Guild Wars 2

tl;dr: Questions and concerns about PvP as a guardian in three parts.
1. Dealing with multiple enemies
2. Dealing with constant conditions/pets
3. Are some weapons really just bad for guards?

I love PvP with Guardian, but I feel really useless with most builds. Pretty much any non-bunker/survival build. Even with the bunker/condition removal builds, I end up with another bar of conditions a second or two later.

I’ve looked at most of the guides here for PvP, and I’ve read a lot of the talk that came after the 10 Dec changes. A lot of people seem to think guardians, as they are now, just aren’t really suited for sPvP. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case, but after playing in PvP I do have a few questions.

First, how do you deal with being outnumbered on regular occasions? I’ve found that one of the play styles for guards is to pick a spot and keep it, but in the game, you’re team will either leave you solo, or you’ll get rushed on the way to that spot. Even with the tankier builds/runes, it’s so easy to be overwhelmed.

Second, how are you dealing with condition stacking and multiple pet enemies? Necros and Mesmers seem to be really popular, and in addition to having the range advantage, there is an army of pets/illusions getting in the way of an already illusive/survivable target. (On that note, dealing with range as a guardian. Do we have more options than sword2/intervention/hammer3? And what about when those are on cd/duration ends?)

And finally, are some weapon combinations really just a bad decision? I really prefer a hammer/sw+sh build, but the shield doesn’t feel much like a shield when I could have better skills from a focus. I do switch weapons as needed, but for some builds that leaves you needing to swap traits constantly, and other times it feels silly to have to switch weapons just to be effective. I get having an alternate set of weapons, but if you constantly have to switch to a more useful set, what’s the point of having the original anyway?

I’m mostly asking these questions because I don’t know if these are problems with the guardian in a PvP setting, or if there is something I missed in the guides/forums/while playing that I can improve to have a better PvP game.

I’m disappointed that just about every build I make has to have Runes of Speed. I really don’t know how to deal with good evasive ranged characters or condition/pet spammers. The only defense I’m really aware of is the burn on block + super retaliation build, in which you get Runes of the Guardian and the trait that gives burning on block, then you take Shelter and off hand focus, and you try to make them burn themselves on you while taking a ton of retaliation damage.

Normally people won’t kill themselves attacking you through retaliation, but retaliation + burning can make them commit to their own fatality before they realize it, and after they stop attacking they’ll just smolder to death. Unfortunately, if someone isn’t attacking you, you’re not dealing a ton of damage.

I haven’t tried putting the burning and the retaliation builds together. It did seem like it relied a lot on being attacked. I mean, on one hand, that’s kind of the point, but on the other you’re right about the lack of damage otherwise.

I’m trying out variations of the builds posted in the sticky with PvP advice, and so far the super bunker hammer/sw+sh and hammer/sc+sh are decent for not dying, and the hammer/staff build is by far the best I’ve found. The two bunker builds are just really nice for removing all the conditions, and for whatever reason the hammer/staff build is listed as a Symbol DPS build that does surprisingly well on the survivability front.

That being said, the biggest downfall of all the builds I’ve seen, except maybe meditation stacking builds, all rely on stacking shouts. I haven’t seen a single suggested build (or tried one, for that matter) that successfully allows for less than 2 shouts. I can’t say whether shouts are just that good in conjunction with traits, or if the other skills are just that bad.

i don’t play a whole lot of PvP but have recently picked it back up again. had my fair share of team tPvP (before soloQ was intro-ed) and qutie a lot of hot join.

1) it does get tough. especially if they are 2, 3 good players. even worse if they are 2, 3 good condition tanks. or mesmers. i personally hate mesmers. lol (though many Guards say they are a non-issue). if you ARE playing a bunker though, the idea is to hold out as long as possible until your cavalry arrives. so this largely depends on your build and ability to use such build to perform well.

that being said, you can use a variety of blocks, blinds, CC, invulns, of course, dodges, and your virtues etc to help with that. if you’re playing the hammer + scepter/shield builds, you have 1 2 knockbacks, one which is instant, 2 immobs, where again 1 is almost instant and also a warding. throw in sanctuary (depending on the map, this is a VERY strong skill) and you can keep your enemies at bay. also, take for example, i play a medi burst build in almost full zerker and i have mace/torch + scepter/focus and often i find myelf up against 2 – 3 players (bad positioning on my own part) i can survive quite long actually with mace 3 block, focus 5 blocks, blind from focus 4, immob from scepter, shelter blocks + heal, virtues, renewed focus for 2s invuln and virtues again and also medi heals. i don’t even run the build with perma vigor. and you can also slot in energy sigils for more dodges.

when i know i am outnumbered.. and no chacne of winning a fight OR getting away, i will try to waste my enemies time as much as possible so the rest of my team, ideally has more time to cap stuff, or win their fights which they should be outnumbering out opponents since if you keep 2-3 guys on yuo, that’s 2 guys less to fight on the other end of the field.

of course, if yuo feel you can manage, put as much pressure as you can on ONE player. you’ll easily see who’s squishier or easier to target. use retal and your passive burning to help you keep the pressur eup as well. use CC to keep the other enemies away when you focus on one guy as best you can.

2) they can be really annoying and tough. :// i won’t say bring more condi cleansing cause sometimes that’s just not a viable answer. bring as much as you feel comfortable with while doing other jobs well as well. if it’s just bunker though, then that’s a different story i suppose, but i don’t play bunker usually. other than the few skills you mentioned, just play EXTREMELY aggressive. stick to them and keep auto-ing when the rest of your skills are on CD. of course, don’t chill in the middle of all their clones or stay in red AoE if you can help it.. knock them out or away from where they want YOU to be. instead put them where YOU want them to be. easier said then done, but just keep pressure up and when i am abel to take control of the fights this way, even if i’m unable to beat my opponents, you’ll have a higher chance of sending them running.

also, in general, don’t blow your condi cleanses too early (unless if they are HUGE stacks and pose immediate threats).

3) i will say there is no one weapon set that trumps all on any given map, with any given composition of team (both your own as well as your opponents). tbh, in PvP, i think all the Guard’s weapons has a place so we’ve got that going for us. then it boils down to your build and what you accomplish to do. as long as you’re comfortable with what you’re playing with, you can find synergy with your build and can adapt to diff situations, then i think you’re good.

there will always be times when you’ll wish, “dangit! wish i had my hammer here for RoW” or “bahhh if i only had my scepter for the ranged insta immob!” or “where’s my sword for when i need to port to center of clocktower after i fell off a bit?” etc etc.

and regarding your comment on most builds running two shouts.. it’s simply because shouts are very powerful. especially in team fights. i run pretty mcuhf ull meditations, but i do miss having shotus as well. or perhaps, compared to our other utilities, the rest just don’t match up. also, when you trait, you tend to be more focused towards one style of play, versus another. for example, to take full advantage of superior aria and pur of voice, for example, or even soldier runes, you’ll want as many shuots on your bar as possible. just one instance though… but i do see what you mean. : ))

so far, it really is either meditations or shouts. consecrations rarely, same as signets. and spirit weapons, well. let’s just say they are quite.. unspirited.

hope this helps fwiw.

Quit playing bunker…

@akamon, that’s actually pretty helpful. I’ve been messing around with the builds, trying out new set ups and variations on the guides, and I’ve found so far that trying to focus too much on a single build has been my downfall.

More than a “bunker” build, I’ve been looking for a high survivability build designed more to disrupt the enemy team than really stand on a point and defend. I think moving away from the stationary bunker to a more mixed control/survival set up lets me effectively control points like a bunker, while still being useful roaming.

I’ve never been really interested in the high burst/damage builds simply because I don’t really think it suits a guardian, and there are plenty of pure damage players in sPvP already. That said, I do think some of the AoE damage builds are a great sort of alternate control. It’s a shame that zeal is such a bad trait line. I’ve tried to use it for some of the nice symbol buffs and spirit weapon stuff, but it’s never been as useful as honor, virtues, or valor. Even early radiance has some better options.

Either way, I think a lot of the problems I’m facing come with time played, and I am admittedly newish to the game. While I think guardians could use some tweaking and quality of life changes as a whole, I’m finding that with more games played, I am dying less and contributing more to the scoreboard.

bllius.9027:

Quit playing bunker…

But according to the DPS thread this is all we are supposed to be doing… :/

Aimhirghin.7502:

More than a “bunker” build, I’ve been looking for a high survivability build designed more to disrupt the enemy team than really stand on a point and defend. I think moving away from the stationary bunker to a more mixed control/survival set up lets me effectively control points like a bunker, while still being useful roaming.

That’s a fairly common misconception.
A usual bunker guard provides A LOT of AoE support and res/stomp potential while being able to stay on a small control point. Even if viable, it’s not a build to be left alone holding a point, but one to be brought to as much teamfights as possible.
If a teamfight is expected to happen on a different point, then you should go there while, eventually, some other team member with lesser impact on teamfights covers your old placement
This kind of roaming is not easy to achieve in soloQ (you might in fact receive a lot of flaming, since everybody seems to be the ultimate roamer-assaulter-teamfighter there and probably won’t cover the point you left), but teamfights are actually where your class really shines and where you should be.

For the kind of role you’re trying to fulfill, you probably shouldn’t use a Guardian. An engineer (even some warrior/mesmer specs) seems to be really close to what you’re looking for.

Vargamonth.2047:

Aimhirghin.7502:

More than a “bunker” build, I’ve been looking for a high survivability build designed more to disrupt the enemy team than really stand on a point and defend. I think moving away from the stationary bunker to a more mixed control/survival set up lets me effectively control points like a bunker, while still being useful roaming.

For the kind of role you’re trying to fulfill, you probably shouldn’t use a Guardian. An engineer (even some warrior/mesmer specs) seems to be really close to what you’re looking for.

But “what if” they want to play a Guardian?

Doesn’t that sort of break the trait and play promised of any class? By saying that you sort of pigeon hole classes to a specific task rather than a particular trait combination. That just doesn’t seem right in my book but of course, I always hold the right to be incorrect.

Crapgame.6519:

bllius.9027:

Quit playing bunker…

But according to the DPS thread this is all we are supposed to be doing… :/

This thread, like so many of the posts on this forum, requires evidence, preferably videos, to prove a topic one way or the other.

All of these ‘statements’ from people are simply opinions, very few facts are presented, and thus endless pointless arguments perpetuate misinformation ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Welcome to the ’nets.

Crapgame.6519:

Vargamonth.2047:

Aimhirghin.7502:

More than a “bunker” build, I’ve been looking for a high survivability build designed more to disrupt the enemy team than really stand on a point and defend. I think moving away from the stationary bunker to a more mixed control/survival set up lets me effectively control points like a bunker, while still being useful roaming.

For the kind of role you’re trying to fulfill, you probably shouldn’t use a Guardian. An engineer (even some warrior/mesmer specs) seems to be really close to what you’re looking for.

But “what if” they want to play a Guardian?

Doesn’t that sort of break the trait and play promised of any class? By saying that you sort of pigeon hole classes to a specific task rather than a particular trait combination. That just doesn’t seem right in my book but of course, I always hold the right to be incorrect.

It would be great to be able to spec every class for every role, just with a different taste, but the game doesn’t work that way at all.

Guardians can’t be really built for control/survival. They can be built for awesome support/survival (shouts), and they can also be built for great damage, retaining a bit of survival and support (meditations) which is pretty much the core of the class.
A heavy melee oriented class with an absolute lack of soft CC just can’t be built for middle ground. You either play really aggresive and stack a good amount of damage (so you can take as much advanatage as possible from those few seconds your enemy is at close range) or give up the damage thing and try to contribute by other means, like support.
One works better on solo/duo (where your damaging potential at close range is enough to prevent enemies from happily staying on the point, and there’s no AoE bombing enough to vaporize you) while the other does on teamfights, so there’sin fact a lot of room covered. The first one is still a decent burster for teamfights (with some support added through AoE condition removal, protection adn retaliation) and the second one is a pretty good holder if solo.
The point is (and I’m with OP on that it doesn’t seem to fit the guardian at all) that meditations one does not perform through control/survival but through really high damage and extremely agressive play.

The best middle ground build I’ve seen this far is probably the GS/Staff 0/10/30/10/20 posted by Stunningstyles some time ago, but that was before the rise of the Warrior, and Healing Signet is probably too much sustain for this build to go through.

Fair enough Vargamonth. It does make for an interesting discussion I guess all in of itself. However, it could be that I’m just stubborn and feel like any class should be able to trait accordingly since several of the classes have homologous traits.

I guess it comes back down to the classes not being set in stone per say or rather no specific healing meta. Yet if I want to go full DPS I should have rolled something else such has a thief or elemental. Yet two of the heavy armor types (guardian and warrior) are supposed to be on the frontlines what would separate the two?

Confusing or stubborn, maybe both. Never the less thanks for having a discussion rather than saying L2P

Playing around with builds some more, I found on that is a little gimmicky, but still a lot of fun while offering decent control and support for the team.

It looks like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJAWSlUgiDnGyKEf4EhVBBi9AjwPjXPoYEbIA-ToAg1CnISSlkLJTSyksJN4YxB

It’s essentially a modified meditation build that sacrifices some personal damage for boon removal with Searing Flames and stacking might with Empowering Might. Depending on the fight, weapons can be swapped out as usual, but for any fight with more than 2 enemies (or even a mesmer/necro team) Staff stacks might ridiculously fast. The second weapon could easily be any of the core meditation build weapon sets. I prefer hammer or sw/sh for the control it offers, but the high damage and crits on Mace 1.3 would work well too.

I like playing around with the runes because Scholar and Soldier get boring, and Pack gives the nice chance to proc extra might/fury and boosts precision. I’m sure this build would work with standard scholar/soldier runes as well.

While I’m sure this build isn’t necessarily “the best” at any one thing, it’s the closest to the middle ground of damage, control, and survivability (often by pushing people out of place with the damage rather than face tanking) that I have found. Even in games where this build falls behind where a more pure build might be, it’s still a lot of fun to see the might stacks and crits rolling in.

Edit: I simply prefer hammer/staff because it’s enjoyable to me. Heading into the high crit builds deeper into Radiance and including a torch/inner fire would likely be more beneficial to damage at the cost of control.

Crapgame.6519:

Fair enough Vargamonth. It does make for an interesting discussion I guess all in of itself. However, it could be that I’m just stubborn and feel like any class should be able to trait accordingly since several of the classes have homologous traits.

I guess it comes back down to the classes not being set in stone per say or rather no specific healing meta. Yet if I want to go full DPS I should have rolled something else such has a thief or elemental. Yet two of the heavy armor types (guardian and warrior) are supposed to be on the frontlines what would separate the two?

Confusing or stubborn, maybe both. Never the less thanks for having a discussion rather than saying L2P

Luckily PvP require 5 minutes to get a new character to 80 lol. So rerolling not needed. Also, the devs have stated, that they don’t want guards to have as much offensive capabilities. Which is very evident in our mobility and soft CC. Now you can DPS guard in yoloQ. Just expect to get torn apart by real roamers like mesmers.

Anyhow, I save my DPS guard play for WvW. Where 99% of the players are utter garbage, and they let me get my bursts off lol. In PvP, its just a different situation. Also, I don’t think an Off guard has ever killed my bunker guard. They just get torn up by my retaliation and ability to mitigate all their attacks.(Since I know guard moves like the back of my hand, they can’t surprise me). Without any kind of condi pressure or soft CC, they are weak.

Guards shine in team fights, with all them boons, rezing, and condi clearing(Save yourself can really save your teammates).

I’m honestly new to PvP in this game, but I’m currently playing a healing Guardian. I know that is not that good and many want to lynch me already, but it’s a fun build to play. He’s no bunker but has a nice survivability on his own and gives a large amount of boons and health to allies. “Stand your ground!” is a must have with all the CC a PvP melee orgy can pop out (can be swapped with “Hallowed Ground” in a more static situation; “Purging flames”, for the same reason, cures 3 conditions AoE; “Contemplation of purity” has to be used at the right time but it’s a life-saver (even with long CD); the elite skill is not that useful but can change the result of a mass combat at a capture point with its 4 and 5 skill. The weapons are just “healing” weapons, with the staff being a little more useful and the mace doing a little more damage (and possibly spreading protection on the party).
The traits are all built towards altruism, with Battle presence and Absolute Resolution being the best for party support (I don’t know the max number of target for Battle Presence, but even if it’s the typical 5 its’ still a cool regen!).

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNApdWlcgqCXGyNEm4ESmCRCBxeoRf0GdpIheIA-T0AgzCmIuR5lzLzNyusdNaYByBkpDvGA

Answering your post: dealing with multiple enemies is a pain in the kitten and this build HAS to be surrounded/accompanied by allies or he will fall (not easily, not at all… but eventually). Conditions can be countered quite easily unless you burn up your flames (-X% condition duration to be noticed) or meditation as soon as a smart necro uses signet of spite. About the weapons I’m not really an expert of other Guardian builds: I tried the sword+torch that is surely more DPS oriented but it just doesn’t fit my way to play (as does basically the whole GW2 system! lol), Hammer is cool for controlling but should have some rework imo, GS is for blunt people… ehm, zerks!