Guild Wars 2

The recent Ready Up stirred up quite some heat by revealing the new Grandmaster traits which is quite refreshing. I’d like to discuss Bountiful Disillusionment which will be added to the Chaos traitline. To get it out of the way: I don’t like it. But I want to explain in detail why in the hope we will get something more appropriate when the patch is released.

What is the Chaos traitline about?

While the Staff brings some aspects of support to Chaos it mainly is about self-centered survivability. Many of its traits have an aspect of randomness to represent the Chaos, for example, Debilitating Dissipation which causes random conditions or Bountiful Interruption and Prismatic Understanding which both grant random boons. Boons are a substantial part of this traitline but – again – are self-centered and therefore distinguish themselves from boons provided by Inspiration. Chaos also benefits interrupt and lockdown centered builds and caters condition focussed builds to a certain extent.

How does Bountiful Disillusionment fit into this?

Bountiful Disillusionment grants different boons when shattering which definitely fits the theme of the traitline. Sadly, that is where the fit ends.

First, while Bountiful Interruption does also cater the theme of randomness it still has a focus. It always provides Might and therefore enhances offensive capabilities through boons. The only thing random about Bountiful Disillusionment appears to be how the boons where assigned to the respective shatters. The trait provides a pseudo-randomness while apparently lacking a distinctive purpose.

Second, Chaos probably is the least favourable of all traitlines when it comes to shattering. On top of that Chaos already suffers from a lack of synergies across its Major traits. So while some people might argue that a new shatter trait in this line is reasonable because it supports the class mechanic, it makes the lack of synergy even worse. The Adept tier got three ‘filler’ traits (downstate or fall related) which I’m not going to talk about. But two of the three remaining traits contradict a shatter playstyle. Illusionary Defense requires your Illusions to stay alive. Debilitating Dissipation requires your Illusions to die and not to be shattered. The only reasonable choice left will be Master of Manipulation which is not necessarily useful for every Mesmer. On the Master tier we won’t find any traits which directly contradict Bountiful Disillusionment but we won’t find any glancing synergies either.

To sum it up, while the effect of the trait does fit the traitline the mechanic which it is tied to does not. The lack of synergies also make it very unlikely that anyone is ever going to consider picking up the trait when playing a shatter build. This becomes even more apparent when looking at Inspiration. For example, Shattered Conditions is rarely used although it actually is a very powerful trait. The main reason probably is the lack of a shatter Master trait and the lack of synergy when it comes to Minors. Bountiful Disillusionment will find itself in a very similar situation.

How well is the trait designed and how good are the benefits it provides?

As already pointed out earlier the design is a bit off. How did the devs decide which boon to add to which shatter? Do they make sense? Are they valuable?

Mind Wrack
You will gain 3s of Retaliation. 3s of Retaliation is not bad per se since Mesmers don’t have that frequent acess to it. However, Retaliatory Shield and Confusing Cry provide the same benefit at a much lower cost. Placing Retaliation on Mind Wrack is also somewhat questionable. While it does favour a power set up power shatter Mesmers are unlikely willing to get hit because of low Toughness and Vitality. Confusing Cry basically tells it all. There are other shatters which are a better fit.

Cry of Frustration
Might favours both power and conditions build so it is quite nice at the first glance. However, a shatter Mesmer will most likely go 30 Illusions which means that he already got Shattered Strength which provides a similar benefit. So in comparison this boon is not useless but doesn’t provide anything new. Of course, a condition shatter Mesmer could go for it to stack 6 stacks of Might instead of 3. However, he will have to let go of Deceptive Evasion which unarguably is more important when you are looking for offensive power.

Diversion
Fury on Diversion actually is quite nice since Mesmers do not have a lot of access to it. The downside is that a shatter Mesmer won’t have an easy time utilizing it because he just shattered.

Distoration
The Regeneration makes sense design-wise but is utterly useless. If you need Regeneration on a Mesmer you easily get it elsewhere. Distortion also covers up Protection which would proc from Illusionary Membrane.

Does Bountiful Disillusionment open up new builds?

I can see Bountiful Disillusionment being interesting for boon sharing builds. The important part is the ‘Gain boons on shatter skill use.’ It is not limited by the number of Illusions and it doesn’t require stealth. This means you can rotate through your shatters and instantly share 6 stacks of Might, Retaliation, Fury and Regeneration. However, there is a significant issue. The trait misses out on the most important boons current boon sharing builds provide. Protection and Aegis. It also doesn’t provide Vigor.

Regardless, can I see Bountiful Disillusionment being used? Yes, I actually can. Because I can see people finding themselves in a situation where they already invested 20 points in Chaos and got 10 spare points. The alternatives might not be appealing for specific builds. Eventually, they might pick the trait. The boons aren’t bad per se. But it will be picked as a left-over. Not because it is essential for any build.

But what do you guys think?

How could the trait be improved? What could be alternatives?

As said from the start: I personally don’t like the trait. While the idea of introducing a better boon generation to Mesmers is quite interesting the implementation will miss the mark. The mechanic it is tied to is questionable at least for the traitline it is placed in. The benefit it provides is underhwelming. The synergy with the traitline is lacking. I had some ideas of my own which might be more interesting and actually open up new builds. I’ll start with shatter centered traits although I feel shatter not being the best mechanic for the Chaos tree. I’ll then go on with other ideas I had.

Bountiful Disillusionment (reworked, without ICD)
Gain 2s of Protection per shattered Illusion.
Gain an additional boon per shattered Illusion (5x Might, Fury, Vigor, Aegis…)
As Bountiful Interruption focusses on providing power this trait provides survivability outside of stealth. It also incorporates the randomness although it can be reduced when playing skillfully. The guarenteed Protection opens up more defensive shatter builds and actually might be interesting for boon sharing. When considering IP you could end up with 8s+ of Protection and 4 additional boons by using one shatter

Bountiful Disillusionment (reworked, with 10s ICD).
Gain 5s of Protection when using a shatter skill.
Gain an additional boon per shattered Illusion.
Same as above but the main part of the trait isn’t linked to the number of Illusions on the battlefield. The internal cooldown prohibts Protection spam.

Bountiful Disillusionment (reworked, with 10s ICD).
Gain 5s of Retaliation when using a shatter skill.
Cause a random condition to nearby foes (240-360 radius, 3s Burn, 3s Poison, 3s Chill).
This trait will be interesting for condition shatter Mesmers or condition Mesmers in general. It provides conditions Mesmers do not have that reliable access to which makes it easier for them to cover up their main damaging conditions. The Retaliation is line with the tankiness Chaos provides.

Bountiful Dissipation
Clones who are killed apply 2s of Protection and one additional random boon to nearby allies (3x Might, Fury, Vigor, Protection…)
This trait provides some nice synergies with Debilitating Dissipation and therefore is way more consistent with the trait line than a shatter trait could ever be. It also encourages a rather tanky playstyle since you will have to be in reach to benefit of the boons.

Bountiful Manipulation
Manipulation skills heal yourself and grant a random boon (3x Might, Fury, Vigor…)
The random boons fit the theme of the traitline and the self heal improves the survivability. Since Chaos already got Master of Manipulation this trait provides more synergy with existing traits than a shatter trait.

Bountiful Inscriptions
Same as above but for Signets.

Some of those ideas might need some adjustments. However, I feel that all of them are more thought through then the current version of Bountiful Disillusionment. And I didn’t even spend much time on making them up. But maybe you disagree? I’d like to hear your opinions.

I’ve thought about Bountiful Dissipation for awhile now! It provides the best synergy for the Chaos trait line. It simply makes sense. Anyone going 30 into Chaos aren’t shattering their clones except for the distortion on stomp or diversion for clutch interrupts.

I have to disagree with just about everything =/. In general I don’t like random. I also think it will be a decent trait.
So for dungeons, if I were to bring a boon share build, I would do this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vgAQRAsd8cnsISBa2qGeqB1aGJM9AA+GAnUk8lTShrVNA-zQBBYfDiOzsIasVOFRjVXDT5iIqWIAmA-e
I haven’t picked sigils yet and this could be optimized more. 50% boon duration and 100% might duration. It’s still a sword+sword/focus build. Mirror images/sword 3 + F3 on a boss at the start and also sword 4/4. Signet of inspiration and warden/feedback as needed.

24 vulnerability, 22.5 seconds of vigor, 21.5 seconds of fury, 20 might for 20 seconds, more random boons on interrupt. Phantasms will provide the regen. Aegis was always meh on boon share since it won’t consistently save anyone. Aoe vigor vs aoe protection… I would choose vigor post patch and let someone else deal with protection. This of course runs into the problem of F3 is a 45 second cd and signet of inspiration is a 36. If you are willing to sacrifice phantasms to F2/don’t need reflects, F2 will give 9 stacks of might for 30 seconds and 22.5 more seconds of vigor.

TLDR : With F2/F3, perma vigor for the group, 50% fury uptime, 25 might for about 60% of the time and more random stuff. It won’t be optimal in high end groups but it’s will probably be good for random pugs if not better than the meta builds since it still reflects but is a huge buff to group dps.

For roaming/pvp there is actually a lot more options with this. The big questions is does it work with zero clone IP. That is the difference between good and great.

You will of course have to pick deceptive evasion or IP but I think this trade off can be worth it. Most shatter mesmers with the traditional 4/4/0/0/6 will use F3 for vulnerability stacks and then F1 so I don’t know why you think this is a problem. 4/4/6/0/0 was the first thing I thought of. It looks like a PU at first glance but no focus on invis. Just being able to set up powerful spikes very fast. A bit more of a tanky shatter build. Power based. F3 will now go for vulnerability and might/fury. This is amazing for a shatter spike. It does lose IP but those other buffs + tankiness means this could work for wvw roaming.

0/4/6/0/4. It’s probably best as a hybrid build but I could see it working as full condi or full power. Still trait IE but the shorter CD on staff 2 isn’t that big of a deal now. Toughness to condi dmg and condi dmg bonuses are nice since those clones are going to do double dmg compared to now.

What does the new trait bring? Might on F2 means your confusion spike hits harder. Fury is still good. Only sacrifice 1 clone since vulnerability isn’t happening on F3 before you hit F1. Retal can come from multiple sources but how often do ppl use those traits >_>. Retal on F1 kind of makes sense though as a bonus. You just spiked them and have no clones up. You’re a bit tanky with 300 extra toughness. You’re probably going to take a few hits anyways. Why not? Regen can come from chaos armor or the minor chaos, so it’s not like you are always wasting the protection. When I hit distortion, it’s also often an oh #@$ moment. Having my health regen while I’m invulnerable isn’t bad.

TLDR, I find it synergizes with other traits in the line or builds that would use chaos. Just look at a lot of osicat’s shatter builds; he often goes 20 chaos. The extra 10 at the cost of IP is a tough decision but that’s good. It means there is some semblance of balance.

Personally I think that random boon on clone death would have fit into the chaos line far better then this stupid shatter, for the exact reasons you listed. It simply doesn’t have synergy with the rest of the line at all.

I don’t know what the hell they were thinking.
The last thing we need is yet another bloody shatter grandmaster trait, there is already a glut of them. Let alone in a line that doesn’t use shatter.
What we need it more traits for other play styles, like deception and trickery, punishing your foe for making mistakes, and support based play.

But no, we get another stupid shatter and and interrupt in a line that doesn’t uses in interrupts. Fan-freaken-tastic.

I immediatally knew it was bad when they said it was another agtter trair… In a trait line that isn’t about shattering.

I wrote a suggestion to move certain ahatter traits to illusions, because thats where they should be… But arenanet seems to be moving away from that O.o. If Illusions isn’t the shatter line, rhen what is it? It isn’t about… Illusions :/.

Maybe I’ll decide to post the suggestion sometime… But I doubt arenanet will do anything about it.

I think it’s fine. What most people might be missing is that you don’t need illusions for it. In which case, we can activate Might, Retaliation, Regeneration, and Fury nearly simultaneously. I think the devs realize that Chaos isn’t a shatter line, so they gave the shatters skill buttons an alternative use as reliable boon generators, which is what I believe this trait is supposed to be used as.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

I have to disagree with just about everything =/.

Buuuuh! How dare you?!

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

In general I don’t like random.

Me neither. But it is a set theme of the Chaos line.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

2 will give 9 stacks of might for 30 seconds and 22.5 more seconds of vigor.

Wait, wait wait. How will it provide 9 stacks of Might? Do you believe it triggers the boons per Illusion? Is that where you got the 21.5s Fury from? As far as I’m concerned this is not how the trait will work. The Ready Up ppt said ‘gain a boon each time a shatter skill is used’. For me, this translates into boon on skill activation and not per Illusion.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

TLDR : With F2/F3, perma vigor for the group, 50% fury uptime, 25 might for about 60% of the time and more random stuff. It won’t be optimal in high end groups but it’s will probably be good for random pugs if not better than the meta builds since it still reflects but is a huge buff to group dps.

Even if it worked the way you assumed when writing this:

• Vigor is not provided by Bountiful Disillusionment.
• A majority of your Might stacks is not provided by Bountiful Disillusionment

So what did it actually contribute? Some Might and Fury. If it did not work the way you think it does it is even worse. Bountiful Disillusionment would have only contributed 3 stacks of Might and a 7-8s Fury to your rotation.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

For roaming/pvp there is actually a lot more options with this. The big questions is does it work with zero clone IP. That is the difference between good and great.

…

TLDR, I find it synergizes with other traits in the line or builds that would use chaos. Just look at a lot of osicat’s shatter builds; he often goes 20 chaos. The extra 10 at the cost of IP is a tough decision but that’s good. It means there is some semblance of balance.

I was complaining about the lack of synergy within Chaos. It’s painfully obvious that a new shatter trait will synergize with other shatter traits in other lines .

Assuming that the boons will trigger on shatter activation and not per Illusion I highly doubt anyone would pick this trait over IP. The marginal boon gain will be too low to compensate for the loss in damage.

Dondagora.9645:

I think it’s fine. What most people might be missing is that you don’t need illusions for it. In which case, we can activate Might, Retaliation, Regeneration, and Fury nearly simultaneously. I think the devs realize that Chaos isn’t a shatter line, so they gave the shatters skill buttons an alternative use as reliable boon generators, which is what I believe this trait is supposed to be used as.

I think you got it right. But even when cancelling out the disconnect with the traitline design and the lack of synergy with other traits within Chaos it remains underhwelming. Because we already got access to most of those boons and most of the time other options are stronger.

Might? We can do better elsewhere. Heck, even in the same tree (Bountiful Interruption). Retaliation? Way more uptime when picking the on block trait if you really really really feel the need for this boon. Fury? The only one I believe to be interesting. Regeneration? The most accessible boon for Mesmers. 5 pts Inspiration. Done.

The only advantage of BD is that it provides all boons within one trait. However, their uptime is a lot lower than that of other boon sources Mesmers have.

The reason I think it’s per clone is because 3 seconds of retal is way too weak and every other shatter trait is per illusion shattered. Given the various screw ups in typing on the stream, I wouldn’t be surprised if Allie mistyped something else on that powerpoint. Vigor is from the inspiration shatter trait and I recommended it for a boon shatter support build. If it works without illusions, then would the shatters keep going on 3 second CDs that happens when no illusions are shattered? Cause that would be crazy OP and worth it. If not, it’s terrible and I will be grabbing a pitchfork after the patch hits.

I don’t care if we can get some of those boons elsewhere. Boons stack in duration or intensity so more might is never a bad thing. Fury is a big deal for mesmers as it’s hard for us to come by. If you want to use signet of inspiration to support, it’s about the huge boon duration/intensity spike then signet of inspiration every 36 seconds. If you aren’t maxed out in the important PvE boons (Vigor/might/fury), those builds are worthless. This is why I think this synergizes with bountiful interruption in a PvE boon share build.

For pvp/wvw, again, just look at a lot of osicat’s shatter builds; he often goes 20 chaos. If shatter builds go 20 chaos often enough, then 10 extra points for another shatter trait is enough synergy for a shatter spec. Too much synergy and we are forced to run a specific kind of build

There is precedent for an on-shatter effect instead of a per-clone effect. Vigorous revelation only works if you have a clone or IP, but it provides a fixed amount of it or per shatter, not per clone.

If that is the case, I will at least wait for the patch but I’m sharpening the pitchfork.

Yeah the way I read the new trait is per shatter skill used, functioning exactly the same as vigorous revelation. The kicker here is that assuming this is the case, the new trait is immensely under powered. Just look at the adept vigorous revelation. Sure, they’re trying to give mesmer more boon support but the problem is, tying specific boons to F1-F4 shatters makes it incredibly underwhelming because you have to wait for the recharges of F3/F4 especially. Given that fact, F3 and F4 should be giving you something very significant.

BUT

If it worked per illusion shattered like shattered strength does (which ofc is a grandmaster and only gives one boon), that would make much more sense and make the trait worth talking more about.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

The reason I think it’s per clone is because 3 seconds of retal is way too weak and every other shatter trait is per illusion shattered. Given the various screw ups in typing on the stream, I wouldn’t be surprised if Allie mistyped something else on that powerpoint. Vigor is from the inspiration shatter trait and I recommended it for a boon shatter support build. If it works without illusions, then would the shatters keep going on 3 second CDs that happens when no illusions are shattered? Cause that would be crazy OP and worth it. If not, it’s terrible and I will be grabbing a pitchfork after the patch hits.

I know where the Vigor is from. My point was that you sounded like you were selling it off as a benefit Bountiful Disillusionment provides, but it is not.

This is how I believe Bountiful Disillusionment works.

• You will need an Illusion (or IP) to trigger it.
• The skill will then go on full cooldown.
• The number of Illusions won’t matter. The boon will always be the same.

Of course, there might be some typos or mistakes in the presentation. But boon per Illusion or boon on skill activation is something very different which heavily influences the power of the trait. They better not just misstyped something that significant.

skcamow.3527:

If it worked per illusion shattered like shattered strength does (which ofc is a grandmaster and only gives one boon), that would make much more sense and make the trait worth talking more about.

True, then it might actually make sense for boon sharing and maybe even for condition shatter builds. The fact that a shatter trait doesn’t really fit into Chaos remains, though. Designwise it probably is one of the worse new traits. For me personally, the worst for the Mesmer. But I know some people hate the Inspiration one more.

There is a very easy reason I don’t believe that Might will be per Illusion. A x/x/30/x/30 build with Might runes which will equal +75% Might duration. In a power build with IP you would get 12 permanent Might stacks (Bountiful Disillusionment) plus 4 Might stacks with 75% uptime (Shattered Strength). In a condition build with Maim the Disillusioned you would get 9 permanent Might stacks plus 3 Might stacks with 75% uptime. I don’t think that ANet would enable us to get 9-12 permanent Might stacks. And this is not even considering that you could now run Sigils of Battle and Sigils of Strength at the same time.

I think some of you are only seeing this trait strictly as a boon sharing trait. I don’t think that’s what ANET had in mind.

They are trying to open up new builds. A way for the Mesmer to use our shatter mechanic without the dependency of Deceptive Evasion(i.e. reliable clone generation.)

Don’t think of it as “only 3 seconds of retaliation”, think of it as 3 seconds of "instant & on-demand " retaliation. Every 15 seconds. That alone might make it worth taking.

Doesn’t matter how good a shatter trait is, if the clone never gets to the target.

Now here’s a trait that gives us “instant & on demand:” retaliation, fury, might, regeneration without clones. that’s what you should be thinking about.

It would really be better still if this were not a GM but a Master trait. Then you would really see build diversity.

^

Not to say this trait is trash, but it’s simply not good enough to be grandmaster. The investment to put that many points in the line AND to pass up other traits simply isn’t worth it.

The 3 long lasting stacks of might on cry of frustration is the most juicy, on a 23 second recharge with 30 in illusions. No denying something like a 0/0/30/10/30 will generate a ton of might (bountiful interruption/bountiful disillusionment/shattered strength). Add to that confusing cry for more retal and vigorous revelation and you have a pretty solid boon sharing build using Staff/X.

Of course you need illusions to shatter which could potentially be troublesome, but that’s what mirror images can be used for in a build like this.

Ultimately the F3 and F4 are what really turn me off from the trait, with regen on F4 the most unappetizing. You should really be getting something more valuable for those longer shatter recharges. That said, I do like the control you gain over the boons you acquire in a setup like this. The RnG from bountiful interruption interrupts becomes less of the main course and more the spice.