tPvP - Cheese on Cheese - Signet Bunker
Dunno if this will go, but I plan on testing it.
Mace/Shield, Sword/Focus
Accuracy/Purity, Accuracy/Blood (or water)Signet of Resolve, Signet of Mercy, Signet of Judgment, SYG, Tome of Courage (maybe RF instead)
0/30/20/20/0
Signet Mastery, Inscribed Removal, Perfect Inscriptions
Purity, Mace of Justice
Superior Aria (maybe a Writ instead), Resolute HealerCleric Ammy(maybe Celestial or Knights Jewel to squeeze just a bit more Vit)
Vitality Runes. Maybe Soldier, but I think Speed might actually work.
When you are in the Mace set you have good access to protection, coupled with healing from the AA and Symbol (regen) plus your #6 heals for like 10k.
When in the Sword set you can spam AoE blind and alternate with blocks.
You have 2 stun breaks, tons of passive condi removal, AoE weakness, enough crit to keep vigor up most of the time and the 120s CD rez utility might actually prove useful (you have stability and AoE instant cast blinds). Unfortunately you sacrifice a lot of control from what typical bunkers have, but the sustain is pretty fierce.
I see Jax is gonna update his thread soon, so hopefully he will do some of the testing for my lazy behind.
http://www.twitch.tv/jaxsilven/b/472401808
responded in video coz lazy.
I know i could’ve used signets better I have had no practice with them and keep in mind I have ~1s lag.
Hmm. Making a vid seems to be more effort than writing a post, but ok.
You da man.
A few questions you asked during the Video.
What does Perfect inscriptions do?
It increases the effect of signets by 20%. This means that Signet of Resolve removes 2 conditions (which was previously bugged, but allegedly has been fixed, which is why I wanted to test this). Also Signet of Mercy bumps Healing by 228 instead of 190, and Signet of Judgment reduces incoming damage more.
The low health is definitely problematic, and after watching you in a couple matches against hot join baddies I think thieves are actually the biggest problem for this build (probably makes it just outside of viable, and I never thought it would be good enough to displace control bunker).
With Purity, the Passive 2 condi cleanse on signet and the ability to cleanse again from signet use (on .25s cast), and the cleanse on Focus 4 (which you can double bounce to yourself in melee), I don’t think there is a condi problem.
Warriors can be blocked, blinded, weakened and kited (that was why the runes of speed instead of soldier) and you have 2 stun breaks on short CD’s plus the stability from SYG.
Minor issues –
You swapped shield and focus. I paired the shield with mace to get more healing out of SoA when popping the dome.
I went with Resolute Healer instead of running Inspired Virtues because you badly need the Vit and you are control starved on the build, so any way to pop an extra SoA can be handy. Since you have Protection on Shield & mace, Weakness on Signet and Regen on Mace I figure you can get by without the 5 in Virtues.
I agree with your assessment of it as a stand alone. It is inferior to a Control Bunker. That said, I think I may fiddle with it more. There could be a niche use there for a team that needs a rez utility and/or more mobility from the bunker. I don’t think you can take Sig of Mercy as effectively on a Consecration or Shout Bunker. The AoE Blinds and the blocks from these weapon sets and this trait configuration make the long cast more feasible.
What does Perfect inscriptions do?
It increases the effect of signets by 20%. This means that Signet of Resolve removes 2 conditions (which was previously bugged, but allegedly has been fixed, which is why I wanted to test this). Also Signet of Mercy bumps Healing by 228 instead of 190, and Signet of Judgment reduces incoming damage more.
Perfect Inscriptions Bug – currently Signet of Resolve cleanses 1 condition every 0.8 seconds ( not 2 every 10 )
Signet of Mercy is +180 healing or +216 with Perfect Inscriptions
Signet of Judgement is 10% Direct Damage reduction or 12% with Perfect Inscriptions
(edited by Tarsius.3170)
Perfect Inscriptions Bug – currently Signet of Resolve cleanses 1 condition every 0.8 seconds ( not 2 every 10 )
Signet of Mercy is +180 healing or +216 with Perfect Inscriptions
Signet of Judgement is 10% Direct Damage reduction or 12% with Perfect Inscriptions
Did they still not fix that? kitten it.
They did fix it! They replaced it with a slightly different broken version!
( Really that sums up the Oct 15 patch for guards quite nicely imho )
I actually quite like Focused Mind, but everything else has to work to make it viable for use…
Hmmm.
Perfect Inscriptions makes it 1 condi every 8s
Purity is 1 condi every 10s
Sigil of Purity is 1 on crit every 10s
That means that in any given 10s time interval you are proc-ing 3 cleanses (if your heal is up anyway) usually all at different times. The probability of getting the bleed stacks cleansed reliably would be very high. You need to focus on getting Poison and/or Burn with your active cleanses.
Might still work for what was intended even with the trait still being broken (even though 2/10s would be better).
edit: Did some testing. Interesting results.
Much stronger 1v1 than a control bunker. I was killing LB/Hammer Warriors somehow 1v1 (they must’ve been horrendous). You really notice the superior damage output compared to control bunker none the less.
Though under 3100 armor seems risky you can really feel the difference from Sig of Judgment. Because it is percentage based it doesn’t scale perfectly to numbers, but it “Feels” like about 250-300 more armor than what you would think.
S/D and S/P thieves are not a problem at all. Most likely because you are less boon dependent and use conditions liberally as a defense mechanism.Didn’t see a D/P, and they would probably be the weak point (Backstab and poison on the auto chain would be a bear to deal with).
Necromancer was surprisingly easy to handle and I actually had a decent one to go against. Killed him and he was puzzled enough to ask how I did it.
Rangers struggled hard against this build (I don’t think I saw a good one though). It was like they weren’t even there.
Mesmers are actually not as bad as I thought they would be either. Had a couple matchups with a Shatter +others on mid node and was able to hold well over a minute. Downed the Mesmer in the process as well. The cleave was surprisingly effective at mitigating clones and slowing the shatter rotation, not to mention all the spawns make for free proc’s on the mace AA heal which is significantly effective.
I had suspected 1v3’s to be a very weak spot for this build, but was surprised to hold off 2 Warriors + Thief at stillness long enough to frustrate 2 of them into leaving stillness.
Overall you really miss the control ability for holding nodes, and strong pulls/knockbacks like Engi has will get the node neutral against you in 2v1’s, but you can hold the point neutral pretty well until assistance arrives. With no sanctuary you won’t re-cap under 2v1 pressure, but you should be able to prevent a cap for a long period of time.
Skill Notes: Renewed Focus is the only way to go on the elite. Recharging virtues is just too valuable, particularly Justice. The blind is awesome.
Sig of Judgment seems to be key in making the build work. Against opponents that aren’t stun reliant the weakness is huge. Against stun lockers (warriors in particular) the stun break + weakness combo on active just devastates their DPS, and it is even highly useful when immobilized (since you get AoE weakness and a cleanse). When facing RDPS the passive is really a nice bonus too.
Casting the Rez is easily covered with AoE blind (justice active or RoJ or Sword 2) and Focus 5 and/or SYG for stability. I didn’t even use Aegis (courage active) because I didn’t need it. If you can get one knock back/rupt on a stomp, then the rez is a near guarantee.
Gear Notes: Went with Energy Sigil on Shield and Purity Sigil on Focus. Didn’t seem to miss the extra endurance thanks to much higher vigor up time compared to control bunker.
Went with Celestrial Jewel in the amulet rather than Knights. Didn’t seem to miss the vitality, but I am not sure if the difference is really significant. You get more toughness, heal power and crit damage vs. higher Vit Pow Pre in knights. The difference in damage seems small one way or the other as does the difference in sustain. I suppose it is of little consequence.
Speed Runes are really a nice fit. Soldier would probably work (didn’t test), but the kiting ability against melees is really noticeable. It is a struggle to keep snares on you with all the cleanse, so once gap closers are on CD you can kite very reliably.
Disclaimer: Testing was done in Hot Joins, so it needs a bit closer look. I will probably solo que it in the near future, and perhaps put together a team to test too.
(edited by Myrmidian Eudoros.4671)
Did a few Solo Ques and some more tweaking. I think I will still go ahead and give it a team test.
This is a playable build, but not optimal. Control Bunker is still substantially better. There may be a really good fit for this in a comp with an Engi or Warrior main Bunker as an odd roaming support/off-bunker type. It is definitely fun in solo play.
Trait Changes – Writ of Exaltation and Writ of the Merciful help extend outnumbered encounters significantly. The longer CD on SYG isn’t a big deal since you have 2 stun breaks on your bar. A stun break every 13.5s is enough if you aren’t random dodging or badly out numbered especially considering all of the blinds and blocks at your disposal.
Gear Tweaks – I thought Sigil of Purity might be a good add to the build, but the efficiency lost from double energy sigils is just too big. If they had separate CD’s, or if Purity didn’t proc when you were condition free, then I think the Purity sigil would be better on one set, but since unneeded purity procs prevent an energy proc when you need it sometimes it is just too much of a handicap.
Speed Runes are locked in. It works for this build. The additional kiting ability is awesome and particularly in solo que where you might wind up on Spirit Watch it is a major advantage.
Speaking of Spirit Watch, if you put in Staff or Hammer and keep Mace/Focus as your other set it makes for a pretty effective orb runner. On Staff the heal from Empower is ridiculous in this build. Hammer gives you a little more control with the immob and Banish.
Observations:
Found a decent D/P thief. If he gets the drop on you from stealth, then you are screwed in seconds, and even if you see him coming he will eventually get you. Vitality is just too low, and the long CD on your preemptive defenses guarantees that you will eat a backstab eventually, and it is tough to recover from that if Focus 5 is on CD. His attack rate is too fast to counter-act with Blinds/aegis.
Mesmers & Rangers are relatively easy for this build. If you are playing it right, then you just have too much counter for shatters, you have just enough to keep Phantasms at bay if you position Mace 3 really well. Condition variants of both Mesmer and Ranger are too bleed reliant and your passive cleanses do a pretty good job of keeping you bleed free against both. Zerker Mesmers seem to get caught off guard by the sneaky damage you can do, and if you catch them with a Mace 3, then you usually will down them if they don’t disengage from the node and reset.
Necromancers – Still a tough competitor, but very beatable 1v1 with this build. It is a long fight (because your damage is still low-ish), but they can’t open gaps against you effectively, and with liberal use of Focus 4 when you feel like you are getting stacked up or you need to heal (you almost always get poison off on a double bounce Focus 4) you can stay reasonably clean and out heal the constant barrage of conditions.
One of the biggest reasons that a Shout/Control bunker is superior to this one is the AoE support it provides in the form of cleansing and boons. The AoE Heals and blinds that you can pump out in this build are nice, the Rez sig is pretty amazing on the traited 120s CD, but they just aren’t quite as good as what the same old control bunker can give you. By comparison this build is a bit selfish and definitely harder to play.
Oh yeah… The signet rez is bugged too. Won’t rez targets under 33% if they are poisoned, just heals them a bunch.
(edited by Myrmidian Eudoros.4671)
Imo, bunkering as a guardian is all about dodges, blocks, timely protection and invulnerability and team boons and very little to do with toughness althoug obviously you want it at a decent level. I am not saying what you are doing will not work but it sounds more like an off point bunker and imo other classes can do it better particular banner regen warrior and regen/bm ranger to name a couple although there are others.
What it comes down to with me is this: why would I ever play something in tpvp, where I can choose any class and build and play it almost instantly, that can probably be outperformed by fairly significant margins by at least a handful of other classes/builds. I am just not that attached to me guardian in tpvp I guess lol. I play classic mid point bunker cookie cutters with him or support and thats about it because i find him lacking at everything else compared to other class/build combinations I could whip up at a moment’s notice.
(edited by Kwll.1468)
…
What it comes down to with me is this: why would I ever play something in tpvp, where I can choose any class and build and play it almost instantly, that can probably be outperformed by fairly significant margins by at least a handful of other classes/builds.
I main Necro (though I haven’t played it much since July because the terror build got boring pretty fast), so I am not overly attached to Guardian. I happen to like meta-gaming new patches and experimenting with new builds, so I wanted to give this a shot. It turns out that the build is playable and viable, but needs a special team comp to be effective on some maps in Teams. In solo que this build is really strong on Spirit Watch, and I would argue is more effective than a standard control bunker on Foefire because Graveyard invalidates the value of control.
Overall it isn’t as good as control, but it definitely has situational viability that you can take advantage of.