Guild Wars 2

But PvE isn’t the only game type. You can do 90% of the PvE content with just Aegis and dodging correctly.

To clarify, Aegis and Blind are incredibly powerful tools in PvE where mobs attack every few seconds. In WvW or PvP, those tools are much less effective.

You can’t improve Zeal for PVP at the expense of making PVE a “bobbing bird” affair if that’s what you are implying. (Simpsons reference)

For me the bottom line is any improvements with Zeal resulting in easier access to increased damage will be met with calls for nerf, not excluding highly skilled Guardians because of it’s impact in PVE.

As I previously mentioned, you can keep approximately the same level of output while making the traits better. For example, I shouldn’t have to choose 2 mainly terrible traits just so I can get radiant power.

That being said, guardian PvE isn’t in high demand because of OMG big numbers. People want guardians because they do decent damage while being able to clear conditions, put up Aegis, and drop wall of reflection.

Ghotistyx.6942:

In some of the Dungeons and Dragons DM guides, they talk about player types. They mention that player has a portion of min/maxer in them (the power gamer min/max, the social butterfly min/max, the non-combatant min/max etc)

I think Anet is going in a very right direction with what they’re planning. I’d like to see less posts of Zerker for everything all the time in PvE.

Also, considering every trait line is probably getting anywhere from 1-5 changes, I think we’ll see a lot of new builds crop up to compete., which is a win for me

It’s irrelevant. So-called Min/Maxers will always use the best possible build at the present.

Even if they nerfed zerk gear into the ground and made a bunch of cookie cutter builds unplayable Min/Maxers will always find the next best thing and that next best thing will become the new cookie cutter by definition. That’s why nerfing to balance is a slippery slope and usually not a good idea.

The point is, some people make the best of what they are given, while others complain and want to tear them down just because they aren’t willing to put the time and effort into doing the same.

DeathPanel.8362:

Ghotistyx.6942:

In some of the Dungeons and Dragons DM guides, they talk about player types. They mention that player has a portion of min/maxer in them (the power gamer min/max, the social butterfly min/max, the non-combatant min/max etc)

I think Anet is going in a very right direction with what they’re planning. I’d like to see less posts of Zerker for everything all the time in PvE.

Also, considering every trait line is probably getting anywhere from 1-5 changes, I think we’ll see a lot of new builds crop up to compete., which is a win for me

It’s irrelevant. So-called Min/Maxers will always use the best possible build at the present.

Even if they nerfed zerk gear into the ground and made a bunch of cookie cutter builds unplayable Min/Maxers will always find the next best thing and that next best thing will become the new cookie cutter by definition. That’s why nerfing to balance is a slippery slope and usually not a good idea.

The point is, some people make the best of what they are given, while others complain and want to tear them down just because they aren’t willing to put the time and effort into doing the same.

Don’t confuse minmaxing with convenience. In fact, from a minmaxing perspective, 4 warriors/1 mesmer isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output. That said, when the reason you are building for DPS in the first place is to save time speeding through an easy dungeon (i.e. COF1, you’re not going to waste time quizzing every player on their gear and traits. For example, having a good sword ranger with the right build vastly speeds up a COF run’s time due to having better DPS and Frost Spirit, but are you going to count on a random pug ranger to not just sit in the back and spam shortbow with a bear pet? I’m not.

It is somewhat debatable what the ideal group composition is but I’d actually say it is something like 1 warrior, 1 guardian, 1 engineer, 1 ranger and 1 mesmer, with the mesmer and ranger optionally switchable for guardians depending on the content. A lot of people aren’t aware of this but guardians have the highest consistently achievable DPS in the game, even higher than warriors (20/30/0/20/0 with greatsword and scepter or sword). In fact, the only class capable of beating the guardian’s max achievable DPS is the ranger and they are reliant on the pet for a good portion of that number.

Zeal will definitely see some attention in the patch. The end of June patch is addressing under-used traits and trait lines, and Zeal definitely fits that description. If guardians become too good at damage, then expect to see some of the +10% damage minor traits (Raidant Power, Elusive Power) nerfed and possibly Fiery Wrath as well. I think that’s an okay tradeoff for making the Zeal and Radiance trait lines more open.

As a slight change of direction, I would expect to see a lot of Vigor-granting traits nerfed in the future or a nerf to the boon itself. Probably not this patch, but at some point. Near 100% Vigor uptime for minimal investment is a little too good.

Exedore.6320:

If guardians become too good at damage, then expect to see some of the +10% damage minor traits (Raidant Power, Elusive Power) nerfed and possibly Fiery Wrath as well. I think that’s an okay tradeoff for making the Zeal and Radiance trait lines more open.

Maybe I’m seeming too argumentative in this thread but my perspective on this would be that nerfing damage increases in non damage lines if Zeal was buffed up would suck tremendously. That fact that I don’t need to be pigeon-holed to a ‘damage’ traitline to actually GET good damage on my Guardian is exactly what appeals to me and what makes this class so versatile.

We have a pretty good thing right now. Let’s recognize that. Zeal changes are welcome but IMO, the lesser of two evils would be to not change anything as opposed to have more linear traitlines. I believe that there are alot of creative things that could happen than your straight ahead “get +% damage” traits and for me, if Zeal is to increase in appeal without directly increasing damage traits (and calling for ‘balance’ nerfs on other things), the flavour of the traits have to be co-operative. Just as an example of what i mean:

“If you block, your next hit will automatically be a critical”

Obtena.7952:

That fact that I don’t need to be pigeon-holed to a ‘damage’ traitline to actually GET good damage on my Guardian is exactly what appeals to me and what makes this class so versatile.

That’s also what makes it almost overpowered.

In an ideal world, all trait lines give damage and utility/survivability to varying to degrees. Then, to supplement heavier investment in more damage-oriented traits, you offset with defensive stats on gear. And vice-versa. Sometimes the defensive or offensive part is just too good and needs toned down a little.

Exedore.6320:

Obtena.7952:

That fact that I don’t need to be pigeon-holed to a ‘damage’ traitline to actually GET good damage on my Guardian is exactly what appeals to me and what makes this class so versatile.

That’s also what makes it almost overpowered.

In an ideal world, all trait lines give damage and utility/survivability to varying to degrees. Then, to supplement heavier investment in more damage-oriented traits, you offset with defensive stats on gear. And vice-versa. Sometimes the defensive or offensive part is just too good and needs toned down a little.

In general it is actually better to go all-out offense on gear and trait defensively where possible. As long as the trait investment doesn’t require heavy investment (i.e. Altruistic Healing) it’s usually not a bad deal. For example, it is better to go full Berserker guardian and take Writ of the Merciful instead of Empowering Might than to go knight guardian and take Empowering Might. You gain equivalent defense and lose less DPS.

My wish on Guardian:

a)Revised Trait:Reduce 20% Cooldown on Sword;+50Vitality when equipping sword
b)Sword (2) is a Leap Finisher.
c)My own Spirit Hammer auto-attack and teammate’s CC knockdown shall no longer “helps” enemy to escape from my Hammer (5)Ring of Warding.

Thank you arena in advance.

I’m with Obtena here, I think a damage increase in Zeal is completely unnecessary and potentially damaging to the class. The line needs help, but it needs utility help, not damage help.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

DeathPanel.8362:

Ghotistyx.6942:

In some of the Dungeons and Dragons DM guides, they talk about player types. They mention that player has a portion of min/maxer in them (the power gamer min/max, the social butterfly min/max, the non-combatant min/max etc)

I think Anet is going in a very right direction with what they’re planning. I’d like to see less posts of Zerker for everything all the time in PvE.

Also, considering every trait line is probably getting anywhere from 1-5 changes, I think we’ll see a lot of new builds crop up to compete., which is a win for me

It’s irrelevant. So-called Min/Maxers will always use the best possible build at the present.

Even if they nerfed zerk gear into the ground and made a bunch of cookie cutter builds unplayable Min/Maxers will always find the next best thing and that next best thing will become the new cookie cutter by definition. That’s why nerfing to balance is a slippery slope and usually not a good idea.

The point is, some people make the best of what they are given, while others complain and want to tear them down just because they aren’t willing to put the time and effort into doing the same.

Don’t confuse minmaxing with convenience. In fact, from a minmaxing perspective, 4 warriors/1 mesmer isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output.

I like how you made a ridiculous assertion and then changed the topic before supporting it.

So if 4 warriors/1 Mesmer “isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output” what is?

One could argue that the 1 Mesmer in the equation has gotten questionable after the quickness nerf but to argue that the setup is not even remotely a contender for dps is ridiculous.

No class in any setup out dps a zerk warrior, that’s a fact. If it wasn’t people wouldn’t be running zerk warrior setups for fast farm runs.

If you got some magical build that somehow only you know about that can outperform zerk warriors in dps then post it and we’ll take a look for ourselves, otherwise it’s just unsubstantiated talk.

DeathPanel.8362:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

DeathPanel.8362:

Ghotistyx.6942:

In some of the Dungeons and Dragons DM guides, they talk about player types. They mention that player has a portion of min/maxer in them (the power gamer min/max, the social butterfly min/max, the non-combatant min/max etc)

I think Anet is going in a very right direction with what they’re planning. I’d like to see less posts of Zerker for everything all the time in PvE.

Also, considering every trait line is probably getting anywhere from 1-5 changes, I think we’ll see a lot of new builds crop up to compete., which is a win for me

It’s irrelevant. So-called Min/Maxers will always use the best possible build at the present.

Even if they nerfed zerk gear into the ground and made a bunch of cookie cutter builds unplayable Min/Maxers will always find the next best thing and that next best thing will become the new cookie cutter by definition. That’s why nerfing to balance is a slippery slope and usually not a good idea.

The point is, some people make the best of what they are given, while others complain and want to tear them down just because they aren’t willing to put the time and effort into doing the same.

Don’t confuse minmaxing with convenience. In fact, from a minmaxing perspective, 4 warriors/1 mesmer isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output.

I like how you made a ridiculous assertion and then changed the topic before supporting it.

So if 4 warriors/1 Mesmer “isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output” what is?

One could argue that the 1 Mesmer in the equation has gotten questionable after the quickness nerf but to argue that the setup is not even remotely a contender for dps is ridiculous.

No class in any setup out dps a zerk warrior, that’s a fact. If it wasn’t people wouldn’t be running zerk warrior setups for fast farm runs.

If you got some magical build that somehow only you know about that can outperform zerk warriors in dps then post it and we’ll take a look for ourselves, otherwise it’s just unsubstantiated talk.

If you read anything I posted beyond the first line, you’d see how I already answered pretty much all of your questions, including how to run a DPS guardian build and how to build for optimal minmax DPS.

As for warriors, they’re not nearly as good as you seem to think they are. In fact, they’re actually right in the middle of the tier list in terms of overall DPS; they lose to rangers, guardians, engineers and thieves, and are roughly tied with elementalists and mesmers. The only class they actually outright beat in overall DPS is the necromancer. That is in a party environment with lots of boons and conditions flying around. Solo, or in a uncoordinated pug group, they do slightly better (being above guardians) but they’re still not unconditionally the best.

Of course, I also just explained that too.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Don’t confuse minmaxing with convenience. In fact, from a minmaxing perspective, 4 warriors/1 mesmer isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output.

This is what you initially said.
You have failed to justify it.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

If you read anything I posted beyond the first line, you’d see how I already answered pretty much all of your questions, including how to run a DPS guardian build and how to build for optimal minmax DPS.

I did read your uninformed block of words, and was not impressed or convinced.

You have failed to support your assertion that 4 warriors/1mesmer " isn’t even remotely a contender for best damage output."

To prove that you must give examples of many better team setups for dps since if it’s “not a contender” then by definition there must be many setups that is better in dps.

Just by blindly throwing out the “1 warrior, 1 guardian, 1 engineer, 1 ranger and 1 Mesmer” statement doesn’t make it true. You have to explain how exactly that setup results in higher dps.

I would love to see some traits giving specific weapons more healing power when equipped than the 5% more damage.

It would make things more interesting, and also gives us more room to invest in other “stats” than healing power.

(My personal Opinion)

Maybe it is condescending but I don’t think it’s far from the truth. I’ve seen fullzerk builds deal the damage AND tank like hell. At the same time, I’ve seen full zerk Guardians downed far too often on the same content, claiming the class is broken. I can ONLY attribute the difference to player capability.

The bottom line is that DPS builds have as much to do with the player as the gear and traits they have. Is that different for other classes? Maybe, maybe not, but it’s not really relevant here anyways since we aren’t talking about them.

Damage builds are sort of mid-tier at the moment for Guardians. While a lot of damage can be achieved, the slow and highly telegraphic displays of each skill hinder it. There aren’t many other professions who are crippled by this that can still pull Momentous damage.

I didn’t catch the part about telegraphic displays hindering damage. What is that and how it impacts damage?

I’m speaking from an spvp standpoint. It hinders damage by the obviousness of the skill being triggered.

guardians need revamp because right now they guard / buff and heall only others except their self

shimmerless.4560:

Watching DPS Guards shrug off damage from actual glass cannons because of ridiculous boon uptime, silly levels of Toughness and random Aegis procs has not endeared me to the supposed difficulty of playing it.

I guess you only get that appreciation from actually playing the class.

Arken.3725:

I’m speaking from an spvp standpoint. It hinders damage by the obviousness of the skill being triggered.

Oh I see what you mean .. it gives tells to the enemy, so they can react to avoid damage? OK, for certain attacks I can see that. Speed is definitely a factor for damage but it wasn’t clear to me we were speaking specifically about a certain weapon or activity in the game. I would think generally, Guardians are not suffering from a lack of damage.

Oh no, Guardians have the damage, just they’re the slowest profession at delivering said damage. And to Shimmer, dps Guardians “ridiculous” boon uptime is a joke, the most you’ll ever see is 5 seconds on a very long cool down. This also applies to the variation of boons. I tested a common Elementalist build and just kept switching attunements, using auras and I was able to keep 5 boons on me up permanently. It would have been 6 if I was fighting and receiving vigor.

So no, Guardians don’t have solid boon uptime at all.

Arken.3725:

Oh no, Guardians have the damage, just they’re the slowest profession at delivering said damage. And to Shimmer, dps Guardians “ridiculous” boon uptime is a joke, the most you’ll ever see is 5 seconds on a very long cool down. This also applies to the variation of boons. I tested a common Elementalist build and just kept switching attunements, using auras and I was able to keep 5 boons on me up permanently. It would have been 6 if I was fighting and receiving vigor.

So no, Guardians don’t have solid boon uptime at all.

You could always use the combination of runes that would add even higher up time of boons. I currently got 50%+ up time on my boons, and I never experience that I have to wait too long to refresh them.

You could do that, but your uptime still wouldn’t touch another professions. As a Guardian, you’re a Magic melee fighter that relies on boons. When your boons have little uptime, what’s the point?

I understand these notes are subject to change but, I honestly find the implementation of a trait that boosts condition damage seem absurd for this profession. I’d be willing to bet that most of those who play this profession would agree with me in saying that this profession is NOT a condi profession at all. The degree in which this profession applies it’s only damaging condition(burning) is minimal at best.

I really believe that this should be scrapped and just focused on giving Guardians more access to direct damage in different ways. The only way this profession could succeed as a condition profession would be the implementation of a higher variety of conditions. Even with burning, Guardians don’t apply it as well as some other professions.

as for now with 60 lvl guardian I have 6.25 sec of stability+retaliation+protection+regeneration with something like 10 second’s cooldown.but i didn’t invested all I plan in boon duration.
about condi guardian – only I remeber about trait that makes our spiritual weapons inflict burning each hit?
ah yes I forgot – none of You things about spirit weapon build as a viable build

anyway If it comes to me – guardian CAN have good condi build – it’s only thing about how good You can apply Your burning – and with some builds You can pretty well

I could try to admit that guardian can apply burning best from any other classes – if not the thing I don’t know how elementalist apply it

And? Even if you permanently apply burning (which the ele can do better, btw), 100 condition damage translates into mighty 25 DPS. Any direct damage option will just annihilate that ridiculous effect.

CptAurellian.9537:

And? Even if you permanently apply burning (which the ele can do better, btw), 100 condition damage translates into mighty 25 DPS. Any direct damage option will just annihilate that ridiculous effect.

That’s not really a problem … CD on a Guardian isn’t supposed to be comparable to direct damage as it’s a secondary damage effect where on other classes it IS direct damage. That makes any CD discussion you have related to Guardian fundamentally different than how you think about CD for other classes. The underlying question is if it’s reasonable to put stats to improving a secondary effect. It’s value is it’s consistency and freedom with what weapons you wish to use.

I have to agree with Obtena to a certain extent – burning for a guardian is bonus damage to our melee attacks and when traited for is a flat 10% direct damage bonus thanks to Fiery Wrath ( which is considerable )

That does not matter, since Fiery Wrath is only related to burning uptime, not condition damage.

@CptAurellian – +25 dps that ignore armor – and how many of your mighty direct dmg You would have from just a +100 to power? dmg that is limited by enemies armor?
and per second pls

100 Power would translate into roughly 4% more overall DPS, which in turn would be something like 150-250 DPS, depending on how much support I have at that moment. I’m sure people like Guanglai could come up with more precise numbers, but right now I’m too lazy to look up all the skill coefficients and calculate it precisely.

But even with that uncertainty, it’s pretty obvious that you failed spectacularly by challenging power with condition damage.

CptAurellian.9537:

That does not matter, since Fiery Wrath is only related to burning uptime, not condition damage.

I’m lost on this one… can you be more clear on what doesn’t matter?

CptAurellian.9537:

100 Power would translate into roughly 4% more overall DPS, which in turn would be something like 150-250 DPS, depending on how much support I have at that moment. I’m sure people like Guanglai could come up with more precise numbers, but right now I’m too lazy to look up all the skill coefficients and calculate it precisely.

But even with that uncertainty, it’s pretty obvious that you failed spectacularly by challenging power with condition damage.

and depending on targets armor.
I didn’t failed because I didn’t chalenged power with condition dmg clearly – I’m only trying to tell You that when using build that keep enemies on permanent build agains heavy armor targets that condition damage will inflict more to enemies than pure power build and who cares that i can additionally burn.
I was on the way to give you nice mathematic proof in that case but basing on g2wiki’s data about how damage is counted it gives me that with just autoatack on gs and 1216 power guardians deals 184588.8 damage per second against 3k armor guy
and also I’m trying to convince You to take a closer look on some things before call it as useless – because many many players was defeated by this “useless” thing (once I saw guy that had build that is for all players is broken after some nerf and on tournament he defeated 5 enemies (on “only-viable-builds”) by only themself with this build