Guild Wars 2

As of last patch, bouncing attacks capable of bouncing to allies can now acquire Illusions as bounce targets; and it appears that bounce logic is now strictly based on distance and not on whether the target is an enemy or an ally. This, overall, is a nerf to the Condition Mesmer.

For my builds, my condition DPS with the Staff can be divided into three very roughly equal parts: Staff Clones (33%), myself (33%), and the extra bounce I get from Illusionary Elasticity (33%).

Now however, the extra bounce from Illusionary Elasticity is very likely to bounce towards a Clone, instead of double tapping my target. The 33% contribution of Illusionary Elasticity to my DPS then is, overall, reduced.

The other problem is that previously, if I do not have allies around, the bounces from myself and my Clones tend to bounce towards me, giving me Might and Fury. This allows me to maintain quite a few stacks of Might on myself, which “transfers” to all my Clones boosting their damage as well; and while Fury on me doesn’t transfer to my Clones it does give me a better chance of proccing Sigil of Earth.

Now, Bounces from WoC will bounce towards my Clones if one of them is the closest target. Not only does this hamper my ability to stack Might, but it doesn’t even affect the damage dealt by the affected Clone (there is some weird things going on with this but overall this statement is correct). While Fury may have an effect (difficult to test this one) and Sharper Images is better than Sigil of Earth, Clones also attack much more slowly than I do. I don’t think this benefit outweighs the drawbacks.

.

However… I feel that this nerf may be an opportunity. Now that Illusionary Elasticity is not a near-guaranteed double damage to Winds of Chaos, perhaps it could be fixed to work with Staff Clones without being OP.

Oh and I might also mention here that the bug where Bleeding from Staff Clone Winds of Chaos lasting only 5 seconds, instead of 7 seconds as with the player’s Winds of Chaos, remains unfixed.

I tested this in a few games after reading. The nerf did happen. It seems not too bad though, mostly due to how staff clones are content to stay in longer range usually. I’m still getting most of the boons.

But it does feel like a slap in the face. Just this week we’ve had some power/condition hybrid builds posted on the Mesmer forums with discussions about this mechanic, and suddenly it’s nerfed. It feels like punishment for trying to diversify builds out of the very popular and powerful 20/20/0/0/30 shatter glass cannons. And on top of that it’s a ninja nerf.

There just needs to be a basic priority mechanic.
1. Target enemy
2. Other enemies
3. Yourself
4. Other friendly players
5. Clones

Simple.

Dear ANet, can this please happen?

Say "summons" instead of clones. It also targets pets (and even critters, wtf).

The bounce will now always go to the nearest target, no matter if it’s friend or foe.

For a detailed explanation and a test setup, check out my posting in the other thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Game-Update-Notes-28-05-2013/page/2#post2114294

Yes, I mentioned in the first paragraph that bounce logic is now based only on distance and not on enemy-ally status.

Given that Condition Mesmers were never in a great spot to begin with and have received a number of apparently unintended nerfs, I’d really like to bring this to a Dev’s attention.

Embolism.8106:

Given that Condition Mesmers were never in a great spot to begin with and have received a number of apparently unintended nerfs, I’d really like to bring this to a Dev’s attention.

If only they cared. >< I have never played a free to play game before but I still think they make plenty of money from gems to hire a few more people if all this neglect is just low staffing or give them selves a bit of a raise if it means they will actually work.

Yes, the problem seems to be that the Devs don’t even know the Condition Mesmer exists. They probably (like most players) think that Condition Mesmer = Confusion Mesmer, or worse Glamour Mesmer.

I think it should randomly hit a target (ally or enemy, even ambient) in bounce range… Winds of CHAOS.

The current state is worse than the previous state… so that equals nerf. And the chaos part was the randomness of the conditions and buffs applied. In solo play the Mesmer was always guaranteed 4 bounces back to themselves before this patch… Now… It goes to… clones… This is useful? No.

Esplen.3940:

I think it should randomly hit a target (ally or enemy, even ambient) in bounce range… Winds of CHAOS.

I think the “chaotic” aspect of WoC refers to the fact that it applies random conditions/boons. Currently, it bounces to the nearest entity, regardless of what that entity is. How can you say that the bouncing is random when it always goes to the closest target?

A clone with might stacks? I sense my enemies shivering…

Assassin.7890:

A clone with might stacks? I sense my enemies shivering…

Not sure but I think… /sarcasm? lol. Yea definitely… if maybe those 12 might stacks affected how much damage a clone shattered with that would be cool… buttttt…. not how it works… since shatters scale off our stats.

sarcasm yeaaah
I mean, that is hilarious – cmon, a buffed clone? in PvE Content they tend to do 0 dmg.

Assassin.7890:

sarcasm yeaaah
I mean, that is hilarious – cmon, a buffed clone? in PvE Content they tend to do 0 dmg.

Might also affects Condition Damage, which Staff Clones (or any Clone with Sharper Images) dish out.

The problem, however… is that Might on Illusions doesn’t affect them at all, while Might on yourself boosts the damage of you and all your Illusions.

Having Clones steal your Might stacks when they can’t even use them is just… well.

thats what I mean… might on clones? senseless

Soooo the one with the boons isn’t always the real one now? Greaaat.

Nope, it’s the one with the food ^^

WyldKat.4712:

Soooo the one with the boons isn’t always the real one now? Greaaat.

If you can’t recognise the real Mesmer without this then you need re-evaluate your play.

Haha, sometimes I try to act like a clone and it actually does seem to fool people on occasion.

But the nice thing is that we’ll actually see a buff in WvW and PvE, where most of the time attacking an enemy will actually give you 3-4 enemies struck. I’m excited to finally see more damage numbers in WvW… It sucks to have to use AoE’s and other tactics (Like swapping to a GS) that aren’t part of your build to guarantee badges during good fights.

I’ll take that as a buff to PvE and WvW and a little nerf to sPvP and small 1v1/2v2 fights.

We have a lot of ways to win 1vX and 2vX fights anyway. It’s not a nerf that will really matter in the scheme of things. I’d argue it’s more of a quality of life improvement.

What I’d really like to see is Staff #1 ability turn into Guardian’s Staff #1. Hit 5 targets each per cast? Thx I’ll take it.

What buff? Mirror Blade and Winds of Chaos bouncing off my clones, ranger pets, inanimate objects, rats, rabbits isn’t doing jack.

Just so you guy are aware, this has been the case with every other class weapon skill that works like your bounce for quite sometime. The Mesmer’s were an exception to the rule, and speaking from the rest of the community welcome to our world. It’s not a big deal, as every other class has been working under the assumption that this was normal.

Bas.7406:

Just so you guy are aware, this has been the case with every other class weapon skill that works like your bounce for quite sometime. The Mesmer’s were an exception to the rule, and speaking from the rest of the community welcome to our world. It’s not a big deal, as every other class has been working under the assumption that this was normal.

Actually, it isn’t the same. Our minions don’t get stronger when they get might because they don’t actually have their own native power they use our power. So it becomes totally useless. That is the major issue.

Bas.7406:

Just so you guy are aware, this has been the case with every other class weapon skill that works like your bounce for quite sometime. The Mesmer’s were an exception to the rule, and speaking from the rest of the community welcome to our world. It’s not a big deal, as every other class has been working under the assumption that this was normal.

Actually, if you look in this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Major-bug-with-Bouncing-skills-mechanic you’ll see a number of Engineers and others who explicitly state the bounce mechanic is not working for them as it used to. Some report their turrets are getting speed buffs from bounces post patch.

Bas.7406:

Just so you guy are aware, this has been the case with every other class weapon skill that works like your bounce for quite sometime. The Mesmer’s were an exception to the rule, and speaking from the rest of the community welcome to our world. It’s not a big deal, as every other class has been working under the assumption that this was normal.

The issue here is really with skills that have the option to bounce between allies OR enemies. Here is a list of all the skills that can do that:

Guardian:
-Light of Judgment (Trident Auto)
-Purifying Ribbon (Tome of Courage, 3 sec CD)
-Ray of Judgment (Focus, 25 sec CD)

Necro:
-Reaper’s Touch (Focus, 18 sec CD)

Engineer:
-Elixir F (Elixir Gun, 8 sec CD)

Mesmer:
-Winds of Chaos (Staff Auto)
-Siren’s Call (Trident Auto)
-Mirror Blade (Greatsword, 8 sec CD)

Of that entire list, assuming that the Guardian and Necro skills had no change in their behavior, it’s my understanding that the Mesmer and Engineer skills had their bouncing logic changed. I just don’t see how you can make the claim that we need to suck it up because other classes have to deal with this issue.

The reality is that they don’t. Half the classes don’t even have skills that are affected by this. It’s not as if they’ve been silently suffering; they simply aren’t affected. Also, when HALF the skills that bounce to allies have their logic changed, I would hardly consider that bringing them “in-line” with the norm.

Now, let’s look at why this change is so disastrous to Mesmers. First, Winds of Chaos and Siren’s Call are both auto-attacks. They make up a significant portion of a condition mesmer’s dps and with this change, there is a high probability that the bounces will just go between clones without ever returning to an enemy, which leads some to believe that this may be the final nail in the coffin for any sort of condition build on the mesmer. Then there is Mirror Blade, which previously offered a significant power boost to GS mesmers and their allies. With this change their damage is ultimately reduced, which along with the iZerker bug, has led many to claim that the GS is now sub-par as a weapon.

Remember that a Mesmer will ALWAYS have illusions up in combat, and that these changes result in a significant DPS loss for multiple Mesmer builds. A Guardian using Light of Judgment is rarely going to have to worry about his bounces being wasted on a clone (that being said, there’s no reason why ALL bouncing skills shouldn’t ignore allied pets/turrets/minions/illusions). A Necro does have to worry about bounces going to minions, but a skill on an 18-sec cooldown isn’t as much of a factor in total DPS as the auto-attack is. The engineer is also decently affected because having a turret prevent him from getting swiftness or his foe from getting crippled could change the course of a battle, but doesn’t have the same bearing on dps as changing the entire nature of auto-attacks.

Hopefully all this goes to show how important it is for this change to be reverted. As is, this change essentially makes the GS undesirable and renders condition builds almost useless. Mesmers are, without a doubt, the class most affected by this change and simply saying that this brings us in line with the norms grossly misrepresents the magnitude of these changes.

Bas.7406:

Just so you guy are aware, this has been the case with every other class weapon skill that works like your bounce for quite sometime. The Mesmer’s were an exception to the rule, and speaking from the rest of the community welcome to our world. It’s not a big deal, as every other class has been working under the assumption that this was normal.

Hate to disagree with you Bas, but I know that Reaper’s Touch changed very recently so that it will bounce towards a Necromancer’s minions: before it would never choose them as targets, although you could occasionally get them to intercept the particle. I suspect bouncing behavior game-wide was changed, and mesmers noticed it first (and most loudly) because it hurt how some of their skills work so drastically.

Edit: Regarding a full, game-wide reversion of this change: I’m not so sure. For mesmer clones, certainly- but for a necromancer, healing minions with Reaper’s Touch could be a fully intentional tactic, and if a necro doesn’t want them to get the bounces, they have more options to try and use the skill in a brief window where minions aren’t crowding their target.

Both targeting mechanisms are broken.

Bas.7406:

Just so you guy are aware, this has been the case with every other class weapon skill that works like your bounce for quite sometime. The Mesmer’s were an exception to the rule, and speaking from the rest of the community welcome to our world. It’s not a big deal, as every other class has been working under the assumption that this was normal.

The problem is that Mesmers have an entire build that revolves around a bouncing attack capable of hitting allies and enemies. Other professions do not have autoattacks that do this, much less builds that depend on said autoattack. To make things worse Mesmers also tend to have lots of useless targets (read: Clones) up to steal bounces.

So yes, it is a big deal. Condition Mesmer DPS is greatly nerfed.

Still not fixed. I’m hoping that Anet sees this as a bug to be fixed for “bug fixing month” and will balance it out when “balance month” comes, but I have doubts it will happen. It seems to me that Anet Devs think Shatter and Phantasm Mesmers are the only Mesmer builds and are unaware of all else.

I play staff up close so the change doesn’t impact me much. I feel staff is not really a good range weapon anyway.

I don’t think this was an intentional nerf. I think it was a side-effect of another change. That happens often when writing software for a complicated system with lots of inter dependencies.

juno.1840:

I play staff up close so the change doesn’t impact me much. I feel staff is not really a good range weapon anyway.

I don’t think this was an intentional nerf. I think it was a side-effect of another change. That happens often when writing software for a complicated system with lots of inter dependencies.

There is a difference between medium range and melee range. Previously you reach the Staff’s maximum DPS at around 600 range, now you practically have to hug your target to ensure you catch all the buff bounces and that your IE bounce will actually hit your target instead of being gobbled up by a Clone. Overall not only is it much harder to keep your DPS maximised, you’re also forced to expose yourself to much more danger to do so.

I don’t think anyone considers this an intentional nerf, which is why it’s so sad. Staff Condition Mesmers are so off Anet’s radar they nerf us (twice) unintentionally.

I use staff for melee range, not mid-range because:

- bounces hit me, and hit me fast
- eliminates the pain of the slow #1 projectile.
- allows me to lay various ethereal fields on top of both me and my foe (chaos storm, NULL field).
- clone creation and shatters at point blank range (including self-kittener)

Yeah I know sword is really good for this, but I find staff the most fun in melee.

Side note: I prefer to use NULL offensively because of it’s devastating effects on bunkers. If I get to stand in it too, bonus!

juno.1840:

I use staff for melee range, not mid-range because:

- bounces hit me, and hit me fast
- eliminates the pain of the slow #1 projectile.
- allows me to lay various ethereal fields on top of both me and my foe (chaos storm, NULL field).
- clone creation and shatters at point blank range (including self-kittener)

Yeah I know sword is really good for this, but I find staff the most fun in melee.

Side note: I prefer to use NULL offensively because of it’s devastating effects on bunkers. If I get to stand in it too, bonus!

If you stay in melee range then you’re essentially face tanking everything. Things like Chaos Storming you and your target requires you to stay in melee range for only a while, and you usually have other defences up to compensate for the face tanking anyway (e.g. Chaos Storm). An effective Staff Mesmer (previously) flits in and out of melee range, closing in only when it suits them. If you always stay in melee range then you’d be taking far more damage than you need to, plus you won’t be taking full advantage of the Staff’s best defensive skill: Phase Retreat.

Besides, unlike PvE mobs PvP opponents do not always stand there and let you hit them, they’d be moving around too; and you might not be able to hug them all the time. I don’t think I need to explain the advantages of having the option of ranged combat over being forced into melee.

One of the best combinations in staff is Chaos Storm/Phase retreat wherein you can stack boons from the storm, bail when it’s about to end, then stack more boons from the Chaos Armour. The problem is once you phase out you Winds of Chaos bounces are most likely going to be wasted on the clone you left behind. Not phasing out however seems like a serious waste of one of the better weapons combos in the set. Further, I see no justification for this new bounce logic, it’s not like people were tearing up the forum complaining about condition mesmers.

Umbra Eight.3651:

One of the best combinations in staff is Chaos Storm/Phase retreat wherein you can stack boons from the storm, bail when it’s about to end, then stack more boons from the Chaos Armour. The problem is once you phase out you Winds of Chaos bounces are most likely going to be wasted on the clone you left behind. Not phasing out however seems like a serious waste of one of the better weapons combos in the set. Further, I see no justification for this new bounce logic, it’s not like people were tearing up the forum complaining about condition mesmers.

Oh but they were. I wouldn’t be surprised if Anet thought that all Condition Mesmers = Glamour Confusion Mesmers and must be nerfed into the ground.

But no, I doubt this was an intended nerf.

Embolism.8106:

If you stay in melee range then you’re essentially face tanking everything. Things like Chaos Storming you and your target requires you to stay in melee range for only a while, and you usually have other defences up to compensate for the face tanking anyway (e.g. Chaos Storm). An effective Staff Mesmer (previously) flits in and out of melee range, closing in only when it suits them. If you always stay in melee range then you’d be taking far more damage than you need to, plus you won’t be taking full advantage of the Staff’s best defensive skill: Phase Retreat.

Besides, unlike PvE mobs PvP opponents do not always stand there and let you hit them, they’d be moving around too; and you might not be able to hug them all the time. I don’t think I need to explain the advantages of having the option of ranged combat over being forced into melee.

Yes I understand that — I sorta thought it was obvious. Saying that I like staff for melee doesn’t imply face-tanking, nor standing there like an idiot getting wailed on. You need to get into melee if you want to take full advantage of the self-shatter, 30pt mez trait.

My point was a counter to a pure mid-range use of the staff. Consider also using the staff in melee against non-melee opponents — again very effective.

juno.1840:

Embolism.8106:

If you stay in melee range then you’re essentially face tanking everything. Things like Chaos Storming you and your target requires you to stay in melee range for only a while, and you usually have other defences up to compensate for the face tanking anyway (e.g. Chaos Storm). An effective Staff Mesmer (previously) flits in and out of melee range, closing in only when it suits them. If you always stay in melee range then you’d be taking far more damage than you need to, plus you won’t be taking full advantage of the Staff’s best defensive skill: Phase Retreat.

Besides, unlike PvE mobs PvP opponents do not always stand there and let you hit them, they’d be moving around too; and you might not be able to hug them all the time. I don’t think I need to explain the advantages of having the option of ranged combat over being forced into melee.

Yes I understand that — I sorta thought it was obvious. Saying that I like staff for melee doesn’t imply face-tanking, nor standing there like an idiot getting wailed on. You need to get into melee if you want to take full advantage of the self-shatter, 30pt mez trait.

My point was a counter to a pure mid-range use of the staff. Consider also using the staff in melee against non-melee opponents — again very effective.

the 30 point trait into illusions is cool yeah. But usually if it is a pure condition Mesmer build. You will likely see them go less into illusions most likely as far as iElasticity.

juno.1840:

Embolism.8106:

If you stay in melee range then you’re essentially face tanking everything. Things like Chaos Storming you and your target requires you to stay in melee range for only a while, and you usually have other defences up to compensate for the face tanking anyway (e.g. Chaos Storm). An effective Staff Mesmer (previously) flits in and out of melee range, closing in only when it suits them. If you always stay in melee range then you’d be taking far more damage than you need to, plus you won’t be taking full advantage of the Staff’s best defensive skill: Phase Retreat.

Besides, unlike PvE mobs PvP opponents do not always stand there and let you hit them, they’d be moving around too; and you might not be able to hug them all the time. I don’t think I need to explain the advantages of having the option of ranged combat over being forced into melee.

Yes I understand that — I sorta thought it was obvious. Saying that I like staff for melee doesn’t imply face-tanking, nor standing there like an idiot getting wailed on. You need to get into melee if you want to take full advantage of the self-shatter, 30pt mez trait.

My point was a counter to a pure mid-range use of the staff. Consider also using the staff in melee against non-melee opponents — again very effective.

If you’re trying to stay in melee range against a non-melee opponent, don’t you think they would be trying to stay away from you? What you say works in PvE because it’s easy, but try it in PvP: it’s hardly that simple.

As said, Illusionary Persona is not a particularly important trait for Condition Mesmers. The most you get out of it is two extra stacks of Confusion, which given the state of Confusion is not a big deal compared to the +50% damage you get in a Shatter build. It’s not bad, but it’s not essential either; and many Condition Mesmers do not take it.

Me, I prefer to sink an extra 10 points in Dueling for Duelist’s Discipline and get 100% Projectile Finisher with iDuelist. That’s 8x of Confusion through an Ethereal Field, far more useful than the piddly 2x Confusion from Cry of Frustration.