Guild Wars 2

Anyone else hate the new trait system for the Mesmer?

Previously, Mesmers had traits that would boost and add effects to the utility skills. Now, it’s all about shatters.

I used a build based around Glamours, where the traits added extra conditions to them. All but one trait for Glamours have been taken away now. This is completely disappointing because of the amount of fun, pride, and work that I had in that build.

It’s not only that build, though. The same thing happened for Mantras.

I don’t really see the point in the new system at all. It’s less challenging, because of the stats no longer being bound to traits. There is less customization, because there are fewer traits, and an absolute limit to 3 trees, instead of being able to split up the points as the player sees fit for their style. Furthermore, one of the things that made GW2 different (not using trees) is gone.

I just wish ANet would actually add instead of taking away.

VenerateWarlock.2816:

It’s not only that build, though. The same thing happened for Mantras.

Uh, whaaaaat? Mantras and mantra traits are more potent than ever.

(Glamour builds have been dead since, like, 2013, sadly.)

i like the idea of “system” itself, honestly
they wanted you to have pros and cons to choosing traits now, since you can’t even replace higher tier traits for lower ones
along with giving us baseline “more” choices because of more trait points in total, it “should” have given us more options

but it’s just not doing that
there’s still “best in slot” for the majority of it which is what makes it so unfortunate

and, as you said, the removal of some things (glamour traits, also on-clone-death ones were a really cool idea, besides the fact that everyone hated it)
is a bit much

however i disagree with mantras, if you were implying they got hit like glamours
i absolutely loved mantras before and now i’m enjoying them even more, ESPECIALLY with the recharge update, which i still hope is intended

i love the new trait system :-)

previously, mesmers had to sacrifice a few traits, out of which some have become baseline now. didn’t get you regarding the added effects to the utility skills?

the confusion when you enter glamour trait has been removed, but in the old trait system, that was the only glamour trait that changed the way glamours worked i guess? cause everything else was generic, reduce cooldown, glamours last 2 seconds longer etc.

samething with mantras, the mantra trait now is way way better than splitting it into master and grandmaster, and having to take 2 traits to get my mantras better. also toughness which channeling mantras is baseline.

also, because the stats are no longer bound to traits, ur mistaken here.. there are “more customization” options available. while there are fewer traits now, most of them have become baseline or have been merged with other related traits and you also get +2 additional choosable traits compared to the older one.

honestly, the old system was meh.. people choosing an adept trait in grandmaster meaning, there’s something wrong with the choice there :P

They gave explanations for all dropped traits. The clone death trait was favoring a very passive play style: just put clones and disappear. The confusion/blind on glamour was weird because glamours are usually cast on allies and not enemies (null field possible exception).
No I think the new trait system is great and I think there has never been as many viable builds. Sure some are still better, but they will slowly work on balancing it.

Let’s be honest, the reason they did that was:
1) to allow elite specialization, and I don’t think anyone can complain about that
2) to make it easier to balance by restricting partially the choices.

I also think it is a more intuitive system for new players.

No, it’s just you.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

No, it’s just you.

And me. Can’t seem to find a build that suits any of my old playstyles, and the old trait system did give a lot more options to play around with, to make a unique build that wasn’t necessarily the “best”, but fun to play.

Now it seems, more than ever, than it is all about burst damage and textbook builds.

Lux.6490:

Can’t seem to find a build that suits any of my old playstyles

Tell us what you want to do and maybe someone can help you. There’s plenty of stuff to work with unless you were absolutely married to condi clone death or retal.

Lux.6490:

Now it seems, more than ever, than it is all about burst damage and textbook builds.

I’ve been playing progressively more “niche” builds since I started mez last summer and I feel like mostly the game’s actually keeping up with weird preferences fairly well. Traits keep getting better and various mechanics, generally, are easier to use. I’m finding it easier to do acceptable damage without going quite all-in on either shatter or phantasm stuff.

Hasn’t been a better system ever. Most stuff got baseline or fused, only garbage has been removed.

ASP.8093:

Lux.6490:

Can’t seem to find a build that suits any of my old playstyles

Tell us what you want to do and maybe someone can help you. There’s plenty of stuff to work with unless you were absolutely married to condi clone death or retal.

Lux.6490:

Now it seems, more than ever, than it is all about burst damage and textbook builds.

I’ve been playing progressively more “niche” builds since I started mez last summer and I feel like mostly the game’s actually keeping up with weird preferences fairly well. Traits keep getting better and various mechanics, generally, are easier to use. I’m finding it easier to do acceptable damage without going quite all-in on either shatter or phantasm stuff.

Yuh basically. I can trait for Phant damage and choose to add in interrupt or shatter damage or just go personal DPS instead.

Also since Mesmer are very trait reliant, having 3 Lines is sooooooo fantastic. I’ve looked at every other profession and I just keep coming back to Mesmer because I feel like having another line on Mesmer is much, much more significant than on any other profession.

That, and Mimic is fantastic.

Before the patch I was running 6, 6, 0, 2, Halting Strike, CS, harmonious mantras, MoD, mantra heal. No DE. Post patch Im running Dom, Duel, Inspiration with the exact same setup but with all the goodies added. So this change made ALL the right changes for my build and playstyle (Phantrupt).

Based on what you wrote (OP) I’m wondering if you’re even aware how many traits were made baseline, including many of the mantra traits. There is so much diversity in the builds we can make atm, all with an above average to high degree of success, it’s a wonder how you’ve come to the conclusion you have. The best mesmers at the moment are those who are best at interrupt gameplay, which is why so many mesmers out there right now are so easy to roll. That typical straight up burst shatter approach is still as straight forward and predictable as it was pre-changes, thus how much damage it can currently do is irrelevant. It’s still strong and a fantastic options however, and just one of many. Mes can also be point defender now, and has great support builds (or damage/support splits) to choose from. All this discovered and we’ve only been at this for about two weeks.

I don’t know. I think you’re out there in left field.

This new trait system proves how the old one was crippling the mesmer.

I always found 10/2 extra trait points were needed to complete a lot of builds ideas, with that awesome trait so close, yet unreachable.
Now we can see how much better we are when we can put in the same build some of the older Grandmaster traits.

However, I think devs went a little bit too far with the buffs, while some nerfs are difficult to understand. There was no need to put IE baseline, PU is unreasonable OP, power shatter had already enough burst damage, I now find lockdown is more a interrupt spam fest than smart one… In the other hand, MtD nerf hit a lot, poison and burning were changed, but we haven’t seen our damage compensated, or the nerf with Restorative Illusions.

Are there any viable WvW roaming condition builds using staff and clones? Clones seem to just die the second I spawn them now.. So much have changed in a couple of months while I was gone.. still hoping it can be possible to adapt.

I find the new “system” is alright, but ultimately wasn’t needed. They could’ve made stuff baseline and introduced new (near-worthless) traits instead.
Decoupling of the stats is nice in principle, but loss of boon/condi duration without equip to compensate heavily reduces “support” options.
The main problem is the traits filling the new slots. Basically they eliminated the option of slotting “lesser” traits instead of GMs, without fixing the reason said GMs weren’t taken in the first place.
Domination only provides +%dmg in PvE, and doesn’t have a “meta” GM option because shatters still do horrible dps.
Dueling has no condi GM for PvE, instead 2 Adept traits conflict for the same role (PF vs. DD)
Chaos is utter trash for PvE, and PU will bring further nerfs upon us due to whiners.
Inspiration really profited in every way, no complaints here (well, the Healing Prism nerf was stupid, just switch to % of healing received)
Illusions again lacks a dps/phantasm/power/group play option among its GMs.

Okay, a bulk of the complaints stem from the fact that shatter builds and interrupt/lockdown simply don’t work in PvE. Forcing upon us 2-3 junk traits which marginally improve shatters won’t make a difference there.

Photoloss.4817:

I find the new “system” is alright, but ultimately wasn’t needed. They could’ve made stuff baseline and introduced new (near-worthless) traits instead.
Decoupling of the stats is nice in principle, but loss of boon/condi duration without equip to compensate heavily reduces “support” options.
The main problem is the traits filling the new slots. Basically they eliminated the option of slotting “lesser” traits instead of GMs, without fixing the reason said GMs weren’t taken in the first place.
Domination only provides +%dmg in PvE, and doesn’t have a “meta” GM option because shatters still do horrible dps.
Dueling has no condi GM for PvE, instead 2 Adept traits conflict for the same role (PF vs. DD)
Chaos is utter trash for PvE, and PU will bring further nerfs upon us due to whiners.
Inspiration really profited in every way, no complaints here (well, the Healing Prism nerf was stupid, just switch to % of healing received)
Illusions again lacks a dps/phantasm/power/group play option among its GMs.

Okay, a bulk of the complaints stem from the fact that shatter builds and interrupt/lockdown simply don’t work in PvE. Forcing upon us 2-3 junk traits which marginally improve shatters won’t make a difference there.

^ This basically sums up my opinion also and I think it should be its own topic.

Do I like the new system better than the old? yes
Do I think mesmers profited from the change? yes
Did they address the core mechanical problems mesmers suffer? (opinion) No.

Anet “Mesmers arent using their class mechanic? why not?”
Mesmers “umm… blowing up a large portion of our DPS and support doesnt seem like a good idea.”
Anet "Hmmm. What if we just give you no other option? Shatter and interrupt traits galore!!! "

Those shatter and interrupt traits are (very) strong in PvP, but practically worthless in WvW and PvE unless all you do is solo roam and clear trash mobs.

Then the super nerf to our condi builds is a whole topic all its own. I’m just patiently sitting on my ascended rampagers armor waiting to see what they’re going to do.

Photoloss.4817:

Okay, a bulk of the complaints stem from the fact that shatter builds and interrupt/lockdown simply don’t work in PvE. Forcing upon us 2-3 junk traits which marginally improve shatters won’t make a difference there.

I find interrupt/lockdown build unviable in a PvE is a content issue that I hope Anet fix.

Seriously, fix this issue already. Mobs are so uninteresting that most players want to mow through them. Make them more interesting.

I think the new system is wonderful for mesmer, elementalist, and necromancer, but absolutely positively HORRID for the engineer.

It seems like it’s “all about shatters” now because Shattering is now an actual part of the Mesmer itself rather than a specific play style. Mesmers have been conditioned for years now that we basically ignore most of our F1-F4 skills unless we’re specced to make using them worthwhile. This is completely different than how it works for other classes who regularly make use of their special mechanic.

Now, with the Mesmer triggering Shatter effects on himself as well, Shatter has become an inherent part of the Mesmer that everyone should learn to utilize. This has the effect of making people think we’re all “shatter builds” now because they see us shatter and it actually being effective. But that’s like assuming a Necro is a Shroud Necro because he tactically goes into Shroud form to Fear interrupt a stomp or to gain some extra effective health.

This is one of the most insane posts I have ever seen.

The new trait system is so good, this was the best patch ever. It’s so hard to understand how anyone could prefer things pre-patch I ’m not even going to try.

I appreciate the way that ArenaNet condensed specialization for most utility skills into only a couple of traits each. So now you’re getting the maximum use out of that utility with one or two traits, rather than needing to devote your entire build to the concept.

I also prefer the way that taking three distinct lines distinguishes the build, from a flavour standpoint. I feel like the idea or concept that each line represents has become both more obvious and more important.

Dastion.3106:

Now, with the Mesmer triggering Shatter effects on himself as well, Shatter has become an inherent part of the Mesmer that everyone should learn to utilize. This has the effect of making people think we’re all “shatter builds” now because they see us shatter and it actually being effective. But that’s like assuming a Necro is a Shroud Necro because he tactically goes into Shroud form to Fear interrupt a stomp or to gain some extra effective health.

Care to elaborate? Any skilled player already used F3/F4 when the situation called for it, but F1 still sucks for anything other than finishing off a normal mob, and F2 is borderline useless even in a condi build.
In PvP things might be different, but it’s still an innate trade of dps for burst, and if that burst fails to kill…

With baseline IP, you can just do single illusion F1 for good damage.

Photoloss.4817:

Dastion.3106:

Now, with the Mesmer triggering Shatter effects on himself as well, Shatter has become an inherent part of the Mesmer that everyone should learn to utilize. This has the effect of making people think we’re all “shatter builds” now because they see us shatter and it actually being effective. But that’s like assuming a Necro is a Shroud Necro because he tactically goes into Shroud form to Fear interrupt a stomp or to gain some extra effective health.

Care to elaborate? Any skilled player already used F3/F4 when the situation called for it, but F1 still sucks for anything other than finishing off a normal mob, and F2 is borderline useless even in a condi build.
In PvP things might be different, but it’s still an innate trade of dps for burst, and if that burst fails to kill…

You don’t see all the doors that opened with IP baseline. You can F1 or F2 boonstrip anytime you want now. You don’t have to use a crappy nullfield for dredges or monks in fractals anymore. You can remove might and protection so easy now.

Shatter mes is pretty much the best thing you can do right now for trash mobs, since phantasms were terrible in this area anyway. You can even retrait for F3 to be AoE to stack tons of vuln, since not every pt has an egineer to do that for them and eles running lightning storm makes their dps drop.

It also makes sense if no more utility skills are required to start a boss fight with mirror images, sword 3, sword 4 + persona with F3, to stack immediately 25 stacks vuln + you already removed the defiance again for icebow. Or simply wait for icebow freeze.

You can now also use F4 ANYTIME. Pre patch, it was unreliable to use, since your illusions could die anytime. Now you can use it in the cannon phase at mai thrin, now you can absorb horriks shots anytime, now you can even trait for the reflect for a party wide distortion + reflection against some enemies, now you can make your whole party immune to the cliffside fractals endboss first stun, without having to blink to him and blocking a useful utility slot, etc

There are many new possibilites with persona being baseline, but most ppl just keep playing like the old days, like nothing has changed.

If there forcing three trait lines then maybe they should interact more for certain builds.

I’ve been messing around with build and theorycrafting and it seems most things only need two trait lines and the third is just an after thought.

This is probably on purpose though as the third one is the deciding factor between a standard Mes and a Chrono and I suppose other classes follow this same scheme I picked up on for the sake of elite specializations. That’s just gimping everything for the sake of adding in those professions though…

VenerateWarlock.2816:

Anyone else hate the new trait system for the Mesmer?

Well there’s you. I don’t know of many others.

Previously, Mesmers had traits that would boost and add effects to the utility skills. Now, it’s all about shatters.

They’re finally enhancing Mesmer’s basic class mechanic and making it more fluid. I think this is a good thing.

I used a build based around Glamours, where the traits added extra conditions to them. All but one trait for Glamours have been taken away now. This is completely disappointing because of the amount of fun, pride, and work that I had in that build.

While specialized glamour builds in the way of being a condition playstyle have been taken away, the new grand master trait actually makes each of them and Medic’s Feedback very effective in a supportive way. Time Warp as well is much easier to take with these additional benefits.

It’s not only that build, though. The same thing happened for Mantras.

Mantras have been infinitely buffed. They’re easier to use just like glamours.

I don’t really see the point in the new system at all. It’s less challenging, because of the stats no longer being bound to traits. There is less customization, because there are fewer traits, and an absolute limit to 3 trees, instead of being able to split up the points as the player sees fit for their style. Furthermore, one of the things that made GW2 different (not using trees) is gone.

I just wish ANet would actually add instead of taking away.

More customization but less effective builds. If you prefer this type of Mesmer, then I’m glad you’re in the minority. There are a ton more viable builds available. If you’d like me to list some off for you, I can send you a private message.

Mikkel.8427:

Anet “Mesmers arent using their class mechanic? why not?”
Mesmers “umm… blowing up a large portion of our DPS and support doesnt seem like a good idea.”
Anet "Hmmm. What if we just give you no other option? Shatter and interrupt traits galore!!! "

I think a side issue here is that the concept of what clones (and by extension, phantasms as an optional stand-in) are supposed to do/be isn’t defined well.

Originally a lot was supposed to be about misdirection, and in theory this concept could work well. If for example clones were factually indestructible, “wasting” attacks dealt to them by simply never dying from them, then shatter in the context of a zerg would be no problem.
Ofc, the flipside would be that our defense would need to be built around making people attack the clones instead of us, and this causes a long tail of other issues like AI behavior to need fixes.

While I like the idea of the new system, I hate that it broke some of my favorite builds. The mesmer mantra has always been, “good for me, bad for you,” but removing blinds from glamours took away the possibility of using them offensively. That and taking confusion away from the torch phantasm killed one of my condi builds. As it stands, the only way to get high confusion is to use shatters and I HATE shatters. They are clunky and often counter-productive, even with all the baseline additions. In order to use them I have to either hold off on my combat setup to take advantage of Illusionary Persona or dump my entire setup to get the benefit of the shatter. Any perk they give just doesn’t feel like it’s worth the sacrifice. To make matters worse, if I am to have any chance of utilizing confusion as a main damage source, I have to take Dueling and Deceptive Evasion. Before the change, I didn’t need to because the glamours were more than enough.

What really hurt me most of all is my Blood Legion build gone. I can no longer trait Chaotic Dampening and Chaotic Transference at the same time. Because I need, Chaos, Dueling and Illusions for the bulk of my traits, I can no longer take Blurred Inscriptions as my way of clearing conditions because it’s in the Domination line. I’ve also lost 30% condition duration and the lack of it is felt hard. Bleeds seem to do less damage overall too. There was a point where I could 1v2 with this build and I ate thieves for breakfast. Since the change, I have only won 1/4 of my duels.

However, I do see positive changes in my other builds. My main is stronger than ever and has more team support. My bunker is a beast as it takes nearly the entire enemy team to take her down. My glass cannon phantasm spammer has the potential of soloing the Champion Karka guarding the ori node in Southsun. All three of these were made better because of the changes.

I guess what really bothers me is Anet insisting that all mesmers have to shatter and they keep nerfing our condition output. Some of us prefer condition damage and some of us hate shatters. I happen to be in both of those groups.