Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone, I am new to the max dps guardian builds so i was looking up some, to see if there was a build that could maximize the damage output.

after some research i came across a build that everyone seems to use, this one :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8NoQyZUgIo1DA6g8nqCxDuAA-jwBBYfCyEEwUBBKzsIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqWKgIGDA-e

after messing a bit with the editor, i came up with this :
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAsdRlUgiCnFyKEfIFSWhC06BAdQ+TVh45ShDRRA-jwBBYfERjEEgUBBKzsIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqWKgIGDA-e

which seems to me better than the first one that everyone seems to use.
Now, i guess i could be wrong, but i can’t find the part where i have made a mistake.

let me present you with some stats so you can judge for yourselves and maybe enlighten me about the first’s build superiority.

First build: (with bold are stats that are better than the other build)
power: 2462 / attack: 3512
precision: 1961 / crit. chance: 54%
(skipping all non offensive/non helpful stats in dmg)
HP:11305
cond. dmg: 300 / cond. duration: 10%
boon duration: 25% *
crit. damage: 89% / virtue recharge rate: *25%

Second build: (with bold are stats that are better than the other build)
power: 2472 / attack: 3627
precision: 2039 / crit. chance: 57%
(skipping all non offensive/non helpful stats in dmg)
HP:10805
cond. dmg: 300 / cond. duration: 10%
boon duration: 10%
crit. damage: 109% / virtue recharge rate: 10%

As you can see with the second build you have 20% crit damage more,in which case is MUCH more.
lets see how much extra damage you can have access to:

20% keeping aegis up
10% keeping cond. on target
5% from force sigil
10% keeping hp more than 90%
250 power from bloodlust sigil.
10% dmg on foe inflicted with burning
(no might stacks ,if you want me to add them, just say.)
ONLY on first build 9% damage from keeping ALL boons up.
first build total: 64%+ 250 power from sigil
second build total: 55% + 250 power from sigil

now lets see an ideal situation:
banner of discipline+ banner of strength+ fury up, during the fight and 25 stacks might.(not including ranger, spirits and 150 precision)
both builds reach close to 100% critical chance, the first one is up to 97% the second one at 102(?)~103% capped at 99% if i remember correctly.(with sword)

power reaches 3667/3677 minor difference.

crit. damage is increased by 15% meaning that
frist build: 104%
second build:124%

also lets assume that you have every possible damage you can have.
64% on the first one and 55% one the second one.
+ 25 stacks of vulnerability
that means 89%/80% damage increase on first/second

ON TOTAL

power: 3667/3677
crit chance: ~100%
crit damage:104%/124%
extra dmg:89%/80%

if we add these , you end up with 11% more damage on the second build
and lets face it, when you hit 4000 on every hit, 440 is not trivial.(you are gonna hit more than 4000, but for the sake of comparing, bare with me)

so why do people keep using the first one and don’t invest more in crit damage?
is it wanting to feel more like a guardian?
did i overlook something during my “experiments”?
I would really appreciate some answers/opinions from other fellow guardians.

Thank you very much.

edit: mistake with bolds.

Yes, you are making a mistake. Vigorous Precision is a must. You need as many dodges as you can possibly secure for yourself in order to stay alive. Virtues is also a massive utility improvement for the party – Valor only helps yourself. With 20 Virtues you have the option of running Unscathed Contender and Master of Consecrations, the latter of which is absolutely invaluable due to how OP Wall of Reflection is in dungeons.

Your math seems fine, the latter build will do more damage. But it’s not just about damage. There’s a lot of utility that Guardians bring that can’t be easily replicated elsewhere.

Also – The accepted average boost from Power of the Virtuous is 5%. Might + Fury + Vigor + Prot + Regen. All typically have long durations.

Your second build is hardly viable. Of course it deals more damage in theory. But the only way a DPS guardian can stay up is by using dodges, blocks and blind chains to prevent the damage. That is why you need the 5 point minor “vigorous precision” and the reduced virtue rechare rate. Your build does not have any player controlled condition removal either – and only one condition every 10 seconds is viable in CoF but likely a death sentence in arah.

Louk Tsoup.2108:

ON TOTAL

power: 3667/3677
crit chance: ~100%
crit damage:104%/124%
extra dmg:89%/80%

if we add these , you end up with 11% more damage on the second build
and lets face it, when you hit 4000 on every hit, 440 is not trivial.(you are gonna hit more than 4000, but for the sake of comparing, bare with me)

So how do you arrive at those 11%? If the answer is crit damage, then think hard about the maths. Because with 9 boons, the meta deals more damage than your second build, and at the typical 5 boons, your build’s advantage is only something between 1-3%.

Yeah, you seem to be under the impression the 1% crit dmg = 1% dmg, and it does not. So by dropping the virtues tree for crit dmg tree you not only lose that static dmg boost, (which is prob just as good as ur extra 20% crit dmg) but you lose all the extra utility of the virtue line, which is the main reason people want guards.

Max dps would most likely be 20/25/0/0/25 with gs + sword/focus rotations. I use this for everything other than fractals. People don’t put points in valor since they put points in the other trait lines to get damage multipliers which add more dps and the valor traits are selfish support and underwhelming for pve so it isn’t worth it for just getting the crit damage. You can see fully buffed out with exotic gear here http://youtu.be/U67QNskKYHs

Also, from a practical standpoint you have to factor in utility. If achieving max deeps only comes at the expense of Master of Consecrations, it isn’t desirable. If you say you don’t need Guardian consecrations for ______ dungeon, then the question is why not bring a thief or ele in that slot instead for real max deeps?

Exactly. A Guardians utilities are kind of like a Rangers. If you do not spec for them, they are not worth taking. Why even put it on your bar if you do not have a 20% cooldown reduction/duration? You would have to be some kind of min/maxer to try to increase damage with an 100% crit rate and including crit damage as a basic damage multiplier from Valor line. Do not be selfish for trying to make a better damage build. Nothing to see here.

foofad.5162:

Yes, you are making a mistake. Vigorous Precision is a must. You need as many dodges as you can possibly secure for yourself in order to stay alive. Virtues is also a massive utility improvement for the party – Valor only helps yourself. With 20 Virtues you have the option of running Unscathed Contender and Master of Consecrations, the latter of which is absolutely invaluable due to how OP Wall of Reflection is in dungeons.

Your math seems fine, the latter build will do more damage. But it’s not just about damage. There’s a lot of utility that Guardians bring that can’t be easily replicated elsewhere.

I see its mostly about survivability and bringing consecrations with you, as they are helpful for the group. I figured it would be something like that, but still wanted to see if there was more in this build.
It pretty much seems really hard to stay alive with the low health pool that guards have, removing dodges and consecrations may be bad for you, as these are expected from a guardian.

Columbo.5924:

Your second build is hardly viable. Of course it deals more damage in theory. But the only way a DPS guardian can stay up is by using dodges, blocks and blind chains to prevent the damage. That is why you need the 5 point minor “vigorous precision” and the reduced virtue rechare rate. Your build does not have any player controlled condition removal either – and only one condition every 10 seconds is viable in CoF but likely a death sentence in arah.

As for the conditions, you could remove purity and replace with meditation mastery, and use meditations to remove conditions, but then again that is at the cost of consecrations, improving your group capabilities, would not get any better with meditations. I see.

CptAurellian.9537:

Louk Tsoup.2108:

ON TOTAL

power: 3667/3677
crit chance: ~100%
crit damage:104%/124%
extra dmg:89%/80%

if we add these , you end up with 11% more damage on the second build
and lets face it, when you hit 4000 on every hit, 440 is not trivial.(you are gonna hit more than 4000, but for the sake of comparing, bare with me)

So how do you arrive at those 11%? If the answer is crit damage, then think hard about the maths. Because with 9 boons, the meta deals more damage than your second build, and at the typical 5 boons, your build’s advantage is only something between 1-3%.

well if you add them you will see that the total damage is 11% more, also crit damage in that build, is pretty much damage because your crit chance is at 100%.
I am pretty certain that the second build deals more damage, because 9 boons up constantly during the fight, still means 11% more damage for the second build, if you have 5 boons up the damage difference is increased by 4% meaning 15% total more damage at the second build.I don’t see how 1~3% was your result.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Also, from a practical standpoint you have to factor in utility. If achieving max deeps only comes at the expense of Master of Consecrations, it isn’t desirable. If you say you don’t need Guardian consecrations for ______ dungeon, then the question is why not bring a thief or ele in that slot instead for real max deeps?

This build was an attempt at maxing a guards dps, discarding all group capabilities, just being pure dps.
I never said that we don’t need guard for consecrations, i was just thinking about max dps possibilities.

Maizael.3075:

Exactly. A Guardians utilities are kind of like a Rangers. If you do not spec for them, they are not worth taking. Why even put it on your bar if you do not have a 20% cooldown reduction/duration? You would have to be some kind of min/maxer to try to increase damage with an 100% crit rate and including crit damage as a basic damage multiplier from Valor line. Do not be selfish for trying to make a better damage build. Nothing to see here.

20% cd/reduction? are you talking about the skills that are equipped at the bar? if yes, then thats just something that i forgot to change, also non important in stats. Don’t mind it.
crit damage with 100% crit chance seems like base damage to me, if it is not, please correct me.
selfish? i don’t quite get what you mean there.., explain?(perhaps you mean not taking consecrations?well, yeah, again this was an attempt at maxing the dps of guard, not making him a balanced damage/defense factor for the group.)

Thank you all for the answers.

obal.3218:

Max dps would most likely be 20/25/0/0/25 with gs + sword/focus rotations. I use this for everything other than fractals. People don’t put points in valor since they put points in the other trait lines to get damage multipliers which add more dps and the valor traits are selfish support and underwhelming for pve so it isn’t worth it for just getting the crit damage. You can see fully buffed out with exotic gear here http://youtu.be/U67QNskKYHs

So we are pretty much talking about being a guard? while providing great damage, also providing the support that the guard is created for. I see, it seems pretty reasonable to sacrifice crit damage and making up for it with other multipliers, i’ll give it a shot in actuall combat and see how it goes.
Thank you too mate.

Also i see that 25 at virtues is a must, to get the boost from boons, but how will those boons be kept up for enough time to provide the damage boost?

20% cd/reduction? are you talking about the skills that are equipped at the bar? if yes, then thats just something that i forgot to change, also non important in stats. Don’t mind it.
crit damage with 100% crit chance seems like base damage to me, if it is not, please correct me.
selfish? i don’t quite get what you mean there.., explain?(perhaps you mean not taking consecrations?well, yeah, again this was an attempt at maxing the dps of guard, not making him a balanced damage/defense factor for the group.)

Thank you all for the answers.

Sorry to be so sarcastic. It is very humorous to me to watch these same people belittle everyone who asked about a support Guardian and yell at them if they are not going damage they are slowing everyone down. Then you find someone who potentially finds more damage by hitting the 100% crit cap and goes into the “hated” Valor line and they -all- start talking about support.

So the rule of thumb is: Do not talk about Valor line. It is selfish. Do not talk about max MAX damage because it is selfish. Play a different class if you do not pick the mold.

Or do whatever the hell you want.

I mentioned Rangers because some of their utilities majorly suck without trait support. While the Guardian, on the other had, has the amazing option to mix up his utilities and use what each fight needs for the group or himself. Not every fight hinges on condition removal. Not every fight benefits from Wall of Reflection. If anyone is only sticking to the utilities they have “optimized” for, then wow.

Maizael.3075:

20% cd/reduction? are you talking about the skills that are equipped at the bar? if yes, then thats just something that i forgot to change, also non important in stats. Don’t mind it.
crit damage with 100% crit chance seems like base damage to me, if it is not, please correct me.
selfish? i don’t quite get what you mean there.., explain?(perhaps you mean not taking consecrations?well, yeah, again this was an attempt at maxing the dps of guard, not making him a balanced damage/defense factor for the group.)

Thank you all for the answers.

Sorry to be so sarcastic. It is very humorous to me to watch these same people belittle everyone who asked about a support Guardian and yell at them if they are not going damage they are slowing everyone down. Then you find someone who potentially finds more damage by hitting the 100% crit cap and goes into the “hated” Valor line and they -all- start talking about support.

So the rule of thumb is: Do not talk about Valor line. It is selfish. Do not talk about max MAX damage because it is selfish. Play a different class if you do not pick the mold.

Or do whatever the hell you want.

I mentioned Rangers because some of their utilities majorly suck without trait support. While the Guardian, on the other had, has the amazing option to mix up his utilities and use what each fight needs for the group or himself. Not every fight hinges on condition removal. Not every fight benefits from Wall of Reflection. If anyone is only sticking to the utilities they have “optimized” for, then wow.

I see, well that’s what discussion is for, i made this thread to confirm my suspicions about a mistake i might have made/overlooked, so getting some answers/feedback is a good thing. Also yes, i think too that builds are situational, and that its best to spec correctly for every different aspect of the game, even if minor changes.
Thanks.

Maizael.3075:

20% cd/reduction? are you talking about the skills that are equipped at the bar? if yes, then thats just something that i forgot to change, also non important in stats. Don’t mind it.
crit damage with 100% crit chance seems like base damage to me, if it is not, please correct me.
selfish? i don’t quite get what you mean there.., explain?(perhaps you mean not taking consecrations?well, yeah, again this was an attempt at maxing the dps of guard, not making him a balanced damage/defense factor for the group.)

Thank you all for the answers.

Sorry to be so sarcastic. It is very humorous to me to watch these same people belittle everyone who asked about a support Guardian and yell at them if they are not going damage they are slowing everyone down. Then you find someone who potentially finds more damage by hitting the 100% crit cap and goes into the “hated” Valor line and they -all- start talking about support.

So the rule of thumb is: Do not talk about Valor line. It is selfish. Do not talk about max MAX damage because it is selfish. Play a different class if you do not pick the mold.

Woah, now hold on a minute.

I’ve always been a filthy play-how-you-want casual, but in defense of the deeps guys the discussion has never been about being down on support traits and utilities. The primary issue that they’ve had with builds in the past is poor gear choices with poor traits to back it up, having a lack of damage modifiers and so on. Bringing support does not mean bringing a 1700 healing power cleric guardian: Bringing support means bringing consecrations, which everyone has access too pretty easily, and which the meta damage builds have brought for a long time now.

It has nothing to do with breaking the mold. I’m sure if someone found a better build than the meta that had both optimized damage and retained the critical support skills, it would be accepted, even if it was radically different. The practical realities of high level fractals are a pain, though. Gotta have those consecrations.

Louk Tsoup.2108:

CptAurellian.9537:

Louk Tsoup.2108:

ON TOTAL

power: 3667/3677
crit chance: ~100%
crit damage:104%/124%
extra dmg:89%/80%

if we add these , you end up with 11% more damage on the second build
and lets face it, when you hit 4000 on every hit, 440 is not trivial.(you are gonna hit more than 4000, but for the sake of comparing, bare with me)

So how do you arrive at those 11%? If the answer is crit damage, then think hard about the maths. Because with 9 boons, the meta deals more damage than your second build, and at the typical 5 boons, your build’s advantage is only something between 1-3%.

well if you add them you will see that the total damage is 11% more, also crit damage in that build, is pretty much damage because your crit chance is at 100%.
I am pretty certain that the second build deals more damage, because 9 boons up constantly during the fight, still means 11% more damage for the second build, if you have 5 boons up the damage difference is increased by 4% meaning 15% total more damage at the second build.I don’t see how 1~3% was your result.

Yeah, it’s pretty obvious why you don’t see why that was my result. To give you a hint: 1% more crit damage is – by far – not equal to 1% more damage.

Maizael.3075:

So the rule of thumb is: Do not talk about Valor line. It is selfish. Do not talk about max MAX damage because it is selfish. Play a different class if you do not pick the mold.

Or do whatever the hell you want.

To be fair most players will literally faceplant with the build he proposed then will end up going back to something more reasonable on their own. No need to even try to convince anyone, real world experience will slap them back into reality on its own. He built a guardian that’s nothing like a guardian, but suffers from the drawback of a guardian (low hp etc). Good luck with that.

Btw if you’re willing to go as far as to trait into virtue without even picking up master of consecrations, why did you not pick bane signet too in your utilities ? if you’re not going to play a guard you might as well crank everything to 11.

OP : The way I use to compare theoretical DPS numbers is to firstly take the power and divide by 916 which is your base power.

Eg : you have 1832 power? Divide by 916 and get 2. You are doing 2 * base damage.

Next up, crit damage.
50% crit chance, 180% crit dmg?
That.s a 1.4 modifier.

Next up, damage mods (multiplicative).
Eg zeal II 10%, radiance sword 10%, radiance 25 10%, virtue 25 5%
= 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.05 = 1.39755.

Now string them together:
2 * 1.4 * 1.39755 = 3.91314.
A player with 1832 power, 50% crit chance, 180% crit damage and 10%,10%,10%,5% damage modifiers will do 3.9 times as much damage as a naked character.

You can go one further and attempt to estimate each weapon’s base dps. Eg : hammer auto attack is roughly 420 without WoP, 520 with. 1h sword is roughly 416. 2h sword is roughly 460 by itself but becomes more difficult to think about when you consider swapping to it for burst cooldowns only.

As mentioned above, I believe 20/25/0/0/25 (2h/1h), 10/30/0/5/25 (mainly 1h) and even 15/25/0/20/10 (hammer) to be top dps builds which still retain useful support.
You could probably pump dps to the max by going something like 20/30/20/0/0 but you’d lose an awful lot of support and probably not gain all that much dps.

CptAurellian.9537:

Louk Tsoup.2108:

CptAurellian.9537:

Louk Tsoup.2108:

ON TOTAL

power: 3667/3677
crit chance: ~100%
crit damage:104%/124%
extra dmg:89%/80%

if we add these , you end up with 11% more damage on the second build
and lets face it, when you hit 4000 on every hit, 440 is not trivial.(you are gonna hit more than 4000, but for the sake of comparing, bare with me)

So how do you arrive at those 11%? If the answer is crit damage, then think hard about the maths. Because with 9 boons, the meta deals more damage than your second build, and at the typical 5 boons, your build’s advantage is only something between 1-3%.

well if you add them you will see that the total damage is 11% more, also crit damage in that build, is pretty much damage because your crit chance is at 100%.
I am pretty certain that the second build deals more damage, because 9 boons up constantly during the fight, still means 11% more damage for the second build, if you have 5 boons up the damage difference is increased by 4% meaning 15% total more damage at the second build.I don’t see how 1~3% was your result.

Yeah, it’s pretty obvious why you don’t see why that was my result. To give you a hint: 1% more crit damage is – by far – not equal to 1% more damage.

again can’t figure it out, it would be really helpful if you provide me with the means that you came to this result.
and again: if 100% crit chance, meaning you only deal critical, how does crit dmg differ from dmg? I’m just asking in a friendly manner, constructive criticism helps becoming better.

Nikaido.3457:

Maizael.3075:

So the rule of thumb is: Do not talk about Valor line. It is selfish. Do not talk about max MAX damage because it is selfish. Play a different class if you do not pick the mold.

Or do whatever the hell you want.

To be fair most players will literally faceplant with the build he proposed then will end up going back to something more reasonable on their own. No need to even try to convince anyone, real world experience will slap them back into reality on its own. He built a guardian that’s nothing like a guardian, but suffers from the drawback of a guardian (low hp etc). Good luck with that.

Btw if you’re willing to go as far as to trait into virtue without even picking up master of consecrations, why did you not pick bane signet too in your utilities ? if you’re not going to play a guard you might as well crank everything to 11.

well, guess why i made this thread, asking for advice, from perhaps more experienced/better players, to get some good feedback and adjust my build to the best possible build of that kind, After reading what i already wrote, a couple of times, i still can’t find the spot where im trying to convince everyone that my build is the best nor did i suggest that others should try it. I was fully aware that there are mistakes and seeked help from the community of guards. It certainly is not a group build and as fellow guards said, its selfish, but I wanted to see how this lacks and improve it.

Im not, by any means, pretending to be some kind of pro that came up with the best dps build for guards, just another player looking how to improve himself.

thank you for the responses.
side note: English not first language, overlook any mistakes:)

fadeaway.2807:

OP : The way I use to compare theoretical DPS numbers is to firstly take the power and divide by 916 which is your base power.

Eg : you have 1832 power? Divide by 916 and get 2. You are doing 2 * base damage.

Next up, crit damage.
50% crit chance, 180% crit dmg?
That.s a 1.4 modifier.

Next up, damage mods (multiplicative).
Eg zeal II 10%, radiance sword 10%, radiance 25 10%, virtue 25 5%
= 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.05 = 1.39755.

Now string them together:
2 * 1.4 * 1.39755 = 3.91314.
A player with 1832 power, 50% crit chance, 180% crit damage and 10%,10%,10%,5% damage modifiers will do 3.9 times as much damage as a naked character.

these numbers look pretty useful, is it something you came up with, or are these official, if they are the later, how can i have access to some of those formulas for future use, it will help a lot with calculations?
Thank you.

Louk Tsoup.2108:

again can’t figure it out, it would be really helpful if you provide me with the means that you came to this result.
and again: if 100% crit chance, meaning you only deal critical, how does crit dmg differ from dmg? I’m just asking in a friendly manner, constructive criticism helps becoming better.

It’s pretty simple: Damage modificators like PotV or whatever work multiplicatively. That means if you get a 5% damage boost, you’ll do 1.05 times the damage as before. Crit damage, however, is first summed up, naturally.

So let’s take the meta build, which has about 80% crit damage from gear/traits iirc, plus 10% from food and 15% from the banner. This means that a crit will deal 255% the damage of a normal hit. Now if you add 1% crit damage, you’ll sit at 256%. If we lazily assume 100% crit chance, that’s a damage boost of just 0.4%. So in the end, your wonderful 20% crit damage are worth only 8% total damage – under the precondition that you always crit. Otherwise, it’s even less.

I guess you could say it’s official, because everyone has 916 power when naked/untrained. When you double power to 1832 you simply do double damage.

The crit stuff is simple. If you have 10 ‰ chance to crit for double damage.. Well that’s an average of 10‰ more damage.

There’s not a whole lot more to it than grabbing your power and running it through crit modifiers and overall damage multipliers.

What Fadeaway is saying works because of how damage is calculated. The full formula for damage is [Power * Weapon Damage * Skill Coefficient]/Armor. Since Power is a straight multiplier, any % increase in it results in an equal % increase in damage.

Example:

[916 power * 1000 weapon damage * 1]/2600=
916000/2600=
352.3

[1832 power * 1000 weapon damage * 1]/2600=
1832000
704.7

My theory of how to get good dps…

1. Get a lot of Power
2. Crank up crit chance to close to 100%
3. get some bad kitten base damage modifiers.
4. Pile on crit damage.

Should be ok then.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

My theory of how to get good dps…

2. Crank up crit chance to close to 100%

Should be ok then.

Just to add a note to people who may be unsure. You should aim to get 100% crit chance with warrior Banner of Dis, and fury. If you are close to 100 after that, then you are good. No one is really close to 100 without the buffs or perception stacks. So remember to factor in those buffs.(which you should have).

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

My theory of how to get good dps…

1. Get a lot of Power
2. Crank up crit chance to close to 100%
3. get some bad kitten base damage modifiers.
4. Pile on crit damage.

Should be ok then.

No mighty condition damage? :’(

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

My theory of how to get good dps…

1. Get a lot of Power
2. Crank up crit chance to close to 100%
3. get some bad kitten base damage modifiers.
4. Pile on crit damage.

Should be ok then.

So, in other words, maximize all possible damage factors.

YA THINK?

The only time i use the Valor traits are when i’m doing large events because my PC is not good enough to support this ’’fiesta’’ inducing fps drops. Yet that doesn’t mean it’s not useful, if you wanna run with meditations, you need this line, otherwise i run full berserker because the PvE is EZ, all bosses are just sand bags with millions of HP.