Guild Wars 2

Hyung.6140:

This is it exactly. You could debate endlessly whether they were needed, and I would say no – mesmers were very much beatable, you just had to know how to counter them. Some would say yes.

But what isn’t debatable is that these changes definitely reduce fun.

Well, duh. Nerfs to a class make it less “fun” to play for players of that class, and more fun to play (well, to play against) for players of other classes.
That is… a given. In competitive gaming at least.

Balancing as a whole cannot exist if we are to never decrease how much “fun” a class is, because for us, fun is largely winning.

I remember an article early after SC2-release which talked about how if the game is balanced, you know because everyone thinks it’s not fun & not balanced.
The issue is that a 50/50 win/lose balance, to us humans, feels like we “lose too much”. It’s a perception issue, but generally this leads to the crux that players will always have to feel that their side is “too weak”, when it is actually balanced.

Nerfing is never fun, but usually unavoidable and has to happen a lot in multiplayer games. The idea that buffing instead is a better idea only sounds good until you try to use it.

But really, how would you nerf without “reducing fun”, if apparently the loss of power is exactly what’s causing the reduction in fun?
You very rarely see a player state “Geez, thanks for the nerf, it’s much more fun to play this char now that I’m hitting 30% weaker.”, no matter how warranted the nerf was in the first place. In essence, no player derives fun from their own class being balanced. However as someone fighting that class, their nerf is your quality of game increase because you no longer feel marginalized. In short, their nerf is your “more fun”.

While you are indeed correct that nerfs reduce the fun – usually – it’s utopian to think this can be avoided.

blutstein.2468:

i’m getting tired reading complaints over complaints.

I’m getting tired of reading Mesmer patch notes 2 months in advance in the Spvp QQ threads.

You forgot to mention the focus nerf: “oh, look, a mesmer dropped a temporal curtain, let me reach for the other side of the borderland before he can pull me into the void…”

AndrewSX.3794:

blutstein.2468:

i’m getting tired reading complaints over complaints.

I’m getting tired of reading Mesmer patch notes 2 months in advance in the Spvp QQ threads.

shame on you for not realizing that spvp is the most important thing in gw2.

esport wannabes, esport wannabes everywhere u.u

Carighan.6758:

“Fun” is a very relative thing, LordByron.

No sorry RTL nerf for ele was UNFUN
BF nerf is UNFUN

There is no way debating on that autoattack is not fun as waiting is not fun.

But also is about having more tactics and more freedom.

just 2 examples:
Take champion dredge in fotm
Having a mesmer to stand melee in front of him to stop his attack was FUN, required skill and tactic.

Now you probably get hit through evasion if you try and for sure you don t stop anything.

Traveling in ORR with RTL was FUN and in NO WAY it made ele OP or anything (D/D is severely UP in pve).

So in order for few players to have fun in PvP some lazy developers came up to that solution.
And that is why i would like them to realize how this game would die if pve players started for ONCE to show somehow them that they are THE MOST.

p.S. and differently from PvP, dps is what keeps PvE characters Alive….they have to kill threats before they run out of defensive skills and lower the chance of the oneshot nonsense coming from environment.

Oh, I don’t argue that we need more sPvP-splits.
sPvP is becomes a serious balance-threat to both WvW and PvE, partially because the community of it is so incredibly loud-mouthed and has such a foul mood.

However, do keep in mind that even in WvW, that guy jumping you may been just a little bit frustrated that I was invulnerable for 2s every 8s. His fun increased as a result of this change.
D/D Elementalists were zooming all over the place with their low-CD RTL, especially given that the class already has infinite access to Swiftness on top of having a 25% runspeed signet. Their large-scale mobility (getting from fight A to fight was superb, and even on a PvE-level that is worth of a balance-look.

As an encounter-designer my fun decreases if I have to assume the Mesmer is going to freely skip through most single blow attacks unless I deliver them more often than once every 8s, so fast that other classes without such defences would easily die from them.
The solution is not to give up on encounter design entirely (good thing they didn’t, see new dungeon), or to give everyone BF.

And hey, even as a Mesmer, the nerf isn’t all that bad. It’s only +2 CD, and the ability to avoid some of the worst kitten is gone but that feels more balanced versus the Scepter’s block now.

LordByron.8369:

p.S. and differently from PvP, dps is what keeps PvE characters Alive….they have to kill threats before they run out of defensive skills and lower the chance of the oneshot nonsense coming from environment.

I take it that you haven’t done the new dungeon yet?
Their PvE-encounter design team is finally “getting it”. The bossfights punish you for trying to bulldoze them, while being comparatively easy in defensive or “trickster” setups. We briefly pre-thought the final fight in regards to group ability selection, and after 1 more wipe due to two people lagging out, it went down nice and easy.

Carighan.6758:

Hyung.6140:

This is it exactly. You could debate endlessly whether they were needed, and I would say no – mesmers were very much beatable, you just had to know how to counter them. Some would say yes.

But what isn’t debatable is that these changes definitely reduce fun.

Well, duh. Nerfs to a class make it less “fun” to play for players of that class, and more fun to play (well, to play against) for players of other classes.
That is… a given. In competitive gaming at least.

Balancing as a whole cannot exist if we are to never decrease how much “fun” a class is, because for us, fun is largely winning.

I remember an article early after SC2-release which talked about how if the game is balanced, you know because everyone thinks it’s not fun & not balanced.
The issue is that a 50/50 win/lose balance, to us humans, feels like we “lose too much”. It’s a perception issue, but generally this leads to the crux that players will always have to feel that their side is “too weak”, when it is actually balanced.

Nerfing is never fun, but usually unavoidable and has to happen a lot in multiplayer games. The idea that buffing instead is a better idea only sounds good until you try to use it.

But really, how would you nerf without “reducing fun”, if apparently the loss of power is exactly what’s causing the reduction in fun?
You very rarely see a player state “Geez, thanks for the nerf, it’s much more fun to play this char now that I’m hitting 30% weaker.”, no matter how warranted the nerf was in the first place. In essence, no player derives fun from their own class being balanced. However as someone fighting that class, their nerf is your quality of game increase because you no longer feel marginalized. In short, their nerf is your “more fun”.

While you are indeed correct that nerfs reduce the fun – usually – it’s utopian to think this can be avoided.

Well, no, for me the fun is the combat. If they’d nerfed damage numbers I’d still have fun – all my skills are available to use, I can use my own skill in using them to maximise my potential, I’d just hit less harder.

Nerfing cooldown lessens the fun of actually playing your class.

I’m not talking about winning at all.

For example: nerfing all skills cooldown to 10 minutes vs nerfing all damage to 10% of its former value… one literally removes all the fun as it reduces you to doing nothing, the other still allows you to play, albeit with the frustration of hitting like a sponge.

Make sense?

I well understand the SC2 comparison and am used to the idea that balance means around a 50% win rate against players of your skill level. I’m not complaining that these changes mean I’ll lose more fights (though that will be frustrating!) I’m complaining that I have less options both during those fights (my skills are on cooldown for longer so I have less to choose from, and choices are what makes games fun) and outside those fights (fewer viable builds as all but a couple of builds got nerfed).

Hope you see what I mean when I say these changes reduce fun now, and can imagine how they could have nerfed these things in a way that doesn’t reduce this fun.

Well, yes, you’re right on that. Though specifically as a Mesmer, I think my CD issues are in my utility abilities (just look at some of them, they feel like elites from their CD, not utility skills) and the #4 and #5.

Only Elementalists share such super-slow #4 and #5 , and they have four sets of them instead of two.
BF with a 12s CD, and lack of access to the -20% on clone/phantasm CD? Nah, that’s not the issue. Generally too high CD on utility skills and offhand/4+5 skills is.

But I would go as far as to say that’s a game-wide issue, so it needs a game-wide fix. Though for the utility CDs, we really stand out. Why is Portal a 90s CD? Why is Veil with it’s crappy 2s duration a 90s CD? Why is IoL a 130s CD? For that matter, why is Time Warp a 210s CD?
Why not give me a 5-target limited 20s lasting Portal on a 30s CD?
Why not give me a Veil which lasts 15s on a 15s CD, but works for both sides (I’d re-implement it so that if you’re on opposite sides of the Veil, you cannot interact with each other)?
Why not make Time Warp 60s CD, but again, make it work for everyone, it warps time, not friendly players. It’s not called “Warp Time For Some People Only”. You act faster, everything else acts faster. Tactical tool for when you think you win more from that than the enemy, say, on a wall.

And so on…

Carighan.6758:

D/D Elementalists were zooming all over the place with their low-CD RTL, especially given that the class already has infinite access to Swiftness on top of having a 25% runspeed signet. Their large-scale mobility (getting from fight A to fight was superb, and even on a PvE-level that is worth of a balance-look.

Infinite swiftness requires a couple of traits, it’s not free.
Swiftness is 33% run speed. Signet is 25%. Max run speed is 33%, so it very much not optimal to use both.
Ride the Lightning was 15 second cooldown, nerfed to 20 second, then nerfed to 40 (unless you enter combat and have movement speed reduced, which defeats the purpose of a mobility skill). When autotargetting is on, it fires to the side and aggros mobs, fires you back into zergs or off cliffs to your death. If it’s off, it can miss target easily and have double cooldown. It didn’t disrupt balance in combat. It was placed in the game so that eles could zoom around the map, but was nerfed due to people escaping battles in pvp with it, causing much complaining.

Clark Skinner.4902:

It didn’t disrupt balance in combat. It was placed in the game so that eles could zoom around the map

I’d love to see a quote on that. :P
Because to me, that skill is for charging your opponent – the longest reaching skill of that type IIRC. Seeing how daggers are a short-range weapon, having such a long-range charge seems perfectly sensible and fitting.

Started playing Mesmer from the beginning when it was the least played class. Then the very small majority that play PVP in this game figured out how good it was and the massive bandwagon began. People cried and cried and anet responded.

Since then it has been nerf after nerf after nerf. Yeah it’s still better than playing ranger, but it won’t be too much longer before people won’t want a mes in their group. 2-3 more patches?

Another patch focused ENTIRELY ON PVP BALANCE that just decimates PVE builds. Nice anet, said you weren’t gonna do that anymore? Lies, all of it lies.

Dastion.3106:

I’m going to have to disagree on brushing off the bouncing fix as just a ‘not counting’. It’s obvious they were messing with something behind the scenes to cause the initial issue – they just let it slip in unfinished, much to our annoyance.

If you notice, bouncing isn’t the same as it was before the ‘bug’ appeared. Illusions are now viable targets for bounces where they were not before, and bouncing now sets them low on the priority. This is quite a good quality of life change for the Mesmer.

Unfortunately the bounces still prefer to disperse themselves between allies instead of bouncing to our target. While 3 Might is nice, I still prefer 2k crits and 3 Vuln.

Kanto.1659:

Unfortunately the bounces still prefer to disperse themselves between allies instead of bouncing to our target. While 3 Might is nice, I still prefer 2k crits and 3 Vuln.

Well that’s nice, but others don’t. There’s no truly “right” way to do this.

Of course there is. It’s an attack. It should attack. Incidentally it buffs, and this is nice because, hey, it’s a bouncing attack, so we can crit for 2k, give 3% more damage party wide, then whomever is closest gets 3 stacks of Might, which is good, more damage, then another 2k (if it crits), 3% damage party wide, etc.

Someone cares to do the math on whether 100 power/condition for 10 seconds does more or less than 2k damage + hipothetical 3% party wide damage increase?

Build diversity? Every build now has 25 fewer points to work with because of the Illusionists Celerity change. All has been said already. My Mesmer is sidelined until something else is done.

Blood~

Bloodgruve.6038:

Build diversity? Every build now has 25 fewer points to work with because of the Illusionists Celerity change. All has been said already. My Mesmer is sidelined until something else is done.

Blood~

Or you simply play without that trait. It’s not necessary, and builds work mighty fine without it. Ofc it’s a very strong trait, but hey, that’s why it’s 25 deep into one tree.

Carighan.6758:

Bloodgruve.6038:

Build diversity? Every build now has 25 fewer points to work with because of the Illusionists Celerity change. All has been said already. My Mesmer is sidelined until something else is done.

Blood~

Or you simply play without that trait. It’s not necessary, and builds work mighty fine without it. Ofc it’s a very strong trait, but hey, that’s why it’s 25 deep into one tree.

Technically it’s 20 fewer points!

And also the trait isn’t inherently strong. If the cooldown on all our skills was 24 hours this trait wouldn’t be considered strong, the cooldowns would be considered (very!) weak.

Pre-patch mesmers would fairly universally say they felt underpowered without this trait, which is why it was seen as reasonable that it was only 5 points. Some would say we were forced to throw away 5 points just to reach a reasonable starting point, so we only had 65 points to play with!

Of course that’s all debatable, but the trait in-and-of-itself is neither weak nor strong as it’s all relative to our cooldowns, which we’ve both agreed before are problematic.

tl dr; please stop referring to the trait itself as powerful as it depends on other factors. Arguably the trait forms a baseline by which mesmers have previously been judged.

Lue.6538:

I meant the scepter, which has always been perfectly viable, people just prefered blurred frenzy, not that unlike the 100b warriors.

Ofcourse you meant the Scepter, as we don’t have any other weapons. However, you specifically stated ‘one of the other weapons’ – plural.

But if you honestly believe Scepter is perfectly viable, you really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about in my opinion.

Mesmer scepter:

• too slow
• clones at the end of an autoattack chain
• confusion is worthless in PvE because npc attacks are too slow
• confusion damage was nerfed by 50% everywhere else
• confusion does nothing if the target does nothing
• doesn’t work as a condition weapon
• doesn’t work as a power weapon
• has no identity and it has no synergy with itself

The only thing decent about it was the block, and now that got its damage nerfed by 50% because the devs wanted to put Torment somewhere.

Simply look at Necromancer Scepter and then look at Mesmer Scepter. The Necromancer’s Scepter is viable; the Mesmer’s Scepter is not.

Well yes, but the trait is strong because of two factors:

1. It affects skills on all our weapons + some of our utility skills.
2. It reduces the CD of non-generating-only effects because those happen to also create a Clone.

Is it unfair we were balanced around having that trait, beforehand? Well, sure.
But the trait is powerful not because of it’s individual effect on one individual skill, but because of how much it affects and how this makes it such an always-useful-for-every-build trait.

And yes ofc, the abilities individually … actually, come to think of it, I see a bigger issue on a more conceptual level: I have abilities which I would be ok with as an ability but which are too slow to recover as a clone generator.
That’s still ignoring that for shatters, my clones are generated (to a large amount) by dodging, something which isn’t related to my ability-based clone generation in the first place.

In other words, I’d prefer they’d go back and take a very macro look at clone-generation vs shatter-usage as a whole, especially for non-shatter builds (class mechanic and all that, it should be quite useful for a pure Phantasm build, too).

Carighan.6758:

In other words, I’d prefer they’d go back and take a very macro look at clone-generation vs shatter-usage as a whole, especially for non-shatter builds (class mechanic and all that, it should be quite useful for a pure Phantasm build, too).

THIS^

But truth be told. IC really does belong as a grandmaster, since it affected EVERY illusion generating skill in every line/weapon.

We can only hope, that ANet will now go back and adjust our OTHER grandmaster traits and make them as equally appealing. (fingers crossed)

And so many other changes like making all shatters the same cooldown? (Why are they different?) This is would help in build diversity/trait usage. For Example, if Distortion was on a lower cooldown, Masterful Reflection would become more appealing. If Diversion was lower, more application of Confounding Suggestions. etc.

Let my Mesmer be a Mesmer. Not a shatter/mindwrack/damage spike.

Moving celerity to 25: IMO this should not affect weapon skills and its plainly obvious to anyone who pays attention to this game that the ‘rule of thumb’ on traits like this is tbat all classes have an option to reduce 4 utility skills by % 20.

Now the problem I have with it is that IF maintaining phantasms is a desired option you are forced to invest 25 in line which has limited non-shatter major traits, a minor and master trait that are shatter-centric, and devotion to condition specs which the defender and……other guy do not specifically favor.

The sceptre change is a nice one. It has become clear to me that scepter 1 needs to be a multi-target attack. Scepter is the only weapon we posses that does not have a multi-target attack. I imagine it should be a bounce attack as that seems to be the theme of the class. With the new scepter trait you can achieve 1900+ con damage in spvp. It doesn’t blow yoh away but its servicable and I imagine with tweaking and practice could turn into something.

Moving the confusion on shatter to 5 was a nice change. This changes a ‘true’ shatter spec immensely, providing many options. Considering the consensus on confusion however its likely an unrealized nice change.

The condition on interrupt is not worthy of GM to me. I attempted to realize its full potential last night by going 20-20-30 s/p s/f soldiers and beserkers. I did not experience a noticable change in keeping up with my target, or at least I wasn’t impressed. I feel if this trait is to ‘work’ it is going to be in a support build, and thats only if there is no internal cooldown to hamper multi-target cc’ing.

As a sidenote I tried shattering but perhaps it would work better with sig of illusions and just keeping your clones out to stack invule (cripple too?). Perhaps more testing on that one

Gaining more buff through PU is great for living but what else? I was chasing a ranger around in a pub and couldn’t melt her with 3 staff clones and elasticity. So if I have the abilty to stack buffs where am I killing people? I’m not tanking points because I’m always invis and staff 2 will constantly throw me off point. I don’t think this will turn out to be great in spvp outside of a power or group-confusion shatter build. Perhaps a 10-20-30-0-10 phantasm build with the two invis’ s and sig of illusions.

400 toughness while casting a mantra may be really nice i’m eager to test it.

Less health on phantasms: lets just wait and see. Perhaps it’s tricky to balance 4 sources of retal from one profession? Not sure about that being a feature though, didn’t make me into a god when I tried it, but then thats outside of what I normally do as a mesmer.

I’m sure mesmers are just fine. Not sure why everyone gets so emotional.

LiuliRenai.3928:

Ayrilana.1396:

A trait that deals directly with illusions that shouldn’t be in the illusion section… Hmmm…

You have really missed the point. Build diversity > flavor text fluff.

The problem is that the Illusions tree offers the passive bonuses to +condition damage and -shatter recharge, making the whole tree only beneficial to two builds, one of which (condition build) is very weak. That is a huge stat loss to invest in for non-shatter builds for a trait that until the patch was considered a requirement for every Mesmer build.

But why did you need IC in the first place?

Illusionists Celerity has been one of, if not the, most powerful Adept Minor traits in the game. It’s easily as powerful as any Adept Major trait, and many people have long expected it to be nerfed or promoted.

If you look at that minor Adept trait, pre-patch, it’s better than most of the Grandmaster Adept traits. Thank God they didn’t tough Critical Infusion, or we’d really be screwed…

Now, that out of the way, I agree with most of Prometheus’ post.

However, it’s not all doom and gloom as he says. Condition mesmers got a nice little buff with scepter and Prismatic Understanding. Also, the speed movement buff is great -

I agree 100% with the thread opener.

I am playing the Mesmer as my main char since Beta and I am devastated by those quite pointless changes, most of them being more of a nerf and the “new options” mainly being bug fixes.

First of all I was thinking, how nice, we are a total bug class, but at least we are getting a new condition to check out – then I noticed this is bound to the scepter 2 reactive skill…something that is close to impossible to use in e.g. WvWvW – I have tried for 3 hours to see it just ONCE and it never happened.
Logging to my necro got me to see it instantly right after I had skill 5.
So big disapppointment there and pretty much designed to go to the garbage can right away.

I am extremely sad to have put so much effort and love into my char, numerous exotic gear sets and everything nice – just to think about, if I should can it now.

PLEASE rethink what you are doing to a class that started out so well. Every game has warriors, thieves, mages…they are pretty much all the same and therefore a little boring….the mesmer was something special…don’t destroy it.

Carighan.6758:

Bloodgruve.6038:

Build diversity? Every build now has 25 fewer points to work with because of the Illusionists Celerity change. All has been said already. My Mesmer is sidelined until something else is done.

Blood~

Or you simply play without that trait. It’s not necessary, and builds work mighty fine without it. Ofc it’s a very strong trait, but hey, that’s why it’s 25 deep into one tree.

Get off that horse dude, seriously. There’s more people around these forums with design or development experience than just you.

For situations like IC, there are two correct ways and one incorrect way to address them. Did it need to be addressed? Yes. Did ANet address it in the worst possible way that they could have? Also yes.

Correct way the first is if the trait is (nearly) universally taken, then absorb it into the base numbers and put something different in its place that makes for an actual choice. Correct way the second is to restrict access, but apply countervailing buffs to affected skills, or other traits which affect said skills, so that specs which lose access will remain at the same overall power level. There were many buffs in the patch, but none aimed at counteracting the effect of losing IC.

The incorrect way is to restrict access with no countervailing buffs, as that has the effect of a significant classwide nerf to all specs other than those which retain access.

Unless you’re trying to argue the position that virtually all mesmer specs other than IP Shatter were that overpowered and in need of a significant nerf (and good luck doing that without becoming the laughingstock of this forum), ANet screwed up big time on IC, no matter how you slice it.

Further, I would like to note that the IC change was not in the leaked set of patch notes which now appear to be from a late beta version. This means that the IC change was likely made at the last minute and likely poorly thought through.

thatmaskedman.4508:

Get off that horse dude, seriously. There’s more people around these forums with design or development experience than just you.

Don’t you think this is a little ironic as ANet employees most likely have much more design and dev experience than you, (and most people on the forums) yet you question and tell them they are wrong? Carighan is right in the quote you have there… I think it’s you who might have to step off the horse and realize that mesmers are far from dead and are still extremely strong. IC being moved to GM is hardly the end of the world.

osif.8673:

thatmaskedman.4508:

Get off that horse dude, seriously. There’s more people around these forums with design or development experience than just you.

Don’t you think this is a little ironic as ANet employees most likely have much more design and dev experience than you, (and most people on the forums) yet you question and tell them they are wrong? Carighan is right in the quote you have there… I think it’s you who might have to step off the horse and realize that mesmers are far from dead and are still extremely strong. IC being moved to GM is hardly the end of the world.

It’s not the end of the world, but the analysis is spot on. The movement of IC is a de facto nerf to any non-shatter build. This is caused by the fact that it was a baseline requirement for almost any mesmer build to be properly effective.

The trait is too strong to be an adept minor. It’s also too strong to be a grandmaster minor. It shouldn’t exist. When a trait like that becomes so necessary that every build takes it, it is now a baseline part of the class and not actually a build option. Being a baseline part of the class and not actually a build option, moving it simply is a nerf to that entire class. A proper solution would be to remove the trait entirely, change the cooldowns to absorb that baseline effect, and put something else that is balanced in its place.

It should exist to the extent of it applying to only utility skills.

Now let’s all be honest ! This update/patch/balance for mesmer was : Bug fix + nerf ! No new builds viable ( less viable tbh ) no nothing , this update/patch adds 1 more to the line of nerfing to the ground to mesmer ability ! I want to see the devs or the testers make a video of a mesmer pvping vs a good guardian or ranger to see a flawless victory !

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s not the end of the world, but the analysis is spot on. The movement of IC is a de facto nerf to any non-shatter build. This is caused by the fact that it was a baseline requirement for almost any mesmer build to be properly effective.

The trait is too strong to be an adept minor. It’s also too strong to be a grandmaster minor. It shouldn’t exist. When a trait like that becomes so necessary that every build takes it, it is now a baseline part of the class and not actually a build option. Being a baseline part of the class and not actually a build option, moving it simply is a nerf to that entire class. A proper solution would be to remove the trait entirely, change the cooldowns to absorb that baseline effect, and put something else that is balanced in its place.

I respectfully disagree. Shatter builds, which are clearly one of the focuses of the trait line, benefit most from IC. Faster clone output = higher rate of shatters. It is clearly in a good place now such that the majority of people picking it up are most likely shatter builds – which I think was probably ANet’s intention. Adding an innate IC across the board and replacing the minor trait with something new (I think that’s what you meant by “change the cooldowns to absorb that baseline effect?”) would be ridiculously over the top strong. The short CDs we had were verging on OP for only 5 trait points, how would shortening the CDs on all illusion spawning abilities and adding a new minor trait be fair?

I really think that ANet didn’t think it through that far.

There was no conversation that started “Why aren’t more people running shatter builds.”

Instead, I think the discussion was “IC is too powerful to be an adept minor trait, let’s move it up a bunch”

The impact of that move was probably not completely thought out.

TooBz.3065:

I really think that ANet didn’t think it through that far.

There was no conversation that started “Why aren’t more people running shatter builds.”

Instead, I think the discussion was “IC is too powerful to be an adept minor trait, let’s move it up a bunch”

The impact of that move was probably not completely thought out.

C’mon now, I know gamers are passionate and emotional when it comes to games, so being angry about a nerf that directly correlates to their fun is completely understandable. But let’s look at this from an objective standpoint. You really think that the game devs and designers didn’t discuss this, and every other decision they make for that matter, completely? This game is their livelihood. If they fail, they could be out a job. Look at what Bioware did to the SWTOR team. Look at what happened to 38 Studios. I’m not saying that game developers and designers always make the best choices, but I can guarantee you that they take every decision they make very seriously. In this case, I’m sure it wasn’t just:

One designer – “IC is too powerful to be an adept minor trait, let’s move it up a bunch.”
Another designer – “Good idea, done. Next?”

A most excellent post, Pyro. Well thought out, well executed, and expertly illustrating the conundrums of this update. Kudos.

Carighan.6758:

In other words, I’d prefer they’d go back and take a very macro look at clone-generation vs shatter-usage as a whole, especially for non-shatter builds (class mechanic and all that, it should be quite useful for a pure Phantasm build, too).

And this, I agree with completely.

We’ve seen the results of Arenanet attempting to create build diversity relying completely on the trait system. While the Mesmer community has certainly managed to craft some amazing creations, the balance implications have been severe: reactionary measures that go after builds dubbed “overpowered” with a sledgehammer. As long as things remain business as usual, we’re going to see similar approaches to balance like this most recent patch and the glamour/confusion update.

We would be much better served by taking a step back and asking some deeper questions.

Why can’t we decide which types of illusions we summon? Do we really benefit from everyone taking 1+ clone creators and exactly 1 phantasm per weapon set? Why do some clones deal damage, while others are worthless unless shattered? Do we really need so many phantasms that simply do basic damage, and if so, are weapon skills the best source for them? Has anyone considered a single unified illusion mechanic (where all clones deal an effect just like a staff clone and traits beef it up), or thought of allowing a wider variety of illusions such as phantom terrain or personal facades? Is the Walk-Up-And-Snuggle method for delivering shatters viable in all forms of content? And if not, why can’t we modify it? In addition, is the emphasis on illusions and shattering taking too many resources away from aspects such as glamors and mantras, thereby hindering some of the traditional Mesmer concepts?

And most importantly, why can’t we change our shatter bar? The idea that Mind Wrack is going to be useful for every single mesmer in every single build in every single form of content would be like giving Rangers the Animal Companion mechanic, but their only choice of pets were different species of Bears. For the love of Lyssa, if they’re trying to create build diversity, why can’t we decide what form of metamagic manipulates our illusions?

We’ve seen what happens when they try to create build diversity purely through the trait system. We’ve seen how much damage can be done when a sledgehammer is taken to our abilities in order to balance the complicated and convoluted interplay of different mechanics. Perhaps it’s time for the designers to step back and considering how well some of the core Mesmer mechanics are currently functioning.

I don’t know what I’ll add to this convo, but eh.

1.) I’d say the IC issue is twofold. First, Mesmer C/Ds are scaled to where IC became a nigh-mandatory skill. With that said, it’s not that they “nerfed” it, but more that they could have done it in a more efficient way.
-Example A: Alter Mesmer weapon skill C/Ds upward by 5-10%, make IC 5% addition.
It’d still be < what it was, but that might’ve worked out.

-Example B: Swap IC and IR. Yes, IC gave a LOT for its placement … but I’d argue from 5 >25 was a bit far. 15’d “punish” a build for grabbing the Trait, but not be as crazy.

(Hell, popping it to 20 even, would have been interesting. IE or IC? Or, do you want PH? This would have definately added “build diversity” while knocking down some of the class’ “OPness.”)

2. ItV: Seriously, with the known amount of skill lag in this game … BAD IDEA. And all because some folk can’t see a huge glowing purple line in front of ’em? Get outta Dodge – that verges on Blinding Befuddlement nerf levels of silly.

3. Blurred Frenzy: The problem there is a combo of crap MH weapon choices, and the ability’s C/D. So why raise the C/D and nerf the effect? Wouldn’t one or the other have sufficed, especially when Mesmer is a class that promotes “active” defense over “passive?” Seems the invulns/teleports are ways to mitigate incoming damage, I would say.

As for the buffs?
1.) The reshuffling of interrupt traits and PU’s buffing are desirable, tbh. However, I agree with the others who have mentioned that Mesmer access to Interrupts is a bit
random. Perhaps this’ll change in a later patch?

2.) Additional Malice on Scepter? Silly Devs, you know Staff is the main Condi-mesmer weapon. Why does Chaotic Dampening add no Malice, then? I’d bleeding well drop that lil dollop of Toughness for more Malice, TYVM. As it is, Scepter is pretty darned lame, and we know it. I can say the same for adding Torment to Scepter – this is not making the weapon “viable.”

3. IZerker/Bounce logic: I can’t complain, especially when one considers how much code goes into a game like this, sometimes crap breaks. However, the length of time IZerker took to get fixed + the fact that it being broken was denied for bleeding months, is a arguably a tad rude.

In closing, it’s just the idea of so many things being “nerfed” in a 2-3 month period – things that define entire class playstyles – that stings so blasted much. I’m all for
diversity, but diversity should enhance a class’ inherent style … not bring it down
notches.

osif.8673:

TooBz.3065:

I really think that ANet didn’t think it through that far.

There was no conversation that started “Why aren’t more people running shatter builds.”

Instead, I think the discussion was “IC is too powerful to be an adept minor trait, let’s move it up a bunch”

The impact of that move was probably not completely thought out.

C’mon now, I know gamers are passionate and emotional when it comes to games, so being angry about a nerf that directly correlates to their fun is completely understandable. But let’s look at this from an objective standpoint. You really think that the game devs and designers didn’t discuss this, and every other decision they make for that matter, completely? This game is their livelihood. If they fail, they could be out a job. Look at what Bioware did to the SWTOR team. Look at what happened to 38 Studios. I’m not saying that game developers and designers always make the best choices, but I can guarantee you that they take every decision they make very seriously. In this case, I’m sure it wasn’t just:

One designer – “IC is too powerful to be an adept minor trait, let’s move it up a bunch.”
Another designer – “Good idea, done. Next?”

No, and I’m sure they take it very seriously. But I do think it’s more likely that the discussion started with “IC is too powerful” than that it started with “how do we get more people to play shatter mesmers”

But the consequence of more people moving to a shatter build may not have occurred to them. And frankly, I don’t think that will happen.

osif.8673:

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s not the end of the world, but the analysis is spot on. The movement of IC is a de facto nerf to any non-shatter build. This is caused by the fact that it was a baseline requirement for almost any mesmer build to be properly effective.

The trait is too strong to be an adept minor. It’s also too strong to be a grandmaster minor. It shouldn’t exist. When a trait like that becomes so necessary that every build takes it, it is now a baseline part of the class and not actually a build option. Being a baseline part of the class and not actually a build option, moving it simply is a nerf to that entire class. A proper solution would be to remove the trait entirely, change the cooldowns to absorb that baseline effect, and put something else that is balanced in its place.

I respectfully disagree. Shatter builds, which are clearly one of the focuses of the trait line, benefit most from IC. Faster clone output = higher rate of shatters. It is clearly in a good place now such that the majority of people picking it up are most likely shatter builds – which I think was probably ANet’s intention. Adding an innate IC across the board and replacing the minor trait with something new (I think that’s what you meant by “change the cooldowns to absorb that baseline effect?”) would be ridiculously over the top strong. The short CDs we had were verging on OP for only 5 trait points, how would shortening the CDs on all illusion spawning abilities and adding a new minor trait be fair?

Shatter builds most certainly don’t benefit the most from IC. They benefit just about the same as any other build mesmers have. Pure clone generation is only part of what IC does. It also affects phantasm cooldowns, and then all of the skills that generate clones have strong utility. IC is anything but a shatter build trait, it is a mesmer trait.

The reason behind removing IC and adding it innately into CDs across the board is because that is how it was. At the 5 point minor position it is, for all intents and purposes, an innate cooldown bonus. All mesmer builds took it because without it most builds are significantly slower and clunkier. Since it was an innate bonus, removing that bonus is a straight nerf to all non-shatter builds. Being an innate bonus, to actually promote build diversity the trait should have been made truly innate, the trait removed, and something else put there.

If, then, after the cooldown bonus had been absorbed into the skills, it was determined that this was overpowered or needed adjustments in some way, then the skills or builds that specifically needed those adjustments could get them. That way only the problems could be addressed without doing a broad spectrum nerf.

If, on the other hand, you feel that all non-shatter builds needed a 25% cooldown increase on roughly half of their toolkit, then that is an entirely different argument, and not one the devs or anyone else seems inclined to make, and wisely.

kitten es me off that even the [Decoy] skill recharge got nerfed for non shatter\condition builds since IC is now 20 extra skill points. Anet needs to understand that IC is integral to every single mesmer build, not just shatter\condition builds. As a power\precision build, I always made room for 5 points into illusions for the lowered cool-down, waisting 25 points just destroys any other possible build so instead all related skills now take 20% extra time to recharge. Very disappointed in this across the board nerf to mesmer.

TooBz.3065:

No, and I’m sure they take it very seriously. But I do think it’s more likely that the discussion started with “IC is too powerful” than that it started with “how do we get more people to play shatter mesmers”

I think you could be right that it started off as IC being too powerful. But from a design standpoint, I could definitely see it being started more as “What role do we want IC to play, what do we want it to be?” I never said it started as them trying to make more people play shatter.

TooBz.3065:

But the consequence of more people moving to a shatter build may not have occurred to them. And frankly, I don’t think that will happen.

Some will go to shatter. Tons will try out PU. Tons will pick the GS back up and go phantasms. I think it’s pretty clear that there’s more than just shatter still.

Due to the strength of IC, as I scan down the Illusions line, honestly it feels right in grandmaster now. Who could argue that that IC is the most powerful of the minor traits in Illusions (I’m sure there are some). But if this is such a powerful and class defining trait, I believe Pyro’s points are well made there and I would encourage you to include that little blurb about the “built-in bonus” into your OP so the devs can (hopefully) see it. That, to me is the real kicker behind this nerf.

Personally I don’t like the nerf but at the same time I can’t say I disagree with Anet’s decision. I just wish they would have solved the “IC problem” in a different way.

I think it would have been better if they have reduced the cooldown on all of the clone traits by say… 10% and reduced the effectiveness of IC to 10%.

That way it wouldn’t a) be so powerful and b) really really hurt the non-shatter mesmers.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Shatter builds most certainly don’t benefit the most from IC. They benefit just about the same as any other build mesmers have. Pure clone generation is only part of what IC does. It also affects phantasm cooldowns, and then all of the skills that generate clones have strong utility. IC is anything but a shatter build trait, it is a mesmer trait.

The reason behind removing IC and adding it innately into CDs across the board is because that is how it was. At the 5 point minor position it is, for all intents and purposes, an innate cooldown bonus. All mesmer builds took it because without it most builds are significantly slower and clunkier. Since it was an innate bonus, removing that bonus is a straight nerf to all non-shatter builds. Being an innate bonus, to actually promote build diversity the trait should have been made truly innate, the trait removed, and something else put there.

If, then, after the cooldown bonus had been absorbed into the skills, it was determined that this was overpowered or needed adjustments in some way, then the skills or builds that specifically needed those adjustments could get them. That way only the problems could be addressed without doing a broad spectrum nerf.

If, on the other hand, you feel that all non-shatter builds needed a 25% cooldown increase on roughly half of their toolkit, then that is an entirely different argument, and not one the devs or anyone else seems inclined to make, and wisely.

I may have worded my point poorly, as I know faster phantasm output was very nice for phantasm builds. My point was that how the trait is designed, and which tree it is in, shows that it is meant to help shatter mesmers produce clones and shatter more efficiently in my eyes. This change, which didn’t effect shatter mesmers in anyway, just reconfirms it for me.
The fact is, as a 5 point trait, it was effectively giving players an extra weapon training, for every 2-3 out of 5 skills on their bar, for every weapon set and some utilities. 5 points! you admitted that it was too strong for adept, so how would it not be too strong as an innate application? So we can just skip over that part and look at what skills and builds need adjustments. Personally, I think we are in a pretty good place now. More people will be picking up torch because of the PU buff, although the mage is still lacking. They’re slowly lifting scepter up. I think they’re making changes in the right direction.
Now does this patch promote build diversity? Maybe not. But I also don’t think it limits us into a x/x/x/x/25 build in the slightest. It’s also evident that there are plenty of different builds out there being used post-patch.

@osif: If that trait only affected a few utilities, then you might be correct. The fact of the matter is, however, it affects a massive number of skills across all builds. Leap, phase retreat, mirror blade, all phantasms, all of these are utility/damaging/w.e skills that have no inherent ties to shatter builds. I see the point you are trying to make, but the premise you use is unfortunately factually inaccurate.

Also lets not forget that some of the skills on weapons are not affected by the traits specific to that weapon (malicious sorcery STILL does not reduce the cooldown of illusionary counter.) So it makes it that a 20 point trait for the scepter lowers the cooldown on ONE skill and does nothing for the other skills. I would be more okay with this nerf if all the skills on weapons worked with their respective traits. Right now they don’t.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@osif: If that trait only affected a few utilities, then you might be correct. The fact of the matter is, however, it affects a massive number of skills across all builds. Leap, phase retreat, mirror blade, all phantasms, all of these are utility/damaging/w.e skills that have no inherent ties to shatter builds. I see the point you are trying to make, but the premise you use is unfortunately factually inaccurate.

I don’t see what the accuracy of my premise has to do with the overall picture… I was just trying to explain what I think was the reasoning behind the trait move, which is apparent we disagree on if you think it is factually inaccurate. I don’t think it was a casual “Phantasms are strong, let’s move IC further up the tree to nerf phantasm speccs” which seems to be roughly what you think based on some of your posts… and as you pointed out it didn’t really do too much to phantasm strength. To simply sum up my points though:
*Diversity is not gone.
*These were steps moving in the right direction for balance, even though things can always be done better.
*Making IC globally inherited by the abilities it effects and replacing the trait with something new would be a step in the wrong direction for balance.
*I think I had one more but I forget. =P

osif.8673:

• These were steps moving in the right direction for balance, even though things can always be done better.
• Making IC globally inherited by the abilities it effects and replacing the trait with something new would be a step in the wrong direction for balance.

Protip: A space is needed between the * or the # in order to make bulleted lists or numbered lists.

Those are the two points that I strongly disagree with. As I explained, due to the position and power of the trait, it was not so much a trait choice as it was a permanent, basic boost to mesmer builds. Because of that situation, the move is a de facto nerf to all non-shatter builds, not a step towards balance.

Pyroatheist.9031:

osif.8673:

• These were steps moving in the right direction for balance, even though things can always be done better.
• Making IC globally inherited by the abilities it effects and replacing the trait with something new would be a step in the wrong direction for balance.

Protip: A space is needed between the * or the # in order to make bulleted lists or numbered lists.

Those are the two points that I strongly disagree with. As I explained, due to the position and power of the trait, it was not so much a trait choice as it was a permanent, basic boost to mesmer builds. Because of that situation, the move is a de facto nerf to all non-shatter builds, not a step towards balance.

Thank you for the protip.
You obviously can’t see the other side of the argument with this one. I don’t know if it’s anger in the change, if you’re just stubborn, or just want mesmers to be above the rest. I’ll just leave it at us disagreeing, as we have both expressed our opinions and the argument is exhausted.

osif.8673:

You obviously can’t see the other side of the argument with this one. I don’t know if it’s anger in the change, if you’re just stubborn, or just want mesmers to be above the rest. I’ll just leave it at us disagreeing, as we have both expressed our opinions and the argument is exhausted.

Here’s the thing. Moving IC simply is a broad spectrum nerf to any build that can’t run 25 points into illusions. That is not how balance is done. Additionally, the existence of IC makes that sort of thing impossible to balance.

Instead, IC should have been absorbed into the base cooldowns and the trait removed. Once that is accomplished, then another pass can be done on each individual cooldown affected by the skill in order to properly balance them.