good counter to burning guard?

good counter to burning guard?

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Posted by: DrDivine.5378

DrDivine.5378

I don’t main guard, and while I can kill them at times, there are a few that hit really hard. What would you say is the best method to deal with burning guards if you’re a mesmer/warrior?

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Posted by: Falcon.8713

Falcon.8713

Let the necro handle with is. Joke ofc. Mesmer should be able to kite around by preventing to burned at have right timing on burst.
I have no clue on warrior except for berserker stance rampage mode.

My necromancer got upgraded to a scythe-wielding maniac.. I like it.

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Posted by: creepmatic.9435

creepmatic.9435

Forcing break stuns helps in beating a medi guard (either power specc or burn/hybrid), as it’s stab is very limited.

I had some issues with Mace/Shield – GS warriors. Add Healing Signet active + Berzerker Stance and you have some decent time of Burn + Blind Immunity. Picking also Shield trait which reflects projectile’s it’s very helpful as you can reflect his Sword auto, GS WW torch throw or Scepter auto.

So yeah, force some break stuns (Ji and CoP) then land Mace burst and switch to GS 100b and it’s GG.

For mesmers, don’t get baited into Purging Flames, avoid torch trow. It’s usually a good idea to start with torch stealth so he can’t target you and Ji in for the burst. Then Blink behind him and do your GS rotto, strip stab and try to Mirror Blade into Shelter. That hurts. Also it’s a good idea to specc into Inspiration if you want a safer play.

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Posted by: Ragnar the Rock.3174

Ragnar the Rock.3174

Best counter to any condi as a warrior is using X/ traited warhorn or a shout build with soldier runes.

As a mesmer, you should be able to kite if you play well, if not run inspiration with the mirror heal. (that will also make ranged damage against you utter crap.)

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Posted by: ThePaladin.2140

ThePaladin.2140

Hello! I’m a burn guard. Dire, pure burning. My best advice after running this build for a bit now is two fold:

1. Kill us fast. REALLY FAST. Cleansing the burn will only delay death. We have cleansing of our own so if you’re a condi build as well, make sure you stack fast and get the kill.

2. Don’t allow us to stack more than 3 burning. Kite and kite all day. I’ve had my kitten handed to me by mesmers who know how to stealth and kite good. And, stack some torment on us while you do this.

Hope this helps and if you take this advice, I hope I dont run into you in wvw.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

No well played Mesmer should ever lose to a burn guard. They can out sustain us by simply kiting and/or perma stealth. In fact, lack of sustains is almost always the reason why Guardians will lose a given fight.

Warriors tend to either burst down Guards very fast, or manages to exhaust our stunbreaks to deliver the finishing blow during their CC rotations. Warriors are definitely an easier fight compared to Mesmers for the sake of there being forms of counterplay involved.

Burn Guardians have a rough time with Eles, Mesmers, Necroe’s condi cleanses/transfers, and other Medi Power AR Guardians, in that order. Everything else is Thief, Engi, War, Rangers that’s roughly a 50% win or better.

Thieves can be tougher and listed higher in the hierarchy but those perma stealthing builds aren’t exactly viable in TPvP.

aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld

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Posted by: ThePaladin.2140

ThePaladin.2140

No well played Mesmer should ever lose to a burn guard. They can out sustain us by simply kiting and/or perma stealth. In fact, lack of sustains is almost always the reason why Guardians will lose a given fight.

Warriors tend to either burst down Guards very fast, or manages to exhaust our stunbreaks to deliver the finishing blow during their CC rotations. Warriors are definitely an easier fight compared to Mesmers for the sake of there being forms of counterplay involved.

Burn Guardians have a rough time with Eles, Mesmers, Necroe’s condi cleanses/transfers, and other Medi Power AR Guardians, in that order. Everything else is Thief, Engi, War, Rangers that’s roughly a 50% win or better.

Thieves can be tougher and listed higher in the hierarchy but those perma stealthing builds aren’t exactly viable in TPvP.

I’ve been having trouble with none of the ones you mentioned except mesmers and that one weird engi that I can’t seem to burn down. Eles are easier for me and so are necros. Warriors are a bit tougher but they are very susceptible to burns.

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Posted by: Soryuju.8164

Soryuju.8164

I’ve been having trouble with none of the ones you mentioned except mesmers and that one weird engi that I can’t seem to burn down. Eles are easier for me and so are necros. Warriors are a bit tougher but they are very susceptible to burns. [/quote]

What I’ve taken from the recent burn Guardian threads is that your counters are going to vary depending on your weapon set and choice of utilities, because right now, lots of people seem to have a different experience with what counters a burn Guardian and what doesn’t. There’s even disagreement on whether or not condition cleanse is an effective counter, likely because some people play the condition Guardian for burst (popping cooldowns to stack 14+ burns all at once) while others use it for more sustained burning (spacing out burns and rapidly reapplying them after cleansing to maintain 5-8 stacks).

If I recall, you also play your burn Guardian primarily in WvW, while Saiyan plays Guardian in sPvP. There is no Dire amulet available in SPvP, so most burn Guardians opt for the Carrion amulet there, and that likely changes our performance against similar builds in these game modes.

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Posted by: Soryuju.8164

Soryuju.8164

As for general counters and tactics:

-Watch for Purging Flames and Judge’s Intervention – both of these skills can start off a burn burst (sometimes together), and reacting effectively to them will put you at a significant advantage for the next ~30 seconds. When you see Purging Flames go down, you can expect to see the Guardian pull out their Greatsword and quickly follow up with either Whirling Wrath, Leap of Faith, or Binding Blade, depending on the situation. WW can stack a huge amount of burns with PF thanks to Burning Bolts from the Fire field, while LoF gives the Guardian a Fire Shield for a few seconds that will force you to back off. Binding Blade is another Whirl Finisher, but it’s mostly dangerous because it can pull people into PF (inflicting 3+ stacks of burn immediately) and set them up for a Whirling Wrath follow-up. Conserve some of your dodges, stun breaks, and other defenses until you see that field go down in each fight. Even if you’re not inside of it, don’t let your guard down.

-When a burn Guardian uses JI, there’s a good chance that you’re going to immediately end up with 6-8 burns on you, since they’ll often start casting their attack (Zealot’s Defense, Zealot’s Fire, Whirling Wratch, etc.) before using JI and warp to you the moment it fires. It can be hard to completely avoid a burst from a well-timed JI, so keep your condition cleanses on hand. If possible, try to interrupt the Guardian’s momentum with blocks, teleports, or hard CC as soon as they warp in. JI is a gap-closer, a heal, and one of the Guardian’s two stun breaks, so getting us to waste it is a great way to gain the upper hand.

-If you don’t see a burn Guardian use Purging Flames during your first extended fight with them, they’re probably running Smite Condition instead. SC gives the Guardian more sustain against direct damage, but more importantly, it changes the way that they burst. SC grants the Guardian Fury and can crit for up to 3k with a Carrion build, and with the Smiter’s Boon trait, they’ll automatically cast SC whenever they use their heal. Guardians using Shelter can burn you if you hit them during their heal, and they’ll proc a second AoE burn if they’re running Balthazar runes (which most do). All of this comes out instantaneously, so if you’re starting to get the Guardian low, you need to watch for a SC+Shelter counter-burst. This will give them a 2s continuous block, heal them for 8k, cleanse two of their conditions, potentially give them 2 stacks of might, hit you for up to 3-6k damage, and put 2-3 stacks of burning on you. This is also an AoE effect, making it especially dangerous if you have multiple allies nearby. Timed appropriately, it can end a teamfight before you have a chance to react.

On a Warrior: As others have said, CC and Berserker’s stance/other cleansing are the key, and the Mace/Shield + GS build is probably more equipped to deal with a burn Guardian than the Hammer/GS build (I don’t recall seeing a Shout Warrior yet in this meta, so I can’t speak for them). Take Brawler’s Recovery and swap weapons often, and be prepared to counter JI with a block (e.g. Shield Stance), stun, or dodge/evade (e.g. Whirlwind attack). Once JI is gone, we’ve only got Contemplation of Purity left to break stuns (and vice-versa), so if you can use a short CC to bait out one of these stun breaks, you can put a lot of pressure on us. Popping Berserker’s Stance early and playing aggressively can go a long way.

On a Mesmer: As mentioned above, kite and CC from a distance. Do NOT stand near your clones, regardless of how far you are from the Guardian or whether you’re stealthed. Burn Guardians will cleave through them in 1-2 hits from a Sword or GS, and your clones feed us VoJ procs for Permeating Wrath. A Guardian can use Flashing Blade, Leap of Faith, and/or JI to rapidly close the distance to you, and being in a crowd of bodies during a WW or Sword auto chain will melt you even if the Guardian is swinging at the wrong target. Don’t give them the opportunity. Be especially careful of Guardians with Smite Condition, since they can wipe most of your clones out instantly every 16 seconds.

If you’re running any type of interrupt build, try to force the Guardian’s stunbreaks with your CC’s, but be aware that the Guardian may still be able to block part of your burst with Shelter/Renewed Focus. Don’t over-commit to a burst until you know that the Guardian has depleted their defenses. With PU, just keep stealthed and at a distance while you wear the Guardian down. If you’re using conditions, it may be in your interest to space them out. We can flip a condition burst into a surge of boons via Contemplation of Purity, or use Purging Flames to cleanse and reduce incoming condi duration for several seconds, but our cleansing over time is weaker.

I’m out of time, but I tried to touch on some points that hadn’t been covered. Hope this helps!

(edited by Soryuju.8164)

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Posted by: ThePaladin.2140

ThePaladin.2140

I’ve been having trouble with none of the ones you mentioned except mesmers and that one weird engi that I can’t seem to burn down. Eles are easier for me and so are necros. Warriors are a bit tougher but they are very susceptible to burns.

What I’ve taken from the recent burn Guardian threads is that your counters are going to vary depending on your weapon set and choice of utilities, because right now, lots of people seem to have a different experience with what counters a burn Guardian and what doesn’t. There’s even disagreement on whether or not condition cleanse is an effective counter, likely because some people play the condition Guardian for burst (popping cooldowns to stack 14+ burns all at once) while others use it for more sustained burning (spacing out burns and rapidly reapplying them after cleansing to maintain 5-8 stacks).

If I recall, you also play your burn Guardian primarily in WvW, while Saiyan plays Guardian in sPvP. There is no Dire amulet available in SPvP, so most burn Guardians opt for the Carrion amulet there, and that likely changes our performance against similar builds in these game modes.

[/quote]

That explains it. Spvp is totally different from WvW. Having multiple suggested counters is actually a testament to the effectivity of a burn guard. You don’t know if he’ll be bursting or sustaining a stack of burns so you’ll have to adjust your playstyle accordingly.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

I also like to add that Elementalists have huge skill gaps. I can beat any Elementalists who consistently re-enters Purging Flames or quite simply, glues themselves on me 24/7 as if they’re a Warrior. The higher experienced, faster rotation Eles who appear to be using macros per attunement rotation (expression) and strategically kite around are the most difficult. They would have to make a mistake and I would have to perform my very best to come out on top.

There’s even less counterplay to Celestial Elementalists compared to Marauders… and Diamond Skin Eles? I rather not talk about that dark part of my life.

aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld

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Posted by: Relentliss.2170

Relentliss.2170

Shout warriors can pretty much neutralise burning.

We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional

Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)

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Posted by: NumenorLord.6539

NumenorLord.6539

Mesmer: Perma stealth, shatter with mantras (if they’re being used), go stealth, rinse and repeat (Guardian skills have really long CD)
Warriors: Time Berserker Stance for the Guardian burn spike (Purging Flames, JI, Torch 4, etc.), as said before Shout builds with Trooper Runes can neutralize really easy.

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Posted by: ThePaladin.2140

ThePaladin.2140

Mesmer: Perma stealth, shatter with mantras (if they’re being used), go stealth, rinse and repeat (Guardian skills have really long CD)
Warriors: Time Berserker Stance for the Guardian burn spike (Purging Flames, JI, Torch 4, etc.), as said before Shout builds with Trooper Runes can neutralize really easy.

This is pretty much the way mesmers deal with me. Kite all day, stealth all night lol. Shout warriors are a bit of a problem but they simply cannot cleanse through that much burning in the long run. By the time they’ve exhausted their cleanses I’ve taken half their HP and stacking more burns. It’s the ones that prevent you from stacking in the first place who are an absolute nightmare.

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Posted by: Liza.2758

Liza.2758

what Saiyan said it’s totally true. if i may add even ranger that doesn’t run full glass they would have enough clean and dmg to deal with burn guard as well.

this’s all spvp though …. i don’t think u need to think much about wvw …. ppl are individually less skill over there.

i personally think Engi p/p condi or ranger condi that focus on burning is way better than guard because they have the sustain and more condi

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

I’d just like to point out, that not only did the specialization update make burn Guard even more viable, but also introduced multiple builds.

This is a glorious time to honor Rodgort.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: RevanCorana.8942

RevanCorana.8942

I’d just like to point out, that not only did the specialization update make burn Guard even more viable, but also introduced multiple builds.

This is a glorious time to honor Rodgort.

you mean radiate Rodgort
radiate / radiance aha
Im funny I know