem with Zeal, in my opinion, is that Guardians for some reason can’t live without Altruistic Healing, and Honor is a great line with great options, leaving little to no points to Zeal.
When some Guardians think “I want to DpS!” they always go for Critical % and Damage, and doesn’t even think or try to calculate if that’s actually the best option. In their minds, more criticals = awesome damage. Even if it’s a 2.5 critical every 1/2 attack with… 1500 Power.

Also, Zeal’s grandmaster of choice is Zealous Blade, and when people notice the 25 healing from their attacks, they think “this sucks!” and “it should be buffed to 100 or more!” (and don’t even think that we’d be unstoppable godlike killing machines with it).
Well, compared to AH, which is 75~ healing per BOON, a 25~ per HIT seems rather weak indeed.

Just as a note, against 5 enemies (supposedly the player AoE cap), a Symbol of Wrath (5 hits) + Whirling Wrath (9 hits, not counting projectiles) equals to 25 * 14 = 350 * 5 = 1750.

With 5 allies inside your Symbol area, you get 75 * 5 (number of boons) * 5 (allies) = 1875.

Granted, it’s really easy to apply boons, but for an offensive line I don’t think that’s bad at all and suits it well. It could be made to work with all weapons though…

Exedore.6320:

- Zeal’s minor traits only take effect if your targets stand still.

Which is 90% of the case in PvE, and one of the causes of why Guardians are awesome point holders in PvP. You give little room for enemies to maneuver inside the cap point, and anyone who stays in your Symbol is going to go down really fast.

Exedore.6320:

- Zeal’s minor traits only work with 4 of the weapons.

Though it’s a bad point indeed, not all minors are equally functional.

Exedore.6320:

- Zeal’s master and grandmaster trait selections offer very little in the way of increased damage.

A 5% flat increase in damage is not enough? Other professions’ traits range from 5~10% increase in damage when it comes to weapons, and this means we’re balanced for it.
Grandmaster improves survivability though, it would be nice it they replaced the Spirit Weapon one for damage… (we’d be trucks though)

Exedore.6320:

- You always need some survivability, and Valor and Honor traits are great for that. You can make up the extra power with gear.

No, you don’t always need survivability, but it’s just something great to have.
And no, you can’t “make up” extra power with Gear.
If you don’t trait for damage, you won’t deal maximum damage, simple as that.

Gear for Power + Trait for Power = Damage build.
Gear for Power + Trait for Defense = Balanced build.

Personally, I enjoy seeing non-criticals of 800 (bunkers) ~1900 (glasses).

Danicco.3568:

Also, Zeal’s grandmaster of choice is Zealous Blade, and when people notice the 25 healing from their attacks, they think “this sucks!” and “it should be buffed to 100 or more!” (and don’t even think that we’d be unstoppable godlike killing machines with it).
Well, compared to AH, which is 75~ healing per BOON, a 25~ per HIT seems rather weak indeed.

Just as a note, against 5 enemies (supposedly the player AoE cap), a Symbol of Wrath (5 hits) + Whirling Wrath (9 hits, not counting projectiles) equals to 25 * 14 = 350 * 5 = 1750.

With 5 allies inside your Symbol area, you get 75 * 5 (number of boons) * 5 (allies) = 1875.

Did I miss anything? Last time I used a build with 30 Zeal (granted, it’s been something like half a year ago), the healing triggered once per attack, no matter how many targets you hit. As a consequence, AH was already almost as strong as zealous blade when you were alone, and in groups the difference was just ridiculous.

Zeal still is terrible past 10 points. Guardians just have so many other options which took a little longer to surface, that it doesn’t bug us as much as it used to. Zeal at first glance seems like the greatsword DPS tree and players that wanted to go that route were frustrated. But once people found that they could get just as much from other trees along with survivability, it wasn’t as big of a problem.

5% greatsword damage is not good. It’s not bad, but the +% weapon damage traits are ignored for practically every profession unless the other choices are worse. And if you’re comparing against other professions, such a limited trait is usually +10%.

Zealous Blade is not good. With the greatsword, Altruistic Healing can out-perform it. Greatsword #1 chain 3 applies one stack of might for every enemy you hit. That means AH is doing more healing than Zealous Blade on the auto-attack. Zealous Blade really only benefits from Whirling Wrath, but AH beats it hands-down for general use. Note: the target cap for all attacks in the #1 chain is 3. Other attacks cap at 5.

Your PvP logic makes little sense. Even with the larger symbols trait, you still can’t cover an entire cap point. You’ll never get off the entire damage of the symbol unless your opponent is being CC’ed from an outside source.

Spirit weapons need improvements. They’re far too restricted by poor AI and being kill-able to justify traiting for them. When they were invulnerable, spirit hammer saw some use in PvP, but the knockback completely defeated Zeal’s focus on close-in sustained damage. Now they just die to AoE damage.

Yes, you always want some form of survivability. Downed and dead people both detract from DPS.

I forgot to mention that Symbol of Wrath was on a much shorter cooldown when the Zeal traits were designed. That further hurts the trait line that was designed heavily around the greatsword and symbols.

Beat your head against the Zeal trait line as much as you want. But it currently has no potential beyond niche builds. The reason AH builds are so prevalent is because they work with everything.

CptAurellian.9537:

Last time I used a build with 30 Zeal (granted, it’s been something like half a year ago), the healing triggered once per attack, no matter how many targets you hit. As a consequence, AH was already almost as strong as zealous blade when you were alone, and in groups the difference was just ridiculous.

It procs of any attack while you’re using a Greatsword, even Symbol hits, making it great for AoE farming in general.
It’s not better than AH for survivability, or it would be really weird having the DpS line stronger for survivability than the survivability line… but it’s nowhere crappy or useless as most people say.

You avoided the question. Of course it procs off every attack, but in my experience only once, no matter how many enemies you hit with that attack. Unless they have changed that, your calculation I quoted is bogus.

Exedore.6320:

But once people found that they could get just as much from other trees along with survivability, it wasn’t as big of a problem.

This is a misconception, you can’t get as much from the other trees with better survivability, you’re still trading damage for defense.
The game is designed in a way that even with low amounts of Power, you’re still going to deal enough damage to solo, different from a “pure healer” role in other MMOs, where they can’t damage or solo anything in the game.

Zeal offers damage, same as the Radiance line (and in my opinion, Zeal is better for the support, survivability, versatility and equal/greater than Radiance in damage too).

Exedore.6320:

5% greatsword damage is not good.

It’s still a damage increase, and if you’re looking to maximize damage, is the best option in most cases.

Exedore.6320:

Zealous Blade is not good. With the greatsword, Altruistic Healing can out-perform it. Greatsword #1 chain 3 applies one stack of might for every enemy you hit. That means AH is doing more healing than Zealous Blade on the auto-attack. Zealous Blade really only benefits from Whirling Wrath, but AH beats it hands-down for general use. Note: the target cap for all attacks in the #1 chain is 3. Other attacks cap at 5.

Not true, it takes 3 attacks from the Greatsword to proc 1 Might to grant 75~ healing.
The same 3 attacks, against a single opponent, trigger Zealous Blade 3 times which also equals to 75 healing.
Multiple enemies, multiple procs as well (up to 3).

For survivability, AH is obviously better, since it’s easier to defend yourself and apply boons around you than keep attacking, and like I said, it’d be pretty weird if Zealous Blade were better for survivability than AH.
It’s still a great bonus healing when you’re AoEing.

Exedore.6320:

Your PvP logic makes little sense. Even with the larger symbols trait, you still can’t cover an entire cap point. You’ll never get off the entire damage of the symbol unless your opponent is being CC’ed from an outside source.

Symbol’s increased area doesn’t need to cover the entire cap point. It covers an area huge enough to make the enemy either run from the cap point, giving you the advantage for capping, or forcing him to maneuver closer to it between the areas your Symbol is not but still inside the cap point, which is probably still within your melee range.

Guardians are monsters when it comes to damage/defense, and our supposed weaknesses, mobility and ranged, are compensated by forcing opponents stay in our melee range because of the cap point mechanic.

Exedore.6320:

Spirit weapons need improvements.

Indeed, but they still have their uses (and they’re great for that).

Exedore.6320:

Yes, you always want some form of survivability. Downed and dead people both detract from DPS.

If it’s PvE, you can get little to no survivability and Berserker Gear and still perform greatly (as DpS).

Exedore.6320:

I forgot to mention that Symbol of Wrath was on a much shorter cooldown when the Zeal traits were designed. That further hurts the trait line that was designed heavily around the greatsword and symbols.

I remember the 10 second base cooldown, 8 traited.
And really, it was totally overpowered. With Zealous Blade and Writ of the Merciful, I had 5 seconds of awesome healing every 8 seconds plus awesome AoE damage and Retaliation.
I felt kinda annoyed when they nerfed it, but it was indeed overpowered. Being able to chain pull 5~10 mobs at once and finishing each fight with more than 90% health everytime didn’t exactly felt normal.

Exedore.6320:

Beat your head against the Zeal trait line as much as you want. But it currently has no potential beyond niche builds. The reason AH builds are so prevalent is because they work with everything.

The reason AH builds are prevalent is because it’s still a great build for survivability, and this is key in PvP, but for PvE it isn’t as required and there are better choices when it comes to killing stuff.

It is also prevalent like you say because people are used to coming to the forums, asking for a build, and never thinking back why they are even using that build.
Then they go preach how that build is awesome because they leveled 1~80 with it, farmed Orr, killed someone in WvW, and completed a dungeon with it.

The reason AH builds are prevalent is because it’s still a great build for survivability, and this is key in PvP, but for PvE it isn’t as required and there are better choices when it comes to killing stuff

….Then they go preach how that build is awesome because they leveled 1~80 with it, farmed Orr, killed someone in WvW, and completed a dungeon with it.

Soooo.. fotm 48, you’re the only guardian in a team of high dps players who are quite squishy and you need to play anchor… what are you running if it’s not AH?

CptAurellian.9537:

You avoided the question. Of course it procs off every attack, but in my experience only once, no matter how many enemies you hit with that attack. Unless they have changed that, your calculation I quoted is bogus.

I didn’t, although if you’re still doubtful, you can check the SSes.

Fascinating, I just tested it myself. I’m pretty sure that it was different last year, but anyway. So the trait is not as useless as I remembered it, but anything beyond Fiery Wrath still does not bring enough utility and/or damage to let go of the points in Honor.

swiftpaw.6397:

Soooo.. fotm 48, you’re the only guardian in a team of high dps players who are quite squishy and you need to play anchor… what are you running if it’s not AH?

I’m no expert with Fractals (I hate the farming), but I’m curious, why are you asking me which build is better for tanking besides the tanking tree? It doesn’t make much sense to me.

Anyway, this is what I have in mind, although his/her build isn’t exactly DpS, but I don’t see why it couldn’t work with a full DpS build either.

CptAurellian.9537:

Fascinating, I just tested it myself. I’m pretty sure that it was different last year, but anyway. So the trait is not as useless as I remembered it, but anything beyond Fiery Wrath still does not bring enough utility and/or damage to let go of the points in Honor.

Why do you think your only option is dropping points in Honor?

Also, 30/0/30/10/0 builds seems kinda fun too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1TKrCvJ9Lo&feature=youtu.be (check his videos, there are some more with a build like this)

Danicco.3568:

Why do you think your only option is dropping points in Honor?

Quite simple with a 10/30/0/30/0. Dropping Radiance below 25 makes no sense since a 30/10/0/30/0 is a net DPS loss even when you trait for the 5 % greatsword damage.

Danicco.3568:

swiftpaw.6397:

Soooo.. fotm 48, you’re the only guardian in a team of high dps players who are quite squishy and you need to play anchor… what are you running if it’s not AH?

I’m no expert with Fractals (I hate the farming), but I’m curious, why are you asking me which build is better for tanking besides the tanking tree? It doesn’t make much sense to me.

Anyway, this is what I have in mind, although his/her build isn’t exactly DpS, but I don’t see why it couldn’t work with a full DpS build either.

CptAurellian.9537:

Fascinating, I just tested it myself. I’m pretty sure that it was different last year, but anyway. So the trait is not as useless as I remembered it, but anything beyond Fiery Wrath still does not bring enough utility and/or damage to let go of the points in Honor.

Why do you think your only option is dropping points in Honor?

Also, 30/0/30/10/0 builds seems kinda fun too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1TKrCvJ9Lo&feature=youtu.be (check his videos, there are some more with a build like this)

Thing about AH is, it enables you to run full zerker and pump out deeps and still anchor, at high lvl fractals, which is why I ask you how it would go without it. I do not think that points in zeal would be worthwhile. You’d either have to be running tank gear with offensive traits, or offensive gear with tanky traits. Now that’s all well and good, but it seems to me one setup (AH+zerk) would work way better than zeal (+ tank gear) which is lackluster atm.

It’s the one trait line I hope Anet takes a look at in this new ’we’re looking at traits of every class’ patch’ thing that’s coming up. I can’t seriously give people a hard time for running AH, even in easy dungeons, simply because at this point in time, zeal just isn’t cutting it. Even if, as you say, you’re getting heals off the traits in that spec, you are still making it harder on yourself as they are nowhere near as good as AH. In all, my main issue with this trait line is that it does not offer enough of an offensive buff to warrant sacrificing the AH trait line.

Myself- I would like to pull away from AH for high lvl fotm to be more efficient, but atm I feel that zeal does not offer enough to make that sacrifice.

But that’s only if you use 1 handers (and pick Right Handed Strength). For Greatsword and Hammer, Zeal wins flat out.

Danicco.3568:

But that’s only if you use 1 handers (and pick Right Handed Strength). For Greatsword and Hammer, Zeal wins flat out.

Not really true, 10/25/x/x/x will net you more damage because in groups virtue of justice use means perma burning on bosses, which means a flat out 20% increase to your damage. Radiant power trumps GS power easy and between the 5% extra damage and percision you get over it for every weapon you use not just GS

Ah indeed, I was thinking about either Zeal or Radiance.
10/25/X/X/X is better for damage than 20/15/X/X/X (with 5%) if you compare points.

Bash.7291:

Danicco.3568:

But that’s only if you use 1 handers (and pick Right Handed Strength). For Greatsword and Hammer, Zeal wins flat out.

Not really true, 10/25/x/x/x will net you more damage because in groups virtue of justice use means perma burning on bosses, which means a flat out 20% increase to your damage. Radiant power trumps GS power easy and between the 5% extra damage and percision you get over it for every weapon you use not just GS

Justice does not even matter for that, Radiant Power already causes more damage than Zeal beyond Fiery Wrath.

Danicco.3568:

Exedore.6320:

Zealous Blade is not good. With the greatsword, Altruistic Healing can out-perform it. Greatsword #1 chain 3 applies one stack of might for every enemy you hit. That means AH is doing more healing than Zealous Blade on the auto-attack. Zealous Blade really only benefits from Whirling Wrath, but AH beats it hands-down for general use. Note: the target cap for all attacks in the #1 chain is 3. Other attacks cap at 5.

Not true, it takes 3 attacks from the Greatsword to proc 1 Might to grant 75~ healing.
The same 3 attacks, against a single opponent, trigger Zealous Blade 3 times which also equals to 75 healing.
Multiple enemies, multiple procs as well (up to 3).

Do the math again. You get might for each enemy hit with the third ability in the chain, so 3×75 at maximum. Zealous Blade does 3×25 maximum with each attack, and there are 3 attacks in the chain. It pretty much even in terms of the healing it does. Against 5 enemies, whirling wrath and Symbol of Wrath can heal you for quite a bit with Zealous Blade, but you’ll only see that in PvE.

Swiftpaw covered the PvE angle. High level fractals are the only difficult PvE right now. As you go up in levels, there are more and more mobs and agony resist is only effective at just barely preventing you from dying. In some places you don’t want to be in melee and are against bosses that do lots of area damage. AH scales with the number of allies, whereas Zealous Blade scales with enemies. It makes Zealous Blade decent on most trash, but awful on bosses, and you really want the additional healing on bosses. If you have to use a ranged weapon primarily, then you’ve lost all that sustain from Zealous Blade.

Exedore.6320:

Your PvP logic makes little sense. Even with the larger symbols trait, you still can’t cover an entire cap point. You’ll never get off the entire damage of the symbol unless your opponent is being CC’ed from an outside source.

Symbol’s increased area doesn’t need to cover the entire cap point. It covers an area huge enough to make the enemy either run from the cap point, giving you the advantage for capping, or forcing him to maneuver closer to it between the areas your Symbol is not but still inside the cap point, which is probably still within your melee range.

Guardians are monsters when it comes to damage/defense, and our supposed weaknesses, mobility and ranged, are compensated by forcing opponents stay in our melee range because of the cap point mechanic.

You don’t play tPvP much, do you?

You aren’t going to bunker a point well with a Zeal build, but let’s say you tried. You’re going to be up against ranged DPS that will stand off the point and whittle you down or use CC to knock you off just long enough to neutralize. Once neutral, they can leave the cap point during your symbol and return afterwards and you still won’t cap for a very long time.

Symbols are much better in an offensive role to force other bunkers off their points or take lots of damage, including mid fights. But if you’re full zeal, your only sustain mechanic requires you to hit your opponent often in melee. And in sPvP, everyone is going to avoid that as much as possible. I’d rather bring a necro or engi, since they can do the same things, but better.

I remember the 10 second base cooldown, 8 traited.
And really, it was totally overpowered. With Zealous Blade and Writ of the Merciful, I had 5 seconds of awesome healing every 8 seconds plus awesome AoE damage and Retaliation.

They nerfed it only because of the retaliation up-time, not because of the healing. They’ve nerfed retalation afterwards in other ways, so it would be nice if they lowered the cooldown a bit.

Also, isn’t it funny that the best two traits for a symbol build, larger symbols and symbols heal allies, are not in the Zeal line, which has a heavy focus on symbols?

Exedore.6320:

Do the math again.

Why? It’s correct and you said so yourself.
It’s effectiveness or usefulness in either PvP or PvE is something else.

Exedore.6320:

High level fractals are the only difficult PvE right now. As you go up in levels, there are more and more mobs and agony resist is only effective at just barely preventing you from dying. In some places you don’t want to be in melee and are against bosses that do lots of area damage. AH scales with the number of allies, whereas Zealous Blade scales with enemies.

If you have to use a ranged weapon primarily, then you’ve lost all that sustain from Zealous Blade.

If I’m going ranged or I’m facing a one-shot-me boss, I’m not going for Zealous Blade or Altruistic Healing, what makes you assume I would?

Exedore.6320:

You aren’t going to bunker a point well with a Zeal build, but let’s say you tried.

I’m not going only Zeal for PvP. And although I was talking about Symbols and how they are useful, since you implied they’re not as good in PvP with “- Zeal’s minor traits only take effect if your targets stand still.”

Exedore.6320:

Symbols are much better in an offensive role to force other bunkers off their points or take lots of damage, including mid fights.

And that’s a great example of how Symbols can be useful in PvP.
Zeal improving them isn’t a bad thing at all then.

Exedore.6320:

But if you’re full zeal, your only sustain mechanic requires you to hit your opponent often in melee.

You do know that when you choose to spend 30 points in Zeal, it doesn’t lock you out of other trait lines right?
Saying it’s the only sustain is presumptuous. Assuming it’s the best build ever is too.

Exedore.6320:

They nerfed it only because of the retaliation up-time, not because of the healing. They’ve nerfed retalation afterwards in other ways, so it would be nice if they lowered the cooldown a bit.

I remember the posts about it, but Guardians’ AoE damage was quite OP like that. I liked it though…

Exedore.6320:

Also, isn’t it funny that the best two traits for a symbol build, larger symbols and symbols heal allies, are not in the Zeal line, which has a heavy focus on symbols?

Best is relative, Honor has Symbol enhancing traits in terms of usefulness, where Zeal has for damage.
Back when the cooldown was 8 seconds traited, you could almost always assume an extra 5% damage from the vulnerability.

I also think there was a ninja nerf with Symbolic Power, because I’m pretty sure with my Power build (full Power gear + Power runes + Power stacks + etc) my GS Symbols hit roughly for 800~1k on Risens.

I tested it at first when I realized the damage increase was around 25%, and confirmed it in the wiki, but after some patches I went there again and noticed the update for 10%.

But really, a 8 second cooldown, 5 sec duration, 900ish damage that heals (130 + 25), causes vulnerability and grants boons was really awesome…

The best zeal trait comes with 10 pts in. There’s also that 5% GS dmg, but that only comes in play if you use that. But GS works best with Two handed mastery down there, and as you can see that often causes zeal to get neglected.

Nothing wrong with 20/0/30/20/0 though.