Guild Wars 2

So i havent played in a long time, just started playing again recently and wanted to change my build since the traits were changed a lot from back when i played and theres new stat combos available on items

I was looking at current meta to get a feel for where guardians stand in the game now and was surprised to see so many people saying that full zerker was the best gear to get, and that anything else just wastes time

The idea of turning the guardian into a full dps class seems dumb to me, its damage output would have to be lower then a warriors since guardian was never intended to be full dps right, so why would you try to force the guardian into being something its not

Dont get me wrong, im not bashing on people that use zerker on guardians, just trying to understand why full zerker is better then say a mix of knight/soldier with 1 or 2 zerker trinkets to accomplish something similar to zerker but with much more survivability

And is there any benefit to playing zerker guardian over zerker warrior, because zerker gear on a warrior just seems far more sensible and straight up better if all you want is damage

The reason is because pve content is doable with full dps specs on every class. And going for efficiency means you dont waste stats on stuff you dont need (toughness, vit, healing power). Guard provides defensive utility on top of really good dps which is why they are picked in dungeons.

A dungeon like arah, where lots of projectiles are involved, is made a lot easier when you have a class than can reflect or defend the group against them. This is why people arent running 5 warriors, they need the utility from other classes to make the run faster/smoother.

Also vit and toughness dont help your group. They only help urself at the cost of group dps (potentially putting the group in more danger because of extended kill times). Healing power arguebly does help groups. But it scales so poorly and the fact that there are no dedicated healers and the dps sacrificed is too great, makes it a very poor choice for pve. You do a lot more for the group by providing good dps along with class utility. Blocks, reflects, condi removal and boons dont require defensive stats to be used.

Your mistake is assuming that zerker guards deal less than zerker warriors. They don’t. In fact, they actually deal slightly more. The primary difference between warriors and guardians is that warriors are primarily offensive support (buffing attack power) while guardians are defensive support. However, with a warrior buffing a guardian and a guardian buffing a warrior, both deal pretty much the same damage and can take roughly the same number of hits. That’s why you go zerk guardian; the warriors pump you up and you beef them up and you all just go full DPS on mobs.

spoj.9672:

The reason is because pve content is doable with full dps specs on every class. And going for efficiency means you dont waste stats on stuff you dont need (toughness, vit, healing power). Guard provides defensive utility on top of really good dps which is why they are picked in dungeons.

Oh i see now, i didnt realize all classes were using zerker
Is this a new thing with a recent patch or is this the intended design by the devs because it seems like very poor game design to have 1 set be the best for everyone

spoj.9672:

Also vit and toughness dont help your group. They only help urself at the cost of group dps (potentially putting the group in more danger because of extended kill times). Healing power arguebly does help groups. But it scales so poorly and the fact that there are no dedicated healers and the dps sacrificed is too great, makes it a very poor choice for pve. You do a lot more for the group by providing good dps along with class utility. Blocks, reflects, condi removal and boons dont require defensive stats to be used.

I figured toughness/vit would let you act as a tank to prevent your party from taking damage, i currently have a lot of toughness and i am attacked by mobs most of the time
I also play wvw, not as much as pve though, i cant afford 2 sets of armor right now, i could just use what i have now for wvw and get zerker for pve, but id rather get something that can improve pve and wvw, which is why i was thinking of that knight/soldier with a bit of zerker combo i said in my other post

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Your mistake is assuming that zerker guards deal less than zerker warriors. They don’t. In fact, they actually deal slightly more.

Is the math on dps for zerker warriors and zerker guardians available some where, or are you basing their this on anecdotal evidence

spoj.9672:

A dungeon like arah, where lots of projectiles are involved, is made a lot easier when you have a class than can reflect or defend the group against them. This is why people arent running 5 warriors, they need the utility from other classes to make the run faster/smoother.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

The primary difference between warriors and guardians is that warriors are primarily offensive support (buffing attack power) while guardians are defensive support. However, with a warrior buffing a guardian and a guardian buffing a warrior, both deal pretty much the same damage and can take roughly the same number of hits. That’s why you go zerk guardian; the warriors pump you up and you beef them up and you all just go full DPS on mobs.

I know the differences between warrior and guardian in terms of skills, thats why i put “if all you want is damage” at the end there, which is why im thinking warrior is a better choice for zerker
If im going a full dps build i may as well have skills that add more dps rather then the utility stuff that guardian has
Ill give it a try with zerker rares to see if i like that kind of playstyle before i spend all my gold on zerker exotics, but i dont think zerker guardian will be my thing, i guess i could use empowering might and AH, that might be fun

Pat.8379:

, im not bashing on people that use zerker on guardians, just trying to understand why full zerker is better then say a mix of knight/soldier with 1 or 2 zerker trinkets to accomplish something similar to zerker but with much more survivability

because survivability is in positioning blocks, reflects, dodges and cleanses,
not in healing power or toughness or vitality.

and since you get them (positioning blocks, reflects, dodges and cleanses, ) for free and not from gear,
and since that healing power toughness and vitality will not save you but on the contrary, probably will kill you, because they scale worse than damage and the best defense is good offence, you can wear most of your gear zerker (more or less after you reached ~16K hp to survive an instagib).

hope i answered the question.

The warrior’s utility buffs don’t stack. Warriors are primarily good for banners and Empower Allies, all of which can be handled by a single warrior. Once you have that first warrior it’s better to diversify so you can cover other roles, it’s just that warriors are easy to run and get reasonably good results even if played poorly.

Guardians tend to fulfill a similar all-rounder role in terms of defensive support for a DPS-oriented group. Their support isn’t particularly extraordinary in any one field (mesmer has better reflects and stability, engies have better condition removal and blinding, etc.) but they can do a bit of everything. That way if you’re pugging you can just take a guardian and be assured that you’ll get decent coverage on a lot of things, including DPS, without having to worry about “we need to find an engineer or we’ll wipe on the next trash pull” or stuff like that. That also means that you are still expected to build full DPS, because you’re not taking the guardian for the support per se, you’re taking him because he can offer DPS plus a bunch of other support buffs that may be useful in the dungeon run.

Nice post OP, I was wondering the same and been learning a lot from the comments of other people in this thread. If the OP don’t mind can someone post a good current " full zerker" build? I want to see how is made and what it takes to have a guardian made correct with such setup. I am a healer / Boon Supporter and always been from the start. However this post, and the word " full zerker " have gotten my attention lately and very curious to know more about it.

@Chico
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/We-Got-Guardian-Builds
I think they’re missing a few hammer builds in there but you can use Dub’s build with hammers without any problem.

Also, your gameplay would hardly change (aside from weapons choices), you should provide lots group support as a zerk guardian anyways.

@Chico
I run 10/30/0/20/10 on my guard. I use sw/focus as my primary weapons but my second set is swapped regularly from fight to fight. I either use hammer or scepter for my off set weapon. I find that going 25 into honor is a waste as elusive power is counter intuitive to vigorous precision…the first trait in honor.

For PvE, a Zerk guard can deal good DPS and still bring utilities to the table like Reflection, such as for high level Fractals (of course, I don’t know many guards who full zerk in Fractals). With the way dungeons work, it’s far better to deal damage sooner than having sustainable defenses- you don’t need to stack survivability if the boss is dead.

For PvP and WvW a Zerk guard can perform pretty well solo/small groups. If you went Zerks with a Triple Meditation build and lets say 1h crit thrown in, you’ve got great burst damage, blinds, burns, vuln, two blinks, basic condi cleansing, and med heals. Focus nukes can get some pretty ridiculous numbers too. If you chain the combo right you can pretty much instagib any class.

BUT! Is any of this particularly better than a zerk Warrior?

No. Warriors are ahead of use in every category except some niche moments in fractals and dungeons. To quote a recent post:

Redscope.6215:

Bunker
Warrior > Guardian (Healling sig, perma-regen, high HP, 100% condi immune)
Damage
Warrior > Guardian (Hundred blades, eviscerate, killshot, perma-fury)
CC
Warrior > Guardian (3 hammer stuns, 2 mace stuns, 1 shield stun, cc utils)
Condi
Warrior > Guardian (bleed, cripple, blind, burn, torment, weakness, immo)
Healing/Support
Warrior > Guardian (perma-regen, banner buffs, shouts heal, AoE group rez)

But don’t worry guys, you can still burst Courage and give everyone ONE block on a 90 second cooldown! That counts for something right? … Wait, blind condi does the same thing? … Crap, I guess you’re SOL.

But, frankly, I enjoy the guardian’s skill variety much more.

ODB.6891:

@Chico
I find that going 25 into honor is a waste as elusive power is counter intuitive to vigorous precision…the first trait in honor.

Actually it works with it. The idea is that you can dodge as you like without worrying about your bar. Most fight aren’t dodge wait 10 seconds dodge again. This mean you can keep elusive power up nearly all the time while not impacting your defense. Remember it is a 10% damage bonus managing your stamina is worth the extra dps.

anking.6245:

For PvE, a Zerk guard can deal good DPS and still bring utilities to the table like Reflection, such as for high level Fractals (of course, I don’t know many guards who full zerk in Fractals).

BUT! Is any of this particularly better than a zerk Warrior?

No. Warriors are ahead of use in every category except some niche moments in fractals and dungeons. To quote a recent post:

Redscope.6215:

Bunker
Warrior > Guardian (Healling sig, perma-regen, high HP, 100% condi immune)
Damage
Warrior > Guardian (Hundred blades, eviscerate, killshot, perma-fury)
CC
Warrior > Guardian (3 hammer stuns, 2 mace stuns, 1 shield stun, cc utils)
Condi
Warrior > Guardian (bleed, cripple, blind, burn, torment, weakness, immo)
Healing/Support
Warrior > Guardian (perma-regen, banner buffs, shouts heal, AoE group rez)

But don’t worry guys, you can still burst Courage and give everyone ONE block on a 90 second cooldown! That counts for something right? … Wait, blind condi does the same thing? … Crap, I guess you’re SOL.

But, frankly, I enjoy the guardian’s skill variety much more.

That quote is the most stupid thing I’ve ever read.

I tried many builds and couldn’t find the right one until I tried 10/25/0/30/5 with full zerker – greatsword/scepter-focus. It provides greats dps and has Empowering Might which gives party members 1 stack of might for 5 seconds each time I crit plus Pure of Voice which converts 1 condition in to a boon when using a shout. I pug dungeons about 90% of the time and I don’t want rely on someone else to remove conditions so I take on that role for the party. Also having the 5 points in Virtues for Inspired Virtue is helpful as well. For me this is the right balance of dps and “support”.

With the “fix” to PoV, it’s not nearly as nice as it was for the xtra 10 points. Better off running something like the usual 15/15/0/20/20 assuming you use hammer. Then just run Absolute Resolution, Purging Flame and Renewed Focus.

As I stated in my post, I use a greatsword. I also see the other benefits by using shouts – damage reduction, regen, stability and retaliation. All of them are useful while running dungeons. In combination with my virtues, I’ve seen them save party members numerous times. However, I may consider placing the 10 points in Virtues and see how that works. I’ll need to adjust my overall build but I could go hammer for dungeons. The protection it provides is quite useful especially when stacking on some bosses. Also, the only reason I went in to Honor was for PoV so if I’m no longer taking that then I won’t place no more that 5 points in it unless the 20 points in Honor is for Writ of Persistence for the hammer build.

Thanks guys for all the great info. I will need to start farming for the armor.

TheGuy.3568:

ODB.6891:

@Chico
I find that going 25 into honor is a waste as elusive power is counter intuitive to vigorous precision…the first trait in honor.

Actually it works with it. The idea is that you can dodge as you like without worrying about your bar. Most fight aren’t dodge wait 10 seconds dodge again. This mean you can keep elusive power up nearly all the time while not impacting your defense. Remember it is a 10% damage bonus managing your stamina is worth the extra dps.

Nope. Dodging just for Elusive Power is a net DPS loss. That trait just starts shining when you need to dodge anyway, either to survive or to keep Unscathed Contender/scholar runes up.