i keep coming across guards who dont use WoR/SotA (guards two best utilities in dungeons imo) even in projectile heavy dungeons (such as CM, dredge or fire shaman), i find myself having to link them in chat where they’re important just to remind other guards to slot them (incase they havent)
- im genuinely curious; is there any justification for this? i noticed most of them were using shouts (likely runed up too); party defense>shouts right? im not crazy? am I?
(my standard utilities are hold the line, WoR and SotA – i switch out/in if needed/not needed)
They are situationally powerful, so I wouldn’t call them the best. Party defense is always my first concern, and that’s why I usually use shouts. Granting protection, regen, stability and aegis is more useful than projectile reflect when there are no projectiles to be reflected.
Now, in CM, SE, certain fractals or whatever other places have many ranged mobs, you can bet I take out some shouts and add projectile reflects. You’re just silly/lazy not to.
Most guards don’t even switch weapons in combat, let alone switch skills and traits outside of it.
At the fractal level I am (18+) I think Wall of Reflection and Shield of the Avenger is not really needed.
I equip them from time to time, but not always since they are not always needed.
Especially Shield of the Avenger, I can’t rely on the AI too much, it might not appear where I want it to be, and it will stand there and spam its shield ability.
Personally I think they are just crutches for your team to slack off. Unless there is some content where they are absolutely critical to success, I don’t rank them as high in importance as others do.
It is even worse, when you do use these abilities, but your teammates just run away from shield\wall. And then die far from safe spot.
It’s so frustrating sometimes, that I kinda think I should stop using WoR\SoA in pug-parties.
Personally I think they are just crutches for your team to slack off. Unless there is some content where they are absolutely critical to success, I don’t rank them as high in importance as others do.
so; to stop your team slacking off; you do it instead?
wow, love that logic -_-
… brilliant…. just brilliant…
truly
A lot of people don’t put logic into their builds though, or even consider their teammates. They simply use shouts because it’s the most direct buff to themselves.
It’s a lot like Endure Pain Warrior/Monks in GW1 who had no logic to their builds.
Personally I think they are just crutches for your team to slack off. Unless there is some content where they are absolutely critical to success, I don’t rank them as high in importance as others do.
so; to stop your team slacking off; you do it instead?
I’m not slacking because I don’t use projectile controls. On the other hand, if my team isn’t actively dodging and protecting themselves from projectiles, they are.
Honestly, I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to tell others what tools are the best, inferring that they should be using them in specific situations. I think the people using projectile control tools in dungeons should try to do better because the Guardian toolset certainly give people the ability to do so. It’s much too specific to be high on my list of go-to utilities for dungeons.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Personally I think they are just crutches for your team to slack off. Unless there is some content where they are absolutely critical to success, I don’t rank them as high in importance as others do.
so; to stop your team slacking off; you do it instead?
I’m not slacking because I don’t use projectile controls. On the other hand, if my team isn’t actively dodging and protecting themselves from projectiles, they are.
Honestly, I don’t think it’s anyone’s place to tell others what tools are the best, inferring that they should be using them in specific situations. I think the people using projectile control tools in dungeons should try to do better because the Guardian toolset certainly give people the ability to do so. It’s much too specific to be high on my list of go-to utilities for dungeons.
if you are not putting effort into mitigating your teams damage ( projectile defense aegis and blind are your tools as a guardian to do this) then you ARE slacking; reroll as a warr or something if you want other people to do stuff whilst you smash the keyboard
I agree but then again, I didn’t make the assumption that if you don’t have projectile control, you aren’t putting effort into mitigating your team’s damage. I’m of the opinion that there are better, more generally applicable damage mitigation tools and those also include the ones your teamates should be using to mitigate their own and the team’s damage.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I agree but then again, I didn’t make the assumption that if you don’t have projectile control, you aren’t putting effort into mitigating your team’s damage. I’m of the opinion that there are better, more generally applicable damage mitigation tools and those also include the ones your teamates should be using to mitigate their own and the team’s damage.
What tool is better than WoR at mitigating projectiles for Guardians? Please tell me of this ability that’s better than literally reflecting the damage back to the source, which not only mitigates the incoming damage, but also increases the speed at which you kill an enemy.
I’d also like to know what tips you have for doing Dredge Fractal at 40+ with no projectile mitigation.
What tool is better than WoR at mitigating projectiles for Guardians?
Nothing … WoR is great for mitigating projectiles. That doesn’t mean people who don’t use it are delinquent or neglecting their ‘job’ of saving their teammates like the OP implies.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I agree but then again, I didn’t make the assumption that if you don’t have projectile control, you aren’t putting effort into mitigating your team’s damage. I’m of the opinion that there are better, more generally applicable damage mitigation tools and those also include the ones your teamates should be using to mitigate their own and the team’s damage.
What tool is better than WoR at mitigating projectiles for Guardians? Please tell me of this ability that’s better than literally reflecting the damage back to the source, which not only mitigates the incoming damage, but also increases the speed at which you kill an enemy.
I’d also like to know what tips you have for doing Dredge Fractal at 40+ with no projectile mitigation.
You mean harpy/asura fractal? Cant remember using WoR or SoA for dredge fractal much.
While you don’t technically HAVE to, it is smart to have at least one of those utilities for projectile heavy fights (first thing that comes to mind is the imbued shaman fight / disco asura fractal.) I can’t really say why they wouldn’t use those skills, but it’s just one of those things that people learn over time why it’s so handy. Sometimes forcing people to use it will turn them off to using it.
That doesn’t mean people who don’t use it are delinquent or neglecting their ‘job’ of saving their teammates like the OP implies.
It does.
WoR does arguably more dps than guardian itself in Lupi fight, for example.
Doing less dps than you potentially could – is slacking (not to mention you’ll probably save someone, which will increase overall party dps even more).
Refusing to use it is like refusing to go melee as a warrior. It’s counterproductive.
Call me crazy, but I only put on WoR if there are enough dangerous projectiles that any of my guild group is actually threatened. And I almost never use SotA since it became vulnerable. I usually stick to my shouts.
You mean harpy/asura fractal? Cant remember using WoR or SoA for dredge fractal much.
dredge is an extremely projectile heavy fractal; those ground shake things? projectiles. those bullets? projectiles. those bombs? projectiles
any part with dredge you can put up SotA or WoR and basically only get damage by the melee ones (excavators?)
- and SotA destroys the bosses ridiculously high hitting projectile; making it alot safer for the party to melee
SotA and WoR are hardly a Guardians “best” skills. I use WoR sometimes, but in general, it’s just not useful for what I do. If I’m in a dungeon like TA, I’m definitely taking WoR and grabbing my staff. In WvW, I may take WoR, but they really are situational. Stuff with Dredge will always have me equip WoR, I can’t blind those things so gotta do something. On the other hand, the groups I run with for dungeons usually, if not always, have 2-3 Guardians anyway, so I don’t always have to take it WoR.
SotA… it’s meh. Yes, there’s a projectile control, but it can be very unreliable, and I just don’t like spirit weapons. Since they are so squishy, I usually see it as more of a nuisance than a necessity/help. With my builds, I have enough control and support that in dungeons, it’s fine for me to personally not take WoR 100% of the time. In pugs, which I never do anymore, I take it, because I don’t trust that people can dodge boss projectiles and not get dropped off everything.
SotA and WoR are hardly a Guardians “best” skills. I use WoR sometimes, but in general, it’s just not useful for what I do. If I’m in a dungeon like TA, I’m definitely taking WoR and grabbing my staff. In WvW, I may take WoR, but they really are situational. Stuff with Dredge will always have me equip WoR, I can’t blind those things so gotta do something. On the other hand, the groups I run with for dungeons usually, if not always, have 2-3 Guardians anyway, so I don’t always have to take it WoR.
SotA… it’s meh. Yes, there’s a projectile control, but it can be very unreliable, and I just don’t like spirit weapons. Since they are so squishy, I usually see it as more of a nuisance than a necessity/help. With my builds, I have enough control and support that in dungeons, it’s fine for me to personally not take WoR 100% of the time. In pugs, which I never do anymore, I take it, because I don’t trust that people can dodge boss projectiles and not get dropped off everything.
i cant think of any projectiles in TA except the (very few) archers and malrona (which is ridiculously easy to dodge, 1>2>1>2>1>2 attack pattern and well telegraphed… i guess it does alot of damage if reflected?)?
- to add clarification to my OP; i meant in dungeons (with projectiles; obviously its justifiable if youre fighting something with no projectiles)
It really depends on your party composition and the dungeon or fractal level. I only slot it when the group actually needs it. When people make me slot it in an area where it is clearly not needed, I begin to wonder whether or not they should even be in the group.
For an example, I get annoyed when people try to make me slot avenger on bloomhunger. The attacks are so predictable; if you go down more than once here, something is definitely wrong. Funny part is, the only people who has called me out on it for bloomhunger are always the same people constantly being downed for doing stupid things.
But yea, taking avenger and wall is a must for the fire shaman and dredge map on higher levels. There is just way too many projectiles and damage on higher levels on these maps.
(edited by Tinboy.7954)
That doesn’t mean people who don’t use it are delinquent or neglecting their ‘job’ of saving their teammates like the OP implies.
It does.
WoR does arguably more dps than guardian itself in Lupi fight, for example.
It doesn’t because a few instances where a tool is super good doesn’t make it ‘the best’, nor does it make the players that don’t use it delinquent either. Contrary to popular opinion, it’s not the Guardian’s job to be the team babysitter, especially at the expense of generally more useful skills. If WoR is the right skill to use in an specific scenario, use it. Do not try to claim it’s de facto awesome and everyone who’s not using it all the time is clueless because of it.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
From personal experience, I normally get more appreciation from slotting retreat/SY/SYG than projectile reflection. Most party I joined are speed/semi-speed runs, and AOE swiftness/protection/stability are always great in those situations. Not to mention, less dead runner = faster dungeon completion.
On another note, speaking of the dungeon mentioned above, I only find WoR being noticeably helpful in CM, there are some tricks to make the run faster but generally very few spots can be skipped.
For SE, people just run like no tomorrow, and the few spots where party actually stay and fight don’t really need reflection at all or it’s just not essential.
For CoF, not gonna comment on p1; p2 require more stability/stun break and cond removal than reflection; p3 WoR can be very useful if team knows what they doing, but generally people just spread all over the place and reflection end up doesn’t do much.
This is just personal experience, 90% of my runs from PUG, so I am not sure if WoR will make any difference in a more well-organized crew.
If WoR is the right skill to use in an specific scenario, use it. Do not try to claim it’s de facto awesome and everyone who’s not using it all the time is clueless because of it.
Well, no one is saying “use it all the time nab”. One should use it only in situations with a lot of projectiles, so reflecting them is a good way to make your party do steady dps, and also increasing your own dps as well.
And yes, guardian role is using projectile block\reflection when situation needs it. Just as warrior’s role is to deal damage and mesmer’s to use TW\portals\focus pulls.
Not to mention, less dead runner = faster dungeon completion.
Low level dungeons are not really relevant in this discussion. It’s more about arah\fractals where single projectile can potentially down a glass cannon guy who does major part of party dps. And there projectile control means much more than 4s of protection.
Stability is always nice though.
SotA and WoR are hardly a Guardians “best” skills. I use WoR sometimes, but in general, it’s just not useful for what I do. If I’m in a dungeon like TA, I’m definitely taking WoR and grabbing my staff. In WvW, I may take WoR, but they really are situational. Stuff with Dredge will always have me equip WoR, I can’t blind those things so gotta do something. On the other hand, the groups I run with for dungeons usually, if not always, have 2-3 Guardians anyway, so I don’t always have to take it WoR.
SotA… it’s meh. Yes, there’s a projectile control, but it can be very unreliable, and I just don’t like spirit weapons. Since they are so squishy, I usually see it as more of a nuisance than a necessity/help. With my builds, I have enough control and support that in dungeons, it’s fine for me to personally not take WoR 100% of the time. In pugs, which I never do anymore, I take it, because I don’t trust that people can dodge boss projectiles and not get dropped off everything.
i cant think of any projectiles in TA except the (very few) archers and malrona (which is ridiculously easy to dodge, 1>2>1>2>1>2 attack pattern and well telegraphed… i guess it does alot of damage if reflected?)?
- to add clarification to my OP; i meant in dungeons (with projectiles; obviously its justifiable if youre fighting something with no projectiles)
The up/up (???) with the spiders and that part where you gotta run through a kitten ton of archers and blooms lol I never survive unless I have WoR, so I equip it then, and that’s pretty much the only time in that dungeon
SotA and WoR are hardly a Guardians “best” skills. I use WoR sometimes, but in general, it’s just not useful for what I do. If I’m in a dungeon like TA, I’m definitely taking WoR and grabbing my staff. In WvW, I may take WoR, but they really are situational. Stuff with Dredge will always have me equip WoR, I can’t blind those things so gotta do something. On the other hand, the groups I run with for dungeons usually, if not always, have 2-3 Guardians anyway, so I don’t always have to take it WoR.
SotA… it’s meh. Yes, there’s a projectile control, but it can be very unreliable, and I just don’t like spirit weapons. Since they are so squishy, I usually see it as more of a nuisance than a necessity/help. With my builds, I have enough control and support that in dungeons, it’s fine for me to personally not take WoR 100% of the time. In pugs, which I never do anymore, I take it, because I don’t trust that people can dodge boss projectiles and not get dropped off everything.
i cant think of any projectiles in TA except the (very few) archers and malrona (which is ridiculously easy to dodge, 1>2>1>2>1>2 attack pattern and well telegraphed… i guess it does alot of damage if reflected?)?
- to add clarification to my OP; i meant in dungeons (with projectiles; obviously its justifiable if youre fighting something with no projectiles)
The up/up (???) with the spiders and that part where you gotta run through a kitten ton of archers and blooms lol I never survive unless I have WoR, so I equip it then, and that’s pretty much the only time in that dungeon
malrona is the spider boss i assume you’re talking about; i dont know how much damage the reflect does but the projectiles are easy to avoid (i used to D/D ele and melee warr it); unlike stuff like the dredge fractal (where theres projectiles everywhere forever and ever and ever…. until the moles are dead)
- not that im saying WoR would be a bad choice for that boss; i dont know how much damage it does and cant think of any better suited utility anyway; just thakittens not really projectile intensive
blooms dont spawn projectiles; and the only archers that do substancial damage are the ones in the bubbles?
arent all the spiders melee too? with that weird cone (none projectile) attack/webs?
- i havent done TA in months; so i could be forgetting something
FWIW, my utilities are generally Stand Your Ground!/Retreat!/Wall of Reflection. Of them, the one I’m most likely to swap out is WoR for SY!
I still rock the AH build, GS and Staff, runed to clear conditions on shout.
Shy of actually playing FOR my party members, I’m not sure what else I could be doing to keep them upright. Almost 0 conditions, continual might stacking (faster kills = lower damage to party) the most dangerous of projectiles reflected, and Aegis when things get intense.
I can’t think of a circumstance where a spirit weapon would be more useful than what I run now. Really.
EDIT: I’ll also swap in HtL! over WoR on occasion, depending on what we’re up against.
Off the top of my head there’s only one fight in fractals where I use Wall and that’s to project the raving asura’s agony. It’s easy to dodge but I like to just slam those kitty golems as quick as possible at that point in the fractal.
In dungeons, I find it useful in speed clears of certain bosses (TA end boss) and some stuff in Orr, but I don’t keep it on my kit. I change to it when I think it’s necessary, but hey, that’s what is so great about being able to change your utility skills on the fly!
Off the top of my head there’s only one fight in fractals where I use Wall and that’s to project the raving asura’s agony. It’s easy to dodge but I like to just slam those kitty golems as quick as possible at that point in the fractal.
In dungeons, I find it useful in speed clears of certain bosses (TA end boss) and some stuff in Orr, but I don’t keep it on my kit. I change to it when I think it’s necessary, but hey, that’s what is so great about being able to change your utility skills on the fly!
you dont take WoR for shaman/dredge?… really?…
Off the top of my head there’s only one fight in fractals where I use Wall and that’s to project the raving asura’s agony. It’s easy to dodge but I like to just slam those kitty golems as quick as possible at that point in the fractal.
In dungeons, I find it useful in speed clears of certain bosses (TA end boss) and some stuff in Orr, but I don’t keep it on my kit. I change to it when I think it’s necessary, but hey, that’s what is so great about being able to change your utility skills on the fly!
you dont take WoR for shaman/dredge?… really?…
Nope, barely need it. The adds in shaman are easy enough to burst down if people take the right weapons.
And where on earth in dredge do you need wall…
I don’t mean to seem like a scrub, but I’ve honestly never noticed a need for it!
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