Guild Wars 2

Anet has reworked this trait and bumped it up to grandmaster level.

Increased power while wielding a greatsword. Reduces recharge on greatsword skills whenever you or an illusion hits with Spatial Surge.
Recharge reduction per hit 2%
Power +100

At first glance, my impression about this trait is that while interesting, its a bit underwhelming.
Why?
1) It only works for 1 specific type of weapon.
2) GS and the bonus stat suggests it’s for power builds.
3) It promotes you and your clones spamming autoattacks. So clearly not optimal for either shatter or phantasm builds.

So like its a REALLY oddball trait.

Furthermore, compared to other clones we have, gs clones are near to useless when left alive. (Sword clones inflict vulnerability and rip boons, scepter and staff clones inflict dmg conditions.)

So is this gm trait useless in the end?
Its a bit silly to judge the trait on its own without considering its synergy to other traits we have, especially the new ones.

As it turns out, gs clones are actually very good at stacking bleeds (with Sharper Images minor trait) as few of us experimented in the past. What a crazy experiment it was indeed.

So suddenly, u have this interesting synergy between the new Greatsword Training + Sharper Images + the new Confusing Combatants.
Your gs clones can now stack both bleeds and confusion when they spam aa, which in turn speed up cds on your gs skills. And being 1200 range and having fastest attack rate, these clones are super annoying to kill if you can spread them around, far from one another and from your opponent.

Still, some issues remain:
1) You need some control on your clone placement to achieve the tactic i just mentioned.
2) GS skills are pure power in nature. So you dont use GS to its full potential if you want to run a full condi build.
3) Cover conditions, as in most condi builds, you would want some sort of cover conditions so that your main dmg conditions stick stubbornly on your opponent.

1) 1st issue can be easily solved by Deceptive Evasion and Mirror Images skill.

2) 2nd issue suggests maybe u can try a hybrid approach. But this means u need a reliable way to stack mights.
So lets have a look at our options to stack might:
- GS#2 (Mirror Blade) at melee range, u can easily get a constant 12 might stacks. Even better, you can use this skill more often (less than 8s cd).
- Might on Interrupt with Chaotic Interruption

3) For cover conditions, using Staff as 2nd weaponset would help with this. Also, Chaotic Interruption is yet another great synergy for this build concept. And don’t forget, with iElasticity made baseline, Staff on its own is already a potent condi weapon.

So in the end, this gm trait MIGHT play an interesting role to give birth to a new build type completely, GS/Staff condi hybrid.
Traitwise, it could be Dom/Duel/Chaos with Greatsword Training (duh!), Deceptive Evasion and Chaotic Interruption.

It would be very funny to use our best ranged dmg weapon as a melee weapon. Why melee? Because u need those might stacks from Mirror Blade and opportunities to interupt your opponent at point blank with Diversion and iWave for even more Might.

So what u guys think of this new strange concept of a build? Is it total madness?
Please give your thoughts.
Cheers.

Aren’t GS clones spawned near the first enemy the skill 2 projectile hits? How would you position/spread the clones on a single target?

I had considered the GS as a condie weapon with this patch as well, especially since anyone who has played with IE and Staff knows it’s both really strong in testing, but usually really pretty lackluster in actual play. This is largely due to the slow traveling speed of the Staff projectiles, and GS doesn’t have that issue.

However, I don’t really see the GS GM trait playing a big role here. I was thinking about this in terms of using this aspect in either a Condi/Interrupt type build, or maybe even a Condie/MtD Shatter build.

I could see your idea making a lot of sense for a hybrid build though, so you get a little more out of that extra 100 Pow the GM trait now provides, but also the other parts of the Domination line like that yummy 10% damage bonus to vulnerable foes.

Just pondering, but yes I think GS Clones will be pretty nasty. (And notice that the new Dueling minor also applies to your own attacks, making GS AA even stronger too.)

It seems to be part of their current design model as there are not many weapon based traits that effect two non-off hand weapons (and the majority of them that do just include an underwater weapon, with I think some part of the company wished they had never released).

yea this trait is pretty garbage. i never used the current gs one, and this one is even worse. 50 power 100 power, it’s the gs that sux, and for pvp there are better traits to take. so why bother anet? give us a viable pve trait, the other 2 are pvp enough.

it’s not about the cdr – it’s about the gs. in pve gs is garbage due to the low damage and being forced to be max range. and for pvp the other 2 traits are simply amazing compared to the gs trait. there is no need for this trait to be a GMT. better replace it with something USEFUL – fuse it with the sword trait for example!

Xyonon.3987:

it’s not about the cdr – it’s about the gs. in pve gs is garbage due to the low damage and being forced to be max range. and for pvp the other 2 traits are simply amazing compared to the gs trait. there is no need for this trait to be a GMT. better replace it with something USEFUL – fuse it with the sword trait for example!

That is an interesting idea question is IF it is too strong on GS sword shatter

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-mesmer-domination-specialization.jpg

I doubt you would use the GS + Sword trait for a shatter build with those alternatives. I suggest to merge it with the sword mainly for PvE, because that’s where the mes traits lack atm. PvP, awesome.

Just FYI you can theoretically get illusionary wave down to a 7 second cooldown with this trait. I also posted elsewhere about the 13 second chaos storm!

The condition interrupt build idea seems very solid, though I’d imagine more of a sniper given it loses very little at range – you should have pretty substantial might stacks from chaotic interruption anyway.

It wouldn’t be easy for anyone to get close and the manipulation trait allows you to reflect many other long range attacks… or the signet trait pushes it in another direction entirely (more damage, defense and support, less trickery).

I kind of like the trait~ to bad its competing with things I’d much rather take. I think it should be combined with blade training or duelists discipline. Maybe perhaps with another less desirable trait like Phantasmal haste. Doesn’t for the theme but opening up options isn’t bad.

In order to make this underwhelming trait even remotely useful; you need to attack 100% of the time. Something you can rarely do. There is NO sane reason to make this lackluster trait a GM. NONE! I would rather have it remain the same at master level, and then it’s still only MeH.

I guess I shouldn’t expect much from Anet anyways in regard to the Mesmer. Oh well back to my Ranger..

that’s the 2nd thing yes – NO ONE wants to use the GS aa! we even use MoP over the aa for almost double dmg x targets. this trait is so terrible bad designed >_>

Rampager’s stats:

• High precision means that you and your clones will crit often … more bleeds & confusion
• Power means you won’t hit like a wet noodle … just won’t hit like a berzerker
• Condition damage means your conditions will hurt … not as much as Rabid/Carrion/etc. … but quite a bit.

As far as what you need to do to get the cooldown … they mentioned it was Mesmer’s autoattacks AND the clones’ autoattacks.

A Mesmer with just 3 greatsword clones (don’t know why you don’t have a phantasm, ignore that, lol) is going to have each clone hitting 3 times every ~1.5 (see wiki for: 1.4) from 1,200 range without having to worry about anti-projectiles … applying bleeding and confusion on crits.

On top of that, they will be reducing the cooldown of your Greatsword skills. Whether the Mesmer is auto-attacking or doing something else is irrelevant.

Sebrent.3625:

Rampager’s stats:

• High precision means that you and your clones will crit often … more bleeds & confusion
• Power means you won’t hit like a wet noodle … just won’t hit like a berzerker
• Condition damage means your conditions will hurt … not as much as Rabid/Carrion/etc. … but quite a bit.

As far as what you need to do to get the cooldown … they mentioned it was Mesmer’s autoattacks AND the clones’ autoattacks.

A Mesmer with just 3 greatsword clones (don’t know why you don’t have a phantasm, ignore that, lol) is going to have each clone hitting 3 times every ~1.5 (see wiki for: 1.4) from 1,200 range without having to worry about anti-projectiles … applying bleeding and confusion on crits.

On top of that, they will be reducing the cooldown of your Greatsword skills. Whether the Mesmer is auto-attacking or doing something else is irrelevant.

If you could share your Mesmer-tank build so that we all could attack 100% of the time that would be grand.
Back to the real world now. Clones get one-shotted. Clone replacements have cool downs= no damage. Mesmer’s need to run, dodge, hide, move out of ark=no damage. As all your GS cd’s count down the less percentage of this traits cd abilities become. If you just happen to lower your cds by 6-8% the first 10 seconds of a 20 second cd means you will be lowering it even less when it gets into its last 10 seconds of cd.
The current trait as it stands does a 20% cd for all GS abilities and it’s only a master. So you might want to rethink your opinion on just how great you think this new trait is going be for your build.

I am curious how fast you can get back your knock back if you got 2 clones out and cancel casted at the optimal rate.

Also is it every we pulse? Or just the first hit? It might be worth it if it’s every pulse.

@NecroN:
Don’t believe I said a thing about tanky build.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but plenty of us are able to keep our illusions alive long enough to get some autos out of them before we shatter them. If you aren’t, that’s your problem and, yes, you probably wouldn’t benefit much from this trait.

@Daishi:
That’s a darn good question … we’ll have to wait and find out, but based on the wording:

… whenever you or an illusion hits with Spatial Surge …

It could very well be per each of those 3 hits per single channel of the auto-attack. This would explain the low 2% currently shown as well.

Thanks for the interesting thread here darling. Happy to see people interested in discussing these new traits for the Mesmer class in a constructive way!

I actually think this is a pretty solid trait. My initial reaction to this gm is simply that it helps to make GS a quicker more offensive weapon than it already is. It’s not build defining (which is why it shouldn’t be a gm), but it does help you to add a lot more pressure at a higher velocity because your CDs on 2-5 are decreased at such a higher rate. If you’re spawning clones and only AAing then you’re a bad player in any situation. Now let me take the OP’s original post statement by statement:

1) It only works for 1 specific type of weapon.

Most weapon CD traits only work for 1 weapon. The revamped Malicious Sorcery is the only weapon CD trait that doesn’t necessarily need you to wield a scepter for it to be of use to you. At least it seems that way to me.

2) GS and the bonus stat suggests it’s for power builds.

GS has always been a power-based weapon. Again, it makes sense for the GS CD trait to tie into this.

3) It promotes you and your clones spamming autoattacks. So clearly not optimal for either shatter or phantasm builds.

Like I’ve said before, if you’re mindlessly AA-ing and not doing anything else, you’re a bad player. This trait helps your CDs on your entire GS weapon, hence it helps with both shattering and phantasms. There will be points where you are kitting and AAing. There will be points in between other skill usage that you use your AA. This all helps to make your weapon quicker.

So suddenly, u have this interesting synergy between the new Greatsword Training + Sharper Images + the new Confusing Combatants.

While this sounds like a novel idea, I haven’t really seen a decent Rampager build ever. The trait spread is just… weird. I think Countless once upon a time used it on his signet build? Difference is that he wasn’t even using GS.

So in the end, this gm trait MIGHT play an interesting role to give birth to a new build type completely, GS/Staff condi hybrid.
Traitwise, it could be Dom/Duel/Chaos with Greatsword Training (duh!), Deceptive Evasion and Chaotic Interruption.

Solid theory crafting here! You make a good case. IE, condis on crit, and CI with Great Sword Training could possibly be a decent hybrid phantasm build. I see this having most potential in WvW roaming. I fully expect another post with videos showing you rekting the competition when the release comes out.

@Sebrent
The point is that the current master trait 20% reduction to all GS skills as it stands is far superior. Versus the new GM trait at 2% per spatial surge that give diminishing return as your cd’s count down.

I don’t get the “your not able to attack and clones die to fast” thing…

In PvP early attacks are just part of your momentum, even shatter has always been preached as “don’t just spam your shatters! Auto attacks arn’t bad!”

For the most part tho when I think of having multiple clones on GS up and being effective, is when for example at henge, after blinking to higher ground not only does this mean you won’t get hit and are able to free cast a little, but any clones you summon are now going to actually apply preassure and grant you some c/d recharge as well as momentum. this trait just makes it more effective at holding your momentum over all.

Granted the other two traits GET momentum easier….

NecroN.8306:

@Sebrent
The point is that the current master trait 20% reduction to all GS skills as it stands is far superior. Versus the new GM trait at 2% per spatial surge that give diminishing return as your cd’s count down.

I highly doubt they would code it so that the reduction is recalculated based on the current state of the skill recharge. That would be needlessly intensive and would make little sense.

The way this trait will be coded is it will take the recharge of a skill (x seconds), multiply it by the recharge modifier (2%) to get a value (x*.02 seconds) that it will remove from the recharge every time the trait triggers.

Assuming that it triggers 3 times per Spacial surge, it means that you could potentially recharge either 6 or possibly up to 18% (3 target pierce) every time you use an auto.

@MailMail:
Rampager’s took a huge hit when Phantasmal Membrane got nerfed with that long ICD because Rampager’s is just as glassy as zerker (e.g. not as tanky as Rabid) but without the ability to end things extremely quickly via high burst. That protection was needed to buy you a little more time.

We’ll see how the new traits pair up … it might not work as well for Greatsword (though 3 hits per 1.4 seconds is nice for proccing crits) … but it could be quite nice if you’re wanting to take Duelist Adept trait (so no Phantasmal Fury) and you want as many crits as possible from that unload that can potentially apply 2 bleeds and 1 confusion per crit (more confusion if shooting through your ethereal field)

@NecroN:
That’s a good point about losing the flat 20% cd reduction and I think it ties into the question laid out by Daishi about if it’s either

• per hit
• or per cast that hits at least once

If it’s per actual hit, then with the current 2% a single clone is reducing your cooldowns by 6% every 1.4 seconds.

• 18% reduction in 4.2s
• 24% reduction in 5.6s

That obviously doubles with 2 clones and triples with 3.

It’s not hard to have 2 clones up for a few seconds and it only takes 2.8 seconds for 2 clones to reduce your greatsword cooldowns by 24%

… now, if it’s per cast that hits … I’m not a fan.

@Sebrent
I hear what your saying and how you’re looking at, but given Anet’s track record with the Mesmer I was totally seeing this as per cast. I hope I’m wrong.

Thanks..

Sebrent.3625:

Rampager’s stats:

• High precision means that you and your clones will crit often … more bleeds & confusion
• Power means you won’t hit like a wet noodle … just won’t hit like a berzerker
• Condition damage means your conditions will hurt … not as much as Rabid/Carrion/etc. … but quite a bit.

As far as what you need to do to get the cooldown … they mentioned it was Mesmer’s autoattacks AND the clones’ autoattacks.

A Mesmer with just 3 greatsword clones (don’t know why you don’t have a phantasm, ignore that, lol) is going to have each clone hitting 3 times every ~1.5 (see wiki for: 1.4) from 1,200 range without having to worry about anti-projectiles … applying bleeding and confusion on crits.

On top of that, they will be reducing the cooldown of your Greatsword skills. Whether the Mesmer is auto-attacking or doing something else is irrelevant.

Debillitating Dissipation is gone
Rampager’s might as well be dead as well with these changes if your just gonna trait to a single condition like confusion it will just get cleansed same problem the Condi guardian has had over the years.

Clones get wiped out even from minor AOE as well so the chance that a clone will actually get some crits off in PvP or even in PVE is next to nil not to mention clones are completely worthless for World Bosses now.

No point to a clone now as I can see it as it will get killed even running in for a Shatter Skill.

@NecroN:
I completely understand where you’re coming from. If you’ve seen some of my other posts, then you should be aware that there have been changes since launch that I think have been “* backwards”.

However, despite that, I feel that ANet is trying their best to give us what we want. There is evidence in the changes that they’ve been listening as some of the changes are practically copy&paste of ideas on the boards.

Right now, whenever there isn’t sufficient information, I say just note that and try to work from what we do know. You may notice that I try to make notes in my posts when we don’t know something … like noting that I would agree this trait would suck if it was per cast.

@Doam:
I think they are moving away from clone-death and more towards several ways of speeding up our cooldowns on clones so we are more capable of dealing with illusion churn.

Heck, let’s look at the various traits that now help us summon our phantasms even quicker

• Greatsword Training – Reduce 2% recharge on greatsword skills whenever you or an illusion hits with Spatial Surge.
• Duelist Discipline – Interrupting a foe recharges pistol skills by 50%.
• Chaotic Dampening – Staff and trident skills recharge faster while you have chaos armor.
• Persistence of Memory – Shattering a phantasm recharges all phantasms by a small amount

Not to mention the ones that are still simple, flat cooldown reductions.

I’m not sure what you’re doing on your Mesmer, but my illusions often get off some attacks unless I’m summoning them in the middle of a cluster**** expecting them to survive instead of simply doing a quick shatter.

The issue they had with the clone death was that it promoted not shattering. They want us to shatter. They are trying to figure out how to balance that with the various remaining builds now.

Fay.2357:

Assuming that it triggers 3 times per Spacial surge, it means that you could potentially recharge either 6 or possibly up to 18% (3 target pierce) every time you use an auto.

The stream said piercing won’t help.

Also because people seem to have missed it , illusionary wave can be reduced to a 7s CD. This was after accounting for clones attacking slower too.

Hi guys
Lots of good discussion here.

@DanteZero: Clone placement is handled with DE and Mirror Images skill if you can afford to include it in your build.

@Toeofdoom: Oh my, iWave with 7s CD, thats insane. Although I would expect in reality (going with the 2% figure), sloppy fighting considered, you might end up with something like 15s CD. But still, able to use iWave every 15s is very awesome.

iWave has always been a strong CC skill with great interrupt potential, it combines the reliability of Magic Bullet and AoE effectiveness of Chaos Storm. Still second to Daze Mantra though, imo because of its short range.

I can imagine the playstyle of this build would involve lots of kiting to spread your gs clones all over the place. You move in to melee range to do face dmg with Mirror Blade, gain might stacks from this skill and/or interrupt with iWave or Diversion. Mobility is the key, so Traveler Runes would be the great fit for this. And the stats support the hybrid approach too.

When all your gs skills are on CD, you can either range with GS to keep up the dmg pressure while speeding up CDs with your AA or switch to Staff for more cover condition pressure. GS is more offensive, Staff is more defensive as always.

A condi burst (your win scenario) could go like this: iWave to immobilize, drop Chaos Storm for more interrupt/stun (Confounding Suggestions trait), then iWarlock for the burst dmg.

So basically your opponent is faced with two options:
Either
1) Ignore the clones completely and go for you. They might regret this as long as you’re good at kiting to deny their dmg pressure and last long enough for your conditions to build up and overwhelm your opponent.
Or
2) Go for the clones and kill them as soon as they pop into existence. Because your opponent busy dealing with your clones, this means less pressure on you.

Either way, you have huge advantages. Having said that, I can see clearly see that some builds can counter this playstyle, like builds using ranged attacks that bounce between multiple targets, meaning they can just keep attacking you knowing that the bounces can kill off your clones. But as far as I know, all bouncing attacks are projectiles, thus reflect will be your solution to this.

Anyway, keep the discussion going . Would love to hear more from you guys.

I think I’ll put together my attempted build:

Weapons: Greatsword/staff – Energy + generosity
Armour: Sinister, rampager or rabid. In pvp… rabid I guess. Balthazar runes (traited mirror )
Skills: Mirror, Arcane thievery, signet of inspiration, blink, Time warp
Traits
Domination: Empowered illusions/CS, Furious interruption, Greatsword training
Dueling: Phantasmal fury, evasive mirror, deceptive evasion
Chaos: Master of manipulation, Chaotic dampening, Chaotic interruption

Rotation:

• Chaos storm, phase retreat, dodge (energy sigil will recharge), shatter, IWarlock
• Swap
• Spam GS skills, they will be up again soon. Make sure to fill up any spare illusion slots with clones and keep your distance. If they get close, remember mirror will AOE burn.
• Spatial surge and cast skills on cooldown.
• Swap back
• Same plan as GS except alternating chaos armor and storm+ retreat for uptime. Shatters should be thrown in during staff rotations.

Generally it would be worth trying to get a full cooldown out of the 5 skills before swapping back. If you’re really ambitious or get heaps of quickness, 2 for greatsword.

If in a group, try to combo arcane thievery, furious interruption, time warp, balthazar 4 bonus quickness and chaos storm boons with SoI. Otherwise we are assuming it is our speed signet and more useful passive (Quickness on 3 spatial surge clones though? hmmm)

Thoughts:

• That rotation looks like a lot of “Spam it on cooldown lol!” – I think this means I don’t really have a clue how this build plays yet.
• Does evasive mirror have the potential to save dodge clones from instant death regularly? They often tank whatever you were actually dodging and explode.
• A full signet build is tempting, especially given the lack of condition removal.
• I think phantasm damage is better if you have power stats, otherwise CS

EDIT: Quickness is kinda hilarious with this build actually
I have a spreadsheet – https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rPudqIXBt_uTWpuN7_q1GAJdUAkBSqwm6T7ZerXVDuQ/pubhtml
Assumptions: 2% is calculated after IC (Irrelevant for this build). Clones attack every 2.4 seconds with spatial surge.

Well we don’t know what the cap is for the GS cd reduction trait is, but in the live stream they said you won’t be able to line people up and get 40% reduction. If the max is a 20% reduction, then this is worst than the upfront 20% reduction we get now, as you have to work it up. Also we don’t know how long it lasts for or if there is a icd for this. I don’t think we can call this without knowing some of the details for this mechanic, which is also being applied to other skills.

When they were talking about “lining people up” … they meant that you couldn’t get extra reduction from a single shot that is hitting multiple targets.

I do agree that we need more details … and I want them right now :-p lol.