Guild Wars 2

Then reduce it to 0.8? It’s just an example of how it could look like, cba about scaling. Anyway even if its 1.0, as explained above, it will be still weaker than #1 sword when using power builds.

Statistically nothing makes a difference when we make everything RNG. Let’s do that and see how that works out shall we? So #1 of GS sometimes hits 300% and sometimes 20%.Yeah exactly, I don’t think you want that either.

BlackDevil.9268:

Then reduce it to 0.8? It’s just an example of how it could look like, cba about scaling. Anyway even if its 1.0, as explained above, it will be still weaker than #1 sword when using power builds.

That would still be a more than 100% buff. I’m not sure if this is needed.
Why increase the direct damage component that much in the first place?

BlackDevil.9268:

Statistically nothing makes a difference when we make everything RNG. Let’s do that and see how that works out shall we? So #1 of GS sometimes hits 300% and sometimes 20%.Yeah exactly, I don’t think you want that either.

True. But the more important statement of my post is that it doesn’t improve the gameplay in any way. I just fail to see the benefit of a chain versus the current RNG AA. Ultimatively, it might even lower the damage output because you might have less access to Burning since it is bound to the third hit.

The direct damage atm is jus really poor. It’s even weaker than scepter #1 for power builds. I don’t see how a higher scaling with such low base damage is so ’’op’’. 111 is about the lowest base damage you can get on AA’s.

So you know on what you can rely on? I didn’t say you would be better off without RNG, RNG is just idiotic in games, especially in PvP aspect.

Xaylin.1860:

True. But the more important statement of my post is that it doesn’t improve the gameplay in any way. I just fail to see the benefit of a chain versus the current RNG AA. Ultimatively, it might even lower the damage output because you might have less access to Burning since it is bound to the third hit.

I actually agree that for the most part this wouldn’t be a huge improvement for us, but I think knowing what you can or can’t do is a good thing that you can coordinate a team or strategy around.

Also I think the exact opposite actually. If you can keep staff clones out it can end up being a lot of burst every 5 or so seconds because of staggered burning procs.

BlackDevil.9268:

The direct damage atm is jus really poor. It’s even weaker than scepter #1 for power builds. I don’t see how a higher scaling with such low base damage is so ’’op’’. 111 is about the lowest base damage you can get on AA’s.

So you know on what you can rely on? I didn’t say you would be better off without RNG, RNG is just idiotic in games, especially in PvP aspect.

If you use Staff for power build, then it’s meant to be a defensive weapon to get out of the dire situation.

I don’t see how a defensive/condition-oriented weapon should be buffed in its power for the sake of power builds.

It’s as strange as asking the condition damage of the sword to be buffed for the sake of condi builds that want to use the sword because for some reason you like the Sword 2 more than the Scepter 2.

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

xallever.1874:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

I couldn’t be bothered to reply in detail as to why staff doesn’t need a buff, but your posts are spot on.

xallever.1874:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

The burst is in iWarlock where it should be. Staff is more utility than conditions though since the #1 skill is the only skill that you can condi pressure with. The conditions Chaos Storm provides are strictly for utility, which is why the only one that does damage is poison and even that’s a short duration.

Seeing as how a condition or a power spec can benefit from utility; why is it that the power scaling for the #1 skill needs to stay so absurdly low? I honestly don’t think it should be by much, but raising the scaling doesn’t seem like a ridiculous request.

Raunchy.6891:

xallever.1874:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

The burst is in iWarlock where it should be. Staff is more utility than conditions though since the #1 skill is the only skill that you can condi pressure with. The conditions Chaos Storm provides are strictly for utility, which is why the only one that does damage is poison and even that’s a short duration.

Seeing as how a condition or a power spec can benefit from utility; why is it that the power scaling for the #1 skill needs to stay so absurdly low? I honestly don’t think it should be by much, but raising the scaling doesn’t seem like a ridiculous request.

Well, the AA from #1 is already proof that it’s oriented more towards condition as you’ve said. Look at the Napalm Cat Osicat is using.

Whereas for a power build, the fact that the Staff is mostly a utility weapon, and a defensive one at that, why should its power rating be increased?

Your argument defeats its own position by calling the Staff a utility weapon because utility fulfills its purpose without the need for any damage buff.

If anything, what you’ll be asking for is things like more teleport range on the skill #2 if there is anything wrong with the utility of this weapon.

Look, power builds use the Staff because it’s so good as a defensive weapon, one that may outvalue the damage/defense from using sword/x combos.

That’s a design choice for your build for using a weapon that is oriented more towards condition but whose utility is so excellent you decide to use it nevertheless.

This is a synergy of offense + defense.

It’s going to be as absurd as saying that any warrior using off-hand shield usable in a power build would mean that they should buff the shield to cater more towards power damage.

Please. By this line of reasoning, you would also think it’s reasonable for the warrior’s Longbow to be buffed in its power damage.

xallever.1874:

Raunchy.6891:

xallever.1874:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

The burst is in iWarlock where it should be. Staff is more utility than conditions though since the #1 skill is the only skill that you can condi pressure with. The conditions Chaos Storm provides are strictly for utility, which is why the only one that does damage is poison and even that’s a short duration.

Seeing as how a condition or a power spec can benefit from utility; why is it that the power scaling for the #1 skill needs to stay so absurdly low? I honestly don’t think it should be by much, but raising the scaling doesn’t seem like a ridiculous request.

Well, the AA from #1 is already proof that it’s oriented more towards condition as you’ve said. Look at the Napalm Cat Osicat is using.

Whereas for a power build, the fact that the Staff is mostly a utility weapon, and a defensive one at that, why should its power rating be increased?

Your argument defeats its own position by calling the Staff a utility weapon because utility fulfills its purpose without the need for any damage buff.

If anything, what you’ll be asking for is things like more teleport range on the skill #2 if there is anything wrong with the utility of this weapon.

lolwut. Utility doesn’t mean “shouldn’t do damage”. It means that it’s useful. The mobility that staff provides in combat along with access to Chaos Armor and a couple boons is useful. That shouldn’t justify staff having abysmal pressuring power unless Chaos Storm is up.

Having 2 damaging conditions on low duration does not make a weapon a condi weapon, and actually Osi’s build proves that Balthazar runes are strong more than it proves staff is.

Raunchy.6891:

xallever.1874:

Raunchy.6891:

xallever.1874:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

The burst is in iWarlock where it should be. Staff is more utility than conditions though since the #1 skill is the only skill that you can condi pressure with. The conditions Chaos Storm provides are strictly for utility, which is why the only one that does damage is poison and even that’s a short duration.

Seeing as how a condition or a power spec can benefit from utility; why is it that the power scaling for the #1 skill needs to stay so absurdly low? I honestly don’t think it should be by much, but raising the scaling doesn’t seem like a ridiculous request.

Well, the AA from #1 is already proof that it’s oriented more towards condition as you’ve said. Look at the Napalm Cat Osicat is using.

Whereas for a power build, the fact that the Staff is mostly a utility weapon, and a defensive one at that, why should its power rating be increased?

Your argument defeats its own position by calling the Staff a utility weapon because utility fulfills its purpose without the need for any damage buff.

If anything, what you’ll be asking for is things like more teleport range on the skill #2 if there is anything wrong with the utility of this weapon.

lolwut. Utility doesn’t mean “shouldn’t do damage”. It means that it’s useful. The mobility that staff provides in combat along with access to Chaos Armor and a couple boons is useful. That shouldn’t justify staff having abysmal pressuring power unless Chaos Storm is up.

Having 2 damaging conditions on low duration does not make a weapon a condi weapon, and actually Osi’s build proves that Balthazar runes are strong more than it proves staff is.

It obviously doesn’t “not do damage”. The way the weapon is designed is so defensive that if anyone is to build specifically for the weapon to shine, they will go for some defense and condi damage because that’s how people normally fight for DoT. It revolves around kiting and durability.

Therefore, the power damage of the staff isn’t the primary feature of the weapon.

The Staff is designed in such a way that you win the battle through attrition. In a power setting, this means the Staff fulfills its purpose for as long as you can get out of harm’s way like avoiding a Mesmer doing sword #2. Once their burst chains are over, it’s time to swap to your offensive card.

Warrior’s longbow obviously isn’t famous for its powerful AA, and rightly so. Doesn’t mean it’s unviable in a power setup.

Now that I’ve actually run the numbers. I’ve come to determine that over time staff does a comparable amount of damage to other two handed weapons, even if it is on the lower end of the scale. So I’m guessing that raising the power coefficient would make it a bit more powerful than intended. Oh well it sounded good in my head.

Edit: What about making the boons it gives to allies last 1sec longer?

BlackDevil.9268:

Can people start reading? No one is asking for a buff, no one is trying to make staff stronger, everyone with a normal mindset is trying to get staff more reliable instead of Yolo RNG.

Okaaaaay. I’ll back off slowly at this point, because you’re clearly to angry to realize how little sense that made.

Staff is a wonderful weapon in power builds with the interrupt trait, but it’s value isn’t damage it’s the boons and movement utility. The only changes I’d want to see are the recovery of always protection on Staff 4 and a fix for when the staff auto attack moves so slowly that it pops you out of stealth. Auto attacks, stealth, auto attack finally hits target, you now have revealed. :/ It’s manageable but annoying.

xallever.1874:

BlackDevil.9268:

I’ve increased the scaling due earlier people asking for it and cause it makes sense to me.
Where was it stated that the weapon is condition oriented? The iwarlock deals normal damage, much higher in power builds than in condition builds and chaos storm apply’s 2/3 (or 3/4 if you count daze causing vurnability as condition) conditions which deal 0 damage. They only get affected by condition duration, which power builds also can make profit from due immobilizes etc.
The AA also applies vurnability, which is mostly only usefull for power builds. That’s 1/3rd of the AA.
The weapon is supposed to be some sort of hybrid weapon obviously, though it’s based way too much on RNG and the AA scaling is very ‘’power-demoting’‘. I agree it’s a defensive weapon, but the changed I’ve listed wouldnt even increase the total damage so much. Sure AA becomes a little bit stronger, that’s about it?

Condition damage relies on DoT, so the mobility the Staff provides help you to survive whilst waiting for the damage to tick.

iWarlock deals damage normally, but its power scales to the conditions the enemies suffer.

And obviously, chaos storm gives out boons and conditions.

If it’s a power-oriented weapon, then obviously it will have some sort of burst akin to a power weapon, like the Guardian’s GS, Warrior’s GS, etc.

Staff offers the ability to survive as full glass, not only for DoT’s/cheese builds. That’s how full dps classes survive, with dodgy play. Staff is probably the closest weapon to any weapon of thief due it’s low cooldown of portaling.

Iwarlock scales with the power of the caster. So no, it doesnt deal damage ’’normally’’.
Obviously? Wouldnt it be ’’obviously’’ to give conditions such as confusion or torment instead of chill and weakness? Both conditions can be very usefull with powerbuilds. Hell, even poison is mostly used for the side effect instead of the damage itself. I CBA about it’s damage anyway, even with condition builds. It’s side effect is so much stronger. Imo poison shouldnt even deal damage, but only have it’s side effect. Conditions get spammed enough already in this game and it’s getting more cheesy every patch. The only reason why is because it actually deals a lot damage instead of being supportive like most conditions are supposed to.

Yes, ’’obviously’’ it gives boons. Aegis is so needed in 1800 toughness tanky condition builds. Cause hey, if you get eviscerated with such armor you instantly die! Aegis in general a much better boon for squishy builds compared to condition ones.
Retaliation scales with power, not condition damage. Again; a power based boon.
Swiftness: this is a general boon. It’s usefull in any build.

Fury; mostly buffs those who have high crit damage/ferocity, aka zerker builds.
Might; buffs both condition and power builds. So hybrid.

You got 1 skill that is almost fully based on conditions which is the AA, the rest is based on hybrid or power. So please tell me, how is staff a condition weapon?

BlackDevil.9268:

Can people start reading? No one is asking for a buff, no one is trying to make staff stronger, everyone with a normal mindset is trying to get staff more reliable instead of Yolo RNG.
Maybe op has to put that in his post cause this is getting more frustrating than playing flappy birds upside-down.

i agree with u. staff is very rng which is a problem because u never know how effective your attacks are. u can be lucky and get a ton of nice condis and daze off, but then u can be unlucky and your chaosstorm deal like no dmg, your phantasm fails to hit anything and your chaos armor is useless. rng is bad and mes has so many skills and traits that only work if a certain thing is fullfilled. some traits only trigger if u kill something, others only trigger is shatter hit other stuff only trigger if u get hit…etc. staff is rng weapon and needs a make over imo!

Or you could just conveniently ignore the rest of my points.

selan.8354:

i agree with u. staff is very rng which is a problem because u never know how effective your attacks are. u can be lucky and get a ton of nice condis and daze off, but then u can be unlucky and your chaosstorm deal like no dmg, your phantasm fails to hit anything and your chaos armor is useless. rng is bad and mes has so many skills and traits that only work if a certain thing is fullfilled. some traits only trigger if u kill something, others only trigger is shatter hit other stuff only trigger if u get hit…etc. staff is rng weapon and needs a make over imo!

Half the chaos line is about random effects. RNG is a really good mechanic for game balance, it forces players to do risk management.

I know it’s unpopular among 1v1 players, but then 1v1 is just not a supported game format in GW2.

Carighan.6758:

selan.8354:

i agree with u. staff is very rng which is a problem because u never know how effective your attacks are. u can be lucky and get a ton of nice condis and daze off, but then u can be unlucky and your chaosstorm deal like no dmg, your phantasm fails to hit anything and your chaos armor is useless. rng is bad and mes has so many skills and traits that only work if a certain thing is fullfilled. some traits only trigger if u kill something, others only trigger is shatter hit other stuff only trigger if u get hit…etc. staff is rng weapon and needs a make over imo!

Half the chaos line is about random effects. RNG is a really good mechanic for game balance, it forces players to do risk management.

I know it’s unpopular among 1v1 players, but then 1v1 is just not a supported game format in GW2.

lolwut.
No one likes rng, especially in pvp. Ask anyone competitive and they will tell you how terrible it is for rng mechanics to be shoved into your face. It balances nothing. It just makes things more random, and random effects/consequences do not support skillful play. You know what actually promotes risk management? Skills that involve risk…..

Raunchy.6891:

Carighan.6758:

selan.8354:

i agree with u. staff is very rng which is a problem because u never know how effective your attacks are. u can be lucky and get a ton of nice condis and daze off, but then u can be unlucky and your chaosstorm deal like no dmg, your phantasm fails to hit anything and your chaos armor is useless. rng is bad and mes has so many skills and traits that only work if a certain thing is fullfilled. some traits only trigger if u kill something, others only trigger is shatter hit other stuff only trigger if u get hit…etc. staff is rng weapon and needs a make over imo!

Half the chaos line is about random effects. RNG is a really good mechanic for game balance, it forces players to do risk management.

I know it’s unpopular among 1v1 players, but then 1v1 is just not a supported game format in GW2.

lolwut.
No one likes rng, especially in pvp. Ask anyone competitive and they will tell you how terrible it is for rng mechanics to be shoved into your face. It balances nothing. It just makes things more random, and random effects/consequences do not support skillful play. You know what actually promotes risk management? Skills that involve risk…..

The thing is it’s not really particularly random. Anyone witha cursory understanding of statistics knows that over a larger sample size any random variable isn’t really particularly unreliable. The more trials, the smaller the standard deviation- and 95% of the time you are within two standard deviations.

Between the bouncing attacks, clones casting winds of chaos, and the fact that staff is more defensive in general(longer fights), the number of trials for winds of chaos is huge- and will get even larger when they fix clone bouncing/elasticity. I could say with absolute confidence that Winds of chaos performs fairly reliably in terms of conditions applied. It’s most unreliable feature is whether bounces hit who you want them to- but that isn’t random at all: They ALWAYS 100% of the time hit the closest available target.

Liewise chaos storm, potentially throwing out 20-50 conditions depending on circumstances, and if you and/or an ally use it’s ethereal field to proc chaos armor(which you always should) easily another 10-20 conditions, creates more then enough conditions for the law of averages to make the effects fairly reliable.

The one tool in the staff kit that arguably has too few trials is vanilla chaos armour- which in a scenarios where only one enemy is attacking you will create a mere 10 conditions every 35 seconds. But even that isn’t horrible.

Honestly saying competitive players hate all forms of randomness is a gross exaggeration- they hate the unreliability and unpredictability that comes from random variables with wide standards of deviation(which generally means super powerful effects that only get “rolled” a few times per fight creating a huge schism in power between the fights they proc and the fights they don’t). But over a sufficiently larger number of iterations random rolls don’t really introduce a particularly notable amount of unpredictability.

Now, back on the original topic: All I think staff really needs is for staffclone winds of chaos bouncing & elasticity to get the bugfix we’ve been told is coming and perhaps for staff 4 chaos armor to get a bit of a boost(it’s been nerfed a few too many times and still has a very long cooldown).

Also because of how useful staffclones are in general due to the boons/conditions they apply, staff builds in particular would benefit from Arenanet dealing with the general Mesmer problem of illusions dying instantly.

Raunchy.6891:

No one likes rng

Burden of proof is on you, then.
Mind you, you’re up against roguelikes, crits in general and most board and card games. All using RNG for risk management challenging.
I would argue that the “no one” you mention are the subset of players who cannot handle risk assessment?

Raunchy.6891:

, especially in pvp. Ask anyone competitive and they will tell you how terrible it is for rng mechanics to be shoved into your face. It balances nothing. It just makes things more random, and random effects/consequences do not support skillful play. You know what actually promotes risk management? Skills that involve risk…..

Ah, so now “no one” got reduced to “all except the competitive players”. Better, but again, burden of proof.

I’d throw in competitive poker players as a first line. Their entire game is based around the random cards being dealt, and how to play a winning game from that.

Alternatively if we want to stay MMO-only, critical hits don’t seem to annoy competitive players much. Only, that’s RNG. You could easily not crit at all, an entire fight, unless you have 100%+ chance. How’s that fair and promoting skillful play, then?

But here’s the thing: it is.
Defence against incoming damage is based upon the known risk that incoming crits can crit, often providing secondary effects. This is known. It is planned against, even if you might not consciously think much about it. You know that just looking at the non-crit damage when judging whatever you might take is wrong. And so is just looking at crit damage.

Likewise, when you attack with the staff, you know that it’s going to be one of three effects. All three provide damage in some way, just in different ways. Would it be smart to always consider the proc to be bleeding when grouped and vulnerability when solo? Ofc not! Would it make sense to always think it procs vulnerability when grouped and burning when solo? Ofc not.
Can you still judge the outgoing damage fine? Well, assuming you account for the vulnerability party damage, then yes, you can. Easily so.
But … aren’t you already handling the RNG at that point?

Really, to understand why RNG is such an important mechanic for nearly any game, look at roguelikes. For a prime example, look at FTL, a game that swings wildly in universe layout, sometimes making it all but impossible to even progress. And at the end, a fixed boss.
Now, players will usually say “So it’s random whether I can beat the boss or not?”. That’s how you start with FTL. Later on, you realize that for all it’s randomness, you can just plan that in, and have enough contingency plans and alternative target loadouts. End result? 28/28 games won on Normal, just in the pre-xpack livestream. Not a single game lost.

You say RNG is bad for skillful play. I’ll counter that unless you can account for random chances and their possible outcomes, you really lacking an absolutely crucial ability of any commander, warrior, tactician, controller or even manager. Or worker, for that case. Why you would be talking about playing skillful if you cannot manage risk and randomness … I don’t know.

Raunchy.6891:

Carighan.6758:

selan.8354:

i agree with u. staff is very rng which is a problem because u never know how effective your attacks are. u can be lucky and get a ton of nice condis and daze off, but then u can be unlucky and your chaosstorm deal like no dmg, your phantasm fails to hit anything and your chaos armor is useless. rng is bad and mes has so many skills and traits that only work if a certain thing is fullfilled. some traits only trigger if u kill something, others only trigger is shatter hit other stuff only trigger if u get hit…etc. staff is rng weapon and needs a make over imo!

Half the chaos line is about random effects. RNG is a really good mechanic for game balance, it forces players to do risk management.

I know it’s unpopular among 1v1 players, but then 1v1 is just not a supported game format in GW2.

lolwut.
No one likes rng, especially in pvp. Ask anyone competitive and they will tell you how terrible it is for rng mechanics to be shoved into your face. It balances nothing. It just makes things more random, and random effects/consequences do not support skillful play. You know what actually promotes risk management? Skills that involve risk…..

exaclty all other classes can push a button and get exaclty what they wanted, we deal dmg based on luck. rng is terrible.why else do u think glamour was so popular in wvw? it was the only build that didnt rely on ai to shatter where we want to, phantasm to hit where we ant to, chaosstrom to trigger daze when we want to, being in range to get the boons on shatter etc. rng is bad period.glamour i was able to use where i wanted, when i wanted and i knew exaclty what i was getting and that i was dealing dmg for example.

Low hanging fruit tweaks:

Speed up the projectile speed on the auto and staff clones. (Terribad slow)

Speed up the projectile speed on the Warlock and/or give them something else to do in between shots in case they miss. (also terribad slow)

Something to think about:

Lowering the recharge on Chaos storm would allow Mesmers to have a support role available to then in larger scale fights, something the class could really use to justify bringing them along.

Carighan.6758:

Burden of proof is on you, then.
Mind you, you’re up against roguelikes, crits in general and most board and card games. All using RNG for risk management challenging.
I would argue that the “no one” you mention are the subset of players who cannot handle risk assessment?

You can use crit as an example, but you can build to amplify crit chance therefore increasing your odds to crit. Can you do that with staff? I don’t think so.

Also using board games and card games as an example to compare to any kind of action based video game is inherently flawed, since the basic principles of how they work are extremely different.

Carighan.6758:

I’d throw in competitive poker players as a first line. Their entire game is based around the random cards being dealt, and how to play a winning game from that.

Again, you’re comparing two things that have no similarities besides rng elements and mental maneuvering.

Carighan.6758:

Alternatively if we want to stay MMO-only, critical hits don’t seem to annoy competitive players much. Only, that’s RNG. You could easily not crit at all, an entire fight, unless you have 100%+ chance. How’s that fair and promoting skillful play, then?

Crits, in this game especially don’t completely affect how an exchange can go. Also I wouldn’t say you could easily not crit. It’s possible to not crit an entire fight if you don’t have 100% chance, but the probability of that actually happening is so slim it’s not even worth mentioning.

Carighan.6758:

You say RNG is bad for skillful play. I’ll counter that unless you can account for random chances and their possible outcomes, you really lacking an absolutely crucial ability of any commander, warrior, tactician, controller or even manager. Or worker, for that case. Why you would be talking about playing skillful if you cannot manage risk and randomness … I don’t know.

It’s not that I think rng shouldn’t be in games at all. I’m saying it’s not a good mechanic when it’s forced upon you, especially in a pvp environment. Instead of a blanket statement like the first one I’ll just say this. No competitive player will ever say that they like rng in their game. I know professional gamers, and they reduce the amount of rng available to them to as little as possible, so that it’s never a matter of luck as to who is the winner.

Raunchy.6891:

I’m saying it’s not a good mechanic when it’s forced upon you, especially in a pvp environment.

Since it’s not forced upon you, I take it you’re completely fine with the current Staff and Chaos line, then?

Raunchy.6891:

No competitive player will ever say that they like rng in their game. I know professional gamers, and they reduce the amount of rng available to them to as little as possible, so that it’s never a matter of luck as to who is the winner.

Ofc they reduce the amount of chance, that’s exactly what you do when handling RNG. You plan so that the outcome of the randomness doesn’t matter in that you got plans either way.

That’s exactly how any decent player uses the staff. You don’t plan for burning-procs. You plan for “Staff AA”. It’s a fairly reliable output tbh, all things considered.

Really, you can argue that RNG is disliked, but most of game development currently disagrees with you. Random element fulfil a crucial role in making the fight undecided before it actually commences. Theoretically, absolutely perfect top-level players wouldn’t have to fight against each other if not for the random and pseudo-random elements of the games they play.

However they do! And the outcome is undecided.

Now, you might argue “Yes but there’s a line! Crits is ok, Staff is not.” . But then I’ll ask: Why? What sets one apart from the other? Just that you can increase the odds for crits?
Staff actually has pretty easy averages and the deviation per use is pretty low (see a post above about that). Doesn’t seem like it has anything inherently settings it apart there.

My point is: I’d rather see Staff strong. The RNG gives it a reason to be powerful. As a defensive tool it already is. I’m not even sure it should be an offensive weapon much, but even then I’d rather keep the random element and have it be powerful than remove the randomness and have it be bland.

P.S.:
MMO-RPG. Not MMO-Action-Game.

I wonder if this discussion is seen by the dev as they’ve seen the GS one =/