Guild Wars 2

The bug preventing staff clones from befitting from “illusionary elasticity” has been here since beta and is costing staff users about 50%+ of their condition application if they chose to use this trait. This bug becomes even worse if you take into consideration how it should work for the phantasmal disenchanter and mage. This is probably one of the worse bugs this class has yet I never see it being addressed as much as it should be by the player base or ever get a dev comment.

I’m pretty sure everyone agrees this should be fixed.

Hopefully they will have more incentive now that Confusion is ‘in line’ for WvW. Before I could see a solid argument against focusing on fixing it being that we can do plenty with just Confusion for condition-based builds, but now that argument is more or less moot.

Also, changing the fury on Phantom] trait to [fury on illusions] along with Illusionary Elasticity fix would instantly make a pure staff build viable.

With 20% crit chance on clones = 20% more bleed from clones.

These changes would make pure staff possibly on par with Phantom and Shatter builds. And in PvE, a staff cond. build would be able to compete with Necro cond builds.

Simply fixing Illusionary Elasticity should be enough now that the condition duration bug has been properly fixed.

Either way, I’d be much happier if they fixed all of the various bugs before approaching any more buffs/nerfs outside of the serious ones, as they are claiming to be doing this month. That would include fixing this, fixing Staff clones base bleeding duration being only 5 seconds, fixing the bounce logic for iMage, and fixing the number of hits that iBerzerker consistently gets in.

There are some other minor ones, but those are all fairly major and fixing all of them would be a good start towards being able to properly balance around a working skillset.

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

It’s not really a drastic change if they do “fix” this (assuming it is a bug): Staff Clones are about 33% of a condition Mesmer’s DPS, so this would add another 33% more. With the state of Mesmer condition damage (ineffective against any profession that has half-decent condition cleansing) it would be a welcome buff.

Kanto.1659:

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

Actually, mesmers can maintain 20+ bleed currently with enough precision. But more would be better.

Phira.3970:

Kanto.1659:

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

Actually, mesmers can maintain 20+ bleed currently with enough precision. But more would be better.

If you’re very lucky with WoC, maintain loads of Duelists, and/or sacrifice CondDmg for Precision perhaps. Exceptional/sub-optimal builds aside you won’t be able to maintain that many Bleeding stacks.

You can also do an incredibly gimmicky clone death build that can get to the bleed cap with Debilitating Dissipation, Deceptive Evasion, and Mirror Images/Decoy.

Still, pretty much every build that stacks that many bleeds is generally pretty bad. Illusionary Elasticity would help that, and condition builds really do need the help right now.

Embolism.8106:

Phira.3970:

Kanto.1659:

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

Actually, mesmers can maintain 20+ bleed currently with enough precision. But more would be better.

If you’re very lucky with WoC, maintain loads of Duelists, and/or sacrifice CondDmg for Precision perhaps. Exceptional/sub-optimal builds aside you won’t be able to maintain that many Bleeding stacks.

3 greatsword clones with high precision and franken rune-ing bleed duration can maintain between 18-21 bleeds until they break, adding duelist can make it burst up to 25 if you time it right.

Esorono.1039:

Embolism.8106:

Phira.3970:

Kanto.1659:

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

Actually, mesmers can maintain 20+ bleed currently with enough precision. But more would be better.

If you’re very lucky with WoC, maintain loads of Duelists, and/or sacrifice CondDmg for Precision perhaps. Exceptional/sub-optimal builds aside you won’t be able to maintain that many Bleeding stacks.

3 greatsword clones with high precision and franken rune-ing bleed duration can maintain between 18-21 bleeds until they break, adding duelist can make it burst up to 25 if you time it right.

I never played pve but in spvp/tpvp there is no franken runes or buffs that can make this bug feel insignificant at the moment.

Also from my testing in spvp max stacking is more or less around 16 when using rabid amulet and precision gear along with 30 points in dueling for crit chance. Also that level of stacking is only in a perfect world where we can maintain 3 greatsword clones on a single target that never cleanses conditions or dodges. Also take into consideration how we most likely cant keep up the amount of clones needed to maintain these stacks without deceptive evasion. With the current deceptive evasion we cant chose what our dodge roll clones will attack so imagine having one to two clones attacking a random AI in all your fights.

Hiki.9310:

Esorono.1039:

Embolism.8106:

Phira.3970:

Kanto.1659:

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

Actually, mesmers can maintain 20+ bleed currently with enough precision. But more would be better.

If you’re very lucky with WoC, maintain loads of Duelists, and/or sacrifice CondDmg for Precision perhaps. Exceptional/sub-optimal builds aside you won’t be able to maintain that many Bleeding stacks.

3 greatsword clones with high precision and franken rune-ing bleed duration can maintain between 18-21 bleeds until they break, adding duelist can make it burst up to 25 if you time it right.

I never played pve but in spvp/tpvp there is no franken runes or buffs that can make this bug feel insignificant at the moment.

That is true, it’s one of the main reasons why I never take that trait. It’s just so ‘meh’ compared to other traits I could use since it doesn’t affect clones.

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

Nuka Cola.8520:

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

The trident clones are working with the trait so they have their extra bounce its just all of our land illusions that are bugged with it.

Hiki.9310:

Nuka Cola.8520:

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

The trident clones are working with the trait so they have their extra bounce its just all of our land illusions that are bugged with it.

omg what a noob i had no idea-.- well if its working underwater no1 can say the trait works as intended on land cuz i’ve heard that a lot.

Siren’s Call ends on an enemy bounce, so Illusionary Elasticity only adds an ally bounce. In other words, Illusionary Elasticity doesn’t affect Siren’s call much. This is the case for all bouncing attacks able to bounce to allies except Winds of Chaos, which ends on an ally bounce.

That may be justification for not making Illusionary Elasticity affect Staff Clones, maybe.

that would be stupid if was the case. You take a trait that requires 20 points, use a bouncing attack and the trait says no i ain’t no bouncing… Thing is broken.

Nuka Cola.8520:

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

If they added in the extra bounce it would be fine for them to leave it. I doubt they’ll ever remove it though tbh… it has PvE applications/benefits for it to remain on as part of the possibilities… as well as in power based builds.

Aberrant.6749:

Nuka Cola.8520:

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

If they added in the extra bounce it would be fine for them to leave it. I doubt they’ll ever remove it though tbh… it has PvE applications/benefits for it to remain on as part of the possibilities… as well as in power based builds.

1stack of vulnerability has no use anywhere in the game… You get 20-25 stacks from Illusion Vulnerability/Dazzling/Diversion in couple of seconds and 1 stack has uses in pve lol. Mez has no access to poison other than on Chaos Storm which i won’t even call that access to poison so vulnerability could be replaced by it (2sec of poison would be fair).
Hell even 1sec of poison would be waaaaaaay better than crappy 1stack of vulnerability.

Well, we can hope it will be fixed soon … they finally fixed condition duration so that it affects your illusions.

I’m more interested in having Clone WoC Bleeding duration fixed first, as that is very obviously a bug.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Aberrant.6749:

Nuka Cola.8520:

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

If they added in the extra bounce it would be fine for them to leave it. I doubt they’ll ever remove it though tbh… it has PvE applications/benefits for it to remain on as part of the possibilities… as well as in power based builds.

1stack of vulnerability has no use anywhere in the game… You get 20-25 stacks from Illusion Vulnerability/Dazzling/Diversion in couple of seconds and 1 stack has uses in pve lol. Mez has no access to poison other than on Chaos Storm which i won’t even call that access to poison so vulnerability could be replaced by it (2sec of poison would be fair).
Hell even 1sec of poison would be waaaaaaay better than crappy 1stack of vulnerability.

I agree that the vulnerability is out of place on the auto-attacks. It makes the attacks even more RNG as they have a chance to do drastically less damage that is not compensated by a few seconds of +1% dmg. RNG reduces the impact of skill on gameplay, so I dislike this.

I’m not sure about adding poison, as that has additional affects aside from just condition damage. I would be happier if the auto-attacks just had a chance to bleed or burn.

Vulnerability kind of makes sense on Winds of Chaos as the Staff is not just a condition damage weapon, it is also a support weapon; and while Vulnerability is not very helpful for the Staff it is helpful for allies that focus on direct damage.

It would be nice if Vulnerability (and all other % damage modifications) affects condition damage however.

I don’t think that makes up for the loss of so much dps each time you inflict 1 stack of low duration vulnerability. There are better ways to support.

The “support” argument also loses water when you talk about running solo.

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t think that makes up for the loss of so much dps each time you inflict 1 stack of low duration vulnerability. There are better ways to support.

The “support” argument also loses water when you talk about running solo.

I believe that the vulnerability is there so that the skill would remain balanced if the bounce trait was working. Conditions would stack too fast if the vulnerability was not there but with the current bug its just a hindrance for pure condition builds.

Skills really shouldn’t be balanced by traits though, and if Illusionary Elasticity worked with Clones it’s basically 2x DPS. If it were up to me I’d make WoC bounce twice by default (so IE only adds an ally bounce) and balance it around that.

Embolism.8106:

Skills really shouldn’t be balanced by traits though, and if Illusionary Elasticity worked with Clones it’s basically 2x DPS.

Clones and DPS don’t belong in the same sentence wherein clones denote actual DPS gain.

Sebrent.3625:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Aberrant.6749:

Nuka Cola.8520:

that would be soooooo juicy on trident but i’d preferred if they removed vulnerability on WoC first.

If they added in the extra bounce it would be fine for them to leave it. I doubt they’ll ever remove it though tbh… it has PvE applications/benefits for it to remain on as part of the possibilities… as well as in power based builds.

1stack of vulnerability has no use anywhere in the game… You get 20-25 stacks from Illusion Vulnerability/Dazzling/Diversion in couple of seconds and 1 stack has uses in pve lol. Mez has no access to poison other than on Chaos Storm which i won’t even call that access to poison so vulnerability could be replaced by it (2sec of poison would be fair).
Hell even 1sec of poison would be waaaaaaay better than crappy 1stack of vulnerability.

I agree that the vulnerability is out of place on the auto-attacks. It makes the attacks even more RNG as they have a chance to do drastically less damage that is not compensated by a few seconds of +1% dmg. RNG reduces the impact of skill on gameplay, so I dislike this.

I’m not sure about adding poison, as that has additional affects aside from just condition damage. I would be happier if the auto-attacks just had a chance to bleed or burn.

that would be perfectly fine as well. But if they add Pistol MH it better have some spammable poison cuz its what i miss on mez the most.

Hiki.9310:

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t think that makes up for the loss of so much dps each time you inflict 1 stack of low duration vulnerability. There are better ways to support.

The “support” argument also loses water when you talk about running solo.

I believe that the vulnerability is there so that the skill would remain balanced if the bounce trait was working. Conditions would stack too fast if the vulnerability was not there but with the current bug its just a hindrance for pure condition builds.

That’s why staff projectiles are so slow. Slow kitten projectiles and RNG with vulnerability is too much.

Velimere.7685:

Embolism.8106:

Skills really shouldn’t be balanced by traits though, and if Illusionary Elasticity worked with Clones it’s basically 2x DPS.

Clones and DPS don’t belong in the same sentence wherein clones denote actual DPS gain.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

Three Staff Clones is about half your DPS as a condition Mesmer. Illusionary Elasticity currently only affects you, so it increases your DPS by 50%. If it worked with Clones too then your DPS is increased by 100%.

to the OP; I like the suggestions, but lets be clear…the only bug here is on illusionary elasticity, and it’s probably more of a tooltip bug than a real bug. The other stuff, making clones have frenzy…this is a nice idea in theory, but can easily get overpowered, asking for both at once, you are essentially asking for twice or three times the bleeding damage.

you also say that this would make staff worth using…it already is worth using, and as noted in several other threads, is many people’s favorite weapon already. As much as I’d like to see those sorts of changes, I’m not going to kid myself and say that I’m underpowered now, when I really don’t feel that way, when playing. Staff is a mix of defense and offense, and an all around very solid weapon. There should not be an automatic assumption that it can outdamage a greatsword power build, since gs is a purely offensive weapon, and staff has some great defense built in as well.

I think the other point you were trying to make is that a condition build is not viable for mesmer, and this would make it so. I’ll have to disagree there too…while certainly less optimal as a damage dealing build, conditions are still viable.

bobross.5034:

to the OP; I like the suggestions, but lets be clear…the only bug here is on illusionary elasticity, and it’s probably more of a tooltip bug than a real bug. The other stuff, making clones have frenzy…this is a nice idea in theory, but can easily get overpowered, asking for both at once, you are essentially asking for twice or three times the bleeding damage.

you also say that this would make staff worth using…it already is worth using, and as noted in several other threads, is many people’s favorite weapon already. As much as I’d like to see those sorts of changes, I’m not going to kid myself and say that I’m underpowered now, when I really don’t feel that way, when playing. Staff is a mix of defense and offense, and an all around very solid weapon. There should not be an automatic assumption that it can outdamage a greatsword power build, since gs is a purely offensive weapon, and staff has some great defense built in as well.

I think the other point you were trying to make is that a condition build is not viable for mesmer, and this would make it so. I’ll have to disagree there too…while certainly less optimal as a damage dealing build, conditions are still viable.

I disagree with illusionary elasticity simply having a tooltip bug on the sole reason that this trait affects trident clones.

From the wiki
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Chaos
“Illusionary Elasticity does not apply to this skill in terms of clones, though it is supposed to.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siren%27s_Call
“The tooltip states that the skill bounces 3 times, but in fact only bounces 2 times without Illusionary Elasticity. The clones summoned that cast this are also affected by Illusionary Elasticity.”

As for the viability of staff and condition mesmers as a whole, in all honesty I think its playable but needs quality of life improvements (ie: deceptive evasion summoning clones on our target and a auto attack condition for scepter). As for wanting condition builds to be equal in dps to power builds, my viewpoint is more of maintaining pressure with conditions than having our current inconsistent application.

Esorono.1039:

Embolism.8106:

Phira.3970:

Kanto.1659:

Doing that will simply make one Mesmer able to upkeep 20 bleeds on a target. FINALLY decent Condition damage on par with direct damage. But useless if they do so without upping the bleed cap.

Actually, mesmers can maintain 20+ bleed currently with enough precision. But more would be better.

If you’re very lucky with WoC, maintain loads of Duelists, and/or sacrifice CondDmg for Precision perhaps. Exceptional/sub-optimal builds aside you won’t be able to maintain that many Bleeding stacks.

3 greatsword clones with high precision and franken rune-ing bleed duration can maintain between 18-21 bleeds until they break, adding duelist can make it burst up to 25 if you time it right.

I was under the impression bleed-duration runes do not apply to bleeds applied from our clones. The duration only applies to bleeds you apply (e.g.: from Sigil of Earth).

Knackyknave-that was a bug and got fixed in the last patch. most mesers were too upset about the confusion nerf to notice it.