About Deceptive Evasion
This is really the case with most class in this game. All warrior builds need to go at least 4 in defence and 3 down the last line for cleansing ire and fast hand. Engineer needs to have 6 in offense for grenades and at least 2 in the last line for speedy kits. All LB rangers need to grab the piercing arrows and read the wind to even function.
I can agree on cleansing ire, but engis dont need to run granade kits, they have many other options.
What i’m saying about mesmers is that DE is a must trait in 99% of decent builds.
Call me fool but imo it should be removed and maybe close generation should be compensated in some other way, either changing some traits or weapon skills or as a class mechanic.
Sadly I don’t think they will ever agree to make it as a class mechanic. Yes it is kinda disgusting how heavily mesmer’s rely on this one trait and I think I know of only one maybe two builds (phantasm or interupt) where it isn’t a must have and even then most people still choose to take it anyway.
Remember that only last big balance patch anet wanted to nerf this trait so that you couldn’t spawn more clones if you already had the maximum number in play already.
In which case I can’t see them making this a core mechanic. However having a new or otherwise reliable source of clone generation would be a nice change.
Order of Intoxication [PSY]
If i could choose, i would put it as a base mechaninc effect with a 10s ICD and maybe applying that nerf so that it could not be used to cause a clone death.
If i could choose, i would put it as a base mechaninc effect with a 10s ICD and maybe applying that nerf so that it could not be used to cause a clone death.
I think you need to rethink this. This would make the mesmer class non existent in spvp and everywhere :p. I think it’s weird that you want the only trait that makes mesmer viable in all lands (pvp pve wvwvw) to get nerfed.
Ferox, multiclass’r, ESL’r
Team Lead For Radioactive [dK] B Team
Team Lead For Radioactive [dK] B Team
Nerfed but always present… which means that you could not spend 4 points in dueling and still have a good clone generation.
At that point mesmers would be far from non existant. It would open space for many different builds.
I’m waiting to see those patch notes preview, even if i doubt there will be much good stuff, i hope i’m wrong.
Nerfed but always present… which means that you could not spend 4 points in dueling and still have a good clone generation.
No, it simply means you’d be unable to spend 4 points in dueling and have good clone generation. The clone generation from DE precisely how it is is absolutely essential to allowing mesmers to work in any remotely functional form.
DE is an overrated trait for Phantasm Mesmers, but very strong for shatter and clone death builds. I have not run DE as part of my WvW roaming build in about a month and do alright. I see nothing wrong with a trait being very good for some builds and an ok option for others, that’s pretty much the definition of a well designed trait. Plus any uncompensated changes to DE would erase shatter as a play style.
Nerfed but always present… which means that you could not spend 4 points in dueling and still have a good clone generation.
No, it simply means you’d be unable to spend 4 points in dueling and have good clone generation. The clone generation from DE precisely how it is is absolutely essential to allowing mesmers to work in any remotely functional form.
I do not agree, it would just require a bit more attention to the number of illusions you have up in order to spawn a new one, but i dont see it so catastrophic as you say.
I do not agree, it would just require a bit more attention to the number of illusions you have up in order to spawn a new one, but i dont see it so catastrophic as you say.
DPS and utility from shatter builds is directly tied to the rate of clone generation, unless you can generate 3 clones/shatter faster than the shatter CD’s are up this will be a nerf to the shatter play style. This is possible against some foes but not when engaged against heavy AE classes or multiple players. Unless I completely missed a meta change, shatter builds are rare in WvW and barely hanging on in top sPvP. In addition clone death builds are not popular in sPvP tournaments and it is generally agreed that you can walk away from most of them in WvW. So if shatter does not need a nerf and clone death is negligible, why would you want this?
Nefing a play style will not increase build diversity. If you are thinking of increasing clone generation in another area to compensate, I would be interested to hear your idea. That is the only way I can imagine a DE nerf being good for Mesmer builds and diversity.
I do not agree, it would just require a bit more attention to the number of illusions you have up in order to spawn a new one, but i dont see it so catastrophic as you say.
DPS and utility from shatter builds is directly tied to the rate of clone generation, unless you can generate 3 clones/shatter faster than the shatter CD’s are up this will be a nerf to the shatter play style. This is possible against some foes but not when engaged against heavy AE classes or multiple players. Unless I completely missed a meta change, shatter builds are rare in WvW and barely hanging on in top sPvP. In addition clone death builds are not popular in sPvP tournaments and it is generally agreed that you can walk away from most of them in WvW. So if shatter does not need a nerf and clone death is negligible, why would you want this?
Nefing a play style will not increase build diversity. If you are thinking of increasing clone generation in another area to compensate, I would be interested to hear your idea. That is the only way I can imagine a DE nerf being good for Mesmer builds and diversity.
Also positioning is very difficult otherwise. Lockdown uses it to chain daze. Shatter uses it extensively to 6 clone shatter. Hell the lost asura fractal we use it to body block projectiles with clones. Something you cant control with any weapon other than staff (greatsword, and scepter put the clone near but not at a definite spot).
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
I got quite a long experience with mesmer class, I tested many builds, probably all of them (not considering each slight variation), and still every time i try to find out some different build which could be good for tPvP i find myself stuck with those 4 points in Dueling.
Dont you guys feel like that deceptive evasion is crippling mesmer build diversity ?
Its just a too good trait to give it up for anything else in any build involving shatter…. and well, mesmer is mainly about shattering.
Allow me to explain.
When a Mesmer enters a fight he’s hopping in on a single limb, his right leg. After that he needs to quickly grow his other leg and two arms, these are represented by his his clones/phantasms. Any Mesmer can enter a fight without DE, but without DE he’s going to be fighting most of the battle either without one of his legs, an arm, two arms, or both arms and his second leg much of the time. So yes, DE is utterly essential for Mesmers because a Mesmer who can’t maintain high, on demand clones/phantasms on the field during a fight is the same as a Mesmer showing up to fight without limbs. Until clone on dodge becomes a class feature, or clone producing skills are dramatically reduces in CD, this will never change.
Nerfed but always present… which means that you could not spend 4 points in dueling and still have a good clone generation.
No, it simply means you’d be unable to spend 4 points in dueling and have good clone generation. The clone generation from DE precisely how it is is absolutely essential to allowing mesmers to work in any remotely functional form.
I do not agree, it would just require a bit more attention to the number of illusions you have up in order to spawn a new one, but i dont see it so catastrophic as you say.
You must have never fought anything with a cleaving AA, nor understand how Ether Fest (or many traits, including shatters) function.
If i could choose, i would put it as a base mechaninc effect with a 10s ICD and maybe applying that nerf so that it could not be used to cause a clone death.
The other thing is, DE’s “ICD” is tied to energy. No energy no dodge, no dodge no clone. We can’t continually produce clones with DE as we can’t continually dodge. Your ICD is unnecessary.
The funny thing is I hardly use DE. As good as it is I don’t use it. It does not fit my play style. I do play a lot of PVP and could hold my own against most class without using DE.
Same goes for PVE, the NPC are not the clever enough to take it.
But to change it and make it base mechanic and give it a 10s ICD will really nelf a lot of the build and play style that requires this skill.
@Ross has a very valid point. The skill is already well designed
This — “No energy no dodge, no dodge no clone. We can’t continually produce clones with DE as we can’t continually dodge”
The dev should really look in to why most mez rely PU.
Its not well designed cause its a must have. I dont know what build you are running not to need DE, probably its a phantasm build, otherwise its inferior to any similar build including DE..
Maybe i didnt express well, cause most ppl here missed my point… i’m not asking for a nerf to DE, what i would like is not to be forced to it; be it with an increased clone gen somewhere else or a revised version of De included in class mechanic.
They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?
Best possible thing would be make it baseline, but as others have said I don’t see that happening (not like moving it is super likely either, but more likely at least imo).
Edit: Only real issue I see moving it is that you’d have shatter mesmers able to take IP, DE and PU, leading to a probably broken OP build. Personally I’d like to see DE moved to illusions and PU nerfed a little to compensate. Imagine the build diversity that would open up for us: Our core shatter traits (IP and DE) would be in one tree, and we could tweak and flesh out our shatter build in a number of different ways. It would allow for interrupt shatter builds, condition shatter builds, probably lots of creative builds making more serious use of our class mechanic. It’s stupid that most of the top builds for mesmers right now don’t really involve using our F1-F4 skills at all, I mean seriously doesn’t that indicate a problem?
(edited by MSFone.3026)
Maybe instead of changing DE, give us an alternative to the trait. Just leave DE as it is but give us another one that does something like “create an additional clone on illusion skills/clone generating skills”. That would need some balancing of course. Probably make it a Grandmaster Trait. Or give us more clone generation in weapons?
I dont think nerfing DE is the way to go. We need more diversity through good trait options and not through nerfing all down to the same level.
They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?
Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.
Well, to be fair, your original post consisted of mostly proposing to nerf Deceptive Evasion with no other suggestions of buffing other aspects of the Mesmer.
I can see where you’re going, but a nerf to DE can absolutely wreck a shatter build. Shatter, in my opinion, is already requires a high amount of skill to be effective in the (PvP) meta tight now. Thieves do what shatter Mesmers do better, with higher mobility an survivability. I can only think of 1 thing the Mesmer can do better then a thief, boon ripping (maybe) . But this is going off topic.
I understand why this thread is on fire, and why it’s getting hate. Perhaps change the original post to at least resemble a proposal of a buff?
Sorry for the typos….
I’m usually typing on my phone
I’m usually typing on my phone
If anet would only change DE to be core mechanic.It will do.I wouldnt need anything else.Perfect!
They owe us a really good buff!
They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?
Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.
I think you’re exaggerating a little here: It certainly doesn’t kitten shatter, a current build, and it would make torment shatter builds viable, which many people would like. Moving it to illusions would be a buff to most condi builds imo and open up more condi diversity. It wouldn’t matter at all to phantasm builds either. Maybe it would be a nerf to some rarely used power builds. So no, moving it either down in dueling or to 4 or below in illusions would not only kitten current builds or simply move the problem.
They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?
Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.
I think you’re exaggerating a little here: It certainly doesn’t kitten shatter, a current build, and it would make torment shatter builds viable, which many people would like. Moving it to illusions would be a buff to most condi builds imo and open up more condi diversity. It wouldn’t matter at all to phantasm builds either. Maybe it would be a nerf to some rarely used power builds. So no, moving it either down in dueling or to 4 or below in illusions would not only kitten current builds or simply move the problem.
You’ve missed the point though. No matter where DE is in the trait tree it has to be taken. Mesmers without clones on will (with DE) regardless of build are infinitely weaker, which is true only with the exception of a few nitch builds currently. If it were 10 deep in Illusions, then any build, or potential viable build that consists of all points in the first four lines (three of which have, generally speaking, most of our best traits we want access to) are suddenly short 10 already dedicated to Illusions, and thus are kitten from what they could have been.
The issue is the same. Build variety is shunted regardless of where DE sits, whether adapt, major, or grandmaster of any traitline because the trait is so crucial to Mesmers as a core mechanic. It makes or breaks mesmers power, survivability, and versatility.
They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?
Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.
I think you’re exaggerating a little here: It certainly doesn’t kitten shatter, a current build, and it would make torment shatter builds viable, which many people would like. Moving it to illusions would be a buff to most condi builds imo and open up more condi diversity. It wouldn’t matter at all to phantasm builds either. Maybe it would be a nerf to some rarely used power builds. So no, moving it either down in dueling or to 4 or below in illusions would not only kitten current builds or simply move the problem.
You’ve missed the point though. No matter where DE is in the trait tree it has to be taken. Mesmers without clones on will (with DE) regardless of build are infinitely weaker, which is true only with the exception of a few nitch builds currently. If it were 10 deep in Illusions, then any build, or potential viable build that consists of all points in the first four lines (three of which have, generally speaking, most of our best traits we want access to) are suddenly short 10 already dedicated to Illusions, and thus are kitten from what they could have been.
The issue is the same. Build variety is shunted regardless of where DE sits, whether adapt, major, or grandmaster of any traitline because the trait is so crucial to Mesmers as a core mechanic. It makes or breaks mesmers power, survivability, and versatility.
Oh ah agreed. Yes no matter where it is it must be taken, moving it doesn’t solve that, I agree. I do think that moving it down makes it less of a pain, because then its 2 mandatory instead of 4. Yes this will hurt some builds, but will help more than it hurts imo and so increase build diversity. But ya it only quantitatively changes a perverse situation, not qualitatively fixes it.
Obviously what we’d all love is for them to make it baseline or buff our clone production by an equivalent amount and remove DE, so that mesmers wouldn’t have to trait our resource production just to have it at the minimum amount needed to perform.
They just need to move it, either down a tier or somewhere in the illusions line. Yes this would be a huge buff; are we not in need of one?
Moving it down a tier and/or to another line either gimps current builds, or simply moves the problem from “4 in dueling” to “10 in something else”. Illusions for example might be great for shatter builds (to which there is only one viable shatter build) at the expense of virtually anything else you could imagine.
I think you’re exaggerating a little here: It certainly doesn’t kitten shatter, a current build, and it would make torment shatter builds viable, which many people would like. Moving it to illusions would be a buff to most condi builds imo and open up more condi diversity. It wouldn’t matter at all to phantasm builds either. Maybe it would be a nerf to some rarely used power builds. So no, moving it either down in dueling or to 4 or below in illusions would not only kitten current builds or simply move the problem.
You’ve missed the point though. No matter where DE is in the trait tree it has to be taken. Mesmers without clones on will (with DE) regardless of build are infinitely weaker, which is true only with the exception of a few nitch builds currently. If it were 10 deep in Illusions, then any build, or potential viable build that consists of all points in the first four lines (three of which have, generally speaking, most of our best traits we want access to) are suddenly short 10 already dedicated to Illusions, and thus are kitten from what they could have been.
The issue is the same. Build variety is shunted regardless of where DE sits, whether adapt, major, or grandmaster of any traitline because the trait is so crucial to Mesmers as a core mechanic. It makes or breaks mesmers power, survivability, and versatility.
Oh ah agreed. Yes no matter where it is it must be taken, moving it doesn’t solve that, I agree. I do think that moving it down makes it less of a pain, because then its 2 mandatory instead of 4. Yes this will hurt some builds, but will help more than it hurts imo and so increase build diversity. But ya it only quantitatively changes a perverse situation, not qualitatively fixes it.
Obviously what we’d all love is for them to make it baseline or buff our clone production by an equivalent amount and remove DE, so that mesmers wouldn’t have to trait our resource production just to have it at the minimum amount needed to perform.
Remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR5iFRRH5SI