Guild Wars 2

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Soo much love and dedication toward mesmer.

They look sweet, although Hypochondria seems somewhat powerful with no tell (remember why TC got the 1s cooldown?). It could potentially just be a downtick on the enemy bar (say 5s after you cast it, or it would have a big windup) so they know they’re about to get hit hard and can prepare a condition removal (which you should have gotten them to waste earlier).

Also, if these were to ever happen the complains other professions would have would be endless unless they got similar flexibility treatment.

My whole philosophy behind why I love GW2 isn’t because it’s a great game; it’s because it has so much potential. All this time, I was stuck in my idea of allowing weapon skills to act like utility skills so you can select your weapon skills, but your idea actually utilizes the class mechanic so I don’t just sit there with 3-4 shatters primed and… well… primed.

All of these ideas are so… unique. It makes it feel like GW1 again (although that’s partially because of the GW1 icons, but still…)

I like these ideas a lot. You want to make Mesmer feel unique and you are definitely doing that haha. I wouldn’t mind having some gw1 skills back though for the control aspect part of mes

this looks like so much fun to play :O

Great ideas. I really like some of those traits like “A touch of guile” and “persistance of memory” which would help in zerging. And some of those f1-f4 skills! Phantom pane seems so awesome and all the facades (i can’t pick just one)! I want to play this!!

only able to briefly skim through it here but it looks like you did a fair amount of work on this.

Some good ideas in there that Anet could have maybe used 4 years ago when they were still hammering out classes but idk how much they can do with them these days.

While i cant comment specifically on any one thing in there, i will ask if you considered all or any of this against the limitations of the Core combat and its various add ons. also against the balance and limitations of the other classes.

As badly as the game probably needs it, Anet, or any company/dev does not ever want to admit or fold to the fact that they should/need to go back to the drawing board and start from scratch. They, in this case, would rather focus and expand on the LS sector and hope it distracts the players enough and keeps them interested and in game. its easier and more cost efficient from a business stand point to do this rather than rehash and rebuild good will from players and renew interest from the hardcore crowd.

not saying you should give up, just don’t expect this to reach the old men at the round table at NCSoft who control the money hose.

Good write up and suggestions.

I can’t give too much detailed opinion right now – posting from phone.

While I do agree with customisable profession mechanic (all classes should have their own customisation), I’m not sure for direct damage shatter builds that the method of illusion summoning is fluid enough in your model.

I think while you have fantastic ideas on restructuring the class mechanic, you haven’t expands these idea to weapons as well. Meaning you should also be able to choose which weapon skills you want – whether to have clone summoning skills on weapons, phantasm skills, or even traited illusion summons (ie, deceptive evasion). I think all players should have the choice between:
- illusion or non-illusion focused class mechanic
- illusion or non-illusion focused weapon skills

Yes this implies the need for alternate, swappable #1 to #5 skills.

Anyway, to briefly sum up – I think it’s a great idea, definitely needs refinement and perhaps reduction in scope (concentrate on the few core builds being catered to before adding half a dozen new mechanics -ie facades).

You Sir…Deserve a spot on the dev team…I hope a dev takes note of this post and grabs some ideas from it.

Amazing idea, +1

I’m crying because of 2 reasons:

• it’s a great idea and beautiful to read
• it’s never gonna happen

Yeah, but even this is an awesome idea it’ll never happens.

When devs started developing gw2, they stated they wanted a more simplified profession/skill/trait game. Gw1 was fulled with tons of skills, which made the game pretty messy when balance patchs were coming. And that’s why gw2 has so much less skills per profession.

I don’t see them adding 20 new skills for a single profession…

I think to simplify this idea a lot could allow the possibility of something good being introduced, not only for Mesmer, but for all classes.

If I could state the bare minimum that should both allow for better build synergy and also work within the current game balance:

1. Class mechanic skills remain bound to illusions as a resource.

2. Two sets of class mechanic skills
- four shatters, as we have now
- four illusion buffing skills (for builds focused on not shattering)

3. All weapon and utility skills remain the same.

That would be a start and should also be practical, rather than redesigning the entire class – which may not be possible for years, if ever.

For large group fights, the simplest thing would be to buff glamours again.

Anyway, not trying to dismiss the incredible amount of thought and effort put into the OP, because I think it is fantastic. However judging by class changes over the last two years, it is more practical/realistic to introduce one or two base change ideas and go from there, step by step.
:)

Wow, simply amazing.
OP’s ideas alone can make a new game, just saying.
GW2 expansion: Rise of the mesmers.

Swish.2463:

Some good ideas in there that Anet could have maybe used 4 years ago when they were still hammering out classes but idk how much they can do with them these days.

While i cant comment specifically on any one thing in there, i will ask if you considered all or any of this against the limitations of the Core combat and its various add ons. also against the balance and limitations of the other classes.

Aye, I’m sure this post has about as much chance of being integrated into the game as an all-Mesmer team competing in the tournament. But in the face of all the discord and discontent, I thought I’d go for the constructive criticism route. I appreciate your constructive criticism and indulgence towards this rambling idea.

And I did consider the limitations, actually. With one single exception, everything on my list of illusion mechanics is based upon something that the Mesmer is already supposed to do, or abilities that are already in the game. Phantasms are exactly the same theme as we have now, but with a little more focus on acting like hexes. Shatters are hopefully sufficient to have the shatter concept thrive after the transition. Facades are a reimagining of the “effect on clone death” builds that are possible only through traits, and the Mirages were born from the utility illusions already in our kitten nal.

The only thing that is really new would be Facades combined with A Touch Of Guile as a dedicated Zerg-buster mechanic. Since the Mesmer desperately needed one, it seemed like a reasonable way to go.

Curunen.8729:

I think while you have fantastic ideas on restructuring the class mechanic, you haven’t expands these idea to weapons as well. Meaning you should also be able to choose which weapon skills you want – whether to have clone summoning skills on weapons, phantasm skills, or even traited illusion summons (ie, deceptive evasion). I think all players should have the choice between:
- illusion or non-illusion focused class mechanic
- illusion or non-illusion focused weapon skills

Actually, under the system I propose, there wouldn’t be a single illusion summon on any Mesmer weapons. By consolidating the mechanic to the F1-F4 keys, the weapon bars are freed from their “one clone, one phantasm” obligation and can do a better job providing different playstyles.

The reason they put illusions on our weapon bars was because in days long past, we needed one skill slot for one effect. That was before sequence skills were integrated into the system beyond auto attacks (for example, Hornet’s Sting didn’t have a second skill in the early betas, and counterattack skills didn’t have their breakout ability either). If Shatter skills can sequence, their fuel source can be located on the same real estate as their big finish.

Ansau.7326:

When devs started developing gw2, they stated they wanted a more simplified profession/skill/trait game. Gw1 was fulled with tons of skills, which made the game pretty messy when balance patchs were coming. And that’s why gw2 has so much less skills per profession.

I don’t see them adding 20 new skills for a single profession…

The elementalist has sixty weapon skills. We have twenty four.

The engineer has twenty five class mechanic skills, not counting the ones for racial abilities. We got four.

Mesmers were never given the love and devotion they needed to flesh out multiple playstyles. Instead, we were tossed a half-baked mechanic bar that didn’t even fit multiple builds and told to make it work. I’m not asking for an expansion. I’m asking for the class to be given the effort it deserves. And if that means a few other classes like the Necromancer complain about their underdeveloped main mechanics…that’s a good thing. Because the current distribution simply isn’t fair.

Shriketalon.1937:

And if that means a few other classes like the Necromancer complain about their underdeveloped main mechanics…that’s a good thing. Because the current distribution simply isn’t fair.

Just wanted to say I agree with everything up to the last sentence. Well, I probably agree even with that. But I don’t think it matters—I don’t think we need to bring fairness into it (which is a good thing, because then people start arguing about what’s deserved and what Anet owes and what’s really fair and blah blah). All that matters, I think, is that the game could be better than it is for some professions, and as you point out, they’ve already displayed a willingness to use more skills to give professions more options.

I think a lot of these ideas were thrown around by players during development, as the Mesmer was always a unique/interesting character in the MMO landscape, and had a pretty devoted playerbase. My main in GW1 was of course a Mesmer.

As others have stated though, the likelihood of a full re-work such as this is close to nil, for two reasons, first that it would take quite a bit of time to program (money) and second, and probably more importantly it would set a precedent that ANet would have to follow for all the professions. Imagine how the versatility, customization and to be honest, awesomeness of your collated ideas would make Warriors feel, with their extremely simplistic Adrenaline mechanic!

Shriketalon.1937:

Ansau.7326:

When devs started developing gw2, they stated they wanted a more simplified profession/skill/trait game. Gw1 was fulled with tons of skills, which made the game pretty messy when balance patchs were coming. And that’s why gw2 has so much less skills per profession.

I don’t see them adding 20 new skills for a single profession…

The elementalist has sixty weapon skills. We have twenty four.

The engineer has twenty five class mechanic skills, not counting the ones for racial abilities. We got four.

You say nothing with this. First, just because other professions have more skills than mesmer, doesn’t mean we have to receive a ton while others don’t. What they won’t do is just add skills for mesmers, just like they did with the new healing skills and GM traits.

Then, GW2 has like the same amount of skills Prophecies had, around 400. But GW1 problems started after Factions, when they nearly doubled the amount of skills, plus 2 more professions. With Nightfall, every balance patch they had to deal with +1000 skills.

Ansau.7326:

Shriketalon.1937:

The elementalist has sixty weapon skills. We have twenty four.

The engineer has twenty five class mechanic skills, not counting the ones for racial abilities. We got four.

You say nothing with this. First, just because other professions have more skills than mesmer, doesn’t mean we have to receive a ton while others don’t. What they won’t do is just add skills for mesmers, just like they did with the new healing skills and GM traits.

I was specifically addressing your statement that adding 20 skills to a profession is extreme. In particular, I was pointing out that adding skills to certain professions is different than adding them to others, because not all professions were created equal.

For a parallel, consider weapons. Warriors have four two handed options, three mainhand weapons, and five choices for offhands. Necromancers have one twohanded, and three mainhand and offhand choices. The Warrior’s weapon skill selection vastly eclipses the Necromancer’s choices. If a hypothetical update added four weapons for the Necro and only one for the Warrior….the Warrior doesn’t have much grounds to complain. They would still have more weapon options than the Necromancer, because the two professions were not equal out of the gate.

The Mesmer class mechanic is severely underdeveloped. Without the freedom to choose which skills we want, the Mesmer is choked by numerous required skills designed for vastly different playstyles without enough trait points to make them all viable. Conversely, several other class mechanics were designed through enormous skill lists to allow those professions to have their main mechanic support any given playstyle. The two methods are simply not equivalent, and helping one is not the same as boosting the other.

If there is to be an expansion, upgrade, or improvement to the weapon, utility, elite, and class mechanic skill selection across all professions in the next five years (and if there isn’t….that would be incredibly sad), it should include a long, hard look at underdeveloped mechanics and playstyles that just don’t have the skill selection necessary to accomplish their mission. Especially when it comes to professions that are underperforming across the board and simply can’t keep up in multiple avenues of play.

As I said once before, these are a lot of beautiful, well thought-out ideas. Unfortunately, they have as much chance of ever being integrated into this game ever, in any expansion or otherwise, as I do of joining the dev team.

Have to agree with everyone else here. Regardless of whether anet is likely to use any of these or not. These are very nicely thought out. Yes it is something that the Mesmer class needs right now to return it to its full glory.

Development team should definitely take note. For a squishy class like the Mesmer, control of our own abilities is absolutely necessary.

Awesome! Except it’ll never happen cuz lazy/busy/uninterested due to self gratification.

Man. I frigging wish those ideas could get imp’d.

This is how they should have done mesmer from the start. Shatter skills always felt forced.

Please ArenaNet.

Really impressively put together. Bump.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!!!!! I WANT IT!!!!!

I agree on the general idea, posted it myself often enough.
Shatter is not an independent mechanic. As such, it should not be the class mechanic. It automatically forces a use of a different mechanic (Illusions) which are in themselves independent. As such, as you say, why aren’t those the class mechanic and Shatter just a type of skill on say, the weapon?

I would not remotely make it as complex and as sweeping as you do though, OP.
The reason is that such full-on-class-changes are very very unlikely. My slimmed down proposal would be:

• Change the F-skills to summon Clones/Phantasms.
• F1 summons three clones wielding your current weapon loadout. 20 seconds cooldown, instant.
• F2 summons a Phantasm wielding a weapon depending on your current 2H or offhand weapon. 30s cooldown, 0,75s cast.
• F3 summons a Phantasmal Defender and one Clone looking like it. 30s CD, 1s cast.
• F4 summons a Phantasmal Disenchanter and one Clone looking like it. 30s CD, 1s cast.
• Clones have very high health, but do absolutely nothing. No conditions, no secondary effects, they just attack, but are very difficult to kill even if focused.
• Phantasms are still kinda frail, but their secondary effects should be buffed.
• Weapon skills are replaced with shatter-like skills which use up 1 Clone or (if absent) 1 Phantasm) to power a specific effect. Example Torch, 5-skill changed to Backfire, destroy 1 Clone/Phantasm to shroud yourself in energy for 2 seconds. Any attack hitting you causes stacking Confusion to the attacker for 5 seconds.
• These illusion-using skills do not have any cooldown. They are powered by the illusions. However, if they destroy a Phantasm they also deal direct damage but then trigger a 20s CD.
• Phantasms are no longer protected from being overwritten by clones (this is necessary to give full control).

In short, swap Shatter onto the weapons and Illusions onto the class mechanic bar. Done.

Ansau.7326:

Yeah, but even this is an awesome idea it’ll never happens.

When devs started developing gw2, they stated they wanted a more simplified profession/skill/trait game. Gw1 was fulled with tons of skills, which made the game pretty messy when balance patchs were coming. And that’s why gw2 has so much less skills per profession.

I don’t see them adding 20 new skills for a single profession…

In principle, I don’t think it would upset their ideal to have one profession that has a greater deal of customisability (and thus room for the player to customise something that’s just plain bad) – and the mesmer, a profession that traditionally required a bit more care to tailor your skillbar to your expected opposition than most and as a result generally attracted more players that liked that sort of thing, is probably a good candidate to be that profession.

One Note Chord.5031:

Shriketalon.1937:

And if that means a few other classes like the Necromancer complain about their underdeveloped main mechanics…that’s a good thing. Because the current distribution simply isn’t fair.

Just wanted to say I agree with everything up to the last sentence. Well, I probably agree even with that. But I don’t think it matters—I don’t think we need to bring fairness into it (which is a good thing, because then people start arguing about what’s deserved and what Anet owes and what’s really fair and blah blah). All that matters, I think, is that the game could be better than it is for some professions, and as you point out, they’ve already displayed a willingness to use more skills to give professions more options.

This looks to me like you’re agreeing in principle and disagreeing on the wording. Shrike’s intent, I think, was to point out that some professions are distinctly have-nots compared to others – if one have-not being buffed leads to another being buffed until we don’t have any have-nots any more, this is a good thing.

Looks amazingly well tought. I /bow to your effort.

This is really good! Very nice suggestions!!!

fascinating. gets a bump from me.

While I don’t have much faith anet will take any suggestions seriously, this is a really good idea dude! +1

Wow great work from you
Hope the devs get some “Inspiration” from you

I like the idea’s a lot. Personally I’m backing up the whole, shatters are not our dependent mechanic, and changing our f-skills will only reinforce that principle (plus it does make sense and will enhance the class just that extra mile to keep the players happy).

Would absolutly give me something to sing about. Candy. Yes please!!!!!
_________________________________________
As always, your dancing Buffy Bot.
—“don’t give me songs … give me something to sing about. Plezzzz, I need something to sing about”

This looks amazing!

Am I the only one that thinks it’s way too complex and thus way too unfair for others class mechanics? A lesser version of this is the engi’s toolbelt.

I really like your ideas and I wish Anet had even some of them in mind when they were designing the class, or some similar ideas when they were making other classes as well…
But I think we will never see anything like this in GW2. The game has so much potential but Anet just…ignores it and refuses to act on it…

But again nice work man!!!! (I also loved your gw1 connections :-) )

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Am I the only one that thinks it’s way too complex and thus way too unfair for others class mechanics? A lesser version of this is the engi’s toolbelt.

I agree with this being way too complex and “unfair” to other classes. It’s also too far out of the scope of a rework since the Devs seem set on not being able to swap individual weapon skills etc.

A current struggle that most mesmers have is that we often need to sacrifice a lot of damage for team utility or sacrifice a significant amount of sustain for spike dmg. AoE is dependent on illusions living and you haven’t changed that so wvw mesmers would still struggle. Looking at your proposed skills, I think a rework like this would actually make the problem worst as there are clear winners in damage and then clear winners in utility while still being shackled too much to illusions. Since most of our bugs are tied to illusions, I think giving mesmers more illusion would also make things worst.

The general idea of more utility illusions is nice and I think a lot of people have wanted that flavor from gw1 hexes. Buff the damage the mesmer can do without illusions. Then make all phantasms/clones more utility focused like sword clone for boon removal or warden for projectile negating/reflecting. Make traited torch standard for condi removal. Some of your utility ideas would fit well this sort of rework.

Alternatively, find inspiration from gw1 without tying them to illusions.
Backfire = Reflects
Power spike = halting strike
Shatter enchantment = a new trait that does dmg on boon removal >_>
Aneurysm = Recharge enemy skills but cause dmg for each second of skill recharged.
Ineptitude/clumsiness = a new trait that causes dmg when an enemy misses due to blind.

TLDR: That’s a lot of effort you put in but I cant support it because it’s too far out there and also too focused on illusions.

This was beautiful, and really channels what the Mesmer was in ages past and should be.
I could cry over the fact that a chang… overhaul like this would never happen.

As fantastically cool as these are, this would give Mesmers a ton more options than any other profession, including Elementalists. Given Guild Wars 2’s design philosophies, the amount of illusions and corresponding shatters would have to be stripped down quite a bit. That said, I like the idea of combining illusions and shatters into a two-step skill, rather than having them take up weapon skill slots.

(Moebius Strike is an amazingly cool idea for a sword skill, but man does it sound overpowered.)

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Am I the only one that thinks it’s way too complex and thus way too unfair for others class mechanics? A lesser version of this is the engi’s toolbelt.

I doth protest!

While it is certainly true that what I propose is complicated, that’s because the Mesmer’s illusion system is a complicated mechanic. If you take a look at what we already have, the five pillars I propose are already integrated into the game. Mesmers are supposed to be able to shatter illusions for offensive attacks, shatter illusions to exert nondamaging control over the battlefield, create persistent hexes to harm foes, punish foes who destroy their illusions via retaliatory effects, and support their allies through certain buff and control based illusions. The problem is that some of these concepts aren’t fleshed out. Punishment is especially neglected, existing only as traits that cause your clones to harm attackers.

Mesmers are a complicated profession. The proposal is far from perfect, but it isn’t trying to make things even more convoluted or expand into realms not already deemed Mesmer mechanics. Instead, it’s attempt to take the tangled skein that currently exists and reweave it into something more elegant.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

A current struggle that most mesmers have is that we often need to sacrifice a lot of damage for team utility or sacrifice a significant amount of sustain for spike dmg. AoE is dependent on illusions living and you haven’t changed that so wvw mesmers would still struggle. Looking at your proposed skills, I think a rework like this would actually make the problem worst as there are clear winners in damage and then clear winners in utility while still being shackled too much to illusions. Since most of our bugs are tied to illusions, I think giving mesmers more illusion would also make things worst.

Now this note of caution, I agree with completely. But I don’t think it can be solved without rewriting everything.

See, the Damage vs. Utility conundrum occurs with a lot of different professions, primarily due to the way damage is king in so many aspects of the game. But it’s especially problematic for the Mesmer due to the way the illusion mechanic is already tied into damage dealing. A typical mesmer builds themselves around how they want to use their illusions to do harm, and the core pillars of Shatter, Phantasm, and Punishment are all based on dealing out damage.

It creates two conundrums. On the one hand, the illusion system can be reorganized in a way that just focuses on dealing damage. Problem is, that requires taking out nifty and cool options for battlefield control, things that actually use the concept of ephemeral creativity to make the mesmer more interesting.

On the other hand, the system can drastically reduce the amount of damage illusions deal and focus on battlefield control. Unfortunately once again, this ends up with a problem, since it means taking the core pillars of current mesmer gameplay and reducing them drastically. At that point, you may as well rewrite the class entirely (I have a draft for that two, somewhere in my hypothetical brainstorming exercises!).

I appreciate the problem of control and support versus dealing damage, but I don’t think it can be solved via a single profession’s main mechanic reorganization. If anything, the better option would be making the simple combat modes in a lot of the game that heavily favor Full Berserker gameplay more complex and intricate, thus allowing control to thrive.

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Oh, and my system did already account for WvW Mesmers via A Touch of Guile. If a facade is immune to damage but dies in around seven seconds, it can be tossed directly into an oncoming zerg to punish anyone who strikes it. Which would happen quite a bit for those few seconds. Just thought I’d mention that.

Note that this is not a rework. This is a full redesign of the class. That’s why this will never happen, not even a little bit.

Yeah, the basic underlying change might be easier to argue. Swap shatters to be a weapon-based ability using up clones for some effect. Swap Illusion-generation to be the class ability.

That way, the dependency of the class-mechanic (which is just meh on a design-level) is removed.

Great idea, good write up but don’t see the core of it been implemented. If they do see and read this, they might won’t to implement some of the ideas but fashion it differently.

Wishful thinking.

Only if anet had thought about this from the get go, we won’t be having this conversations. The class was the last to be reviled, I don’t think they had enough time and passover to flush out the class. Compare the class to elementarilest which was the first class reviled.

I or we can only hope for good changes to come soon with bug fixes.