Guild Wars 2

supcutie was running some broken kitten kitten tonight. thing was faceroll, did so much cc and damage and outright unkillable. to add salt to the wound, he ran vamp runes and was on TS with aeroxe who basically was stealthing him as needed. glad they have fun. the match was silly to me, and I tell myself it’s beta so all good.

I’m basically making a request for supcutie to discuss the build here, and write up some constructive feedback for the devs. lets nip this in the bud before it becomes meta for 6 months.

mistsim.2748:

supcutie was running some broken kitten kitten tonight. thing was faceroll, did so much cc and damage and outright unkillable. to add salt to the wound, he ran vamp runes and was on TS with aeroxe who basically was stealthing him as needed. glad they have fun. the match was silly to me, and I tell myself it’s beta so all good.

I’m basically making a request for supcutie to discuss the build here, and write up some constructive feedback for the devs. lets nip this in the bud before it becomes meta for 6 months.

“outright unkillable” + “stealthing him as needed” = are you sure he wasn’t just stealthing as needed to escape death?

I’d beleive you but this playerbase version of a completly broken Mesmer build is ‘this mesmer dared to join the same match as me’.

nah it wasn’t just the stealth that made him unkillable. he rarely used the SR, but it just made it extra painful especially with the vamp runes lol. it was as if he was perma-blocking everything, popping shatters and wells all over the place.

I’m sure there are plenty of other broken builds, but this one really stood out today.

So you couldnt take down a recognised exceptional player using an exceptionally strong escape artist class who was in Teamspeak with a friend combining their efforts to dominate in a PvP game mode?

I’m not sure how “Chronomancer” is to blame here….

Yeah, uh, complaining that you were getting dominated by supcutie + a friend working together because of chronomancer is a little special…

nah trust me. not supcutie + friend issue. I play at the top mmr, so I face people of similar caliber every day. this build is nuts. I’m sure he’d be happy to tell u that.

anyway, thanks for the bumps. make sure to keep this thread going for the devs.

Oh, just kitten off.

Sorry, that was rude.

Would you kindly kitten off?

it would just be nice if someone experienced could theorycraft this build so we can discuss it. I’m not trolling, even though it may appear that way.

supcutie is overpowered, needs a nerf before he becomes the meta for 6 months.

mistsim.2748:

nah trust me. not supcutie + friend issue. I play at the top mmr, so I face people of similar caliber every day. this build is nuts. I’m sure he’d be happy to tell u that.

anyway, thanks for the bumps. make sure to keep this thread going for the devs.

I’m afraid I can’t trust you on this one. Someone that would make a thread like this is very questionably skilled, which would place you low on mmr.

Fay.2357:

mistsim.2748:

nah trust me. not supcutie + friend issue. I play at the top mmr, so I face people of similar caliber every day. this build is nuts. I’m sure he’d be happy to tell u that.

anyway, thanks for the bumps. make sure to keep this thread going for the devs.

I’m afraid I can’t trust you on this one. Someone that would make a thread like this is very questionably skilled, which would place you low on mmr.

Truth. This thread reeks of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

Get me the build first, then I might say something. Until then this thread serves no purpose.

Hey guys :P

So first of all I wasn’t in TS with Aero, he just did a good job helping me out when I needed it.

The build is here:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8encfC1qhlpB2fCEgilTjiMAWggqMDauwp+Zz2tF-TZBGABeXGAgLAQaHEgDeCA2s/AA
I might run Moa in team play, still not sure.

There were five of us in the queue, Countless, Aeroxe, Bob, Zeromis and I. But Aero wasn’t in TS.

Basically someone accidentally queued us up for Stronghold when we wanted to do Conquest, so we just decided to kill people as much as we could instead of playing the gametype properly, thus I just hung outside the lord room just fighting, and Aero hung out with me too.

Anyway, it’s definitely a strong build, Chrono is strong. That said, Engi has never really fared well vs. Mesmer. And if I’m being honest, the outcome probably would have been similar even without Chrono.

My gut tells me that Chrono will be nerfed, but I’m not sure what levels of strength the developers are intending. It seems the last few Elite specialization balances have actually brought up the other professions to be closer to Chrono.

My last point I do want to make is that if you look at profession distribution for wins in ESL and WTS, Mesmer and Ranger are quite underrepresented (only two Mesmers ever in WTS – Helseth and myself). So frankly, it’s a nice change to be strong. That said, playing Chrono really well has a fairly high skill cap, and I feel that I am being rewarded for my skill.

P.S.
I’m all about counterplay and balance, but coming from an engineer who was in the meta for over a year on cele, it’s hard for me to have sympathy. I’m also not saying that previous imbalances justify current imbalances, but there were monetary rewards for all the celes for a year, and I feel like maybe I could get away with saying that I like being strong. Although maybe the strength is coming from skill? Who knows. If it gets nerfed it gets nerfed, I provide feedback to the devs and then after that I’m just striving to play as well as I can. Hopefully this time I can make some more money along the way though.

What do you guys think?

Supcutie, if you think chronomancer is too strong and that it may be nerfed, what exactly do you think is the problem? Alacrity? The wells? the shield?

My personal feeling is that the alacrity on shatter is a bit over the top. Alacrity on well is fine because it needs high investment to get high uptime (most of your right bar), but the alacrity on shatter is stronger (though only personal) and does not need any change except simply using the chronomancy line (I think it is worthy of a GM trait).

Well, I’m not sure if Perma Alacrity is intended (I’m traited twice for Alacrity), so maybe that’s something to look at. There have been times where I walk out of a team fight with Zeromis and we have 20 seconds of Alacrity while we rotate (because we communicated and stood in each others’ wells). We will just blow Shatters while rotating because the Shatters will be up anyway, and it gives us more Alacrity for other skills. Slow is super strong but honestly the Alacrity up time right now I think is just better.
The change to Shield allowing it to block during the channel is also really good, Increased survivability a lot.

Hmm that was the exact build I’ve been running except the well heal. Will try with well heal as it makes a lot of sense.

Seriously, why would you post this in multiple sections (pvp and mesmer). This is against code of conduct.

Anyway, putting the foolish multi posting aside, its quite possible that the buffed improved alacrity synergizes a little to well with flow of time. However, there is no way to tell this from one instance. This is one person and one complaint. Additionally, some of the other specializations are very strong now. There are also new mechanics out, like wells and continuum shift, that many players will not know how to handle right away.

p.s. Supcutie, I appreciate that you were so open and posted your build and some technique. Many would not do this. Its very interesting seeing the different combinations and ideas people are testing around with chronomancer.

As supcutie said, all the elite specialization has been pushed towards a pretty strong level.
Go watch phantaram play his revenant. He did 1million damage in a game. The old meta PU mesmer normally only do 25-30k damage per game. And the immortal dd ele also only do like 30k direct damage + 20k condie damage before nerf.

Exciton but keep in mind, he fight Druids and other tanky/healing kitten… Druid basicaly heals 100k hp each time etc xD. Back to Mesmer as devs told… Alcarity will propably be a problem to balance. Its good in pve, but op at some point in pvp. Still… Scrapper hits like instant 7/8 k dmg….

Exciton.8942:

As supcutie said, all the elite specialization has been pushed towards a pretty strong level.
Go watch phantaram play his revenant. He did 1million damage in a game. The old meta PU mesmer normally only do 25-30k damage per game. And the immortal dd ele also only do like 30k direct damage + 20k condie damage before nerf.

Revenant does around 8-12k unrelenting assaults on a single target at low to moderate might stack levels, which luckily the revenant can stack fairly easily.

Their autoattack is the strongest sword autoattack in the game, easily doing 40% more DPS than the mesmer autoattack, and the revenant autoattack also stacks 8-12 vulnerability by itself whereas the mesmer autoattack caps around 4-5 and with sword clones bumps up to 8-9 (sword clones will rarely be up so this is an unrealistic scenario).

Then we get to Shiro’s Impossible Odds, which allows them easy 4-5 seconds of swiftness every legend switch to Shiro on top of its super speed.

Mesmer is all burst, terrible sustained damage. Nerfing alacrity will completely negate what little help we got in the sustained damage department, but of course PvP has a history of keeping this class inferior in PvE.

Unrelenting Assault not only does over double the damage of blurred frenzy, it also teleports you to the target, evades for longer time, and grants you 7 stacks of might.

This game has no semblance of DPS balance across classes because it’s balanced around bursting 20k max health pools unlike in PvE where mobs have millions of HP.

It’s also worth keeping in mind chill directly counters alacrity, can anyone think of a class that just got chill application sent to the moon?

Has anyone used or fought a chill reaper yet to see how alacrity fairs?

Michal.4513:

Exciton but keep in mind, he fight Druids and other tanky/healing kitten… Druid basicaly heals 100k hp each time etc xD. Back to Mesmer as devs told… Alcarity will propably be a problem to balance. Its good in pve, but op at some point in pvp. Still… Scrapper hits like instant 7/8 k dmg….

Now he is playing chronomancer. I don’t see it being OP at all. So is it just supcutie being good mesmer from the very start?

thanks for responding man, real nice of ya. my OP was very troll-ey. but I did get worried when I saw it in action =) still worried.

but from what we’ve seen Gee knows what he’s doing so hopefully the build doesn’t get killed. doubt it will.

Remember that “perma alacrity” is only possible cause chrono stacking.
Im also in love with superspeed on clones(so i dont use well trait)… Makes the accuracy of shatters much higher.
Less time to evade, harder to kite, they reach target faster so less chances they get cleaved/aoe. Im only using gravity well.. and as solo mesmer, i dont feel the alacrity effect that much… ~1s on shatter… Certainly not as heavly as you ppl talk.

Perhaps if they change it to only give alacrity when in combat would prevent to shatter during roam.

Hey supcutie, the build you made is pretty much the build I defaulted to when testing things out. I don’t think lost time is that great since they understandable reworked it, and I’m liking chronophantasma a lot. The well of precognition is just to good for support and survivability, its honestly amazing.

I also tried a phantasm-mantra-stun-lock build with chronophantasma and inspiration over dueling for protected phantasms and mental defense, but tbh, mantras without harmonious mantras aren’t that great.

apharma.3741:

It’s also worth keeping in mind chill directly counters alacrity, can anyone think of a class that just got chill application sent to the moon?

Has anyone used or fought a chill reaper yet to see how alacrity fairs?

I don’t see any problems against chill reaper. You simply kite them, it’s a joke. Maybe the guys I fought aren’t good.

It seems like the main problem is when you have 2 (or more) chronomancers who are running wells + alacrity-on-well. The high uptime on alacrity further increases their ability to place more wells, giving even more alacrity.

So it seems like a simple tweak to help “fix” the issue (if there is one) would be to make the adept trait only give alacrity to the mesmer who places the well, and not to his teammates. If the mesmer wants to provide alacrity to his team, he can take the well that’s designed specifically for that purpose. He’s also got iAvenger.

Aside from the multiple mesmer well stacking situation, the build seems vulnerable to conditions. You get condi cleanse on the heal well, but that’s on a 30s CD (18s CD if you maintain perma alacrity), so heavy condi pressure still works well.

I’ve been running a very similar build (dif sigils) but have generally found it to be really strong against most builds, but with a very high skill ceiling. Conditions are definitely the weak point. And a condi version of this build might be even stronger.

Overall, I’d say it’s still too early to tell whether a build will be OP or not. A lot of builds seem really strong until you figure them out. Considering OP didn’t even know what build Supcutie was running, I think we’re still very much in the stage where you’re still internalize your opponent’s cooldowns and learning the tells/counters.

For example, knocking the mesmer out of his heal well will cut the heal in half and also remove the cleansing effect. Of course, to do this you’ll need to bait out his defensive skills first (BF, shield4, distortion, precog). Making sure you don’t hit his Shield4 will prevent him from getting a second block, which can allow you to land a follow-up burst. Getting a feeling for when to camp the continuum split beacon, or timing a bomb on the beacon right as it is about to expire can be an instawin.

Honestly, I think we’re gonna need some more details about the team comps to be able to judge the situation.

Personally, I’ve been finding that it’s very difficult to deal with any sort of condi pressure. Was the enemy team doing anything to counter you along those lines?

Yo, so I don’t usually go to mes forums (cause I don’t mes…hello world!) but I was directed here by supcutie. Chronomancer is in a very strong position in PvP at the moment. Out of all the elite specs, it’s also my favourite and in my opinion the most well designed and creative. It’s kinda cool how they were finally able to implement a gw1 concept and do it really well.

Anyways, chronomancer has plenty of invluns and wells for plenty of downstate control. Paired with a thief, it’s tough to take down a chronomancer. However that is not to say that another class could do the same thing. Direct healing may be better than just stealth in certain circumstances.

When I play with mesmers as a thief, I usually like to follow up with what they are doing rather than calling out my own shots or acting independently (I wasn’t on ts, but this still applies as I just watch supcutie’s animations). This is because the mesmer’s burst has a cast time, and unlike me, they cannot stealth and escape so freely. A couple of examples would be that if I see supcutie using mirror blade or I know that he is about to shatter, I’ll get on the target with what cooldowns I have. In other cases, I will be shortbowing, and refuging in front of him if he needs it. I’ll also attack aggressively or use shadowshot/headshot on a target if that target is being aggressive on supcutie in melee range.

Nero Wrought.1452:

Honestly, I think we’re gonna need some more details about the team comps to be able to judge the situation.

Personally, I’ve been finding that it’s very difficult to deal with any sort of condi pressure. Was the enemy team doing anything to counter you along those lines?

couldn’t land anything on him between the blurs, invulns, blocks and invis. got him once or twice but it was a 3v1 constantly. virtually like a well-played d/d ele was after June 23rd patch. that lvl of broken, i.e. sure it’s vulnerable to X, but puts out a ton of damage and requires an immense amount of resources to down. in conquest it’s not about IF you can somehow get him, but about a) is it feasible, b) is it probable, and c) does your team have the skill. this is how well played d/d eles won tournaments.

there was another herald spec that played in a very similar manner, just as broken if not more. but when I attempted to start discourse in their forums, I got suspended so yeah. revs are in la-la land right now, everything is perfect and beautiful and theyre having so much fun. that’s what matters. but not a single thread discussing the OP builds. and I doubt anyone is even aware.

so I’m glad that chrono and revs are well-designed and fun specs. in fact, so is the druid but it aint broken OP. I expect a massive balance patch prior to release, otherwise welcome to rev/chrono meta for 6 months.

mistsim.2748:

Nero Wrought.1452:

Honestly, I think we’re gonna need some more details about the team comps to be able to judge the situation.

Personally, I’ve been finding that it’s very difficult to deal with any sort of condi pressure. Was the enemy team doing anything to counter you along those lines?

couldn’t land anything on him between the blurs, invulns, blocks and invis. got him once or twice but it was a 3v1 constantly. virtually like a well-played d/d ele was after June 23rd patch. that lvl of broken, i.e. sure it’s vulnerable to X, but puts out a ton of damage and requires an immense amount of resources to down. in conquest it’s not about IF you can somehow get him, but about a) is it feasible, b) is it probable, and c) does your team have the skill. this is how well played d/d eles won tournaments.

there was another herald spec that played in a very similar manner, just as broken if not more. but when I attempted to start discourse in their forums, I got suspended so yeah. revs are in la-la land right now, everything is perfect and beautiful and theyre having so much fun. that’s what matters. but not a single thread discussing the OP builds. and I doubt anyone is even aware.

so I’m glad that chrono and revs are well-designed and fun specs. in fact, so is the druid but it aint broken OP. I expect a massive balance patch prior to release, otherwise welcome to rev/chrono meta for 6 months.

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

Fay.2357:

mistsim.2748:

Nero Wrought.1452:

Honestly, I think we’re gonna need some more details about the team comps to be able to judge the situation.

Personally, I’ve been finding that it’s very difficult to deal with any sort of condi pressure. Was the enemy team doing anything to counter you along those lines?

couldn’t land anything on him between the blurs, invulns, blocks and invis. got him once or twice but it was a 3v1 constantly. virtually like a well-played d/d ele was after June 23rd patch. that lvl of broken, i.e. sure it’s vulnerable to X, but puts out a ton of damage and requires an immense amount of resources to down. in conquest it’s not about IF you can somehow get him, but about a) is it feasible, b) is it probable, and c) does your team have the skill. this is how well played d/d eles won tournaments.

there was another herald spec that played in a very similar manner, just as broken if not more. but when I attempted to start discourse in their forums, I got suspended so yeah. revs are in la-la land right now, everything is perfect and beautiful and theyre having so much fun. that’s what matters. but not a single thread discussing the OP builds. and I doubt anyone is even aware.

so I’m glad that chrono and revs are well-designed and fun specs. in fact, so is the druid but it aint broken OP. I expect a massive balance patch prior to release, otherwise welcome to rev/chrono meta for 6 months.

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

Everyone knows chronomancer is Opd. Your silly statement is invalid.

I got owned by supcutie once. It was glorious.

Fay.2357:

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

nah, u managed to entirely miss my point. i don’t have any quarrel with supcutie, or any specific individual running chrono. mind you, out of all the top mesmers in NA (played with/against most of them, there are about 5 names that come to mind), supcutie by far ran the most powerful build. the other guys just didn’t figure it out yet. and after 3 years of conquest, i simply know when something is over the top, as many others do.

chrono shares god-like status with the herald as of BWE3, and because theyre such well designed and fun specs, i don’t want to see them die. but i don’t want another d/d ele for 6 months post-release either. and this is why appreciate aeroxie and supcutie actually responding rationally, because they likely don’t want that either.

we all just want balance in the universe, and to hold hands.

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

nah, u managed to entirely miss my point. but thanks for contributing to the discussion.

The only thing you said in that post was complaining about how badly he beat you. We already know supcutie is great, the thief is great, and they were working together. This just another case of ’don’t want to admit I lost real bad’.

Fay.2357:

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

nah, u managed to entirely miss my point. but thanks for contributing to the discussion.

The only thing you said in that post was complaining about how badly he beat you. We already know supcutie is great, the thief is great, and they were working together. This just another case of ’don’t want to admit I lost real bad’.

just stop trolling a serious thread. i said a lot more in that post, which you chose to ignore and spew your own vitriol, attacking me when i in fact wasn’t hostile toward anyone. I’m done with you, moving on.

edit: actually, say what you will bud. at this point, Gee probably read the thread and that’s all that matters.

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

nah, u managed to entirely miss my point. but thanks for contributing to the discussion.

The only thing you said in that post was complaining about how badly he beat you. We already know supcutie is great, the thief is great, and they were working together. This just another case of ’don’t want to admit I lost real bad’.

just stop trolling a serious thread.

Don’t kid yourself, this is just another whine thread, like all the others. Nothing special is to be found here.

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

nah, u managed to entirely miss my point. but thanks for contributing to the discussion.

The only thing you said in that post was complaining about how badly he beat you. We already know supcutie is great, the thief is great, and they were working together. This just another case of ’don’t want to admit I lost real bad’.

just stop trolling a serious thread. i said a lot more in that post, which you chose to ignore and spew your own vitriol, attacking me when i in fact wasn’t hostile toward anyone. I’m done with you, moving on.

edit: actually, say what you will bud. at this point, Gee probably read the thread and that’s all that matters.

The point is that your argument doesn’t make sense. You are asking for a nerf because you got recked by two of the best players in pvp working together. Not only that, but you keep coming back because you feel so salty about it and can’t let it go. Sure this thread is serious. . . seriously funny that you go to the mesmer forums complaining that you got recked. Seriously though, how did you expect this to go when you posted it in the mesmer forum? You should have just left it in the pvp forum and have been done with it.

i play reaper and play wiht a friend who played dragon trapper

2v4 we won on points

lets nerf dragon and reaper

or lets nerf all classes all together

btw chrono is great but not unbitable . now the mesmer have more choise to control a point and contest it

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

mistsim.2748:

Fay.2357:

tl;dr: I got owned by supcutie and a great thief working extremely effectively together, but I don’t want to admit that I got owned fair and square, and have decided to blame it on the build instead.

nah, u managed to entirely miss my point. but thanks for contributing to the discussion.

The only thing you said in that post was complaining about how badly he beat you. We already know supcutie is great, the thief is great, and they were working together. This just another case of ’don’t want to admit I lost real bad’.

just stop trolling a serious thread. i said a lot more in that post, which you chose to ignore and spew your own vitriol, attacking me when i in fact wasn’t hostile toward anyone. I’m done with you, moving on.

edit: actually, say what you will bud. at this point, Gee probably read the thread and that’s all that matters.

Lol, serious thread? So what part of this thread did you analyze the build and break it down to what parts are op, explain why, and give details to a possible fix? Instead your opening “argument” was filled with statements like “thing was faceroll” and “outright unkillable”. Don’t forget when the actual person you were bm’ing responds, you attitude changes completely and you straight up contradict yourself by saying “thanks for responding man, real nice of ya. my OP was very troll-ey.”

Tldr: You have no argument, you admit that you’re opening statement was troll but get mad when someone else trolls you. Well played hypocrite?

At this point forward, this thread will be for entertainment purposes only.

Countless

the build used above is preety much basic build with chorno wells
any nerf to it will nerf the whole chorno concept

its like necro well. cause they can do insane dmg if you tand on them lets nerf them

i duel condi chorno on my reaper. i lost 60% (i play handicap with 0-10% life force at the start) so lets nerf the condi mesmer more…. common
delete these thread

Zenith.7301:

Exciton.8942:

As supcutie said, all the elite specialization has been pushed towards a pretty strong level.
Go watch phantaram play his revenant. He did 1million damage in a game. The old meta PU mesmer normally only do 25-30k damage per game. And the immortal dd ele also only do like 30k direct damage + 20k condie damage before nerf.

Revenant does around 8-12k unrelenting assaults on a single target at low to moderate might stack levels, which luckily the revenant can stack fairly easily.

Their autoattack is the strongest sword autoattack in the game, easily doing 40% more DPS than the mesmer autoattack, and the revenant autoattack also stacks 8-12 vulnerability by itself whereas the mesmer autoattack caps around 4-5 and with sword clones bumps up to 8-9 (sword clones will rarely be up so this is an unrealistic scenario).

Then we get to Shiro’s Impossible Odds, which allows them easy 4-5 seconds of swiftness every legend switch to Shiro on top of its super speed.

Mesmer is all burst, terrible sustained damage. Nerfing alacrity will completely negate what little help we got in the sustained damage department, but of course PvP has a history of keeping this class inferior in PvE.

Unrelenting Assault not only does over double the damage of blurred frenzy, it also teleports you to the target, evades for longer time, and grants you 7 stacks of might.

This game has no semblance of DPS balance across classes because it’s balanced around bursting 20k max health pools unlike in PvE where mobs have millions of HP.

Some corrections are needed.

First of all Shiro does give swiftness at all. I think you mean quickness.

Second of all you can dodge half of impossible or all of UA depending on if they use quickness.

Third the implicit flaw to UA is that you need your target alone. So summoning Illusions makes you take even less damage.