Guild Wars 2

In DH-trait-line-lacking-support-for-melee we’ve been discussing the Dragonhunter Specialization traits with regards to excluding melee playstyle. In this discussion I started looking at Pure of Sight a range gameplay only trait & this got me thinking;

Should a minor’s trait effect lock you into a specific playstyle which if not used provides no benefit to your gameplay?

This then brought me to looking at the Guardian’s other specialization lines & directly at Zeal. Now I believe this has been pointed out before but Zeal’s Master & Grandmaster minors traits are “Symbol Only Traits” but we can have weapons sets that have no symbols, 1H Sword, Scepter & all Off Hands (And only weapons provide symbols).

So if you equip 1H Sword & / or Scepter you’ll have no access to symbols when that weapon set is equipped. It wouldn’t be such a problem for me if these weapons didn’t have any sync with the Zeal Specialization but each do to differing degrees. And to top it off Zealous Scepter a scepter only trait is located in the Zeal line.

• So we can use Scepter & trait Zealous Scepter for added scepter gameplay which requires using the Zeal specicalization line but whenever we are using scepter we’ll get no benefit from Symbolic Exposure or Symbolic Power, unless you all ready have a symbol down before swapping into scepter.

Is this right?

For my idea with regards to Zeal’s minors & fixes please refer to the below links;
Dragonhunter? What about Zeal?
Two Options Which One?

If we’re going to keep the symbol traits as they are (All minors being symbol related), then it only stands that you put the majors in with them. To me, each line specializes into something and it just so happens that Zeal is the symbol line but is lacking any real support for them(bigger, lasting longer).

In contrast to DH the Zeal Minors are ‘self-sufficient’ because Zealous Speed procs a Symbol. It might not be too effective if it’s your only Symbol but it still prevents the Minors from being useless. ANet quite obviously still wants it to stay about Symbols no matter what and some of your suggestions would turn away from that.

If they changed anything, I’d rather see Scepter getting a Symbol. To be honest, I feel that Guardians should have at least 1 Symbol per weapon set just as Mesmers have 1 Phantasm skill per weapon set. But that probably is a totally different topic. Symbol traits aside, they should also consider switching places of Blinding Jepoardy and Zealous Scepter.

Personally, I do not mind having Writ of Persistence in Honor. Zeal should be fine if it keeps Symbolic Avenger. However, they mentioned they might change it.

Xaylin.1860:

In contrast to DH the Zeal Minors are ‘self-sufficient’ because Zealous Speed procs a Symbol. It might not be too effective if it’s your only Symbol but it still prevents the Minors from being useless. ANet quite obviously still wants it to stay about Symbols no matter what and some of your suggestions would turn away from that.

If they changed anything, I’d rather see Scepter getting a Symbol. To be honest, I feel that Guardians should have at least 1 Symbol per weapon set just as Mesmers have 1 Phantasm skill per weapon set. But that probably is a totally different topic. Symbol traits aside, they should also consider switching places of Blinding Jepoardy and Zealous Scepter.

Personally, I do not mind having Writ of Persistence in Honor. Zeal should be fine if it keeps Symbolic Avenger. However, they mentioned they might change it.

What did they mention changing?

At first I wasn’t going to like this thread because it sounded like the same needless complaining we’ve been plagued with, but it hit on something that involved the class as a whole, and not just the trait lines.

Zeal is the symbol damage line and honor has symbol support line. That makes sense. However, I’ve long been a proponent of every weapon having access to a symbol. Symbols feel like an integral part of the guardian, just like clones and phantasms are integral to mesmer. Every weapon set for mesmer gives a clone and a phantasm.

Scepter and sword should have symbols. Smite is already really close. I’d be willing to trade some damage to make it work with symbol traits. Symbols usually have a beneficial effect. Smite’s big effect, other than damage, is proccing VoJ quickly, so the hit count could stay the same (16 hits in ~4 seconds). If not, perhaps a burn proc each pulse, or something else.

Sword could have a symbol placed on Zealot’s Defense and have it renamed to Symbol of Deflection, and allow it to destroy/block projectiles as it currently does. Not all symbols have to last 4 seconds as evidenced by Symbol of Protection, so a 2s base would be fine. Considering all the nifty new skills Anet has shown off, I know they have the tech to make this happen (or something else).

(On the subject of Scepter and Sword, the Scepter auto attack still isn’t a projectile finisher, but still has all the “disadvantages” of projectiles. Likewise, Sword’s projectiles are problematic. IMO, sword AA should be 3 quick succession waves like staff 1. They keep the 3 final hits for VoJ procs, but lose the liability for reflection and obstruction. If Zealot’s Defense stays the same, the projectiles should at least be finishers. And if i could just for this in, Mace 3 needs to continue to block at range and have a toggle to end early.)

I agree that every weapon should have some sort of symbol but i’m not sure i’m with you on Honor being the supportive symbol line. There’s only one supportive symbol the game and even that’s not wise to stand in when you’re getting hammered with AoE’s. If anything, i’d like to see either WoP be broken off for a Zeal master so that those who want to focus offensively on symbols can do so.

Every symbol has some ally support. Mostly boons (prot, regen, swiftness, retal, vigor, etc.) or healing in the downed state’s case.

Honor’s symbol trait provides larger symbols. More area for damage, but also more area to help allies so that’s a wash. It also provides longer symbols. More damage to enemies, but also more time/opportunity to help allies so that’s also a wash. However, the third aspect is straight healing, which is only support.

Symbols aren’t going to save you from aoe bombs. I don’t think that’s the intention on the dev’s or player’s part. However, there are many cases in every game mode where you can place a symbol with an enemy and ally inside, and where there’s no enemy aoe. Most enemies won’t willingly stand inside a symbol, and so with larger and longer symbols, you’ve denied a larger area for longer, thereby providing your party with area denial support, and the straight support you get from the boons and healing. If the enemy places their own aoe on your symbol, then they’ve just made a nice play by making it dangerous for everyone. Their own aoe doesn’t remove the threat of yours. I know you know all this though. You’re much more involved in PvP than I am.

It’s also not so much that Honor is a supportive symbol line. Honor is just a supportive line alone, and that one trait allows your symbols to be much more supportive. Combine Zeal and Honor, and your symbols become very powerful tools.

Arken.3725:

What did they mention changing?

I think it was during the trait rework stream. They said it might be too powerful. They didn’t say wether they’re going to change it but they are apparently considering it.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Sword could have a symbol placed on Zealot’s Defense and have it renamed to Symbol of Deflection, and allow it to destroy/block projectiles as it currently does. Not all symbols have to last 4 seconds as evidenced by Symbol of Protection, so a 2s base would be fine. Considering all the nifty new skills Anet has shown off, I know they have the tech to make this happen (or something else).

Well… if we follow the theme of Symbols we got 5 boons left to distribute:

• Quickness
• Aegis
• Fury
• Might
• Resistance

If Zealous Scepter was scrapped, Might could go to Scepter just like the OP suggested. Personally I think all other Boons would work with Zealots Defense, although Fury would be the best fit for the associated line (Radiance). But a short 2s Symbol which applies Aegis would be pretty awesome, too.

Arken.3725:

I agree that every weapon should have some sort of symbol but i’m not sure i’m with you on Honor being the supportive symbol line. There’s only one supportive symbol the game and even that’s not wise to stand in when you’re getting hammered with AoE’s. If anything, i’d like to see either WoP be broken off for a Zeal master so that those who want to focus offensively on symbols can do so.

As Ghotistyx mentioned every Symbol has some sort of support. Combining Writ of Persistence and Writ of the Merciful was the right thing to do for the trait rework. And because – just like to mentioned – standing in Symbols isn’t that easy most of the time – I’d rather have the extra size on the defensive traitline. Without the extra duration or size the healing is just not worth it.

If you wanted something to use Symbols more frequently when running Zeal, what about if Zealous Speed also reduced Symbol cooldowns for x% per enemies hit on cast?

Which trait was too powerful? The only one I remember them mentioning was Soaring devastation

I thought they also said something about Symbolic Avenger. Maybe I just don’t remember it correctly.

Xaylin.1860:

I thought they also said something about Symbolic Avenger. Maybe I just don’t remember it correctly.

That would be a terrible idea. It’s already incredibly difficult to keep competent opponents within the symbols as is. I can see it being insane for PvE where your mobs never move but not against intelligent players.

Edit: Especially when you compare it against say the Warriors Berserker’s Power which is incredibly easy to upkeep 100% of the time regardless.

Xaylin.1860:

In contrast to DH the Zeal Minors are ‘self-sufficient’ because Zealous Speed procs a Symbol. It might not be too effective if it’s your only Symbol but it still prevents the Minors from being useless. ANet quite obviously still wants it to stay about Symbols no matter what and some of your suggestions would turn away from that.

If they changed anything, I’d rather see Scepter getting a Symbol. To be honest, I feel that Guardians should have at least 1 Symbol per weapon set just as Mesmers have 1 Phantasm skill per weapon set. But that probably is a totally different topic. Symbol traits aside, they should also consider switching places of Blinding Jepoardy and Zealous Scepter.

Personally, I do not mind having Writ of Persistence in Honor. Zeal should be fine if it keeps Symbolic Avenger. However, they mentioned they might change it.

This ^

Would love it if they put symbols on the 1h sword & scepter.

For the sword it could be symbol of wrath for all I care, that alone would be better then zealot’s defense.

For the scepter they could just change smite into a symbol.

Arken.3725:

Which trait was too powerful? The only one I remember them mentioning was Soaring devastation

They mentioned soaring devastation having too long an immobilize according to their thoughts.

Evidently they also didn’t think about the fact it’s on a 60 second cool down.

Hi all thanks for all the great discussion & feedback. Regarding my two ideas I lean towards adding symbols to 1H Sword, Scepter & any Main Hand & 2 Handers weapons added in the future.

Xaylin.1860:

In contrast to DH the Zeal Minors are ‘self-sufficient’ because Zealous Speed procs a Symbol. It might not be too effective if it’s your only Symbol but it still prevents the Minors from being useless…

Although true I find it very lacking. Shouldn’t the minor traits also be part of & play into the gameplay the major traits bring. For me Scepter being in Zeal causes most of my issues as scepter gameplay brings no symbols.

Ghotistyx.6942:

At first I wasn’t going to like this thread because it sounded like the same needless complaining we’ve been plagued with, but it hit on something that involved the class as a whole, and not just the trait lines.

Zeal is the symbol damage line and honor has symbol support line. That makes sense. However, I’ve long been a proponent of every weapon having access to a symbol. Symbols feel like an integral part of the guardian, just like clones and phantasms are integral to mesmer. Every weapon set for mesmer gives a clone and a phantasm.

I feel the same way as Ghotistyx with regards to Symbols & think the comparison to mesmer’s illusions was a great one. Symbols do feel like a integral part of the Guardian which are only produce through weapon skills (other then some traits). Because of this they feel a little different to other skill categories minus illusions.

Actual comparing Symbols to illusions works quite well (Thanks Ghotistyx). In illusions you have clones & phantasms & there are differing traits throughout the Mesmer’s specialization lines that play off these two elements. I see Zeal’s & Honor’s symbol traits doing the same. Zeals plays to the offensive component of symbols & Honors plays to the supportive component.

Arken.3725:

I agree that every weapon should have some sort of symbol but i’m not sure i’m with you on Honor being the supportive symbol line. There’s only one supportive symbol the game and even that’s not wise to stand in when you’re getting hammered with AoE’s….

For me all Symbols are both offensive & supportive at the same time. They all cause dmg & they all also apply boons to yourself & allies.

Arken.3725:

If anything, i’d like to see either WoP be broken off for a Zeal master so that those who want to focus offensively on symbols can do so.

I feel Arenanet has grouped the existing symbol traits within the correct specialization line & traits with regard to gameplay.

With regards to WoP I feel this better supports defensive symbol gameplay. When looking at offensive symbol gameplay most weapons you would use have the ability to help keep foes within you symbols.

Ghotistyx.6942:

It’s also not so much that Honor is a supportive symbol line. Honor is just a supportive line alone, and that one trait allows your symbols to be much more supportive. Combine Zeal and Honor, and your symbols become very powerful tools.

I believe many of us still have lingering concepts of spec lines when stats were still tied to them. As of yet I don’t think this has sunk in fully for all of us. I see no problem with taking Honor in a offensive symbol build;

• Vigorous Precision - Vigor on crit more dodging
• Selfless Daring - A little bit extra healing never hurts
• Purity of Body - Faster endurance regen even more dodging.
• Protector’s Impact - Another symbol generator
• Empowering Might - Might on crit
• Writ of Persistence - Symbol power up.

And this is independent of your stats.

Back on topic.

Xaylin.1860:

Well… if we follow the theme of Symbols we got 5 boons left to distribute:

• Quickness
• Aegis
• Fury
• Might
• Resistance

I would love to see symbols for ever boon eventually as well as symbols tied into every weapon set.

With the changes to honor coming up such as the removal of Elusive Power and the focus on more supportive traits, it feels like this would be a bad choice for those who want to go offensive. Before(now rather), you could take a few traits that would enhance your offensive capability in honor(such as 2h-mastery and Elusive power) but now I don’t see ANY offensive options. All 3 tiers are essentially supportive now(which is fine for a supportive line).

I still think there need to be symbol majors in Zeal to further specialize for those who wish to do so.

I’m of the opinion that if every weapon set had a symbol, Zeal wouldn’t need symbol majors. It feels like if you want to go symbol dps, Hammer/Mace+focus or torch is going to be your best bet. That works perfectly for a Zeal-Honor-X, giving you some additional party support along with your straightforward damage.

In Honor, Invigorating Bulwark adds some healing power (which usually isn’t very important), but also reduces Mace cooldowns heavily increases damage. Empowering Might for the major and of course our friendly symbol trait, and you still have another line to squeeze out as many damage modifiers as possible.

Zeal really just needs the rest of the weapons to play nice with it.

True Honor is a more supportive feeling specialization line but I still feel there is a offensive path you can select.

Major Traits
As were talking about offensive Symbol builds Writ of Persistence is a almost guaranteed Grandmaster choice. It provides larger symbols, extra pulses for more damage & boon uptime & healing per pulse adding for extra sustain.

Empowering Might, who doesn’t want the boon Might in a offensive build. Now the internal cooldown really holds back this trait. The large question is how many stacks of Might this trait should be able to grant to yourself & allies and maintain?

Now for the problem tier & I’ll admit in for a purely offensive build the options feel lacking here, but;

• Like Ghotistyx mentioned Invigorated Bulwark could work mace. If 1H Sword & / or Scepter had symbols added to them, this would open up Radiance as an option which with Right-Hand Strength & Radiant Power could reduce you need for precision as a stat.
• Protective Reviver adds an excellent reviving skill which can be very important in small group battles.
• As mentioned before Protector’s Impact adds another symbol generator. And if more vertical elements are added I can see this trait getting more changes to come into play.

I don’t think Zeal is the problem here. The problem is that the developers are shoehorning weapon traits into different specializations. Unfortunately the weapon skills do not always match to a certain specialization.

Another example, other than the scepter, is the new hammer trait Virtuous Mallet. It has been moved towards the Virtue specialization. The trait itself has absolutely nothing to do with virtues. It seems this has been done in order to balance our burst potential.

Of course this problem can be streamlined by adding a symbol to the scepter. At this point I don’t see any major overhauls happening to weapon skills though. The developers are primarily focusing on traits right now. But who knows it might happen in the future.

Bezagron.7352:

Although true I find it very lacking. Shouldn’t the minor traits also be part of & play into the gameplay the major traits bring. For me Scepter being in Zeal causes most of my issues as scepter gameplay brings no symbols.

That’s a rhetorical question, right?

Of course, it would be better if Scepter had a Symbol. But it doesn’t make it totally useless if it hadn’t. It’s also not like you need to have the trait to make Scepter work.

Arken.3725:

With the changes to honor coming up such as the removal of Elusive Power and the focus on more supportive traits, it feels like this would be a bad choice for those who want to go offensive. Before(now rather), you could take a few traits that would enhance your offensive capability in honor(such as 2h-mastery and Elusive power) but now I don’t see ANY offensive options. All 3 tiers are essentially supportive now(which is fine for a supportive line).

I still think there need to be symbol majors in Zeal to further specialize for those who wish to do so.

Personally, I wouldn’t want any new Major Symbol traits. Why? Because we already got to many and Symbols would be balanced around it. If they added anything offensively, it should be added to Symbolic Avenger or the existing Minors. Otherwise we might end up being forced to pick all traits to make Symbols interesting.

That being said, the Minors in Honor are fine for offensive builds (well… besides Purity of Body which I personally believe to be total crap…). So are 2 out of 3 options on the Master tier. The Adept tier… meh. But let’s be honest: They aren’t too appealing for supportive builds either – even when using Mace. I feel that all fall damage traits should have an in-combat component (see new Thief and Necro traits). The best solution here would be fusing Protective Reviver and Protectors Impact and add a ‘generic’ trait which isn’t bound to a weapon set.

Noah.4756:

I don’t think Zeal is the problem here. The problem is that the developers are shoehorning weapon traits into different specializations. Unfortunately the weapon skills do not always match to a certain specialization.

Another example, other than the scepter, is the new hammer trait Virtuous Mallet. It has been moved towards the Virtue specialization. The trait itself has absolutely nothing to do with virtues. It seems this has been done in order to balance our burst potential.

I think it is less about shoehorning any weapon or balancing damage but being forced to distribute weapon traits across traitlines. Having only 3 traits per tier the devs need to ensure that there are enough alternatives not locking you into specific weapons when picking a traitline.

Yes, Hammer doesn’t really feel right for Virtues. Neither do the other weapons, though. I think the devs just ran out of options and Hammer got the short end of the stick. But they might still rework it. They could make it more sensable and associated with Virtues. They might also go a step back and combine it with Mace or Staff or whatever.

However, the real issue I have when looking at Virtuous Mallet is the Virtues traitline itself. It is way to cramped with Virtue traits on the Grandmaster level and some traits on Master level feel way too needed for the Grandmaster traits. I think some traits could easily be combined or rearranged to open up space on the GM tier so they can implement something more versatile not related to Virtues. This might also help to establish the Hammer in the traitline – if it benefits from the new traits.

Interesting thoughts Xaylin and it’s true with regards to scepter & symbols as Chains of Light provides a great skill for keep foes within your symbols. Apply Smite & it’s an area no foe would want to end up in. But if I was specialising in scepters I would want to take Zealous Scepter which means I’m selecting Zeal & now I have 2 minor traits that have very indirect interaction with scepter if at all.

I also agree Virtous Mallet feels very out of place in the Virtue Specialization. An this brings up an interesting point. With the reveal of the Reaper there was talk about themed lines within the Specialization. I actual really liked this idea, so a question;

• Should theme lines also be applied to the Core Specialization?
• Should these themes lines be a core component in designing specializations?
• Is this something other players would like?

This will mean a further overhaul of the trait system looking at each specialization & creating 3 themes lines within then & matching traits to these lines which will be alot of work. But I could see this helping streamline future designs as it provides focus within the traits. Minor trait provide core specialization favour with each theme line providing differing gameplay elements of that specialization.

So instead of designing 9 major traits for XX Specialization you now have 3 traits for this one, 3 more for this one & 3 traits for the last theme line which all play into the overall specialization.

What are some theme line ideas players have for the existing Core Specializations?

We used to have too many symbol traits, now it’s just down to one Major. Having 2 for both Zeal and Honor would make sense depending on what type of Guardian you want to build. Maybe have the Zeal trait tick for cripple and last longer? Just a thought, not set in stone.

I hope they change Scepter #2 to a symbol (maybe symbol of might) and replace the sword #3 to a symbol (maybe symbol of fury) becouse they refuse to fix/change the awful Zealot Defense (it roots, the projectiles always miss and only hit a single target).

Like Mesmer (all weapons from #1 to #3 have a clone skill and #4~#5 have a Phantasm skill), Guardian should have a symbol on all wepons at least on #1~#3 (don’t need to have symbols on offhand). This reduces the effective/diversity of build options.

But I don’t think that Zeal is a problem, the Scepter trait in Zeal line is.