Guild Wars 2

The title says it all. I really like the playstyle of condition mesmers in spvp/tpvp, and I know they could be very good in WvW, but would they be effective in dungeons? I’d still time warp and whatnot, I just want want to know how viable that’d be before I commit to getting gear, in part because I have to devote more time to my necromancer main for gear.

Thanks

I say it from my own PvE experience, when it comes to high level PvE contents, being a condition mesmer, you can do more to support the group while still dishing out great damage over time. Also, against bosses, confusion is decent since they use skills more often. So my answer is YES.

Now that I have hundreds of hours with crit and condi builds I would say no.

Yes, it will work but it’s less than ideal. I would take a zerker shatter mesmer any day over a condi mesmer in pve content.

Viable yes, ideal not even close. The exception is Rampager gear. Rampager is the most condi I would use in pve.

I see.. this is a tough choice. I already have zerker/valk/cavalier gear, so I could just use that for dungeons and rabid for WvW, but It’ll be a pain getting it all haha.

Pure Condition I would say no, but many of our best support builds double as condition builds. I would look into Chaos’ Support Mesmer Build List and give all those builds a gander and see what ya think.

They were never viable in pve to begin with. Condition mesmer specifically is unpredictable – where necromancer knows exactly how much bleeds he’s gonna get on target, mesmer have to make rough guess.
Confusion is just useless. All your precious 11 stacks of confusion have 50% chance to result in nothing and 50% chance to result in laughable single tick of damage, because mobs don’t have bad habit of spamming skills and confusion don’t last long.
Add to that ball our typical pve condibuild woes like overwriting from power builds and dotlike damage, the picture will look even worse.

Higher level content, yes without a doubt its lower level content where some classes are able to 1hit some mobs where Condition builds for the Mesmer is a bit weak, Throwing points into domination for Power (as well as condition duration) is a wise choice just to help with that little bit of damage rather then relying only on conditions though

@winds.3087 – I have NO issues in PvE using my Condition build, and even have managed to solo some high level events, so i dont think that Mesmer “never viable in PvE” is correct

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

@winds.3087 – I have NO issues in PvE using my Condition build, and even have managed to solo some high level events, so i dont think that Mesmer “never viable in PvE” is correct

The key word is solo. No doubt, condition build will be ok solo. Anything will be ok solo, actually. Even mesmer without traits at all will be. But have you compared your damage as condition spec with damage from power or power\precision mesmer?

hmmmm
im trying a hybrid phantasm build like 10/25/0/25/10 with stats distribution lets say 2/3 pw plus 1/3 cond or maybe the other way round, or 50/50 perc distribution, is viable?
atm i have no time to farm or buy enough items to test it extensivley.
played a little bit with it, but with the old power equip, and tbh first impression wasnt that good. with sw/foc and scepter/torch.

of course with hybrid u always sacrifice something, but question is, is the flexibility/variety u tryin to get any good or viable compared to the sacrified parts.

I play a mesmer with a condition build and I like it. I think that mesmers are the best with conditions, because you are not the only one stacking your conditions. You can have three of your clones to help you do that and yes, while mesmers are unpredictable with conditions on staff with their “Winds of Chaos”, they not apply only bleeding, but can also randomly apply burning and with three clones alive you stack bleeding and apply almost constant burning. This actually slightly outpowers bleeding that necromancers “can apply and control”. A condition mesmer has yet high survivability. You don’t only mislead your enemies, but “Phase Retreat” is a skill, that condition necromancers can only dream of. Confusion is fine in pve too, if you are aware of the correct moment to inflict it, but yeah, mobs don’t attack as often as players do (I personally love to torture warriors and thiefs with confusion <3), thus it is a little bit less effective in pve. Zerker build may deal a little bit more dmg in the same amount of time than a condition build, but a dead zerker will deal no damage at all, if you know what I mean. ^^ (Just a silly joke.) So my answer is yes, condition mesmers are good, but as someone already mentioned, not ideal. Actually, there is no possible ideal build. Condition builds may lack a little bit of damage per second, but then again zerker allows you to complete daily reviver in no time, which you do not want to do during dungeons I believe.

I think you’ve just shown the very problem of condition builds in pve, Caro. You’re not the only one stacking conditions – even power builds sometimes occasionally add their own conditions with no +cond damage and duration, which hampers your own dps. Now imagine a group with two or more condition builds, their conditions will conflict and they both will lose huge chunk of their dps. Until anet decides to either split stacks from different sources or implement some kind of each consecutive stack hitting instant full damage after reaching condition cap, condition builds will be subpar compared to raw damage builds.

(I’d also like to point that after certain threshold of encounter knowledge berserkers stop being dead berserkers and survive sometimes better than full soldiers)

I ran a shatter condi build for almost half a year lol its not worth it compared to power based builds and this will be the case until confusion proc is significantly increased on pve mods which proably will never happen because if in 10 months nothing was done (even tho they know the issue) it will never happen. Stick to power builds, MUCH better for everything

Nuka Cola.8520:

I ran a shatter condi build for almost half a year lol its not worth it compared to power based builds and this will be the case until confusion proc is significantly increased on pve mods which proably will never happen because if in 10 months nothing was done (even tho they know the issue) it will never happen. Stick to power builds, MUCH better for everything

This^ (nuka did you play SMNC?)

The reality is that condi will work but once you play a zerker shatter build you realize just how slow and unreliable condi damage is.

Condi damage isn’t useless in pve, it just isn’t nearly as good as power crit. Thats the reality of it.

Thank you all for your input and advice!

I think I’m just going to stick with my power/crit shatter build for PvE and some WvW, and use the condition build for spvp and WvW (once I can devote the time to getting the gear).

Another reason why I’m not sure if I can use a condimes all the time is that while I’m glad the scepter/torch combo is buffed and has torment now, its still very clunky and hard to use, and the reason why say a necro condi build would be great is that their conditions have a ton of pressure to them. With scepter/torch its very hard to keep this pressure up, mostly because of the autoattack.

For dungeons/fractal you may want to try a phantasm build with traited focus and glamours aoe support. Berserker gear.

Winds.3087:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

@winds.3087 – I have NO issues in PvE using my Condition build, and even have managed to solo some high level events, so i dont think that Mesmer “never viable in PvE” is correct

The key word is solo. No doubt, condition build will be ok solo. Anything will be ok solo, actually. Even mesmer without traits at all will be. But have you compared your damage as condition spec with damage from power or power\precision mesmer?

This game isnt wow, its not all about DPS and Item Level. I am happy with the role i play, i dont feel like i am wasted and feel like i am making a difference (like everyone should) Would fights i have been in gone the other way without me? Maybe not but does that mean i was wasted while being there? of course not.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

This game isnt wow, its not all about DPS and Item Level. I am happy with the role i play, i dont feel like i am wasted and feel like i am making a difference (like everyone should) Would fights i have been in gone the other way without me? Maybe not but does that mean i was wasted while being there? of course not.

Fights would be way more fast if you were precision\power. This is the only difference we need right now, right with these 1 million hp encounters. But hey, no one’s going to tell you how to play this game. Play it whatever you like.

Winds.3087:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

This game isnt wow, its not all about DPS and Item Level. I am happy with the role i play, i dont feel like i am wasted and feel like i am making a difference (like everyone should) Would fights i have been in gone the other way without me? Maybe not but does that mean i was wasted while being there? of course not.

Fights would be way more fast if you were precision\power. This is the only difference we need right now, right with these 1 million hp encounters.

Maybe some people (like me) prefer to have different builds, Plus pure Power/zerker builds isnt the best of the best in WvW (which i do alot) I am happy with my build, and i am happy with the gameplay as it is, sure the class could do with some tweaks – however lets be honest, we are ONLY getting nerfs

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Plus pure Power/zerker builds isnt the best of the best in WvW (which i do alot)

Initial question was about pve. WvW is completely different story with their own builds that work best.

Winds.3087:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Plus pure Power/zerker builds isnt the best of the best in WvW (which i do alot)

Initial question was about pve. WvW is completely different story with their own builds that work best.

I use the same build both in PvP and PvE, i play for FUN and i enjoy my build. I know i wont be the top damage if there was one, but i add to the group in conditions and support with boons so i dont feel that i am too weak or anything

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Winds.3087:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Plus pure Power/zerker builds isnt the best of the best in WvW (which i do alot)

Initial question was about pve. WvW is completely different story with their own builds that work best.

I use the same build both in PvP and PvE, i play for FUN and i enjoy my build. I know i wont be the top damage if there was one, but i add to the group in conditions and support with boons so i dont feel that i am too weak or anything

Why do people always bring up the FUN argument?
Other people also play for FUN too. Part of what I find FUN is teaching newbies in my guild how to run dungeons/fotm and carrying a party is much easier with an optmized build.
The OP asked for an effective build in dungeons. Some people perceive optimal as effective. How FUN is doing crap dmg to burrows and other objects? Furthermore, condition builds can be anywhere from viable to crap depending on if allies are using condition builds. How FUN is it when you negate another party member’s damage? I personally don’t like rolling a dice to see if I will be doing negative DPS in a pug party.

With that in mind, I to am a zerker phanatic but I think most zerker proponents try to ignore conditions too much. Example, a zerker shatter mesmer will have 300 condition dmg. With 25 might stacks, (depends on the group/sigils/shatter combos/banner of strength) a zerker shatter mesmer can hit 1250 condition dmg or 312 confusion per tick. A F2 on CoE p2/3 Alpha for example can hit for 312*8*5=12,700 on 1 of his attacks (it’s technically 5 attacks at once) and then up to two more time since he can attack pretty fast. This of course doesn’t count for the 3,200 burst dmg F2 can still hit. Then your Mindwracks still stack 4 confusion as well. So even when running a zerker build, be mindful of how much your condition dmg does in relation to your burst dmg and try to time your shatters to also max your condition output.

Also, zerker and rampagers are the only glass cannon sets that max dmg. Since Mesmers tend to have an easy time of being a glass cannon and mesmer support is usually stat independent, I agree with Godmoney that rampagers is the closest you should go to a condition build

The point is that not everyone WANTS to go zerker, that isnt the ONLY option for the game and i have done plenty of dungeons in varying builds from support to damage to condition builds.

Zerker is nice if you WANT that, having full damage and next to no defense “effective” is the key word. Just because a zerker can something faster does not mean they are more effective – Sure effective in some ways but not in every way.

I did not expect that my question would lead to a fierce debate. When I have the time and money I’ll get condition gear for WvW, but right now I have other priorities. I only use a few zerker pieces on my power build, with the rest being valkyrie and knights and I still do a ton of DPS and I’m not as fragile.

Thankfully respeccing is cheap so I can run both sets. Does anyone have any advice on how to keep up condition pressure as a say 20/20/30/0/0 built condition spec?

nearlight.3064:

I did not expect that my question would lead to a fierce debate. When I have the time and money I’ll get condition gear for WvW, but right now I have other priorities. I only use a few zerker pieces on my power build, with the rest being valkyrie and knights and I still do a ton of DPS and I’m not as fragile.

Thankfully respeccing is cheap so I can run both sets. Does anyone have any advice on how to keep up condition pressure as a say 20/20/30/0/0 built condition spec?

Scepter/Torch combo is great for condition builds, taking the “on death” traits for clones will help quite a bit with Scepter #1 spawning the clones right on the target which is great

Taking Sigils for on crit chance at Bleeding and such is a good way to go as well, conditions mostly come from staff or the clone deaths the Torch #4 is a good option as well using it, get close to target and use Scepter #3 for the confuse and when the stealth bursts you get burning and blind on those around you as well

The point is that the OP asked for viable in dungeons.

Viable : Capable of working successfully; feasible: “the proposed investment was economically viable”.

Viable can be objectively determined. Fun is subjectively determined. When some states a valid counter argument for conditions (condition builds are ok solo but don’t play well in team settings) and you respond with a subjective argument, (but I find it fun) you aren’t adding anything to the discussion.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

The point is that the OP asked for viable in dungeons.

Viable : Capable of working successfully; feasible: “the proposed investment was economically viable”.

Viable can be objectively determined. Fun is subjectively determined. When some states a valid counter argument for conditions (condition builds are ok solo but don’t play well in team settings) and you respond with a subjective argument, (but I find it fun) you aren’t adding anything to the discussion.

So because they dont work in ONE group means they wont work in any group? Sure if you are all running conditions then of course it wont be much use but how many dungeons have you seen that run any condition builds let alone a full group of them?

Mesmer have plenty of tools that can help in a dungeon no matter the way the damage is delt, Null field, Feedback and such can all be very useful. You can also be offering up combo fields for Chaos Armor as well as other boons.

Mesmer Condition build CAN work in Dungeons, but like unlike most builds it depends on what the rest of the group is.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So because they dont work in ONE group means they wont work in any group? Sure if you are all running conditions then of course it wont be much use but how many dungeons have you seen that run any condition builds let alone a full group of them?
… Mesmer Condition build CAN work in Dungeons, but like unlike most builds it depends on what the rest of the group is.

Zerker mesmer with 2 phantasms (p.duelist, p.zerker, p.warden) can easily stack 8-10 bleeds. More with a clone/3rd phant.
Zerker grenadier tossing #2 (bleed grenade but also high power dmg) can easily stack 8 bleeds
D/D ele get 4-12 stacks.
At least guardians don’t bleed at all.
Warrior/Ranger/Necros auto attacking with common bleed on crit traits can easily get 2-5 (depends on the weapon speed)
I can go on…

I listed zerker but it could be any non condition build. Most common (not condition) builds have enough bonus bleeds that your damage will be getting overwritten. If you got a full condition build in your group, it gets much worst. It’s not that condition builds don’t work in one group. They are weakened in most groups and occasionally they fall flat on their face when it comes to dmg.

Mesmer have plenty of tools that can help in a dungeon no matter the way the damage is delt, Null field, Feedback and such can all be very useful. You can also be offering up combo fields for Chaos Armor as well as other boons.

Listing mesmer utility that functions independent of stats is not a argument for a condition build. A direct damage build can bring those just as easily while also doing consistent damage.

[quote=2387953;DuckDuckBOOM.4097:]

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Zerker mesmer with 2 phantasms (p.duelist, p.zerker, p.warden) can easily stack 8-10 bleeds. More with a clone/3rd phant.

This is actually the specific reason I almost never go 15 points into dueling in my PvE builds. By doing that, I am decreasing the potential damage of any condition build party members that I have, so I stay away from sharper images.

Pyroatheist.9031:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Zerker mesmer with 2 phantasms (p.duelist, p.zerker, p.warden) can easily stack 8-10 bleeds. More with a clone/3rd phant.

This is actually the specific reason I almost never go 15 points into dueling in my PvE builds. By doing that, I am decreasing the potential damage of any condition build party members that I have, so I stay away from sharper images.

You are too kind =)

…and what if your group doesnt have anyone that really applies conditions? as for Mesmer Condition builds, the only way of getting Bleeds i have are RNG or if you trait for it so not really an issue, we have Torment (only 2 other classes have iirc) Confusion stacks and plenty of other options

Again, its more based on the GROUP rather then the build you are running as to determine if you are going to be more viable, useful. Plus not all condition build ONLY have condition as the damage, Sure the damage wont be the highest but i know quite a few that go into Power tree as well. Plus most Condition Mesmers use Staff as a weapon and I-Mage just loves conditions, doesnt matter who applied them.

Just as an example of how even if Condition build it doesnt make the class un-viable or anything, they still have plenty of options and abilities in a dungeon that can help. Only a Mesmer can bring Feedback for example so unless you are running with other Mesmers that use that skill, i dont quite see your point.

Again, this is more down to how the GROUP is rather then how the build is. Plus, if you go full Zerker means nothing if you are dead. My build might be condition but it can still take some damage as well so sure might not do the same damage but in some situations more defensive traits/tree line options are better then full out attack.

Zerker grenadier, 8 bleeds? Wut? No, 20 bleeds. What we need to think of are bosses. Which, tentively, we could say is what matters most, and with bosses the -50% duration means we rarely (ever?) reach the bleed cap in a 5 man. That grenadier suddenly only manages 10 bleeds and a zerker mesmer only about 5 or less.

I love condition damage, it’s just, well, we’re not necros. Necros, for example, get Epidemic. They can lay conditions and AoE, even if 15 seconds is not that short to be spamming. What does a mesmer who uses conditions does? Throw a 35 CD Chaos Storm and…. that’s it? Well, perhaps a scepter’s confusion beam since it goes through people.

So if we want to AoE, really AoE and not just tag, we have nothing. Chaos Storm will only tag and our obligatory GS for AoE will tickle the mobs since we have no power nor crit damage.

Objects? We might as well be hitting an adamantium wall with a wooden baseball bat. Again we resort to the GS to beat on a burrow or break free from a cage in the Colossus fractal.

The iWarlock hits hard, but again he uses power and crit damage, not condition damage. Why do we even have a hard hitting direct power/crit phantasm in the stuff? I ‘unno. The pistol’s iDuelist seems much smarter since it hits a number of times and places many bleeds at once.

So at this point if we want to break objects we need the GS, if we want the AoE we need the GS, which means we can use Rampager gear and make good use of both weapons. We are going to be neither fish nor fowl though, since even in full berserker a staff’s auto attack crits for around 700 (decent, if we traited for the extra bounce so 1.4k if both bounces crit and then we have either bleed or burn to add damage (or Vulnerability, but we do not speak of the bright design idea of adding Vulnerability to the staff’s bounce) and around 400-500 in Rampager and on the other hand Rampager has low condition so our ticks will be poor.

I love condition damage, not so much because of the dots, but because of the playstyle change. We ignore our 10-15 second long phantasms and focus on our quickly generated clones. Less CD watching, less growling at having them wiped. We can keep on churning clones and perpetually have three out. With some boon duration we can have 7-8 Might and perpetual Fury to whomever is closest, though again, if those 7-8 Might + perpetual Fury came to us instead of a random meleer, we could at least share them to the whole party.

Kanto.1659:

I love condition damage, not so much because of the dots, but because of the playstyle change. We ignore our 10-15 second long phantasms and focus on our quickly generated clones. Less CD watching, less growling at having them wiped. We can keep on churning clones and perpetually have three out. With some boon duration we can have 7-8 Might and perpetual Fury to whomever is closest, though again, if those 7-8 Might + perpetual Fury came to us instead of a random meleer, we could at least share them to the whole party.

Totally agree, with zerker builds it just feels like we arent doing anything thakittens all down to the phantasm which is fine for some, Condition builds (to me at least) are more engaging, more fun and make it seem like i did MORE rather then just summon a phantom to do all the damage for me while i stand around doing nothing.

I sure i agree about other aspects as well such as the fact we arent the best condition class, that of course goes to the Necro but i do wish we had a bit more when it comes to conditions not so much the damage just more AoE possibilities with it

Changing Choas Storm would be nice, like giving it a couple of traits – first to decide if you want ONLY boons or ONLY Conditions the next to buff it up damage (or buffing boon) wise

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

…and what if your group doesnt have anyone that really applies conditions? as for Mesmer Condition builds, the only way of getting Bleeds i have are RNG or if you trait for it so not really an issue, we have Torment (only 2 other classes have iirc) Confusion stacks …

and what if your enemies don’t attack that fast.

Plus not all condition build ONLY have condition as the damage, Sure the damage wont be the highest but i know quite a few that go into Power tree as well. Plus most Condition Mesmers use Staff as a weapon and I-Mage just loves conditions, doesnt matter who applied them.

Those two “what ifs” are why I don’t think you should spec for conditions. As I have stated in my previous post, confusion can be potentially really nice in some situations but what if… those situations are rather rare. And saying what if ppl don’t run lots of bleeds is not a good argument for you. I listed some very common traits/builds/skills and only a guardian is a safe bet with not bringing bleeds.
Power based builds NEVER have those what ifs because power builds don’t cancel each other out. If fact, stacking vulnerability makes power builds synergize. That p’warlock… would be hitting even harder in a power build. How is this an argument in your favor?

Just as an example of how even if Condition build it doesnt make the class un-viable or anything, they still have plenty of options and abilities in a dungeon that can help. Only a Mesmer can bring Feedback for example so unless you are running with other Mesmers that use that skill, i dont quite see your point…
Plus, if you go full Zerker means nothing if you are dead. My build might be condition but it can still take some damage as well so sure might not do the same damage but in some situations more defensive traits/tree line options are better then full out attack.

It’s not that only a mesmer can bring feed back (and multiple classes have projectile reflects) it’s a matter of which mesmer would you prefer. A power mesmer with feed back or a condition mesmer with feed back?

As for zerker, just because you cant survive as full zerker doesn’t mean other people cant. If necessary, a mesmer with some cavalier/knights/pvt/zerker mix will take just as many hits as you while also not worrying about those what ifs.

The question was “Are condition mesmers viable for PvE?” – The Answer is YES. Pretty much that simple, Are they are strong as some other builds? of course not they arent build for POWER, they are built differently and played differently.

I have played enough of the dungeons and high level content as both a Necro and Mesmer condition build and in none of it have i thought kitten i should go change to a Zerker spec.

The MOST important thing to remember – play a build you find fun, if thats zerker thats fine, if its Condition thats fine as well.

Kanto.1659:

Zerker grenadier, 8 bleeds? Wut? No, 20 bleeds. What we need to think of are bosses. Which, tentively, we could say is what matters most, and with bosses the -50% duration means we rarely (ever?) reach the bleed cap in a 5 man. That grenadier suddenly only manages 10 bleeds and a zerker mesmer only about 5 or less.

Are you talking about
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

Gains defiant when targeted by crowd control skills. Blind is 10% effective. Weakness and vulnerability last 50% less time.

My zerker grenadier is specced to sometimes have 100% condition duration (I’m slightly hybrid dmg and go rampagers in wvw) Can usually keep 20 stacks of vulerability on a boss and can spike it to 25 with grenade barrage. I’m pretty sure bleed stacks aren’t affected by unshakable. 3 bleeds that last 24 seconds every 5 seconds does lead to more than 8 bleeds. This of course doesn’t count for 30% chance of 6 second bleeds on crits and I don’t even bring shrapnel for 15% chance of 24 sec bleeds on all attacks. So yeah, the 8 stacks… I felt like low balling it since most zerker grenades don’t run 100% condition duration or shrapnel. Then of course there is the constant aoe poison and aoe burning.

This is the other reason I don’t think it’s worth it to go conditions on mesmer. Other classes just do it better.

If bleeds/all conditions lasted 50% on bosses…. how is thinking about bosses a good thing. That just makes condition builds even worst because power builds don’t do half dmg to bosses for no reason.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The MOST important thing to remember – play a build you find fun, if thats zerker thats fine, if its Condition thats fine as well.

I 100% agree with this.

The question was “Are condition mesmers viable for PvE?” – The Answer is YES. Pretty much that simple, Are they are strong as some other builds? of course not they arent build for POWER, they are built differently and played differently.

I have played enough of the dungeons and high level content as both a Necro and Mesmer condition build and in none of it have i thought kitten i should go change to a Zerker spec.

I have a problem with this. The question was if it’s viable in dungeons. It is not viable 100% of the time. Sometimes it work well… sometimes it’s kitten.

I have 1 of each proffession. I have condition specs and zeker specs and tank specs. My mesmer has ran all of these and zerker or power isn’t rendered useless depending on your group.

hi @ArmageddonAsh the op question was is condition build viable for pve the answer in short is no,full condition build isn`t viable for any proffession not only mesmers in pve.
players know it and anet knows it no point for this argument.
playable? yes it is,fun? sure why not,viable?nope!.
wanna know why? here have a read:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Comfirmed-Nothing-being-done-re-conditions/first

@OP:
Your question was simple “Is condition build viable in PvE?”, in other words, “Can you succeed with a condition build in PvE?”.
And my answer was also simple as YES.

Now further along this thread people extended the question into “Is condition build optimal in PvE?” = “Is condition build the best in PvE?”
This is rather a complicated question because there are a lot of factors to consider. Not just the damage output.

Most people here argue that condition build is not viable (or not optimal rather) because of the fact the conditions get overwritten when you go over stack cap. I think this is a very weak argument. In PvE, you don’t compete with your team to out-DPS others, you work together to bring down tough bosses. So if condition stacks get capped, it usually mean the team’s overall DPS is good enough and you might want to consider doing something else to support the team, being condition mesmer. As for power-based build, ofc you can contribute even more DPS with direct dmg attacks.

So OP, it’s really up to your playstyle to decide which build is more suitable, that you can maximise its potential with it. Do you play the main DPS role or support in your team?

Another factor is the group setting. Do you play with organised and well-equipped group? If so, then more DPS is most welcome since other group members might already have your back covered. Thus the choice is power-based build.

I choose condition build because firstly, I like to play support, watch others back so to speak. Secondly, I usually play in PUGs and help less experienced players to do dungeons, meaning I don’t have the luxury of organised group and they are usually poorly-equipped. And if half of your team is downed, you can be sure that you’re the main DPS person at the same time running around reviving others. Conditions are good in the sense that you still deal dmg even if you’re not attacking, so you have the flexibility to perform other tasks like buffing, debuffing, reviving, etc.

TL;DR: If you only judge a build based on its damage output, condition build for mesmer is bad. However, consider other factors like group settings, team support, choosing a condition build means you have the flexibility to support and carry your team through tough fights more often.

Hope my reply gives you a better view and comparison between the two paths that you want to choose.
:)

I think Keenlam’s post summed things up rather nicely.

First, there is a big difference between “viable” and “optimal.” Yes, a condition build will be viable. I use my condition build to run high-level fractals and dungeons all the time in addition to WvW (though with some tweaks in the traits/weapons for PvE). I’ve never felt as if I was a burden to my party. I’m capable of keeping 10+ burns up and permanent bleeding, can share might/fury/protection/regeneration/vigor with my party on a regular basis, and have enough defenses (both active and passive) that allow me to res downed players far more reliably than my glass-cannon teammates. Given all that, I think that condition builds are perfectly viable in PvE.

However, it does have its drawbacks. As others have stated, if you have more than two people applying bleeds and hit the cap, or you have a guardian/ele constantly applying burns, you’re going to see a DPS decrease due to “condition competition” on the target. Also, you will be doing less damage and the damage that you do inflict has a little bit of a ramp-up time. If you’re, say, farming CoF path 1 where all that matters is DPS, then yes, your build will be suboptimal there. However, if you are doing more challenging content that requires survivability and team support in addition to DPS, then I’d argue that a condition mesmer can hold his own.

@Keenlam and Palu: I’m forced to disagree entirely. Condition builds for mesmers are forced to take traits that power builds are not. This diminishes the potential for support. My PvE phantasm build (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-PvE-Supporting-Phantasm-Build/first) offers more support options than any condition build can because of the flexibility it has with weaponsets, utilities, and trait options.

I have tried condition builds in PvE. They are ok. They work. Unfortunately, they just aren’t great. Much of your condition application is subject to RNG (debilitating dissipation), and so this leads to extremely unreliable damage. Sometimes you can achieve high stacks, sometimes you can’t, and you have no control over it. Additionally it has less support options than a normal power phantasm build, and mesmers are brought into dungeons significantly because of the support and utility they can provide. Overall, while it is possible to run one, it is simply and objectively worse.

Condition Mesmers are not significantly worse than Power Mesmers against Veteran and stronger mobs, i.e. mobs that take some time to kill. This means that in dungeons, Condition Mesmers generally perform quite well.

Against trash mobs however Condition Mesmers are significantly worse DPS-wise compared to Power Mesmers, especially when fighting groups of trash mobs. The main reason for this is because for a Condition Mesmer to achieve its maximum DPS it must conjure three Staff Clones against the target, and with the rate at which trash mobs die you can’t do that for every trash mob. Coupled with the ramping-up nature of condition damage (and also Might stacks), fighting trash mobs as a Condition Mesmer is an inefficient affair.

The “conditions getting overwritten by other people’s conditions” thing is never a problem when it matters. In a small group (e.g. a dungeon group) there’s rarely enough condition damage builds for the cap to kick in, and conditions applied by non-condition damage builds won’t overwrite yours because presumably your conditions do more damage; and a stack that does more damage take precedence over those that do less.

Are Condition Mesmers viable for PvE? Yes. Is it a good idea to run a Condition Mesmer over a Power Mesmer in PvE? No. But if you like the playstyle of a Condition Mesmer (like I do) you won’t be missing out on content or feeling like you’re not pulling your weight.

@Pyro:
While I admire your contribution to the community and acknowledge you as one of the seniors here in terms to knowledge and expertise, I would go on to say that it is very biased of you to say “I’m forced to disagree entirely” (with my reply to OP).
My reply was aimed to sum up everyone’s opinions (including mine) and present it in a least biased way so OP can make his/her informed decision, since it sounds like a big deal to him/her.
Its not like “I play condition, its great go for it.” “No, power build has much more dmg, you kill mobs faster, condition build sucks.”
So if you read my post carefully, you see I present my opinions with agreement to some extent to yours. Thus by saying you disagree entirely with my reply, does that mean you saying condition build would out-DPS power build? Obviously not.
So here’s my counter:
- Condition builds are forced to take traits that power builds are not: well, you take traits to define your condition build. Same goes with Shatter, Phantasm builds. Otherwise, it wouldn’t call Condition build, would it?
- The build you posted is a support build, of course it will provide more support than a pure condition build. Otherwise, why would you call it support in the first place?
- About RNG and unreliable damage, I made it quite clear that yes power build usually out-DPS condition build. This I totally agree with. But conditions are used to do more than just dealing damage (not all conditions are damage-dealing) and since mobs don’t cleanse conditions, they act as great group support. For example, crippling, immobile, and chilling provide great crowd/movement control. Vulnerability debuffs, etc. Again, your argument is still very wrapped up in the all-about-DPS thinking.
- You keep saying that power build has more potential for support than condition build, but gave no vivid example of what power build can do that condition build cannot. And I’m sure that both OP and me would be very keen to be enlightened with such examples.

Fully leveled condi mesmers are very viable I think. For example when I do my rotation right with good timing -still getting used to my new build- I am able to take down greatsword phantasm high dps mesmers down in WvW duels in technically open field -to their advantage. If it goes like this in a 1v1 duel against a very high dps build (said build’s user hit 5-6k with iBerserker) then it should be viable in pve as well in terms of damage and survivability, I got 1800 toughness for example so I can survive many hits, PU even makes it easier. I just sit and watch my staff clones burn and bleed the hell out of the mobs.

anet should rework the condition mechanics.
if they keep the 25 stack limit, they should either make them additive in damage or timelength and not overwrite stronger condition with weaker ones.

imo they should even distribute condition a bit straighter to professions and take away all randomness from applying them.

it makes no sense as a profession to have conditions like a bit of fire, a bit of poison, dumped down confusion or massive amounts of weak bleeds and give em just a new one called torment (thinking evrythings fine now…), when the whole package seems to be out of sync.
maybe condmesmer is viable, but all in all it looks messy and ugly to me, not logic pure and straight, like shatter or phantasm builds.

mesmer is a great unique profession, worth enough not being dumped down to another boring damage dealing john doe class only

keenlam.4753:

But conditions are used to do more than just dealing damage (not all conditions are damage-dealing) and since mobs don’t cleanse conditions, they act as great group support. For example, crippling, immobile, and chilling provide great crowd/movement control. Vulnerability debuffs, etc. Again, your argument is still very wrapped up in the all-about-DPS thinking.

Yeah, well, the thing is, if players want trashpacks crippled, immobilized, chilled(what for anyway, dps them asap and you don’t need any of those except 2-3 encounters in the whole game), they would bring necromancer or elementalist who would do the job significantly better and more importantly – reliable. If we want vulnerability, better call that warrior and perhaps engineer to do the job. Weakness? Necro department again. Blind? While it’s fairly ok, dredge are immune to it and that’s better be left to thief or guardian anyway. One in which mesmers excel(engineers giggle) – confusion is mostly useless in pve. Poison too, while it’s ok adding on cm thugs and their buddies, everywhere else it’s just another low damage condition – perhaps I missed something that heals itself, but that doesn’t really change anything.
Apart from immobilize and perhaps cripple, mesmer’s condition support has nothing to offer, apart from 33.3% chance of getting 3 stacks of vulnerability on 50% chance that monster will target your clone and destroy it.
But even berserker build can do immobilize and cripple, so why bother building on condition?

@Winds:
I’m just saying that being a condition mesmer, you have all the tools available to carry your group instead of relying on other professions/team members. So you can fill in any role.
By your saying, every time someone wants to do dungeon with me, I would have to check the team:
- Do we have warrior to get vulnerability? – Yes, tick
- Do we have thief to blind? – Yes, tick
- Do we have necro to … No
Well, tough luck can’t do this dungeon.

So Winds, I agree with you that in a perfect team setup, zerker build outshines.
But I’ve been in situations where we had to 3-man a dungeon (me and 1 necro and 1 guardian) and I helped the team got through it with my condition build.

As for the conditions are being unreliable, well, that depends on how you build and play.

keenlam.4753:

@Winds:
I’m just saying that being a condition mesmer, you have all the tools available to carry your group instead of relying on other professions/team members. So you can fill in any role.

As full berserker shatter mesmer, I have all tools available to carry and don’t really rely on my group comp. In fact, most of our support comes from our utility and weapon skills – traits no doubt play big part in that, but only enhance existing that much, which means even pure glass cannon can support your party effectively, while still dealing quite a chunk of damage. This is true strength of mesmer – we don’t really need traiting for support while most of our support won’t be even necessary in balanced group.

By your saying, every time someone wants to do dungeon with me, I would have to check the team:
- Do we have warrior to get vulnerability? – Yes, tick
- Do we have thief to blind? – Yes, tick
- Do we have necro to … No
Well, tough luck can’t do this dungeon.

I never said that. You can go in with 5 condition ranger party and still do all dungeons. But how long it will take and how hard will it be compared to trinity composition? This is not the flaw of condition builds, but pve encounter design intertwining with class balance which in turn is affected by pvp balance that has no connection to pve at all – result is some classes like rangers, engineers and necromancer condispecs fall out of this happyland, because they perform their duties worse compared to trinity in any aspect and players like all human beings tend to stick with easier and faster routes.

But I’ve been in situations where we had to 3-man a dungeon (me and 1 necro and 1 guardian) and I helped the team got through it with my condition build.

Why would you do that anyway, 3-manning dungeons that were meant to be done 5-man.

I mean all they’d need is an ability on enemies “Superior Armour”, which gives them tons of toughness.

That reduces direct damage horribly even with Vulnerability stacked, while conditions deal full damage.

And there’d be a better reason to bring more and more diverse conditions to dungeons.

keenlam.4753:

So Winds, I agree with you that in a perfect team setup, zerker build outshines.
But I’ve been in situations where we had to 3-man a dungeon (me and 1 necro and 1 guardian) and I helped the team got through it with my condition build.

…and when I get bored while waiting for my team for a fotm 18 or 28, I grab my zerker warrior or mesmer and solo the underwater fractal. Although, at least 1 or 2 teammates from my guild show up by the time I reach the boss. I could probably also pull that off with my zerker engineer and a few more of my alts. The idea that you 3 manned a dungeon is not a sign that your build was what carried your team. In fact I do this for most dungeons. AC exp, my ele clears the entire spider queen room regardless of who shows up in time from my guild. We only grab a pug if no one else wants to come for kholer/burrows. TA exp, I solo/duo the first boss. I rarely wait for a full team before I start clearing mobs.

There are cof braziers/dredge panels etc. that require warm bodies.
There are a few dps checks like burrows in ac and simon (at least the old version of simon) and the vet grawl sacrificers.
There is the rest… and the rest for the most part, can be soloed/ done without a full team.
So besides those first two points, any build is “viable” according to your definition of viable because any build can fill the extra 4 “meat bag” slots on a team. It’s sort of inherent to how the game is designed. I guess to the rest of us, viable is not spending 2-4 times as long in a dungeon than necessary. This doesn’t even require a full guard/mes/3warrior trinity. It doesn’t require full glass cannon. But again, all of my alts that are specced for power, easily stack 5-15 bleeds. That’s just 1 person. Then you got 3 more teammates who will be adding more. It is common occurrence for me to see max bleed stacks in a group with no condition specs. That means you will be competing with your team for dps. Power doesn’t compete with/negate your team.

Torment is a nice addition that helps a lot in these situations but I don’t think it’s enough. Those clone death traits? run them with a power build/knights armor and you will probably be doing the same amount of dmg or maybe more. For clone death, you should summon two phantasms then keep spamming a clone with the scepter? That way the second you summon a new clone, the old clone dies. (Minor thing: phantasms in gw1 where mesmer condition dmg and I sorta still consider them sustain DOTs )