Guild Wars 2

I spent some time and compared how zerk and assassins compare one to another under different situations. I compared two builds, 6/4/0/0/4 and 2/3/0/5/4, which are the best mantra and non-mantra builds. Also, I compared how each gear/build combo performs under 3 different party comps: solo/terribad pug, average pug, and meta speedrun party.

To put the results in perspective I put every gear/rune/build/buffs combo possible though 4 tests:

• Your expected average DPS
• How fast would it take you to reach 300k dmg (~1/5th of your typical lvl 80 boss)
• How much of lupi’s HP can you melt with the p2’s shower reflect
• For how much advanced golem’s (coe) reflected purple projectile will hit

The setup was as follows:

• Ascended gear all around
• Zerk trinkets for both zerk and assassins tests
• 1 warden + 2 swordsmans
• Wastrel’s Punishment 50% uptime (for 6/4/0/0/4)
• 2 mantras (for 6/4/0/0/4)
• Sigil of force + slaying
• 10% slaying potion, no food
• 2,600 armor target

Party provides: 0 might/vuln, no fury, no banners

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 5,312 dps
• [A/S] 5,279 dps

Terminal DPS (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] 4,735 dps
• [A/S] 4,680 dps

Time to reach 300k DMG (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 60.6 sec
• [A/S] 61.2 sec

Time to reach 300k DMG (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] 66.4 sec
• [A/S] 67.0 sec

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 15.50% | Warden: 12.08%
• [A/S] Feedback: 16.31% | Warden: 12.63%

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 13.30% | Warden: 13.25%
• [A/S] Feedback: 14.00% | Warden: 13.86%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 15,053 dmg | Warden: 11,734 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 15,836 dmg | Warden: 12,267 dmg

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 12,918 dmg | Warden: 12,868 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 13,602 dmg | Warden: 13,461 dmg

Party provides: 15 might/vuln, fury, disc banner

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 8,730 dps
• [A/S] 8,732 dps

Terminal DPS (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] 7,846 dps
• [A/S] 7,822 dps

Time to reach 300k DMG (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 38.8 sec
• [A/S] 38.8 sec

Time to reach 300k DMG (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] 41.8 sec
• [A/S] 42.1 sec

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 22.44% | Warden: 15.24%
• [A/S] Feedback: 23.45% | Warden: 15.93%

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 19.31% | Warden: 16.72%
• [A/S] Feedback: 20.20% | Warden: 17.49%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 21,787 dmg | Warden: 14,805 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 22,780 dmg | Warden: 15,473 dmg

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 18,757 dmg | Warden: 16,243 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 19,618 dmg | Warden: 16,989 dmg

Party provides: 25 might/vuln, fury, disc and str banners

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 10,935 dps
• [A/S] 11,018 dps

Terminal DPS (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] 9,950 dps
• [A/S] 10,004 dps

Time to reach 300k DMG (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 31.0 sec
• [A/S] 31.0 sec

Time to reach 300k DMG (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] 33.0 sec
• [A/S] 33.0 sec

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 23.85% | Warden: 16.20%
• [A/S] Feedback: 24.93% | Warden: 16.93%

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 20.59% | Warden: 17.83%
• [A/S] Feedback: 21.54% | Warden: 18.65%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 23,164 dmg | Warden: 15,734 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,209 dmg | Warden: 16,444 dmg

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (2/3/0/5/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 20,002 dmg | Warden: 17,322 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 20,920 dmg | Warden: 18,117 dmg

Conclusions

Direct Damage

• When solo, zerk will get you 0.6% to 1.9% more dps which is 0.6 to 1 sec faster to reach 300k dmg.
• When in bad pug, zerk will get you 0.0% to 0.8% more dps which is 0 to 0.6 sec faster to reach 300k dmg.
• When in meta party, zerk will actually be 0.1% to 0.8% less dps than assassins however due to high dps in such environment the time to reach 300k dmg is exactly the same.

Reflects

• No contest here, assassins is always better. Assassins will get you get you 4.3% – 5.0% more reflect dmg than zerk depending on your build/party.

Yay for Frifox ! Now for a condi dps test after the patch

Full buffs with 6/4/0/0/4 but now with food. Terminal DPS and time to 300k dmg:

100 power / 70 ferocity food

• [Z/S] 11,412 dps | 29.8 sec
• [A/S] 11,517 dps | 29.8 sec

100 precision / 70 ferocity food

• [Z/S] 11,487 dps | 29.8 sec
• [A/S] 11,565 dps | 29.8 sec

Hey there,

• How do you calculate the damage done reflecting P2 Lupi? Are there a number average hits reflected and with a skill coefficient / power we know of?
• Does changing to exotics change the results in any real way?
• Have you checked if Wastrel’s Punishment works on all bosses that are not moving? (Namely Lupi)
• 2 mantras (for 6/4/0/0/4) makes sense, but what if for purely reflect reasons one were to set up 4 mantras? I’m curious how the damage modifiers affect the numbers.
• Does a mini count as a companion still in PvE? (For ranger runes)

Thank you for all the hard work so far

PS – Is it considered an exploit or bad dungeon design to place the wall of reflection on the wall which allows a duo to finish Lupi this fast: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2cx8nt/sc_lupicus_duo_029_guardian_solo_143/ And if not an exploit, does a mesmer have a good place in Arah for reflect reasons in your opinion?

I solo/duo’d lupi a few times and kept track for how much exactly the reflects hit with what gear I was wearing. With enough data I then backtracked to estimate lupi’s stats and skill coefficient. Then, did lupi with a full party a few times and on average I was reflecting 15 projectiles per p1>p2 transition. With this data and knowing exactly how much lupi’s hp/armor is it was easy to estimate the average feedback damage.

Lupi’s Frenzied Blast (guesstimate)

• Power: 10k
• Weap Str: 1k
• Skill Coeff: 1.850
• Armor: 3,456
• Projectiles/FB: 15

Changing to exotics does change the numbers but not the comparison between zerk and assassins. The results scale proportionally and do not change the “x is better than y gear in this situation” conclusions.

WP does work as long as enemy is not using a skill. Basically, as long as enemy is not executing any skill animations then it’s highly likely the WP bonus will proc. I’m not 100% certain whether having the mob roam around (but not using any actual skills) would prevent WP from proc’ing but from what I remember during my tests it did not.

You can’t reflect with 4 mantras on 6/4/0/0/4 (without exploits). You’ll need to dedicate a slot for Feedback or retrait to 6/4/0/4/0 and rely on the focus. One extra mantra won’t change the results enough to change the conclustions.

Atm the mini does count as a companion. I have a good feeling anet will patch it for the feature pack though, but we’ll see for sure when the time comes.

One-shoting lupi is an exploit that takes advantage of bad design. You will not get a ban for doing it but if GM catches you doing it he’ll give you a warning, and next time a temporary suspension. Mesmer is definitely an asset in arah but an asset that many end up replacing with a guardian because of his easier dps uptime and much more reliable reflects.

It should be noted that the only reason Assassin’s is better in a meta party is because you’re approaching a soft-cap on Power with the extra might stacks.

This shouldn’t be an indication to “Switch to Assassins”, but rather a “Switch a few pieces and/or food until youre below the power softcap”. Some combination of Zerks+Assassins will undoubtedly be better in this instance.

Celeras.4980:

It should be noted that the only reason Assassin’s is better in a meta party is because you’re approaching a soft-cap on Power with the extra might stacks.

This shouldn’t be an indication to “Switch to Assassins”, but rather a “Switch a few pieces and/or food until youre below the power softcap”. Some combination of Zerks+Assassins will undoubtedly be better in this instance.

What is the softcap?

Wow, great number crunching…thanks for taking the time to pull these! My stupid question (and I am sorry for it being stupid) is:

So the two best runes sets for a mesmer are either ranger or scholar then?

I still can’t make up my mind what set to use on mine, I don’t want to waste gold and everyone loves to talk about the runes of Strength or Traveler’s runes.

Amazing theory crafting thanks. Guess I will be switching from Scholars to Rangers kind of no brainer honestly.

Thanks for the numbers!

@Rabid,
Runes of Strength and Travelers are not really for PvE dungeons for mesmers. Travelers is really convenient open world and wvw to move around but pretty bad for damage.

The meta mesmer builds rely almost exclusively on their team for might as the trait/weapon setup has zero sources of might so the % duration is a complete waste. If for some reason, you consistently find yourself in groups that lack any might while fighting enemies that require no reflects, then sigil of battle can be an ok since it buffs both your damage and your phantasms while % modifiers only buff your dmg and reflects. Since my mesmer and ele can share armor, I’ve toyed with the runes of strength+battle+inspiration as a group DPS boost in terrible groups but I’ve found it just better to swap to my ele in those situations.

Since gold seems like an issue for you, get 2 exotic sets from dungeons or the TP (WvW armor can’t be salvaged). Runes of ranger and centaur are cheap and some of the best stuff for mesmer damage and speed.

Ah…so these numbers are for dungeons. So two sets of armor to carry around, my poor mesmer’s bag is going to be so full. Well, at least I know what to use for dungeons now

wht is all the z/r z/s a/r stuff?

Celeras.4980:

It should be noted that the only reason Assassin’s is better in a meta party is because you’re approaching a soft-cap on Power with the extra might stacks.

This shouldn’t be an indication to “Switch to Assassins”, but rather a “Switch a few pieces and/or food until youre below the power softcap”. Some combination of Zerks+Assassins will undoubtedly be better in this instance.

Lol not at all.

These math show up assassin is better under every point of view.

No might\fury\vuln its not realistic even soloing and that’s the only situation zerk is cleary better.

Since you have around 10 might\10 vuln\50% fury uptime you (basically average random pugs pressing random keys counting on fact your goin to hold up on your own 5/6 vuln stack just with aa chain) dps comparison show up 2 things:

1) zerk mesmer dmg is better from 0% to 0,8% (AKA NOTHING)

2) assasin reflect will own zerk reflect with a 5% more dmg

The sum of that 2 things makes sin being better even on craps pug party

Since you are on good party there’s nothing to compare, assasin is better under every point of view.

You also wrote something incorrectly speaking about “switch some piece to assassin” cause the assasin setup its ALREADY a mix up of zerk+assasin piece cause assassin ascendend trinket does NOT exist.

The stuff you calling for is already what frifox stated.

Finally there’s practice about, i have both full ascendent set (zerk and assassin) with every weapon asc (both assasin and zerk) and there’s simply no way if you have both and you are doing an istance\fotm to use zerk. Its enought to try both set to see an assasin being better nearly always and nearly on every party setup.

I think you simply dont want to reroll assassin (cause redo a whole asc set its expansive) then you are trying to read “math” in way to tell yourself zerk is better.

But zerk isnt better, at least for mesmer after they moved empowering mantra to power line.

Sometimes zerk and sin are nearly same dmg, sometimes sin will own zerk but zerk its never better than sin outside you are soloing (and even soloing zerk is better on average dmg , in a contest where you gonna kill everything in less than 5 sec average dmg does NOT exis,t and the guaratee crit from assasin makes you oneshot everything where a zerk set makes you movin from overshot stuff or need to hit them 2 times).

Im sorry but math is math (and practice tell exactly the same)

Edit:
about “soloing” im speakin of open world solo.

Regarding solo istance, you wont kill stuff on 5 sec so zerk could seem better again.. but there you want to reflect and so zerk become worst again

Funky.4861:

wht is all the z/r z/s a/r stuff?

Z – Zerk / A – Assassins
S – Scholars / R – Rangers

Could you add the reflect damage with buff food? I’m quite interested to see the difference between ranger and scholar with that (if you could also include the seaweed salad that’d be nice). Also if you could include Spotter + Frost Spirit as well that’d be awesome

I didn’t add spotter/frost simply because it’s too dependent on a class that isn’t in the meta. Anyways, I’ll crunch some numbers when I get some time. Any specific foods you’re interested in?

Food: None

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 10,920 dps
• [A/S] 11,018 dps

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25.48% | Warden: 17.79%
• [A/S] Feedback: 24.93% | Warden: 16.93%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 24,705 dmg | Warden: 17,283 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,209 dmg | Warden: 16,444 dmg

Food: 100 power & 70 precision (Plate of Truffle Steak)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,465 dps
• [A/S] 11,566 dps

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25.98% | Warden: 18.14%
• [A/S] Feedback: 25.43% | Warden: 17.28%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25,231 dmg | Warden: 17,618 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,703 dmg | Warden: 16,779 dmg

Food: 100 power & 70 ferocity (Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,435 dps
• [A/S] 11,517 dps

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25.99% | Warden: 18.15%
• [A/S] Feedback: 25.40% | Warden: 17.25%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25,240 dmg | Warden: 17,625 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,668 dmg | Warden: 16,756 dmg

Food: 100 precision & 70 ferocity (Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,445 dps
• [A/S] 11,565 dps

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 26.70% | Warden: 18.65%
• [A/S] Feedback: 26.15% | Warden: 17.76%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25,936 dmg | Warden: 18,111 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 25,339 dmg | Warden: 17,252 dmg

Food: 10% damage (Bowl of Seaweed Salad, 100% uptime)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,444 dps
• [A/S] 11,559 dps

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 28.03% | Warden: 17.79%
• [A/S] Feedback: 27.42% | Warden: 16.93%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 27,225 dmg | Warden: 17,283 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 26,630 dmg | Warden: 16,444 dmg

Food: 40 to all (Birthday Blaster)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,311 dps
• [A/S] 11,408 dps

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 26.06% | Warden: 18.20%
• [A/S] Feedback: 25.49% | Warden: 17.32%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 25,310 dmg | Warden: 17,674 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,759 dmg | Warden: 16,818 dmg

The numbers above have no Spotter/Frost. The highest crit was with Assassins/Rangers with 100 precision / 70 ferocity food which will put you right at 100.1% crit chance mark. Safe to say as long as you don’t drop more than 4pts into Dueling you will never go past 100% crit (no Spotter).

Same data, but with Frost and Spotter.

No Food

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,615 dps (102.48% crit)
• [A/S] 11,929 dps ( 94.14% crit)

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 28.01% | Warden: 18.28%
• [A/S] Feedback: 27.84% | Warden: 17.67%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 27,202 dmg | Warden: 17,753 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 27,036 dmg | Warden: 17,163 dmg

Food: 100 power & 70 precision (Plate of Truffle Steak)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,946 dps (105.81% crit)
• [A/S] 12,509 dps ( 97.48% crit)

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 28.01% | Warden: 18.28%
• [A/S] Feedback: 28.38% | Warden: 18.02%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 27,202 dmg | Warden: 17,753 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 27,565 dmg | Warden: 17,498 dmg

Food: 100 power & 70 ferocity (Bowl of Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 12,167 dps (102.48% crit)
• [A/S] 12,476 dps ( 94.14% crit)

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 28.57% | Warden: 18.65%
• [A/S] Feedback: 28.38% | Warden: 18.02%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 27,752 dmg | Warden: 18,111 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 27,568 dmg | Warden: 17,501 dmg

Food: 100 precision & 70 ferocity (Bowl of Curry Butternut Squash Soup)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,829 dps (107.24% crit)
• [A/S] 12,510 dps ( 98.90% crit)

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 28.57% | Warden: 18.65%
• [A/S] Feedback: 29.19% | Warden: 18.53%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 27,752 dmg | Warden: 18,111 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 28,350 dmg | Warden: 17,997 dmg

Food: 10% damage (Bowl of Seaweed Salad, 100% uptime)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 12,191 dps (102.48% crit)
• [A/S] 12,532 dps ( 94.14% crit)

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 30.81% | Warden: 18.28%
• [A/S] Feedback: 30.62% | Warden: 17.67%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 29,923 dmg | Warden: 17,753 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 29,740 dmg | Warden: 17,163 dmg

Food: 40 to all (Birthday Blaster)

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [A/R] 11,871 dps (104.38% crit)
• [A/S] 12,202 dps ( 96.05% crit)

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 28.33% | Warden: 18.49%
• [A/S] Feedback: 28.47% | Warden: 18.07%

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

• [A/R] Feedback: 27,516 dmg | Warden: 17,958 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 27,648 dmg | Warden: 17,552 dmg

It’s wort noting that once you go past 100% crit you can always drop Blade Training for Deceptive Evasion to help you with quickly generating 3 clones for Feedback dmg.

Thanks I wonder if Ranger Runes will be still worth it once mini won’t work with the last bonus. I guess it will depend of the fights. I’ll stick with Scholar anyway ^^

Are they going to “fix” it?

Jeremlloyd.6837:

Thanks I wonder if Ranger Runes will be still worth it once mini won’t work with the last bonus. I guess it will depend of the fights. I’ll stick with Scholar anyway ^^

Well if ranger rune won’t work with last bonus imao they wont be worth in 90% of fights.

Anyway the true winner setup would be full asc assassin with scholar runes if they only add assassin trinkets..

I do not undestand why anet allow full exo assassin gear but not full asc assassin gear, kinda kinda meh

Ranger runes work on mesmer with a mini out…but they don’t count for clones/phantoms though? Still a little fuzzy on how those work, I’ve seen people claim that they work when your phantasms are out and others who say they don’t. Can someone confirm this?

aelfwe.4239:

Well if ranger rune won’t work with last bonus imao they wont be worth in 90% of fights.

rabidsmiles.5926:

Ranger runes work on mesmer with a mini out…but they don’t count for clones/phantoms though?

The rangers 7% bonus does proc both when you have a clone or a phantasm out. If you don’t have at least one of the either out for 90% of the fights then you’re doing something very wrong.

Currently, you have to keep 90%+ hp up at least 80% of the time for scholars to be better than rangers. I have a feeling that if anet does nerf the mini-pet trick the ranger runes will still be very viable. With scholars bonus up 100% of the time scholars will give only 0.9% more direct DPS than rangers but as a trade-off lose 2.19% Feedback and 4.85% Warden reflect damage. The difference in direct dps is almost non-existent while reflect damage is definitely more obvious, especially since most of our reflect damage is burst, not sustained.

To put it in perspective, if you stay 90%+ hp 100% of the time you’ll be gaining no more than 2.9k more damage over 30 seconds compared to the ranger runes…

Invictus.1503:

Celeras.4980:

It should be noted that the only reason Assassin’s is better in a meta party is because you’re approaching a soft-cap on Power with the extra might stacks.

This shouldn’t be an indication to “Switch to Assassins”, but rather a “Switch a few pieces and/or food until youre below the power softcap”. Some combination of Zerks+Assassins will undoubtedly be better in this instance.

What is the softcap?

There is no ‘softcap’ on Power. Power is linear and the reason to use Assassins is to cap Crit to 100% for reflect damage.

rabidsmiles.5926:

Ranger runes work on mesmer with a mini out…but they don’t count for clones/phantoms though? Still a little fuzzy on how those work, I’ve seen people claim that they work when your phantasms are out and others who say they don’t. Can someone confirm this?

Yes, Ranger runes work with clones and phantasms. They also work with mini-pets and I believe this was an intended change. I don’t see Anet reversing this just to nerf specific runes for some classes. It’s not like if you use a mini you get more benefit from these runes than a class that uses a pet. Besides, any class can use a mini.

Awesome! Runes of the Ranger it is then…they seem to be the best ‘all round’ rune for general purpose gearing. Thanks guys

frifox.5283:

aelfwe.4239:

Well if ranger rune won’t work with last bonus imao they wont be worth in 90% of fights.

rabidsmiles.5926:

Ranger runes work on mesmer with a mini out…but they don’t count for clones/phantoms though?

The rangers 7% bonus does proc both when you have a clone or a phantasm out. If you don’t have at least one of the either out for 90% of the fights then you’re doing something very wrong.

Currently, you have to keep 90%+ hp up at least 80% of the time for scholars to be better than rangers. I have a feeling that if anet does nerf the mini-pet trick the ranger runes will still be very viable. With scholars bonus up 100% of the time scholars will give only 0.9% more direct DPS than rangers but as a trade-off lose 2.19% Feedback and 4.85% Warden reflect damage. The difference in direct dps is almost non-existent while reflect damage is definitely more obvious, especially since most of our reflect damage is burst, not sustained.

To put it in perspective, if you stay 90%+ hp 100% of the time you’ll be gaining no more than 2.9k more damage over 30 seconds compared to the ranger runes…

I know ranger runes works with illusions too but, as i told, if they wouldnt work with minipet then i wont use them anymore.

Reason isnt math, reason its practice.

I found “being above 90% hp” scholar bonus a more versatile bonus than “having 1 illusion out”.

There are plenty examples where you dont want your reflect dmg bonus rely on illusion.

A couple of example:

fotm 50 dredge boss if you aint not fgs him, you can do upper stuff using feedback to reflect without taking aggro and having illusion out

ascalon 50, if you pull 2 party at same time they wont exaclty die at same time and you illusion will die (or you mind wrack them cause they gonna die anyway) right after 1st mob wave die but you are still reflecting second wave.

And so on

The only reason to take ranger runes over scholar is precision rather than power for main stat. The dmg part of the scholar is simply superior than ranger, the mini pet stuff let you cover a bit that superiority, without it i really dont see any reason to go for ranger

Well you take Ranger over Scholar for reflects.

Xavi.6591:

Well you take Ranger over Scholar for reflects.

yeah but i think my eng is so bad i mess up my explaination xD

I take ranger runes for reflect cause they work with mini pet, if they wouldnt work with mini pet i wont take them for reflect regardless they work with illusion (gameplay wise).

From my past I can see myself with a “companion” for 99% of the encounters. Like I said earlier, it’s a matter of experience and if you can’t always have an illusion out then you need to adjust your playstyle. Of course there are individual cases where it’s not practical but those very few. Basically, it’s much easier to have at least one clone/phantasm out than keeping yourself at 90%+ hp.

frifox.5283:

From my past I can see myself with a “companion” for 99% of the encounters. Like I said earlier, it’s a matter of experience and if you can’t always have an illusion out then you need to adjust your playstyle. Of course there are individual cases where it’s not practical but those very few. Basically, it’s much easier to have at least one clone/phantasm out than keeping yourself at 90%+ hp.

Well this doesnt match with my 5k hour experience, i often found much easyer standing above 90% then having a clone out depending on fight duration xD

Do not forget the reason we bring ranger runes is reflecting, the game is filled of mob\boss who cast a reflectable attack right after the are pulled or los.

Example, take ac p2 last boss, it die in 4 sec or less.

Single trap tact, you pull it behind the pillar. You are los, and right after he turn the pillar it start to cast its reflectable attack. You want to feedback there as soon as he turn the pillar.

Feedback its outisde gcd then you can start summon a phantasm (1 sec) or clone (3/4 sec) as soon as you cast feedback.

This makes you to lose dmg % bonus on 1st sec reflect (that is around a 25% of the total fight duration).

Moreover if you have a conjured in your hand you cant summon anything and with 2 ele out its pretty common.

With scholar (or ranger+mini pet) you have no issue at all. As soon as he turn pillar you cast feedback and start reflecting taking advatage of your rune dmg bonus (being 90%+ hp at begging of the fight isnt really an issue, you are ooc xD)

On general point of view this issue isnt relating at all on “adjust your playstyle to have 1 illusion out” (cause having 1 illusion out doenst require any effort), its related to high dmg party where stuff insta die or nearly there.

I agree with you that on long fights having an illusion out its easyer than standing above 90% hp but how many long fights (outside some higher fotm) do you have in this game with good party? xD

Atm i have 2 set with 1 scholar and 1 with ranger and use ranger one to catch precision rather than power, and i’m happy, but just cause they work with mini pet.

The day they gonna fix it im gonna stick back to scholar like i played for thousands hours, i found them more versatile (with no mini pet on rangers ones ofc)

Has there been any talk of them changing so mini pets don’t count as ‘companions’…especially with that new mini always out patch coming?

aelfwe.4239:

frifox.5283:

From my past I can see myself with a “companion” for 99% of the encounters. Like I said earlier, it’s a matter of experience and if you can’t always have an illusion out then you need to adjust your playstyle. Of course there are individual cases where it’s not practical but those very few. Basically, it’s much easier to have at least one clone/phantasm out than keeping yourself at 90%+ hp.

On general point of view this issue isnt relating at all on “adjust your playstyle to have 1 illusion out” (cause having 1 illusion out doenst require any effort), its related to high dmg party where stuff insta die or nearly there.

I agree with you that on long fights having an illusion out its easyer than standing above 90% hp but how many long fights (outside some higher fotm) do you have in this game with good party? xD

Atm i have 2 set with 1 scholar and 1 with ranger and use ranger one to catch precision rather than power, and i’m happy, but just cause they work with mini pet.

The day they gonna fix it im gonna stick back to scholar like i played for thousands hours, i found them more versatile (with no mini pet on rangers ones ofc)

In all honesty though, in short fights where things “insta-die” why does it matter if your damage output is slightly lower? In those fights, any damage is sufficient if enemies are dead in a few seconds anyway. It is the fights that are longer where the increase in damage output really matters.

Invictus.1503:

aelfwe.4239:

frifox.5283:

From my past I can see myself with a “companion” for 99% of the encounters. Like I said earlier, it’s a matter of experience and if you can’t always have an illusion out then you need to adjust your playstyle. Of course there are individual cases where it’s not practical but those very few. Basically, it’s much easier to have at least one clone/phantasm out than keeping yourself at 90%+ hp.

On general point of view this issue isnt relating at all on “adjust your playstyle to have 1 illusion out” (cause having 1 illusion out doenst require any effort), its related to high dmg party where stuff insta die or nearly there.

I agree with you that on long fights having an illusion out its easyer than standing above 90% hp but how many long fights (outside some higher fotm) do you have in this game with good party? xD

Atm i have 2 set with 1 scholar and 1 with ranger and use ranger one to catch precision rather than power, and i’m happy, but just cause they work with mini pet.

The day they gonna fix it im gonna stick back to scholar like i played for thousands hours, i found them more versatile (with no mini pet on rangers ones ofc)

In all honesty though, in short fights where things “insta-die” why does it matter if your damage output is slightly lower? In those fights, any damage is sufficient if enemies are dead in a few seconds anyway. It is the fights that are longer where the increase in damage output really matters.

“short fights” = 95% fights of the game.

Basically every fight who isnt a boss with some invulnerable phase (or different phase which slow you down) its a short fight.

You are right when you say “It is the fights that are longer where the increase in damage output really matters”, but, sadly, these fights kinda doesnt exist in good party.

This doesnt regard just the rune choice but whole mesmer class. If gw2 fights would be a little longer then mesmer would be one of the top tier dps classes, but gw2 fights are so short that outside fotm mesmer are taken on true speed clear run just for reflect and portal capability (and even there guard for reflect and thief for skip can often substitute you)

Issue are similar and related, as long a fight its so short that people prefer other classes cause you dont have time to take out a couple of phantasm to maximize you dps, then 90% hp scholar bonus usually win cause you are goin to kill stuff before goin out of endurance\aegis\blurred frenzy

So yeah you’re right but nope (paradox )

Ei. we’re speaking of “would”. And no anet dev, as far as i know, told something about ranger runes working on mini pet. So till things will stay like now ranger runes are a very solid solution fom both “long\short” fights, as good as scholar.

Just hope anet dont change this

So, which armor is the better choice for a casual player? I’d like to craft my first asc armor soon. Is zerker the better choice since I’m playing normally open pve, dungeons and a bit wvw? (as it is more generally usable).

Correct, zerk I’d better for you.

Time to redo maths, they goin to add assassin ascendent trinkets on this evening feature patch.

Im pretty sure on good party setup full asc assasin (weapon, armor and trinket) + scholar rune will win over these setup

It will depend on your food/build/party as you’ll have a much higher risk of shooting past 100% crit chance. I have a feeling I’ll be crafting and then always carrying around a full set of ascended zerk and a full ascended assassins gear in my inventory…

Ah ha! So it does appear that zerkers is better than assassins for the most part, except during reflects of course. However, not every battle can attest to a reflect build so all in all it probably would be best to go zerkers.

Glad I chose zerkers over assassins for my ascended gear.

Aither.2859:

Ah ha! So it does appear that zerkers is better than rangers for the most part, except during reflects of course. However, not every battle can attest to a reflect build so all in all it probably would be best to go zerkers.

Glad I chose zerkers over assassins for my ascended gear.

It appear zerk do exactly same dmg as sin, outside reflecting where sin win over zerk

aelfwe.4239:

Aither.2859:

Ah ha! So it does appear that zerkers is better than assassins for the most part, except during reflects of course. However, not every battle can attest to a reflect build so all in all it probably would be best to go zerkers.

Glad I chose zerkers over assassins for my ascended gear.

It appear zerk do exactly same dmg as sin, outside reflecting where sin win over zerk

Apples to oranges, the amount of damage output that a zerker can produce over assassins is normally less than 1%. On the other hand the amount of reflect damage that ascended assassins armor can produce over zerkers is also less than 1%.

Preferably the ball is in zerkers favor due to the fact that not every enemy has projectiles that can be reflected. It really is all a matter of preference though as I just believe that the numbers show that zerkers can easily produce as much damage as assassins and in some cases more so.

Aither.2859:

Apples to oranges, the amount of damage output that a zerker can produce over assassins is normally less than 1%. On the other hand the amount of reflect damage that ascended assassins armor can produce over zerkers is also less than 1%.

You might want to re-check that last one. It’s one thing to drop random statistics for the sake of an argument but to do it in a thread that has the exact data saying otherwise… :/

frifox.5283:

Party provides: 25 might/vuln, fury, disc and str banners

• [Z/S] 10,935 dps
• [A/S] 11,018 dps <—— 0.8% more

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 23,164 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,209 dmg <—— 4.5% more

frifox.5283:

Party provides: 0 might/vuln, no fury, no banners

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 5,312 dps
• [A/S] 5,279 dps <—— 0.6% less

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 15,053 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 15,836 dmg <—— 5.2% more

frifox.5283:

Aither.2859:

Apples to oranges, the amount of damage output that a zerker can produce over assassins is normally less than 1%. On the other hand the amount of reflect damage that ascended assassins armor can produce over zerkers is also less than 1%.

You might want to re-check that last one. It’s one thing to drop random statistics for the sake of an argument but to do it in a thread that has the exact data saying otherwise… :/

frifox.5283:

Party provides: 25 might/vuln, fury, disc and str banners

• [Z/S] 10,935 dps
• [A/S] 11,018 dps <—— 0.75% more

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 23,164 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 24,209 dmg <—— 4.32% more

frifox.5283:

Party provides: 0 might/vuln, no fury, no banners

Terminal DPS (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] 5,312 dps
• [A/S] 5,279 dps <—— 0.62% less

Mark T-B34RC3 reflected Ultra Beam (6/4/0/0/4)

• [Z/S] Feedback: 15,053 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 15,836 dmg <—— 4.94% more

Fixed your math percentage. Also while I do not wish to argue with you frifox as I know that you have put a lot of time and effort into your posts, the fact is that I don’t run CoE hardly ever and was referring to your Lupicus damage percentile ie:

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

[Z/S] Feedback: 15.50% | Warden: 12.08%
[A/S] Feedback: 16.31% | Warden: 12.63%
[Z/R] Feedback: 16.00% | Warden: 12.73%
[A/R] Feedback: 16.79% | Warden: 13.28%

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (2/3/0/5/4)

[Z/S] Feedback: 13.30% | Warden: 13.25%
[A/S] Feedback: 14.00% | Warden: 13.86%
[Z/R] Feedback: 13.75% | Warden: 13.97%
[A/R] Feedback: 14.43% | Warden: 14.58%

Which states that my calculations were not incorrect that the reflect damage is less than 1% of what zerkers and assassins damage output is.

Not to mention I find it funny and intriguing that you actually decided to post the stats of scholar only runes to try and prove me wrong knowing that the percentage of damage between zerkers and assassins has an even less gap in your CoE numbers when equipped with ranger runes which has always been stated (even by you) to be the runes to run with.

At this point it seems as though that you are grasping at straws to try and prove assassins to be the better armor over zerkers.

No, I’m not here grasping straws. I have no bias toward any type of gear. Math is math, it doesn’t lie.

1 lupi frenzied blast = 1 coe golem projectile, the enemy stats and coefficients are equal for both attacks. The difference is that golem shoots them one by one and lupi shoots ~70 of them simultaneously every shower (with ~15 actually landing on your feedback). Your “1%” tells how much further lupi’s hp went down. That’s not how you represent improvement. What you should be calculating instead is how much of an improvement that is compared to the initial reflect.

• (New / Old – 1) * 100 = improvement

Why you divide and not subtract? Simple, here’s an example. Your originally hit for 100. You get better gear and now you hit for 200. You hit 100 harder. Next test, you hit for 10,000 and after gear change you hit for 10,100. You hit 100 harder again. Which one had more value? Of course the 1st test, because:

• (200 / 100 – 1) * 100 = 100% improvement
• (10,100 / 10,000 – 1) * 100 = only a 1% improvement

In my example above the “100 harder” is equivalent of your “only 1% better”. Now, looking back at the real numbers:

• [Z/S] Feedback: 15,053 dmg
• [A/S] Feedback: 15,836 dmg

(15,836 / 15,053 – 1) * 100 = 5.2% better

Why did I choose scholars? No real reason. Here’s the same comparison but with Ranger runes:

• [Z/R] Feedback: 15,543 dmg
• [A/R] Feedback: 16,305 dmg

(16,305 / 15,543 – 1) * 100 = 4.9% better

Your math is logically wrong and confusing at best.

How to calculate percentage of one number to another, a ratio (Y/X = P%):

Equation Y/X = P% is how to calculate a fraction to a percentage.

For example, how to solve for the percentage of one number to another:

15 is what percent 150? in equation form is 15/150 = P%
15/150 = 0.10

We now need to convert the decimal to an percentage so we end up with a percentage

Converting a decimal to a percentage we multiply by 100 and append a percentage sign to the result

Converting 0.10 to a percent; 0.10 = (0.10 * 100) = 10%
So, 15/150 = 10%
Or, 15 is 10% of 150

Combining the calculations you can get the formula for Y/X = ((Y/X) * 100)% = P% so 15/150 = ((15/150) * 100)% = 10%

With this formula we know that the max output of damage 15836 is X and subtracting the lower base damage 15053 from the base we get difference which is Y.

15836 – 15053 = 783

Next we divide Y from X (Y/X)

783/15836 = 0.049444

After that we times the decimal to 100 and that will give us the set percentage amount.

0.049444 * 100 = 4.94%

Y/X = ((Y/X) * 100)% = P% so 783/15836 = ((783/15836) * 100)% = 4.94% better with assassins.

So yes your math is wrong and at this point you are being confusing as well.

P2 Lupi shower reflect drops his HP by (6/4/0/0/4 | 6/4/0/4/0)

[Z/S] Feedback: 15.50% | Warden: 12.08%
[A/S] Feedback: 16.31% | Warden: 12.63% – less than 1% HP drop
[Z/R] Feedback: 16.00% | Warden: 12.73%
[A/R] Feedback: 16.79% | Warden: 13.28% – less than 1% HP drop

So unless you are hiding some secret formula that only you comprehend and grasp because you developed under the guise of a mathematician than your calculations are flawed at best.

Truly I am not trying to be disrespectful to you but I would appreciate it if you would just try not to argue with me for arguments sake. If you ask any math professor they would confirm my statistics to be accurate and correct. If you need further proof than I urge you to use google on how to convert a decimal into a percentage.

Aither.2859:

15836 – 15053 = 783

Next we divide Y from X (Y/X)

783/15836 = 0.049444

15836 would make sense it it was our starting sample. It’s not. We want to know how much assassins is better than zerk, which makes zerk – 15053 – our starting point.

783/15053 = 0.052 > 5.2%

The only reason I’m arguing for my results is because I’m confident they’re correct.