Guild Wars 2

It’s quite clear that at the beginning, this elite skill was inspired and designed to behave just like a real gravity well in physics. It has the gravity feel to it as it attracts, drags, sucks in, pulls stuff towards its center.

To add a bit more flavour, the devs went further and added a float effect when the well expires, simulating a zero gravity state.

This original design concept, imo, was teemed with creativity and kudos to whoever (Robert Gee, sir?) came up with it.

In terms of implementation however, the skill was trying to do too much. In addition to the pulsing CC effect, it also deals dmg and gives Stability to allies. Here lies the problem: purity of purpose and ofc the balance issue when it comes to PvP.

Recently, the devs saw fit to remove the pulsing pull effect entirely leaving the elite skill only the Float effect which is basically a 2s Stun with a different animation. From a creative design, once again, the skill is dumbed down to a mediocre and generic AoE Stun which has by far the most obvious tell.

Ok rant’s over.

Anyway, I just want to dedicate an entire new thread for this elite because I don’t want the original concept of GW got prematurely killed by PvP balance blunders and I want to gather discussions and suggestions from Mesmer community.

So how would you like to change GW to make it balanced while keeping the original pull and float effects?

I go first
1) Increase cast time to 2s or 3s and root yourself before you can lay down the well?
2) Remove the unnecessary dmg portion and stability parts of the skill?
3) Increase cooldown to around 180-200s?

Attached are pics showing the original and recently changed skill descriptions.
Please discuss.

Why restrict it to “keep the original pull and float effect”?

Anyways. I suggest making each pulse Chill and drain Endurance from enemies, that makes it difficult for them to escape the area before the Float pops.

Embolism.8106:

Why restrict it to “keep the original pull and float effect”?

Because the pull effect defines the very skill name. The name conveys the identity of the skill and the first step to communicate to players what it is supposed to do.

In a similar way, Mass Invisibility is a skill that gives Stealth (not Stability) to many people.

The float effect, as I explained above, its so good of a creative addition to the skill; it would a shame to see it go.

I actually think Chill and Endurance drain to be more thematically fitting, like you’re increasing gravity in an area (slower movement, unable to dodge) and then suddenly reversing it (Float).

I vote keep original pull and float effect and increase CD.

Increasing CD doesn’t necessarily do anything for the Chronomancer since you can have any skill on F5’s CD.

I was looking forward to possibly using this before the nerf. I think if you consider the other elites, some kind of AoE CC and damage seems like the missing thing. (Moa is single target cc, mass invis is multi-person defense, time warp is multi-person augment with small penalty to foes).

So I think I would change it just slightly from the original design. It’s still 3 pulses.
- Pulse 1 – small damage, clear visual effect
- Pulse 2 – an instant pull into the center plus small damage (there was a second to avoid this)
- Pulse 3 – small damage, if you got caught in the pull, you have a second to stun break and get out
One second later, the final pulse which is larger damage and float.

I like keeping the stability effect and would trade a longer cooldown to have that stay on the skill.

I understand the reasoning for removing the pulsing pull, but something else should be in place instead so people can’t just walk out of it. Well of Calamity has Cripple, Gravity Well should at least have that if not Chill; given it’s an Elite.

I have an…idea. I don’t know if the tech even exists for this yet, but may as well mention it.

Gravity well would cause an aoe pulling effect. This effect would not interact with stability at all, it wouldn’t cause a disable. Instead, it would be as if you were on a treadmill that was pointed towards the center of the aoe area. This effect would scale up towards the center, so if you were at the outside, you could just walk out reasonably easily. If you got to the very center, it would be pulling you faster than normal running, so you’d have to dodge and then walk out. At the end, the normal float.

This way it’s still an interesting suction, but doesn’t actually lock you with hard cc.

Robert Gee.9246:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.

Yeah, I can see that. Removing the pulls ends up causing the opposite problem, though, in that the CC portion of the skill is too easy to dodge out of now. And I don’t think the pulsing damage is threatening enough on its own to make the skill useful for area denial.

GW feels like a real schmuck bait skill right now. If you don’t know what it does and stand around for the whole thing, it feels really powerful. But anybody who does know what it does goes completely unpunished by it.

I like the “duality” concept that inspired the wells, but at the same time I think skills —especially elites -- need a clear use case. Time Warp is obvious, use it for stomps or to boost your team’s DPS. MI is for escaping or engaging from stealth. Moa is for turning people into Moas.

But what’s the use case for Gravity Well? Are you using it for a chance at a 2s stun if your opponent is dumb enough to stand in it? Or are you using it for pulsing stability?

I already covered the former case above — it’s schmuck bait, nobody who’s any good at the game will fall for it, and it’s never going to be better than Time Warp for PvE. The latter case is maybe useful in some situations, but it’s also really underwhelming for an Elite skill. Especially since Well of Precog already gives Stability on a shorter cooldown.

Fay.2357:

I have an…idea. I don’t know if the tech even exists for this yet, but may as well mention it.

Gravity well would cause an aoe pulling effect. This effect would not interact with stability at all, it wouldn’t cause a disable. Instead, it would be as if you were on a treadmill that was pointed towards the center of the aoe area. This effect would scale up towards the center, so if you were at the outside, you could just walk out reasonably easily. If you got to the very center, it would be pulling you faster than normal running, so you’d have to dodge and then walk out. At the end, the normal float.

This way it’s still an interesting suction, but doesn’t actually lock you with hard cc.

Remember revenant has the enemy teleport stuff too, which I believe ignores stability and doesn’t interrupt. Seems like a good fit to me

How about the effect triggering if you attempt to leave the AoE, it pulls you to the center, however this can be avoided if you dodge roll out of have stability. It keeps them inside, but at the same time its not crazy CC spam, and has counter play, but at the same time it leaves room for interesting plays by the Mesmer.

Fay.2357:

I have an…idea. I don’t know if the tech even exists for this yet, but may as well mention it.

Gravity well would cause an aoe pulling effect. This effect would not interact with stability at all, it wouldn’t cause a disable. Instead, it would be as if you were on a treadmill that was pointed towards the center of the aoe area. This effect would scale up towards the center, so if you were at the outside, you could just walk out reasonably easily. If you got to the very center, it would be pulling you faster than normal running, so you’d have to dodge and then walk out. At the end, the normal float.

This way it’s still an interesting suction, but doesn’t actually lock you with hard cc.

I love this idea. It would really feel unique.

But as you said there is probably no tech for that, so in the meanwhile, I still think the first pull should have remained. This way, you put all people in, and if they have no stun break, they will probably take the large damage and the float at the end, while any stun break would give you enough time to go out.

PS: I am super happy that Robert Gee has been super active on both necro and mesmer forums today and that this was somewhat triggered by one of my post

Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.
The full duration of the disable ended up being around 5 seconds total, which might be okay for a single target skill, but was pretty out of line for a skill that could hit 5 targets.
The skill had a lot of different things going on and was difficult to parse for those who saw it for the first time.

Which of these three things have anything to do with enemies that are not players? Has anyone told the dev team that there are actually PvE elements in this game? Liek, there are actually a ton of things to do in this game that have absolutely nothing to do with how another player would react to them. Maybe design a liiiiiitle gameplay with that in mind? Just some of the time? Like maybe five minutes per day?

Because the pull effect defines the very skill name. The name conveys the identity of the skill and the first step to communicate to players what it is supposed to do.

In a similar way, Mass Invisibility is a skill that gives Stealth (not Stability) to many people.

The float effect, as I explained above, its so good of a creative addition to the skill; it would a shame to see it go.

Agreed. If they can’t figure out a way to restore the pull effect, then they should scrap the Elite entirely and go an entirely different direction on it. The pull effect is what it is, it isn’t itself without it.

Robert Gee.9246:

We discovered pretty early in testing the following problems with the first version:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.

And yet slick shoes are ok on half the cooldown?

Not saying gravity well wasn’t op.

Thx Robert for posting. I always love to see the reasoning behind decisions.

I’m planning to test Chronomancer this weekend, so I’ll try GW as it is.

Here’s another option that feels doable with the current technology and might be fair:
- First pulse = 2 sec chill
- Second pulse = 2sec chill plus direct damage
- Third pulse = pull five targets to center and float for 2 sec (the float effect is just cool) and good direct damage (and remove stability effect for allies but give all affected targets weakness for 5 seconds)

So you would need to work to keep a target in the space for the third pulse to land, but if you do, it’s a nice payoff.

Should probably rename the skill and update the description. It still says “When it expires, the well floats enemies caught in it.” which doesn’t sound right if they can just walk away from the it without any problem. As for the name, I think “Easy To Avoid Anti-Gravity Lift” might work.

Adding ideas from previous posters

-First Pulse = 2 sec chill like condition, except if possible you could remove the skill cool down portion as it doesn’t match the skill. Nebula is condensing into a star

-Second Pulse = 2 sec. Perhaps the movement speed could be reduced by a larger percentage as you move closer to the center of the well. Start with 66% or so, like chill, at the perimeter (not sure how the numbers would work) and increase it as you move in. Gravity well is a star now.

-Third Pulse = Pull five targets and float for 2 seconds. It became a black hole now. You crossed the event horizon. There is no escape. Mua haha!

Everything else can remain the same or the numbers could be tweaked.
This should make it so skilled players can still get out. It also promotes the idea that its better to get out earlier before it grows more powerfull. Thanks for asking for feedback!

Robert Gee.9246:

I hope that helps. I’m looking forward to reading your feedback on the Chronomancer from the BWE!

Thanks for the feedback but the issue is the change appears to make it functionally useless, and not an elite people will use.

So translation: The first version of the skill was extremely OP and needed to be nerfed as to not break the game.

Fay.2357:

I have an…idea. I don’t know if the tech even exists for this yet, but may as well mention it.

Gravity well would cause an aoe pulling effect. This effect would not interact with stability at all, it wouldn’t cause a disable. Instead, it would be as if you were on a treadmill that was pointed towards the center of the aoe area. This effect would scale up towards the center, so if you were at the outside, you could just walk out reasonably easily. If you got to the very center, it would be pulling you faster than normal running, so you’d have to dodge and then walk out. At the end, the normal float.

This way it’s still an interesting suction, but doesn’t actually lock you with hard cc.

I love that idea.

Just adding float is not enough in my opinion.
what could be done is to mix the effects, maybe 1 daze, 1 pull and then the float. but only seems is lackluster.

I would just like to see all Wells made so that they can be ended early. As it stands, most of our wells have effects that really need to be timed ‘well’ but which is difficult to do with the current iteration.

Simply give each Well a longer duration (6-8s) and have the skill flip to a collapsible version of the Well when cast. Using the second skill destroys the well and triggers its End effect (Float, Blur, Heal, etc). However, increase the potency of the end effect based on how long the Well ran before being triggered, having it reach max potency a few seconds before the skill ends naturally.

This allows the skills to be a little less predictable, adds in some skillful play aspects to the abilities, and even makes them better fit the Chronomancer concept.

I’m sorry Robert, but I don’t think anyone will pick gravity well over time warp at its current state. Even with the vastly reduced CD, gravity well simply doesn’t provide game changer potential for that elite spot, while the 10s quickness and slow provided by time warp can mean a lot in all PvE, PvP, and WvW modes.

A much simpler way to make it useful is to make the first pulse pulls. The rest of the pulses only inflict cripple thus provides counterplay via stun break or dodge/escape 1-3 seconds before the float hits (which is not a hard task either). As it stands right now that float will never hit anyone who knows how to walk out of the 240 range red circle in 3 seconds. That’s way to much counterplay for an elite skill. The first pulse pull will also benefit interrupt mesmers with CI, who can potentially root players with a careful timing of that skill. Thus provide skillful play and trait synergies. Counterplay will still be there with just a condi cleanse, which is a reasonable trade against a 90s elite.

Dastion.3106:

I would just like to see all Wells made so that they can be ended early. As it stands, most of our wells have effects that really need to be timed ‘well’ but which is difficult to do with the current iteration.

Simply give each Well a longer duration (6-8s) and have the skill flip to a collapsible version of the Well when cast. Using the second skill destroys the well and triggers its End effect (Float, Blur, Heal, etc). However, increase the potency of the end effect based on how long the Well ran before being triggered, having it reach max potency a few seconds before the skill ends naturally.

This allows the skills to be a little less predictable, adds in some skillful play aspects to the abilities, and even makes them better fit the Chronomancer concept.

I know gameplay over aesthetics and all that, but the ticking clockface thing isn’t going to work if this is the case.

Robert Gee.9246:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.

Would it be enough to change this if the pull happened only on the first tick of the well? So the flow of the skill would be pull then float, not pull and float. That or then adding a debilitating condition of some kind such as slow to replace the pull (even if Mesmer already has an AoE slow).

I agree that the pull needs to be restored, even if it’s just a single pull at the start or near the end. The pull was what made it unique; a 2 second CC with a 3 second wind-up on a 90 second CD is simply rather useless.

My main problem with this is how Tempest’s Cyclone still has the potential to pull the same target multiple times (as seen here: https://youtu.be/sIQNnE6LyX4?t=15m45s), while also being unblockable, without a real target limit and on a 25s cd.

Some more interesting ideas in this thread.

Robert Gee.9246:

The first two factors in combination created a very oppressive skill which had a very limited number of response options. The third issue wasn’t as important as the first two, but was indicative of the skill being overly-complex and needing some simplification.

I understand that reasoning, although I’m not sure I agree with the solution.
The way I see it, the actually problematic part of the pull was that you got interrupted every pulse, right? Just getting moved around isn’t really that big a deal apart from the main reason we’d want it, that is to gather people for AE barrages.

Recently, Heroes of the Storm did a change where displacement CC (push and pull) would no longer interrupt skills which didn’t depend on being immobile. That is to say, if you can move while casting them, then getting forcibly moved doesn’t break it.
It seems to be that GW2 might benefit from a similar change in regards to two specific points:

• Push and pull skills can be made much more relevant (that is ,stronger) in regards to actually moving enemies to positions where you want them.
• Obviously given the thread, it’d allow Gravity Well to continue being, well, a Gravity Well. :P

(edit)
Also, I agree I’d rather lose the float than the pull. Without the pull, the name feels entirely misplaced, even if yes, I get it, it inverts gravity at the end. But really since it doesn’t throw enemies high enough to receive falling damage, it feels pointless.

OTOH, if you do change it so it does throw enemies high enough to suffer 25% or so of their HP as falling damage, I’ll be all over that. It’d be one of the most unique and most creative skills in the game!

• Falling Damage traits would entirely mitigate it.
• It would work indoors, but you need to check ceiling height. I like that as a concept.
• It’s very obvious to anyone affected by they’re taking damage now.

I know gameplay over aesthetics and all that, but the ticking clockface thing isn’t going to work if [you could finish the move manually]

It possibly could, all they’d need to do is be able to speed up the clock hands, so like it slowly spins towards “noon” and then if you activate it at the 7 o’clock mark, the hands whip around quickly to the noon point right as it activates. I have no idea if their system is that flexible though and it wouldn’t be worth reworking it if it isn’t.

Robert Gee.9246:

1. The full duration of the disable ended up being around 5 seconds total, which might be okay for a single target skill, but was pretty out of line for a skill that could hit 5 targets.

Maybe just remove the float at the end and bring back the pulling pulses? I realize those would still be kind of oppressive when they’re this close together, but it would leave the time total of the disable at around 3 seconds (which sounds more in line for an aoe elite) and it would restore the pulling mechanic that the skill name suggests.

Ok I haven’t read all the suggestions, but what if the well causes 1 pull on the first or second tick, so that you will get hit by the float if you don’t have a stunbreak or stability. So instead of removing all the pulls, just reduce the amount of them so you have time to get away or dodge. Imo would be much better than something you can just walk out of.

Or you could just change the pull to displace (similar to Revenant), which does not interrupt yet keeps enemies inside the well.

Iavra.8510:

Or you could just change the pull to displace (similar to Revenant), which does not interrupt yet keeps enemies inside the well.

just what i was going to say, make it displace to center like if the enemy tries to run away it goes back in time and displaces him to the center again, then final pulse would be the float so in other words this skill would warp time and space, much cooler, lesser problems about cc and keeping somewhat the original idea

Robert Gee.9246:

-snip-

Thank you for taking the time to reply to us.
As you can see, most of us here appreciate this kind of openness and transparency to help us understand the reasons behind big changes in mesmer skills/traits like this one.

Based on the responses in the thread so far, it seems we totally understand and agree with your explanation as how the original quadruple (4x) CC effects in a short amount of time is hard to recover and oppressive.

However, on the other hand, we still want to keep the pull effect (maybe just trigger once) to:
1) keep it in theme with the skill name
2) make the skill somewhat viable and threatening

Many have suggested wonderful ideas and I’d like to keep this thread going as we go through the BWE this weekend.
Hopefully by then we can provide even more constructive feedback.

After reading through all the suggestions before, I personally like Pyro (Fay)’s idea the best if the tech is there to help implement the concept. Mini teleport without disable the enemies seems feasible too.

My 2cents, how about:
1st pulse: apply Cripple for 1s (soft cc)
2nd pulse: apply Chill for 1s (soft cc)
3rd pulse: pull in (hard cc)
4th pulse: float (hard cc)

This way it gives the build-up feel as the effect becomes more and more potent towards the end but give players time to react at the beginning.

Iavra.8510:

Or you could just change the pull to displace (similar to Revenant), which does not interrupt yet keeps enemies inside the well.

Exactly this. Keeps the “trap-like” nature of the skill, but without the repeated CC.

I feel like a reasonable middle ground would be to make the gravity well pull on activation once, then the rest of the skill works as currently designed. CD of the skill could be adjusted accordingly after that.

I know it doesn’t follow the overall well design, but I feel like such things can be bent if its for balance. It would work kinda like the heal well.

Just throwing another one out there: What if the pulses immobilise enemies for a short duration (<= 1s)? Less flavourful than getting yanked toward the centre, but it doesn’t interrupt/stun and affected enemies can still blink out. And it’s still a “gravity” effect, too.

The immobilize suggestion is pretty funny – makes me wonder if you can actually stunbreak a float given it could be like a midair immobilize and disable most skills.

tobascodagama.2961:

Just throwing another one out there: What if the pulses immobilise enemies for a short duration (<= 1s)? Less flavourful than getting yanked toward the centre, but it doesn’t interrupt/stun and affected enemies can still blink out. And it’s still a “gravity” effect, too.

Problem is you can’t dodge while Immobilised and the frequency means cleansing won’t give you a chance to dodge. Sort of the same issue with CC and stunbreakers.

So..new elite is a well with weak dmg, long cooldown and 2 sec of hard cc after 3 sec?.. ehh.

In pve, its not worth for trash mobs cuz long cd and there are other, better ways of dmg mitigation/stability. For bosses its not worth since even signet of domination(util skill) is straight out better.

In pvp ..yea i see how people stand in my elite for 3 sec. And even then simple break-stun/stab destroys all advantage.

In wvw, for roaming it looks useless. For zerg fights, even more since it works only for 5 targets and in big zerg there will be a lot of stability to chew through anyway.

…its not worth elite slot in its current state. In fact, i would not take it if it was utility skill cuz there are no practical applications for it in pve and its effects are so kitten easy to avoid/negate in pvp/wvw.

Im gonna test it i guess, have some fun with floating moa and risen chickens.. seems like it needs some serious buffs already.

It’s not worth it in PvE because if a CC-able mob is in the well upon cast it is not going to be there 3 seconds later. Long dead by then.

nearlight.3064:

So translation: The first version of the skill was extremely OP and needed to be nerfed as to not break the game.

Yabbut it needn’t have been nerfed into the ground. This is the problem with balance in this game, stuff gets over nerfed.

keenlam.4753:

I go first
1) Increase cast time to 2s or 3s and root yourself before you can lay down the well?
2) Remove the unnecessary dmg portion and stability parts of the skill?
3) Increase cooldown to around 180-200s?

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

A much simpler way to make it useful is to make the first pulse pulls. The rest of the pulses only inflict cripple thus provides counterplay via stun break or dodge/escape 1-3 seconds before the float hits (which is not a hard task either). As it stands right now that float will never hit anyone who knows how to walk out of the 240 range red circle in 3 seconds. That’s way to much counterplay for an elite skill. The first pulse pull will also benefit interrupt mesmers with CI, who can potentially root players with a careful timing of that skill. Thus provide skillful play and trait synergies. Counterplay will still be there with just a condi cleanse, which is a reasonable trade against a 90s elite.

I like the idea of pull at initial cast then float at the end for a quick fix but it still doesn’t feel elite.

The OP #1 gave me the idea of just making it a channel like Meteor shower for 3 seconds and keep the pulsing pull. So each second of channeling would pull and then float as the channel ends.

It would require teammates to pressure/interrupt the mesmer or apply stability. Halting strike could be “problematic” but then I say learn to play. Don’t spam skills in that elite well. It would let phantasms get an extra attack in on someone but would not allow for a full burst from the mesmer to make the “perma” cc unbearable. Damage could be reduced a bit as that would not be it’s main focus; self cc on mesmer but aoe cc on enemies.

For specs, chrono and domination is required for halting strike to “get out of hand.” So what else? dueling or chaos for the “mandatory” DE or CI? I don’t think it would be OP then.

Robert Gee.9246:

I’d like to provide a little context for this discussion as I think it’s important to understand what led us to change this skill in the first place. I’m going to avoid talking about my personal opinion here as I’d like all the feedback from this BWE to be as unbiased as possible.

We discovered pretty early in testing the following problems with the first version:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.
2. The full duration of the disable ended up being around 5 seconds total, which might be okay for a single target skill, but was pretty out of line for a skill that could hit 5 targets.
3. The skill had a lot of different things going on and was difficult to parse for those who saw it for the first time.

The first two factors in combination created a very oppressive skill which had a very limited number of response options. The third issue wasn’t as important as the first two, but was indicative of the skill being overly-complex and needing some simplification.

I hope that helps. I’m looking forward to reading your feedback on the Chronomancer from the BWE!

thanks Robert for your explanation.

I could agree with you that GW was in first place OP. The problem is that GW, in its current status, is no longer an “elite skill”, and the 90 secs CD doesn’t help either.

Having said that, I hope we will be able to see a few tweaks in this skill before HoT release, in order to pair up GW with MI and TW.

I dont understand the nerf. Doesn’t the Dragonhunter elite trap pulse pulls as well? Did that one get changed too?

No, because its guardian. Feel my Wrath > Time Warp, so Dragon’s Maw > Gravity Well.
.. i know its qq’ing but couldnt stop myself.

It’s a Pull + Barrier, which is somehow totally different than three Pulls (slight hyperbole, it actually is different in some significant mechanical ways) and also not something that could ever be replicated on any other skill.