Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

in Mesmer

Posted by: Shinjusuke.9156

Shinjusuke.9156

No, not really. I’m actually here as a Mesmer, trying to help other Mesmers understand why our forum is full of trolls right now. Try to pay attention with an open mind, think back to your days in GW1 when Mesmers sucked as, and have a little empathy. Not saying the trolling and spamming is justified, but let me explain why it’s there. I should clarify I come from the perspective of someone who has played both classes in both games, prefers Mesmers in GW2 and Necros in GW1 (for a reason, as I’ll explain), and that I am speaking mainly regarding sPvP, though many of the flaws apply to PvE as well.

First, you have to get your head out of your kitten and look at the situation, WITHOUT just writing off the obvious design problems as kitten kids raging. They do have legitimate claims:

1)the fact that a Mesmer can repeatedly and forcibly unlock a Necro + force them to cycle through 2-3 clones EVERY time they’re forcibly unlocked ruins all Necro condition builds,

2) the fact that Mesmer Condition builds outclass Necro Condition by a mile right now when built for it (in damage, condition variety, and utility),

3) the fact that Mesmers are better Minion Masters due to their inexhaustible supply of minions + their ability to cause those minions to do cool, debilitating effects. Not to mention Minions on a necro take up utility skill slots, whereas Mesmers get them for free

4) The fact that Moa has completely ruined minion-master Necros (nerfed or not, it’s still a forcible destruction of all necro minions + forcing them on CD)

5) The fact that they have access to a ton more self-buffs than necros, including the dreaded retaliation, and on top of this have tons of escapes to Necro’s 1 (flesh worm, with a long channel time. DS isn’t an escape against any skilled opponent),

6) The amazing synergy to Mesmer kits, as opposed to the current disparity all throughout Necro kits

7) the difference in usefulness between Mesmer and Necro class skills (meaning the f1-f4, DS is hated by most all Necros because it’s essentially useless in PvP, most view it as nothing but a crappy shield + a short fear)

8) The obvious difference in ANets attention paid between the two classes (the last post from a red in the Necro forums was months ago), not to mention the obvious interest in design creativity between the two (look at ANY of the weapons comparitively in their range groups: Necro Staff vs Mesmer Staff for example)..

You get the idea. I could go on but as an avid GW1 Necro, they butchered the GW2 Necro, made the Mesmer a similar class that does literally EVERYTHING a Necro can do but better (except fear of course, unless you go condition Mesmer in PvP and use Nightmare runes, which I do. Works great btw), and then they just dropped interest in making Necro a fun, creative, or “good” class.
The trolls are annoying, sure, but at least be aware that there are 3 really strong reasons they’re here:

1) Devs have completely ignored Necros for months now

2) Mesmers counter Necros in every possible way, no matter what Necro build you’re using.

3) Mesmers outshine Necros in their own territory. Any Necro build except for the relatively new fear builds can be built on a Mesmer and be built better right now.

Unfortunately, until ANet gets their heads out of their kitten about these issues, the trolls will keep coming, and though they shouldn’t be mad at the Mesmer community, the fact that Mesmers have a tendency to outright deny that they’re the favorite child, and that they sort of “stole” the Necro class, isn’t helping either. ANet needs to do something about these two classes.
Mesmers got attention when their community complained about them being useless in GW1, but the same issue is happening for Necros in GW2 and NOTHING is being done about it.
As someone who has played, and loved, both classes in both games, I’m trying to explain that they’re probably right about this, I play more Mesmer than Necro in GW2 because the GW2 Mesmer IS the GW1 Necro as far as its mechanics are concerned, and the GW2 Necro is just.. laughable. I play it as a homage to GW1’s Necro, that’s about it.
All I’m saying is cut them a break, they’re kitten off for a good reason, and the constant gloating/denial of a problem from the Mesmer community isn’t helping… Remember how much is sucked to be a Mesmer in it’s early days in GW1. It’s arguably worse for Necros right now, and we need to get ANet to care.

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

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Posted by: Pyroatheist.9031

Pyroatheist.9031

No, not really. I’m actually here as a Mesmer, trying to help other Mesmers understand why our forum is full of trolls right now.

Yes….it’s because you’re still here, making useless whine threads as usual…

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

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Posted by: knight.8926

knight.8926

“2) the fact that Mesmer Condition builds outclass Necro Condition by a mile right now when built for it (in damage, condition variety, and utility),”

I don’t agree with this. Their condition dmg is superior to ours. The stacks and speed of stacks they do is borderline insane

P.S. Also if I don’t pay attention to the stacks of conditions they stack on me I’m dead. It’s ridiculous how many they can put on you on a short amount of time.

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Posted by: Shinjusuke.9156

Shinjusuke.9156

“2) the fact that Mesmer Condition builds outclass Necro Condition by a mile right now when built for it (in damage, condition variety, and utility),”

I don’t agree with this. Their condition dmg is superior to ours. The stacks and speed of stacks they do is borderline insane

P.S. Also if I don’t pay attention to the stacks of conditions they stack on me I’m dead. It’s ridiculous how many they can put on you on a short amount of time.

While you have a point, surely, we outclass them in both variety and avoidability. Meaning, although they can drop a ton of stacks, there’s enough condition cleanses in the game that a Necro’s stacks can quickly become irrelevant, and mostly its bleed and poison, with the occasional spite signet to get their scepter 3 off. Meanwhile, we can hit every condition in the book, have them in reliable rates as opposed to the 1 shot burst Necros have (which gets cleansed), and if you’re using a staff you can buff yourself the entire time you’re doing this.
We also have escapes, and we can burst just as well as they can (through traits, your clones can put a ton of stacks on while they’re attacking and explode for even more), though we might end up with a few less bleeds in exchange for more burns, confusions, and dazes.

As for them putting stacks on you, we’ve always got the ability to steal their boons and hand them back some of those annoying bleeds, or just plain disengage, heal, and come back while their burst is on CD

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

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Posted by: Shinjusuke.9156

Shinjusuke.9156

No, not really. I’m actually here as a Mesmer, trying to help other Mesmers understand why our forum is full of trolls right now.

Yes….it’s because you’re still here, making useless whine threads as usual…

These are the people I’m talking about: You’re the one whining, and you’re the reason there’s this issue in the first place. If you want to sit there and deny an obvious issue fine, but don’t flame about it. I made the thread so people would understand WHY there are whine threads beyond the mindless raging, if you don’t like it you don’t have to read it.

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

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Posted by: Pyroatheist.9031

Pyroatheist.9031

1)the fact that a Mesmer can repeatedly and forcibly unlock a Necro + force them to cycle through 2-3 clones EVERY time they’re forcibly unlocked ruins all Necro condition builds

What are you even talking about?

2) the fact that Mesmer Condition builds outclass Necro Condition by a mile right now when built for it (in damage, condition variety, and utility)

This is so patently false. Necro condition builds are the best in the game, no contest. You have more abilities to play with, apply, and remove conditions than anyone else. Your damaging conditions are bleed and poison, which you can stack massive amounts of continually, along with large amounts of other disabling conditions. Mesmers do confusion, bleeding, and burning, and the only one we’re actually good at stacking is confusion.

3) the fact that Mesmers are better Minion Masters due to their inexhaustible supply of minions + their ability to cause those minions to do cool, debilitating effects. Not to mention Minions on a necro take up utility skill slots, whereas Mesmers get them for free

No argument here.

4) The fact that Moa has completely ruined minion-master Necros (nerfed or not, it’s still a forcible destruction of all necro minions + forcing them on CD)

A non-issue. Moa is a crap elite, and any mesmer using it should be ashamed of themselves. Moa may counter minion-master necros….but so does everything else.

5) The fact that they have access to a ton more self-buffs than necros, including the dreaded retaliation, and on top of this have tons of escapes to Necro’s 1 (flesh worm, with a long channel time. DS isn’t an escape against any skilled opponent)

The necro playstyle is different than mesmer. You have a ton of hp, very good access to might stacking, good access to retaliation as well, and even regen. Your class mechanic is a massive amount of health in the form of death shroud. Necros play extremely differently than mesmers. If you hate the necro playstyle so much, then stop playing necro.

6) The amazing synergy to Mesmer kits, as opposed to the current disparity all throughout Necro kits

There’s a ton of necro kits that work very well together. You have the aforementioned might stacking, condition playing utilities along with condition stacking, things that enhance defense…if you think there’s no synergy in necro kits, you need to look harder and play better.

7) the difference in usefulness between Mesmer and Necro class skills (meaning the f1-f4, DS is hated by most all Necros because it’s essentially useless in PvP, most view it as nothing but a crappy shield + a short fear)

Last I checked, DS is an awesome mechanic that provides necros with an additional toolset, large amounts of utility, and a significant durability boost. Good necros know how to use it, but it seems that you aren’t one of them.

8) The obvious difference in ANets attention paid between the two classes (the last post from a red in the Necro forums was months ago), not to mention the obvious interest in design creativity between the two (look at ANY of the weapons comparitively in their range groups: Necro Staff vs Mesmer Staff for example)..

Most of the red posts in the mesmer forums are to acknowledge that they broke yet another skill in the most recent patch. If that’s the sort of attention you want, then by all means you can have it.

There’s your in-depth and detailed analysis of why your arguments are bogus. Now please stop whining and go back to your own forums.

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

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Posted by: Dub.1273

Dub.1273

That comparison the OP did is just cruel. So wrong that it hurts.

Dub | [rT]
#LoveArrows2013, never forget.

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Posted by: Teina.6295

Teina.6295

1)the fact that a Mesmer can repeatedly and forcibly unlock a Necro + force them to cycle through 2-3 clones EVERY time they’re forcibly unlocked ruins all Necro condition builds

What are you even talking about?

2) the fact that Mesmer Condition builds outclass Necro Condition by a mile right now when built for it (in damage, condition variety, and utility)

This is so patently false. Necro condition builds are the best in the game, no contest. You have more abilities to play with, apply, and remove conditions than anyone else. Your damaging conditions are bleed and poison, which you can stack massive amounts of continually, along with large amounts of other disabling conditions. Mesmers do confusion, bleeding, and burning, and the only one we’re actually good at stacking is confusion.

3) the fact that Mesmers are better Minion Masters due to their inexhaustible supply of minions + their ability to cause those minions to do cool, debilitating effects. Not to mention Minions on a necro take up utility skill slots, whereas Mesmers get them for free

No argument here.

4) The fact that Moa has completely ruined minion-master Necros (nerfed or not, it’s still a forcible destruction of all necro minions + forcing them on CD)

A non-issue. Moa is a crap elite, and any mesmer using it should be ashamed of themselves. Moa may counter minion-master necros….but so does everything else.

5) The fact that they have access to a ton more self-buffs than necros, including the dreaded retaliation, and on top of this have tons of escapes to Necro’s 1 (flesh worm, with a long channel time. DS isn’t an escape against any skilled opponent)

The necro playstyle is different than mesmer. You have a ton of hp, very good access to might stacking, good access to retaliation as well, and even regen. Your class mechanic is a massive amount of health in the form of death shroud. Necros play extremely differently than mesmers. If you hate the necro playstyle so much, then stop playing necro.

6) The amazing synergy to Mesmer kits, as opposed to the current disparity all throughout Necro kits

There’s a ton of necro kits that work very well together. You have the aforementioned might stacking, condition playing utilities along with condition stacking, things that enhance defense…if you think there’s no synergy in necro kits, you need to look harder and play better.

7) the difference in usefulness between Mesmer and Necro class skills (meaning the f1-f4, DS is hated by most all Necros because it’s essentially useless in PvP, most view it as nothing but a crappy shield + a short fear)

Last I checked, DS is an awesome mechanic that provides necros with an additional toolset, large amounts of utility, and a significant durability boost. Good necros know how to use it, but it seems that you aren’t one of them.

8) The obvious difference in ANets attention paid between the two classes (the last post from a red in the Necro forums was months ago), not to mention the obvious interest in design creativity between the two (look at ANY of the weapons comparitively in their range groups: Necro Staff vs Mesmer Staff for example)..

Most of the red posts in the mesmer forums are to acknowledge that they broke yet another skill in the most recent patch. If that’s the sort of attention you want, then by all means you can have it.

There’s your in-depth and detailed analysis of why your arguments are bogus. Now please stop whining and go back to your own forums.

I love you and your answers couldnt agree more ^^

Back on topic. The synergy created by DS skill and Utility allow u to 80% uptime of fury constant Bleeding spam on all attacks(on crit / by default / and an eventual sigil) (if u wanna compare Condition build) and a constant 15 – 18 stack of bleeding on an averange player in wvw , having a standard codition duration of 50 – 100% duration (having less is possible if u are blinded and use your head to smash the keyboard while making ur spec) please dont forget that mesmer cant transfer/cleanse condition at will while u can all the time (staff + dagger offhand + utility) with easy access cooldowns .. when a necro die from condition or confusion they should simply go crying in a corners since it’s the 2 best condition class in the game… and only class that can easily toy with them

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Meaning, although they can drop a ton of stacks, there’s enough condition cleanses in the game that a Necro’s stacks can quickly become irrelevant, and mostly its bleed and poison, with the occasional spite signet to get their scepter 3 off. Meanwhile, we can hit every condition in the book, have them in reliable rates as opposed to the 1 shot burst Necros have (which gets cleansed),

Not by mesmers… Tourney 20/20/0/0/30 build
You have major traits mental torment, shattered concentration, blade training (phantasmal fury) deceptive evasion, precise wrack illusionary invigoration and ipersona…. In skills you will likely have 1-2 stun breaks and portal… so condition cleanses? no… Mesmer sucks at it worse than anyone.. by far… Necros hand my rear to me with conditions… We have the least amount of cleanses in the game… Which means that unless we trait for it or use a slot skill we get NONE.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

Another Necro thread!.. Okay.. not really.

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Posted by: MrForz.1953

MrForz.1953

Mesmer sucks at it worse than anyone.. by far… Necros hand my rear to me with conditions… We have the least amount of cleanses in the game… Which means that unless we trait for it or use a slot skill we get NONE.

Just like most of classes.

Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Thief – Jade Quarry.

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Posted by: Bull Zooker.1672

Bull Zooker.1672

coming from playing a necro to checking out the mesmer forums… im confident my necro can ‘out condition’ your mesmer. unless of course your mesmer can apply and maintain 17-25 stack of bleeds and baring in mind I can turn ur conditions against you (multiple times)

Grandad Fester / Unruly Pigeon – Necromancer by trade

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Mesmer sucks at it worse than anyone.. by far… Necros hand my rear to me with conditions… We have the least amount of cleanses in the game… Which means that unless we trait for it or use a slot skill we get NONE.

Just like most of classes.

Thief-2 heal skills remove conditions, Guard-Passive condition removal with heal signet, Necro-Consume conditions, Ele-Ether Renewal-Engi gets a trait in one of their strongest (strongest) Trait line that removes conditions with elixirs, Ranger can passively send it to its pet . Mesmer-Menders purity (ONLY way we can get it in a heal skill) and its just one…. SO yes we are the worst class in this game when it comes to condition removal… This is intended… Stop trying to get us nerfed based off of something that is false (condition removal lol). And when I said slot skill I meant the utility slots outside of healing skill.

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: Pyroatheist.9031

Pyroatheist.9031

Mesmer sucks at it worse than anyone.. by far… Necros hand my rear to me with conditions… We have the least amount of cleanses in the game… Which means that unless we trait for it or use a slot skill we get NONE.

Just like most of classes.

Thief-2 heal skills remove conditions, Guard-Passive condition removal with heal signet, Necro-Consume conditions, Ele-Ether Renewal-Engi gets a trait in one of their strongest (strongest) Trait line that removes conditions with elixirs, Ranger can passively send it to its pet . Mesmer-Menders purity (ONLY way we can get it in a heal skill) and its just one…. SO yes we are the worst class in this game when it comes to condition removal… This is intended… Stop trying to get us nerfed based off of something that is false (condition removal lol). And when I said slot skill I meant the utility slots outside of healing skill.

I’m gonna have to rate this as slightly misleading.

Mesmers do have a quite low baseline for condition removal. However, like everything else we do, we can choose to specialize into it and never have a condition touch us again. Between mender’s purity and shattered conditions, that’s already more removal than a lot of classes can get. Taking focus for the light field whirl finisher provides a lot more, and you can even take the mantra, thievery, or null field.

Condition removal on Mesmer is only bad if you let it be. Specializing into it makes us extremely effective at dumping conditions.

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Posted by: Kazhiel.8194

Kazhiel.8194

The original poster is just a troll, his whole post was lolsy

Jalliel [AI] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: MrForz.1953

MrForz.1953

Thief-2 heal skills remove conditions, Guard-Passive condition removal with heal signet, Necro-Consume conditions, Ele-Ether Renewal-Engi gets a trait in one of their strongest (strongest) Trait line that removes conditions with elixirs, Ranger can passively send it to its pet . Mesmer-Menders purity (ONLY way we can get it in a heal skill) and its just one…. SO yes we are the worst class in this game when it comes to condition removal… This is intended… Stop trying to get us nerfed based off of something that is false (condition removal lol). And when I said slot skill I meant the utility slots outside of healing skill.

Precisely, and I’ll send my engi there as example, I don’t use 409, which means that I can only use Elixir C and the Antidote from Med kit to try to cure my conditions (lal). You shouldn’t expect to have the advantage against a conditioner when you’re not investing anything into condition removal. On top of this, I never meant to complain. You shouldn’t get worked up, last thing a Mesmer needs is Guardian-like Condition Removal.

Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Thief – Jade Quarry.

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Thief-2 heal skills remove conditions, Guard-Passive condition removal with heal signet, Necro-Consume conditions, Ele-Ether Renewal-Engi gets a trait in one of their strongest (strongest) Trait line that removes conditions with elixirs, Ranger can passively send it to its pet . Mesmer-Menders purity (ONLY way we can get it in a heal skill) and its just one…. SO yes we are the worst class in this game when it comes to condition removal… This is intended… Stop trying to get us nerfed based off of something that is false (condition removal lol). And when I said slot skill I meant the utility slots outside of healing skill.

Precisely, and I’ll send my engi there as example, I don’t use 409, which means that I can only use Elixir C and the Antidote from Med kit to try to cure my conditions (lal). You shouldn’t expect to have the advantage against a conditioner when you’re not investing anything into condition removal. On top of this, I never meant to complain. You shouldn’t get worked up, last thing a Mesmer needs is Guardian-like Condition Removal.

And the antidote from med kit has how short of a CD? And formula 409 is in which trait tree? Shattered Conditions is grand master meaning that the Mesmer has to specialize in that tree and even then it is ONE condition per shatter… Sacrificing damage else where (yes I know phantasmal strength is there) And in the long run mesmers are currently the ONLY class that does not get it in a heal skill(rangers have healing spring engis get the cleanse from turret and the medkit skill).. This should be fairly obvious that it was intended for our condition removal to be sub par compared to others… So the fact that a necro gripes about our condition removal as a ground for us being to strong just really irks me and is the last thing that would make a Mesmer too strong….

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

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Posted by: jportell.2197

jportell.2197

Mesmer sucks at it worse than anyone.. by far… Necros hand my rear to me with conditions… We have the least amount of cleanses in the game… Which means that unless we trait for it or use a slot skill we get NONE.

Just like most of classes.

Thief-2 heal skills remove conditions, Guard-Passive condition removal with heal signet, Necro-Consume conditions, Ele-Ether Renewal-Engi gets a trait in one of their strongest (strongest) Trait line that removes conditions with elixirs, Ranger can passively send it to its pet . Mesmer-Menders purity (ONLY way we can get it in a heal skill) and its just one…. SO yes we are the worst class in this game when it comes to condition removal… This is intended… Stop trying to get us nerfed based off of something that is false (condition removal lol). And when I said slot skill I meant the utility slots outside of healing skill.

Condition removal on Mesmer is only bad if you let it be. Specializing into it makes us extremely effective at dumping conditions.

Pyro take your build… How much of that condition removal is from being a Mesmer vs. it being from Runes and food…. Even you state that in PvP the build slightly suffers without the food buff to help remove conditions…. Specializing in condition removal will only make us marginally better and a whopping ONE per shatter in a grand master tree…. Doesn’t make it worth it because by going this deep into the tree… Your build is no longer a good shatter build… Its an annoying shatter build that won’t have IP… May have illusionary retribution and possibly have deceptive evasion… Inspiration is a great tree… Up until GM major… The traits just aren’t worth taking….

Johnny The Gray
GASM’s Bunker Mesmer

(edited by jportell.2197)

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Posted by: Kazhiel.8194

Kazhiel.8194

The final skills in the illusions tree don’t really fit the rest of the tree lol since all the phantasm stuff relies on you not shattering

Jalliel [AI] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Storm of the Ages.9076

Storm of the Ages.9076

Is this really a problem? I’m a guild wars 1/2 necro and I don’t really see a problem. Then again that might be because I was a rare blood spiker/vamp spirit tank after the skill revamp. The necro in gw2 feels nice. They didn’t give us a whole lot off life steal but thankfully they gave us a rather large life pool to play with instead. I don’t think the mesmer in any way matches that. Necros are fun! And they can only go up from here!

That being said, mesmers are alot of fun too. I couldn’t get into them in the first game, but the mesmer is my secondary class. It’s damage output is boss and some of the trollish things it can do are just amazing. They are a little glass though, but I dont mind.

Both classes are equally awesome and useful =)

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Posted by: station.6421

station.6421

coming from playing a necro to checking out the mesmer forums… im confident my necro can ‘out condition’ your mesmer. unless of course your mesmer can apply and maintain 17-25 stack of bleeds and baring in mind I can turn ur conditions against you (multiple times)

Mesmer Trident decimates Necro trident any condition build. It’d been a while since I had played mesmer, so I didn’t realize that they changed the trident to stack bleeds instead of confusion, but my jaw literally dropped when I saw I was hitting 20-25 bleed stack almost instantly after mirror images + trident 3 with illusionary elasticity + sharper images.

Ya, I know, “that’s underwater combat, who cares,” but it’s still pretty impressive :P