Guild Wars 2

I’m seeking a viable shatter build as opposed to the typical Phantasm 10/30/030/0 & 0/20/0/25/25 builds for PVE Dungeons/Fractals etc. I’ve done the usual Google search and found this as the most recent shatter build 20/20/0/0/30 (http://www.gw2db.com/skill-builds/1662-zensations-power-shatter-dungeon-build). The forum search tool wasn’t helpful either as it only found posts that had nothing to do with shatter builds.

My question is: Is there anything more viable or current than that?

I’m not looking to play Phantasm builds as I like the shatter playstyle and I like using the GS/Staff combo vs sticking with Sword/focus, Sword/X. I like the AOE damage and burst I can get from shatters and I dislike how phantasms disappear anyway after the target dies, bosses excluded of course. I’m trying to mess around and find a build out myself but if anyone knows anything better, all advise is appreciated.

Just use sword/focus Staff and go 0-20-20-0-30. Shatter every time they’re off cd. You can also use Sword sword staff because the blocks are nice for boss fights where you stack.

One more option is 0-20-0-20-30 if you really want focus reflect.

The trick to playing shatter in pve is pumping dodge clones and shattering often. Can’t tell you how many mesmers i see who hardly ever shatter…….IE most of them.

Godmoney.2048:

Can’t tell you how many mesmers i see who hardly ever shatter…….IE most of them.

That’s because shatter damage is terrible in dungeons. The biggest use for shatters in dungeons is f3 to put on vulnerability (if traited) and f4 for defense.

Shatter damage is as you have said, burst damage → highly effective at dropping targets in PvP but against target’s larger health pools in dungeons it is extremely ineffective.

Yes the phantasms die when the target they’re spawned on is killed, so you should shatter right as it is about to die, but until then you’ll do much better DPS by letting them live and continue to attack.

That said, 20/20/0/0/30 will work just fine for open world PvE as the content is extremely easy there with most mobs being normal (or bronze vets) and having smaller health pools where shatters are effective.

In dungeons however you’ll be facing mobs of a higher level than you, silver vets, and champ/legendary bosses. If you want to be doing anything approaching decent dps you’ll need phantasms that stay alive.

I’m sorry I can’t help you more, but that really is the harsh truth of it. The reason why you see sword/focus builds going 10/30/0/20/10 and 0/20/0/25/25 and cannot find shatter builds is because the phantasm builds bring the best support/damage to the party while the shatter builds do not.

durend.6237:

Godmoney.2048:

Can’t tell you how many mesmers i see who hardly ever shatter…….IE most of them.

That’s because shatter damage is terrible in dungeons. The biggest use for shatters in dungeons is f3 to put on vulnerability (if traited) and f4 for defense.

Shatter damage is as you have said, burst damage -> highly effective at dropping targets in PvP but against target’s larger health pools in dungeons it is extremely ineffective.

Yes the phantasms die when the target they’re spawned on is killed, so you should shatter right as it is about to die, but until then you’ll do much better DPS by letting them live and continue to attack.

That said, 20/20/0/0/30 will work just fine for open world PvE as the content is extremely easy there with most mobs being normal (or bronze vets) and having smaller health pools where shatters are effective.

In dungeons however you’ll be facing mobs of a higher level than you, silver vets, and champ/legendary bosses. If you want to be doing anything approaching decent dps you’ll need phantasms that stay alive.

I’m sorry I can’t help you more, but that really is the harsh truth of it. The reason why you see sword/focus builds going 10/30/0/20/10 and 0/20/0/25/25 and cannot find shatter builds is because the phantasm builds bring the best support/damage to the party while the shatter builds do not.

Meh, i play shatter in pve all the time. Shatter builds can do very good dps and will really shine in path 2 of CoF or anywhere tons of aoe damage is needed. Personally I can’t stand phantasm builds in dungeons. I shatter off of cd, most people do not.

Godmoney.2048:

durend.6237:

Godmoney.2048:

Can’t tell you how many mesmers i see who hardly ever shatter…….IE most of them.

That’s because shatter damage is terrible in dungeons. The biggest use for shatters in dungeons is f3 to put on vulnerability (if traited) and f4 for defense.

Shatter damage is as you have said, burst damage -> highly effective at dropping targets in PvP but against target’s larger health pools in dungeons it is extremely ineffective.

Yes the phantasms die when the target they’re spawned on is killed, so you should shatter right as it is about to die, but until then you’ll do much better DPS by letting them live and continue to attack.

That said, 20/20/0/0/30 will work just fine for open world PvE as the content is extremely easy there with most mobs being normal (or bronze vets) and having smaller health pools where shatters are effective.

In dungeons however you’ll be facing mobs of a higher level than you, silver vets, and champ/legendary bosses. If you want to be doing anything approaching decent dps you’ll need phantasms that stay alive.

I’m sorry I can’t help you more, but that really is the harsh truth of it. The reason why you see sword/focus builds going 10/30/0/20/10 and 0/20/0/25/25 and cannot find shatter builds is because the phantasm builds bring the best support/damage to the party while the shatter builds do not.

Meh, i play shatter in pve all the time. Shatter builds can do very good dps and will really shine in path 2 of CoF or anywhere tons of aoe damage is needed. Personally I can’t stand phantasm builds in dungeons. I shatter off of cd, most people do not.

Well, shatter builds simply have lower dps than phantasm builds, full stop, as well has having minimal support utility.

Shatter is great in PvP because burst damage is great. However, shatter dps is far lower than any reasonable phantasm build, even in aoe situations. With the iZerker and iWarden, a phantasm build can still output significantly more damage than a shatter build.

Edit: Additionally, a 0/20/20/0/30 build is going to have your shatters collectively hitting like slapping mobs with a wet noodle. Mental torment is absolutely required to do any sort of reasonable dps with shatters.

Godmoney.2048:

durend.6237:

Godmoney.2048:

Can’t tell you how many mesmers i see who hardly ever shatter…….IE most of them.

That’s because shatter damage is terrible in dungeons. The biggest use for shatters in dungeons is f3 to put on vulnerability (if traited) and f4 for defense.

Shatter damage is as you have said, burst damage -> highly effective at dropping targets in PvP but against target’s larger health pools in dungeons it is extremely ineffective.

Yes the phantasms die when the target they’re spawned on is killed, so you should shatter right as it is about to die, but until then you’ll do much better DPS by letting them live and continue to attack.

That said, 20/20/0/0/30 will work just fine for open world PvE as the content is extremely easy there with most mobs being normal (or bronze vets) and having smaller health pools where shatters are effective.

In dungeons however you’ll be facing mobs of a higher level than you, silver vets, and champ/legendary bosses. If you want to be doing anything approaching decent dps you’ll need phantasms that stay alive.

I’m sorry I can’t help you more, but that really is the harsh truth of it. The reason why you see sword/focus builds going 10/30/0/20/10 and 0/20/0/25/25 and cannot find shatter builds is because the phantasm builds bring the best support/damage to the party while the shatter builds do not.

Meh, i play shatter in pve all the time. Shatter builds can do very good dps and will really shine in path 2 of CoF or anywhere tons of aoe damage is needed. Personally I can’t stand phantasm builds in dungeons. I shatter off of cd, most people do not.

There’s a reason no one plays shatter builds in dungeons – it takes far more effort to sustain while simultaneously producing significantly less DPS. There’s literally zero reason to run shatter builds over phantasm builds in dungeons. The most useful shatter in dungeons is the F4 and you don’t even really need to spec into illusions to make use of that.

Sure, want me to post Osicat’s links to him saying shatter builds work perfectly well in pve? Oh yeah i use them everyday. They work fine.

Just try stuff. As long as you’re not using scepter torch almost any build works very well for pve.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Godmoney.2048:

durend.6237:

Godmoney.2048:

Can’t tell you how many mesmers i see who hardly ever shatter…….IE most of them.

That’s because shatter damage is terrible in dungeons. The biggest use for shatters in dungeons is f3 to put on vulnerability (if traited) and f4 for defense.

Shatter damage is as you have said, burst damage -> highly effective at dropping targets in PvP but against target’s larger health pools in dungeons it is extremely ineffective.

Yes the phantasms die when the target they’re spawned on is killed, so you should shatter right as it is about to die, but until then you’ll do much better DPS by letting them live and continue to attack.

That said, 20/20/0/0/30 will work just fine for open world PvE as the content is extremely easy there with most mobs being normal (or bronze vets) and having smaller health pools where shatters are effective.

In dungeons however you’ll be facing mobs of a higher level than you, silver vets, and champ/legendary bosses. If you want to be doing anything approaching decent dps you’ll need phantasms that stay alive.

I’m sorry I can’t help you more, but that really is the harsh truth of it. The reason why you see sword/focus builds going 10/30/0/20/10 and 0/20/0/25/25 and cannot find shatter builds is because the phantasm builds bring the best support/damage to the party while the shatter builds do not.

Meh, i play shatter in pve all the time. Shatter builds can do very good dps and will really shine in path 2 of CoF or anywhere tons of aoe damage is needed. Personally I can’t stand phantasm builds in dungeons. I shatter off of cd, most people do not.

Well, shatter builds simply have lower dps than phantasm builds, full stop, as well has having minimal support utility.

Shatter is great in PvP because burst damage is great. However, shatter dps is far lower than any reasonable phantasm build, even in aoe situations. With the iZerker and iWarden, a phantasm build can still output significantly more damage than a shatter build.

Edit: Additionally, a 0/20/20/0/30 build is going to have your shatters collectively hitting like slapping mobs with a wet noodle. Mental torment is absolutely required to do any sort of reasonable dps with shatters.

0-20-20-0-30 hits like a wet noodle? That’s funny because it works great for me. Maybe you’re gear is out of date? Oh yeah you use pvt gear right?

I use full rampager with that spec. Maybe that changes things? You think?

BTW, the guy is asking for a “viable” pve build, not ideal. There’s a difference.

Godmoney.2048:

BTW, the guy is asking for a “viable” pve build, not ideal. There’s a difference.

You can run pretty much everything in pve and still win. 0/20/20/0/30 is viable… But defense is simply not needed in dungeons, aka the Chaos line.

Rampager gear doesnt work well btw. Youd be much better off with berserker. Its ok, but the condition damage is a wasted stat.

Alissah.9281:

Godmoney.2048:

BTW, the guy is asking for a “viable” pve build, not ideal. There’s a difference.

You can run pretty much everything in pve and still win. 0/20/20/0/30 is viable… But defense is simply not needed in dungeons, aka the Chaos line.

Rampager gear doesnt work well btw. Youd be much better off with berserker. Its ok, but the condition damage is a wasted stat.

I have every single set for my mesmer. Well not every set, just full Clerics, Rampagers, 2 sets of zerkers, Carrion, Rabid, Celestial. PVT is a waste on mesmer imo.

And yeah i would run zerker for pve, but personally i stopped running mesmer in pve months ago when I discovered the Healway guardian spec.

Running mesmer in pve is generally a waste period considering Guardians are pve gods. I’d take a group of 2 guardians 2 warriors 1 thief anyday for skipping mobs and general pve.

Oh yeah one set is missing here because im wearing it. Needless to say i’ve sunk some time into this class.

Shatter builds are also pretty bad in PvE because they usually take utility slots for mirror images or decoy. However the team is much better with a mesmer that is able to use feedback, nullfield or mantras or even a portal.

A build who forces you to use certain utility skills is simply a bad build. And shatter without additional clone production is just … well … a weak phantasm build or a single clone shatterer.

Viable yes, good no.

Xyonon.3987:

Shatter builds are also pretty bad in PvE because they usually take utility slots for mirror images or decoy. However the team is much better with a mesmer that is able to use feedback, nullfield or mantras or even a portal.

A build who forces you to use certain utility skills is simply a bad build. And shatter without additional clone production is just … well … a weak phantasm build or a single clone shatterer.

Viable yes, good no.

If you really want to get real about it…….make a guardian. Guardians just make pve easy.

Godmoney.2048:

0-20-20-0-30 hits like a wet noodle? That’s funny because it works great for me. Maybe you’re gear is out of date? Oh yeah you use pvt gear right?

I use full rampager with that spec. Maybe that changes things? You think?

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Pyroatheist.9031:

Godmoney.2048:

0-20-20-0-30 hits like a wet noodle? That’s funny because it works great for me. Maybe you’re gear is out of date? Oh yeah you use pvt gear right?

I use full rampager with that spec. Maybe that changes things? You think?

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Are you saying that gear that is full offensive stats hits like a feather? That just doesn’t hold water on the most basic levels of common sense.

Godmoney.2048:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Godmoney.2048:

0-20-20-0-30 hits like a wet noodle? That’s funny because it works great for me. Maybe you’re gear is out of date? Oh yeah you use pvt gear right?

I use full rampager with that spec. Maybe that changes things? You think?

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Are you saying that gear that is full offensive stats hits like a feather? That just doesn’t hold water on the most basic levels of common sense.

The problem is that rampagers has the wrong offensive stats. Lets take a look.

You’re in a shatter build (this actually doesn’t matter for this analysis). Your damage comes from power based damage. Your condition application is nigh nonexistent. This means that any and all condition damage is wasted.

Rampagers is power, Precision, and condition damage. This means that 1 of the 3 stats on there is completely wasted.

Power damage is significantly amplified by high critical chance along with high critical power.

Rampagers has high precision, which is good for that critical chance, but it unfortunately lacks any critical power whatsoever, which means that your crits are going to be unfortunately wimpy.

In the best of circumstances, in a full zerker build, 0/20/20/0/30 is going to be doing at least 20% less damage than 20/20/0/0/30. If you add on the fact that you’re using rampagers instead of berserkers gear, your damage will be incredibly abysmal.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Godmoney.2048:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Godmoney.2048:

0-20-20-0-30 hits like a wet noodle? That’s funny because it works great for me. Maybe you’re gear is out of date? Oh yeah you use pvt gear right?

I use full rampager with that spec. Maybe that changes things? You think?

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Are you saying that gear that is full offensive stats hits like a feather? That just doesn’t hold water on the most basic levels of common sense.

The problem is that rampagers has the wrong offensive stats. Lets take a look.

You’re in a shatter build (this actually doesn’t matter for this analysis). Your damage comes from power based damage. Your condition application is nigh nonexistent. This means that any and all condition damage is wasted.

Rampagers is power, Precision, and condition damage. This means that 1 of the 3 stats on there is completely wasted.

Power damage is significantly amplified by high critical chance along with high critical power.

Rampagers has high precision, which is good for that critical chance, but it unfortunately lacks any critical power whatsoever, which means that your crits are going to be unfortunately wimpy.

In the best of circumstances, in a full zerker build, 0/20/20/0/30 is going to be doing at least 20% less damage than 20/20/0/0/30. If you add on the fact that you’re using rampagers instead of berserkers gear, your damage will be incredibly abysmal.

So you’re saying that a shatter build gets no condi damage? Pretty sure every shatter applies confusion. Not to mention that every crit bleeds which with staff traited is nasty.

A little weird I have to say coming from a person who actually runs pvt on mesmer to claim Rampager has bad dps.

I’ve never had trouble in Rampager. In fact rampager works very well for mesmer, though personally i like to have 3 pieces of zerker jewlery on to make the shatter pop a little bit.

Wasted condi damage on shatters? I feel weird that i actually have to link stuff from the wiki? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharper_Images Never notice this trait?

or this one?http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Retribution

or this one http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Misdirection

Godmoney.2048:

If you really want to get real about it…….make a guardian. Guardians just make pve easy.

There is no 5 man same class party that is better than any different classes combination. Guards are like something between warrior and mesmer. Good damage and plenty of utility. However I’ve never seen a Guardian clean conditions efficient or stack vulnerability so good aswell remove boons. And I guess I don’t have to mention a almost 200k passive damage elite, do I? Every class has it’s + and -. But Guard > Mesmer is just as stupid as Class X > Class Y.

Godmoney.2048:

Pyroatheist.9031:

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Are you saying that gear that is full offensive stats hits like a feather? That just doesn’t hold water on the most basic levels of common sense.

Full rampagers isn’t that great to be honest. In general direct damage deals about 2-4 times as much damage as condition damage, depending on allies and enemies. So everyone goes full zerker wich makes sense. So should you do for shatter builds if they are focused on F1 and not F2. However any shatter build is traiting some condition damage passive aswell F2. But now it’s about you to go for the crappy condition damage in pve wich is in the mesmers case just confusion or just stay focused on power and zerker and trait F3 to be a serious damage dealer.

The passed weekend I played a full condition shatter mesmer to learn more about our class. I had 2400 condition damage and still dealt like 25%-50% of a power build. The highest confusion tick was about 8k but just once and then it disappeared and left me with cd’s.

Zerker Mesmer – maybe kitten – but 0 condition damage – plz. (PvE)

Pyroatheist.9031:

Godmoney.2048:

0-20-20-0-30 hits like a wet noodle? That’s funny because it works great for me. Maybe you’re gear is out of date? Oh yeah you use pvt gear right?

I use full rampager with that spec. Maybe that changes things? You think?

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Hey, tickling is part of the most efficient fighting techniques known to mankind!

Ive never been, or have tickled with a feather, but its probably just as effective as without, or even more!

edit: on a serious note: lately ive had alot of people ask/tell me about the “condition shatter spec with rampager 0/20/20/0/30”, especially in pvp. Theyd ask me if its still viable after a patch, or if i have tips for playing it… Well, I don’t.

I know quite some Mesmers whom I do pvp tourneys with, who use it. I usually ask thwm to use something better for tourney, but it never really works :/. “Condi shatter” seems to be some meta I dont know anything about O.o

Xyonon.3987:

Godmoney.2048:

If you really want to get real about it…….make a guardian. Guardians just make pve easy.

There is no 5 man same class party that is better than any different classes combination. Guards are like something between warrior and mesmer. Good damage and plenty of utility. However And I guess I don’t have to mention a almost 200k passive damage elite, do I? Every class has it’s + and -. But Guard > Mesmer is just as stupid as Class X > Class Y.

Godmoney.2048:

Pyroatheist.9031:

If you’re using full rampagers, then I retract my wet noodle statement.

It was far too generous.

How about tickling them with a feather?

Are you saying that gear that is full offensive stats hits like a feather? That just doesn’t hold water on the most basic levels of common sense.

Full rampagers isn’t that great to be honest. In general direct damage deals about 2-4 times as much damage as condition damage, depending on allies and enemies. So everyone goes full zerker wich makes sense. So should you do for shatter builds if they are focused on F1 and not F2. However any shatter build is traiting some condition damage passive aswell F2. But now it’s about you to go for the crappy condition damage in pve wich is in the mesmers case just confusion or just stay focused on power and zerker and trait F3 to be a serious damage dealer.

The passed weekend I played a full condition shatter mesmer to learn more about our class. I had 2400 condition damage and still dealt like 25%-50% of a power build. The highest confusion tick was about 8k but just once and then it disappeared and left me with cd’s.

Zerker Mesmer – maybe kitten – but 0 condition damage – plz.

LOL" I’ve never seen a Guardian clean conditions efficient or stack vulnerability so good aswell remove boons." http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice

To be honest – tickling was a serious method of torture in the dark age. You are able to die due the damage to your loungs. There was also the method to put salt on your body while goats where licking it off wich tickles and slowly removes the skin wich has been salted again until infections and painful death was the result …

Yes … just wanted to say that o.o’’

Godmoney.2048:

LOL" I’ve never seen a Guardian clean conditions efficient or stack vulnerability so good aswell remove boons." http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice

So you just proved that you don’t know what “efficiency” means.

Xyonon.3987:

To be honest – tickling was a serious method of torture in the dark age. You are able to die due the damage to your loungs. There was also the method to put salt on your body while goats where licking it off wich tickles and slowly removes the skin wich has been salted again until infections and painful death was the result …

Yes … just wanted to say that o.o’’

I will never want to be tickled again :/.

Xyonon.3987:

Godmoney.2048:

LOL" I’ve never seen a Guardian clean conditions efficient or stack vulnerability so good aswell remove boons." http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice

So you just proved that you don’t know what “efficiency” means.

Huh? Are you saying guardians pve is not efficient? HAHAHA Let me know once you have over 3000 hours played.

Gosh darn, to think of just how easy my guardian makes pve. AoE shouts with boon duration…..keeps groups alive.

I never enjoyed beeing tickled either gimme a hug :o it’s ok it’s ok … xD

Well ultimately it comes down to this.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That being said, some peoples opinions are wrong, and Godmoney happens to fall squarely into that category.

For PvE

Shatter is viable but not a good choice.

Using a condition damage build as a mesmer is not viable.

And what do you think about hybrid damage? Ever tried it Pyro? :o

Viable in the context of PvE means “a good idea”. Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s worth using otherwise the answer to every thread about viability would be yes. I think the only Mesmer build that wouldn’t work for PvE would be a condition sceptor/torch build.

dungeon ? just use phantasm build….

So let me get this straight.

Aoe shouts that convert condi’s to boons = worthless
Rampagers has no dps
Shatter is never viable in pve
0-20-20-0-30 has no dps (even though osicat uses it in his heavy shatter 3.0 build) (awesome build btw)
shatter builds don’t need and is in fact wasting condi damage ( even though we have traits to support condi on shatter)

That cleared that up.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Well ultimately it comes down to this.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That being said, some peoples opinions are wrong, and Godmoney happens to fall squarely into that category.

For PvE

Shatter is viable but not a good choice.

Using a condition damage build as a mesmer is not viable.

LOL, you’re so predictable.

leng jai.2961:

Viable in the context of PvE means “a good idea”. Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s worth using otherwise the answer to every thread about viability would be yes. I think the only Mesmer build that wouldn’t work for PvE would be a condition sceptor/torch build.

Or no brainer builds :P There are a lot of them xD. I guess viable means more like “is compareable with the casual phantasm build in damage and utility / support” aswell “doesn’t annoy your team more than helping”.

azizul.8469:

dungeon ? just use phantasm build….

“just use X” is allways a bad advice. It’s what the goverment does Do something and don’t think about what you are doing and if there is something better. There are so many ppl doing it like this so it must be the best way. WRONG! One does allways think he knows everything but if you ask him a month later he’s gonna tell you how much he didn’t knew that day. If he doesn’t – he made no procress.

Godmoney.2048:

So let me get this straight.

Aoe shouts that convert condi’s to boons = worthless
Rampagers has no dps
Shatter is never viable in pve
0-20-20-0-30 has no dps (even though osicat uses it in his heavy shatter 3.0 build) (awesome build btw)
shatter builds don’t need and is in fact wasting condi damage ( even though we have traits to support condi on shatter)

That cleared that up.

• You did not understand / you don’t want to understand
• …has a low dps compared to zerker in PvE
• …isn’t viable in PvE while focusing on conditions / rampagers
• Osicat plays PvP
• PvE =/= PvP deal with it already …

Xyonon.3987:

And what do you think about hybrid damage? Ever tried it Pyro? :o

Hybrid in pve is basically affected by all the same drawbacks as a full condie build, just to a lesser extent. It’s not as bad, but it’s still a poor choice.

Xyonon.3987:

leng jai.2961:

Viable in the context of PvE means “a good idea”. Just because it works doesn’t mean it’s worth using otherwise the answer to every thread about viability would be yes. I think the only Mesmer build that wouldn’t work for PvE would be a condition sceptor/torch build.

Or no brainer builds :P There are a lot of them xD. I guess viable means more like “is compareable with the casual phantasm build in damage and utility / support” aswell “doesn’t annoy your team more than helping”.

azizul.8469:

dungeon ? just use phantasm build….

“just use X” is allways a bad advice. It’s what the goverment does Do something and don’t think about what you are doing and if there is something better. There are so many ppl doing it like this so it must be the best way. WRONG! One does allways think he knows everything but if you ask him a month later he’s gonna tell you how much he didn’t knew that day. If he doesn’t – he made no procress.

Godmoney.2048:

So let me get this straight.

Aoe shouts that convert condi’s to boons = worthless
Rampagers has no dps
Shatter is never viable in pve
0-20-20-0-30 has no dps (even though osicat uses it in his heavy shatter 3.0 build) (awesome build btw)
shatter builds don’t need and is in fact wasting condi damage ( even though we have traits to support condi on shatter)

That cleared that up.

• You did not understand / you don’t want to understand
• …has a low dps compared to zerker in PvE
• …isn’t viable in PvE while focusing on conditions / rampagers
• Osicat plays PvP
• PvE =/= PvP deal with it already …

Yep, totally.

You obviously know what’s best.

Ok. First off, I suggested the phantasms builds as those are what the top PvE guilds are running for their speed clears and what a lot people are going to expect in LFG posts tagged with “speed”, “dps” or “experienced”

Godmoney.2048:

BTW, the guy is asking for a “viable” pve build, not ideal. There’s a difference.

Not interested in speed clears? Here’s some options. First thing to understand is mesmer is first and foremost a support class. With party buffs and 3 phantasms we are potentially the highest DPS in the game, but AoEs can often make that difficult if not impossible to sustain.

So what makes a mesmer desirable to parties over other classes?

• reflects
• condition removal
• boon removal
• boon doubling
• skipping support
• time warp

Guardian may boast the longest reflect, but mesmer by far has the most. 5 seconds off a warden’s attack with 5 seconds from a traited curtain and 6 from feedback. put that together with the warden’s ability to spin again and we can easily outpace a guardian in reflect uptime.

Certainly projectile protection isn’t needed in every dungeon, but it is important enough that I could not imagine a dungeon build – particularly focused on pugging – without putting 20 points in inspiration (glamour CDs and traited focus).

Boon/Condition removal can be summed up with null field. But the 1h sword auto chain, mantra of resolve and even iDisenchanter all deserve special mention and can work better then null field in specific situations.

Boon doubling comes down to signet of inspiration. and skipping support in party stealths or portal.

So if we focus on our support roles first we have: most of our utility skill taken up and 20 points in inspiration. This poses a serious problem for shatter builds.

Ignoring the fact that in some cases were going to want the utility of the warden/disenchanter rather then shatter them away. with 20 in inspiration we’re left with 50 points to play with.

3 things that help shatters deal damage:

• 20% damage trait (10 in domination)
• clones on dodge (20 in dueling)
• 4th shatter effect on you (30 in illusions)

To get all 3 we need 60 points, so were stuck with limiting our damage, or limiting our utility.

Since mesmer is a utility class, I am not going to sacrifice any of the utility of the inspiration line – especially since wardens could be shattered away. Since other utility skill slots will be taken up for utility I’m not going to want to waste one on clone generation, that and the precision/crit damage bonus from the tree 20 in dueling makes perfect sense.

From here the question is to get 20% damage or a 4th shatter effect. Given mesmer’s lack of other damage modifiers and the importance of shattering often, 30 in illusions is probably the best option. leaving us with 0/20(IV, X)/0/20(II, VIII)/30(I, III, XI)

By no means ideal, but if the goal is to supply all the utility that a mesmer should be bringing to dungeon parties and doing so with a shatter spec…. this is probably the best option available.

@ Godmoney: Your cynicism is slowly starting to ruin the ambiance in this thread. If you don’t have to say something productive, just let it be ok?

Edit: @ Durend: very good post, I hope everyone reads it clearly. It tells exactly the flaws of shatter builds and the adventages of phantasm builds.

I also want to mention that the inspiration traits are worth getting 30 points into, since there are so many good traits that can be easily swapped around if reflection is not needed, if heal is needed, if condition removal is needed, if phantasm health is needed (aoe). Most of the time phantasms regenerate their hp if they don’t die due the passive, but it’s again some forgotten passive too …

Xyonon.3987:

@ Godmoney: Your cynicism is slowly starting to ruin the ambiance in this thread. If you don’t have to say something productive, just let it be ok?

Edit: @ Durend: very good post, I hope everyone reads it clearly. It tells exactly the flaws of shatter builds and the adventages of phantasm builds.

I also want to mention that the inspiration traits are worth getting 30 points into, since there are so many good traits that can be easily swapped around if reflection is not needed, if heal is needed, if condition removal is needed, if phantasm health is needed (aoe). Most of the time phantasms regenerate their hp if they don’t die due the passive, but it’s again some forgotten passive too …

You’re right.

Who am I to think that shatter builds can possibly work in pve? How foolish of me.

Godmoney.2048:

Xyonon.3987:

@ Godmoney: Your cynicism is slowly starting to ruin the ambiance in this thread. If you don’t have to say something productive, just let it be ok?

Edit: @ Durend: very good post, I hope everyone reads it clearly. It tells exactly the flaws of shatter builds and the adventages of phantasm builds.

I also want to mention that the inspiration traits are worth getting 30 points into, since there are so many good traits that can be easily swapped around if reflection is not needed, if heal is needed, if condition removal is needed, if phantasm health is needed (aoe). Most of the time phantasms regenerate their hp if they don’t die due the passive, but it’s again some forgotten passive too …

You’re right.

Who am I to think that shatter builds can possibly work in pve? How foolish of me.

Work? Yes. Work well? No.

No one is saying that you CAN’T run shatter builds in dungeons. They’re arguing that you shouldn’t pretend that it’s better than it is. (see: not very good, relative to more popular alternatives).

If you find something fun, play it. Just don’t try to spread false information.

you all are wrong. 0/0/30/20/20 or 0/0/20/20/30 bunker build is the only way to go guys. let the build do all the work for you. minimal effort for effective results.

hybrid.5027:

Godmoney.2048:

Xyonon.3987:

@ Godmoney: Your cynicism is slowly starting to ruin the ambiance in this thread. If you don’t have to say something productive, just let it be ok?

Edit: @ Durend: very good post, I hope everyone reads it clearly. It tells exactly the flaws of shatter builds and the adventages of phantasm builds.

I also want to mention that the inspiration traits are worth getting 30 points into, since there are so many good traits that can be easily swapped around if reflection is not needed, if heal is needed, if condition removal is needed, if phantasm health is needed (aoe). Most of the time phantasms regenerate their hp if they don’t die due the passive, but it’s again some forgotten passive too …

You’re right.

Who am I to think that shatter builds can possibly work in pve? How foolish of me.

Work? Yes. Work well? No.

No one is saying that you CAN’T run shatter builds in dungeons. They’re arguing that you shouldn’t pretend that it’s better than it is. (see: not very good, relative to more popular alternatives).

If you find something fun, play it. Just don’t try to spread false information.

Who’s pretending? I never said shatter builds were better for pve. I just said they work fine. Who am I to stop someone from using a viable build? Was somebody recommending a scepter/torch build?

I can’t even remember the last time I did Arah or Fotm with a perfectly min maxed group nor is it even close to necessary for ANY of the pve in this game. We ran FOTM 38 tonight with 2 people who had ZERO AR. That’s how much it matters.

What’s the Attachment for? Looks like you need a °)° size comparison…

btt: Noone here said it’s unaviable either. Maybe you should read the whole comments isntead of what you want to see. If you argue with “I don’t need a poop to be good at XY” then why don’t you fight with white lv1 equip? I mean it doesn’t matter right? PvE is anyway a joke right? You can go 13/14/6/19/18 and still finish a lv infinite fractale eh?
Stop trying to search for a face-saver. You were wrong with how good shatter builds are in PvE, accept it and don’t try pretend that you don’t give a fk … cuz you do give one.

Shatter builds are not optimal for dungeons. Sure they can work for CoF but you could also do CoF naked and still win.

Phantasm builds are the best for dungeons and where Mesmer’s really shine are in Phantasm/Reflection builds. A phantasm build like 0/20/0/25/25 will work in most dungeons. However a 10/30/0/30/0 build is highly recommended for dungeons that need reflects like CoE, Arah and Fractals.

Mesmers aren’t wanted in high-level Fractals for their DPS, they are wanted for their Reflection.

Dont forget the skipping :P Best case would be swamp and then harpy. First you get Mossman axe, oneshot the champs at harpy frac then port up to endboss :P

Xyonon.3987:

Dont forget the skipping :P Best case would be swamp and then harpy. First you get Mossman axe, oneshot the champs at harpy frac then port up to endboss :P

I still need to find a video that shows how to port past the 2nd set of harpies after the golem. I also heard that it can bug out the last boss too if you skip?

if you skip and don’t trigger the raving asura talking sequence (i think) it bugs out.

As most have been saying, Shatter has pretty low sustained damage. Its pretty good for clearing trash in dungeons depending on the party though. I’d suggest a 10/30/0/0/30 build with Sword/Sword and Sword/Pistol. This trait setup and skills can be adjusted on the fly to bolster either Shatter or Phantasms. From my testing, sustained DPS in a Shatter setup was 54% lower then sustained Phantasm DPS. I had multiple people try this and we all came up with about the same result.

If you love shatter and have a patient group run this build and switch to Phantasms for any prolonged fight that your phantasms can stay alive in.

IMHO
Blood~

Xavi.6591:

Xyonon.3987:

Dont forget the skipping :P Best case would be swamp and then harpy. First you get Mossman axe, oneshot the champs at harpy frac then port up to endboss :P

I still need to find a video that shows how to port past the 2nd set of harpies after the golem. I also heard that it can bug out the last boss too if you skip?

Go quick before I get infracted!

And yea, ALWAYS run to the left (i.e. where you would enter from if you went past the harpies) to trigger the dialogue.

Wow didn’t think this would get so many replies as it had 0 for like 8 hours until I decided to abandon the issue.

Reading through the whole discussion was educational and affirmed what I had been testing myself. Just as Durend mentioned the build I was trying to go for ran from a mix of 20/20/0/0/30, 10/20/0/10/30, 0/20/0/20/30, to the 0/20/0/25/25 build.

It’s a hard decision and it came down to utility vs damage as mentioned as well. It’s pretty much wishful thinking to have a hybrid build, Shantasm? Phantarrer?, that does it all. My main gripe was the fact that the Phantasm builds are nice with the utility but I hate how the Phantasm’s dissappear after the target’s die. Also I liked the AOE, or “easier” AOE, that Shatter builds brought as I figured if my Phantasms are going to die I might as well make the most of them kamakaze style. I simply like the Shatter playstyle more as it seems more active than sitting back and letting 3 Phantasm go at it with an encounter(situational).

So far I’ve been sticking to the 0/20/0/25/25 build and just adjusted my traits accordingly and switching between staff and S/F and keeping GS as my permanent secondary. To note, the 10/20/0/10/30 build was decent if I decided to not use focus and wanted faster Glamour recharge but the loss of vuln on f3 and lower GS CD’s didn’t really come as a good trade off to me.

Still experimenting on what I like with how I play, really wish Illusionary Persona was a master tier trait.

I wouldn’t worry about the vuln as much. The duration is only 9~ seconds and since vuln time is halved on bosses it’s not going to be active very long. This translates into 4.5~ seconds of vuln that can be applied every 34~ seconds with 30 points in illusions.

To effectively stack vuln for bosses it needs to be a continuous effort using short CD skills(warriors axe 2), preferably auto attacks(engi’s vuln on explosions). For mesmer this is our 1h sword auto attack (5 second duration → 2.5 on bosses → 2 stacks per chain will keep nearly permanent 2 vuln stacks). The sword auto attack also cleaves so you’re applying vuln to more then just one target when fighting trash.

Even when running a fully specced phantasm build, you can still squeeze out a bit more DPS if you do shatter. This relies on knowing exactly what will 1 hit KO a phantasm, how long before the phantasm attacks and paying attention to enemy health. It’s usually a nice bit of AOE finisher. Not easy to pull off though and most ppl will just advise to never shatter in dungeons. It’s not as bad as people think though.

Comparing 20/20/0/0/30 Zerker to 0/20/20/0/30 Rampagers:
2309 power, 52% crit chance, +102% bonus crit dmg, and 300 condition dmg.
1734 power, 70% crit chance, +20% bonus crit dmg, and 1118 condition dmg.
Base power wise, the rampagers build does 60% of what the power build does. That ignores the 20% increase to MW dmg, the 15% phantasm damage and of course the vulnerability spike for up to 25% more group dmg. Basically you will do around half the power damage of a zerker build. Last of all, % dmg increases from potions, sigils, runes don’t affect conditions (or phantasms). These can boost your stabs/shatters a lot (10-46%) and multiply better with high power damage.

Bleed wise, 57 per tick vs 98 per tick. At 25 stacks, that’s 1000 extra damage per second… assuming no one else in the group is messing with your bleed stacks or that you will actually maintain 25 stacks. Realistically closer to 100-300 extra dps. Confusion wise, it’s an extra 100 dmg per stack. Nice vs a select few mobs but not much to nothing vs the majority.

3000 hours or multiple sets of armor doesn’t change the fact that rampagers will usually do 1/2 the dmg that a zerker build does in dungeons. Then factor in that reflects are based off of the mesmers crit chance/dmg and the rampagers build falls behind even more; like 1/4 or less. Sure, things will die eventually but I would not consider it viable.