Guild Wars 2

Theorycrafting new builds is really fun for me. So part of me looks forward to every balance update.

But… right now, my condi mesmer build is awesome for my favorite game mode (roaming in WvW). I get that balancing is sometimes easier by weakening some things versus strengthening others, but it’s not fun to have to theorycraft because your current build has been nerfed so much that it’s not viable. So my fear of the major nerf is bigger than my hope for some fun new things to try out.

I think the challenge for Anet is that there seem to be only a few kinds of changes that could fit the non-nerf but fun to theorycraft category. Here’s how it looks from the perspective of my current build.

I’m always going to take Chronomancer – the default run speed, continuum shift and gravity well are just too much fun. Time catches up, illusionary reversion and chronophantasma are simply all great traits.

I also think I’m always going to take Illusions. I have a lot of investment in condi gear, and I’m totally used to the timing of shatter skills. Plus shattering is fun There are a couple areas where I might experiment if they were better. I would be really willing to try Shattered Strength instead of Maim the Disillusioned if the amount of Might was bigger (maybe 2 stacks per illusion?) Persistence of Memory is still awesome, but I would consider The Pledge or Compounding Power if they were better.

Currently, I’m always going to take Inspiration. The condi removal and healing from Restorative Illusions by itself is enough justification to take the trait line. Mental Defense has wonderful synergy, and Restorative Mantras has been rewarding enough (both as a self-heal and a way to help others) that I use the heal mantra (and this makes Mender’s Purity even better).

But I would consider taking Chaos if it provided a way to deal with conditions. It’s easy to see taking Master of Manipulation and trying to learn to use the Mirror heal. Chaotic Transference is straightforward benefit for a condi roamer build. So somewhere, something would have to deal with condis. It could be from adding Resistance somehow. Otherwise I can’t see dropping Inspiration (realized I made a typo and said Illusions instead of Inspiration in my first post)

So there aren’t a lot of areas that seem like they can change to offer new choices without hurting the things that work so well right now. The one area that seems like it offers some possibility is tweaking sigils and runes. There are a number of them that nobody seems to use because they are underpowered. I’ve kept a stack of Aristocracy runes around hoping for the day that Shattered Strength gets better. And there lots of other runes that seem like they just don’t quite get interesting enough to try.

So in the end, I’m hoping to have mostly very small changes. And the challenge is to find some fun theorycrafting to do with those changes.

P.S. For reference, I’m not using the condi roamer build on Metabattle. I’ve spent a lot of time experimenting and making something I like. I’m using a build that is always scepter in the mainhand, and I really appreciate the buffs to Illusionary Disenchanter in the last updates. I’ve come to really enjoy that skill, and I think it’s a great example of the kinds of changes that work well for me. Here’s my current build

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhQQRAre7fn0nBFqhNqBmpBEgiFnjquQT0GFtx2nE4MAGgED-TFyCQBnY/h6pfIRKBL4JAU/piKrAwRAILKVmwDBIAACwMLzysMDO6RP6RP6RbmzcmzcmzsQALWDA-w

Uhm looks to me like you are using something reeally close to the meta build, at least the pvp meta. You changed 2 traits and bunkered up with tougness instead of power and not using staff, which imo is bad due to the loss of mobility, condition generation and clone generation, stomp protection and reviving protection.

I think I would find it hard to fight thieves with that build.

How do you argue when choosing dual scepter instead of scepter staff or scepter/sword?

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Chronophantasma_Shatter

Edit: added politeness.

Fair point. My goal wasn’t trying to say that my build is extremely unique. In fact, I was trying to say that it seems like the most viable WvW roaming build is condi, and that nearly all condi builds are Chrono, Illusions and Inspiration. So it’s hard for Anet to make changes that don’t nerf that build but still give options for theorycrafting.

In terms of why the weapons I choose, there are a few reasons. I often end up fighting 1v2 and 1v3 fights. So I need to be able to stay alive while still putting down the opponents. To do that, I rely a lot on the defense of both shield and torch. If you look at healing per second, the mantra heal outperforms everything if you take restorative mantras. But to get the recharge done in a fight, I need both the extra stealth from the torch and the 20% faster charging speed from having scepter and malicious sorcery. So always having scepter in main hand is great for offense and it helps me with my healing strategy. And scepter block available every 4 to 5 seconds is very nice.

In terms of fighting thieves, it really doesn’t seem that bad (in a WvW context). Typically, I stealth with torch to start and foil the Steal opener. Then I cast the phantasmal mage and disenchanter. Now when the thief closes, I have block, shatter, weapon swap for geomancy, and, most importantly, I can chain CC together with Tides of Time and Gravity Well and typically I can land at least one. That usually will do it for a thief fight.

But my main goal in writing the post was that it seems like Anet has made it such that there’s a really good build (with some small variants) that works well for WvW roaming. So if I had to choose between nerfing the core of the condi roamer build and having more theorycrafting options or having fewer changes and less theorycrafting, I would take fewer changes.

@jenzie I realized my last video had a couple thieves. This is just a goofy video I made for fun around Christmas, but there’s a daredevil who enters the fight around 1:20 in.
https://youtu.be/ZUbFUJYFVf4

eldenbri.1059:

Fair point. My goal wasn’t trying to say that my build is extremely unique. In fact, I was trying to say that it seems like the most viable WvW roaming build is condi, and that nearly all condi builds are Chrono, Illusions and Inspiration. So it’s hard for Anet to make changes that don’t nerf that build but still give options for theorycrafting
…

That’s not the case. There are 3 other trait lines they could buff. I’ve talked about a few buffs to domination before but I’ll just quickly go over a few that could make theorycrafting better without nerfing those 3 traitlines:

1) Rending shatter: When you strip a boon on an enemy, remove a condition on yourself (1 sec ICD)
2) GM: When you strip a boon, do bonus power damage.
3) Mental anguish: All shatters (F1-F5) now do a bonus 0.25 power coefficient per illusion.

Basically only F1 works for power damage (F3 if traited) so the current mental anguish only really buffs F1 even though it “buffs all of them.” Meanwhile all shatters do conditions damage with illusions. Adding some active sustain and power damage to all shatters in domination could push for people to try and swap inspiration or illusion to domination. It would even give you a reason to run shattered strength instead of MtD.

Change Furious interruption to
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dismantle_Fortifications
Give Dueling a heal on interrupt trait.
Change chaotic interruption to transfer a condition on interrupt instead of random chill/cripple/blind since those are cleared so easily now.
Dom, Dueling, Chaos interrupt mesmer can now compete in this meta.

None of those changes nerf the current meta but do increase diversity / theorycrafting.

Your summary is better than mine, Duck.

I think the best changes are ones that buff the other trait lines to give people more choices and things to try out. I think buffs to rarely used runes and sigils is also a nice thing to try.

I do think for people doing condi roamer builds, the Chrono, Illusions and Inspiration trait lines are really appealing. And I hope they don’t get nerfed

Those changes would be great DuckDuckBOOM.4097

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

That’s not the case. There are 3 other trait lines they could buff. I’ve talked about a few buffs to domination before but I’ll just quickly go over a few that could make theorycrafting better without nerfing those 3 traitlines:

1) Rending shatter: When you strip a boon on an enemy, remove a condition on yourself (1 sec ICD)
2) GM: When you strip a boon, do bonus power damage.
3) Mental anguish: All shatters (F1-F5) now do a bonus 0.25 power coefficient per illusion.

Basically only F1 works for power damage (F3 if traited) so the current mental anguish only really buffs F1 even though it “buffs all of them.” Meanwhile all shatters do conditions damage with illusions. Adding some active sustain and power damage to all shatters in domination could push for people to try and swap inspiration or illusion to domination. It would even give you a reason to run shattered strength instead of MtD.

Change Furious interruption to
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dismantle_Fortifications
Give Dueling a heal on interrupt trait.
Change chaotic interruption to transfer a condition on interrupt instead of random chill/cripple/blind since those are cleared so easily now.
Dom, Dueling, Chaos interrupt mesmer can now compete in this meta.

None of those changes nerf the current meta but do increase diversity / theorycrafting.

Great ideas, for me better then changing ilusion mechanism of mes so many people whant.

Nice suggestions Duck and I agree that horizontal boosts such as boosting underused lines, by definition excludes current meta builds, and there is no reason not to make significant enhancements to make other lines more attractive.

You don’t have to go so far as to create new FoTM that once again replaces the current meta, but you should never cease to make less used lines more appealing with each patch until you create some remotely competitive alternatives to the meta.

One build will always undoubtedly be deemed “better” than the other (aka. meta), but there is currently a sizeable gap between the meta condie build and basically any other build…especially Power builds. Closing that gap a little would go a long way in improving build variety and with that (IMO) the fun of playing a Mesmer.

As Duck alluded to with the Domination suggestions, a major issue for Power builds is the lack of condie cleanses. This is a big crutch to virtually all non-Inspiration builds, but nerfing Inspiration even more is not the answer!

I have some suggestions as well:

Domination:
- Blurred Inscriptions cleanses 2 condies. IMO this would finally be a solid trait choice to build viable Sigil builds that can afford to drop Inspiration! (Certainly if Sigil of Midnight would be turned into a decent Sigil, while remaining instant and on a short CD.)
- Furious Interruption also gains ~3s of Fury (kinda duh!), but ICD to 5s?
- Imagined Burden just needs a complete rework worthy of a GM trait. The idea of it focusing on GS isn’t bad, but without sustain the building up of Might stacks is a pipe-dream.
- Power Block was once a really excellent trait, I never understood why it’s damage was nerfed. It’s a great (and skillful!) way to boost sustained DPS for Power Mesmers as well. With Interruptions sadly being a lot more rare lately, this should have a much bigger sting to it! Boost damage done by 33 – 50% IMHO! Make it hurt to get interrupted by a Power Mesmer!

Dueling:
- Duelist’s Discipline needs a significant boost to make OH Pistol more viable IMO. Pistol should really gt a complete rework, but failing that this trait could be used to make at least traited Pistol a more worthwhile alternative for Dueling focused builds. Sadly the lacking defense will never make current Pistol viable in a dueling build. So by traiting Dueling and Pistols, you should be rewarded with something that aids in… (drum roll) dueling! Just off the top of my head… Casting Phantasmal Duelists gives you 6s of Protection, and give a big damage bonus to Magic Bullet? (I mean I’m shooting a guy, seems like that should hurt considering it’s on a 25s timer. I would keep the interrupt CD reduction for a strong synergy. Let’s face it, the Phantasm uses a slow well telegraphed attack that is easily avoided. Making MB somewhat decent damage wise will not OP Pistol or Mesmers.)
- Fencers Finesse is actually pretty decent, but the duration of the buff is way too short. It should be about 10-12 seconds IMO.
- Agree with Duck on a “heal on interrupt” trait, could replace Evasive Mirror?
- Harmonious Mantras should get a bit of an overhaul to make Mantras more viable. I would make the 3x charges baseline for Mantras, and allow HM to instead reduce casting time of the re-charging Mantras by ~25%. The damage buff can stay as is, because it has decent enough duration at 10 seconds.
- I really want to like Mistrust! It was a really great idea for a Mesmer GM, but sadly it just falls a bit short as interrupts are relatively far and few between these days. For condie builds Dueling is just greatly overshadowed by Illusions, because MtD just synergizes extremely well with Chrono & Shields. For a GM trait Mistrust is just too situational, so it should be given something that you can kinda rely on even when you don’t get the interrupts. (Maybe a ~20% damage boost to Confusion damage? Guards have increased Burn damage and Rangers increased Poison damage…why not?)

Love Ducks idea about Chaos’ Chaotic Interruption trait too! Along with a boost to:
- Illusionary Defense (5%)
- Mental Anguish CD reduction to ~30s?
- Chaotic Transference gets a 20% bonus to Boon Duration added (Synergizes with both PU and BD builds.)
- Bountiful Disillusionment is generally pretty decent as t is, but the Regeneration effect on F4 is just a joke for it being on the longest CD. I’d say move Resistance from F5 to F4 and increase it’s duration to 3 seconds, and then give F5 Protection for ~6 seconds.

Remember, this is just to give some ideas! Not saying all or any of them are great ones. ;-)

Considering how, unless this balance update is nothing like any of the previous ones, this patch will change ~nothing and not even remotely touch any of the actual issues the class balance and design face right now, what does it matter?

It’ll all stay (roughly) the same. Because as always, these balance patches come either much too rarely (the past size would need to be applied monthly or so to end up moving classes to a better balance slowly), or much too small and don’t do enough (should have changes far bigger and do more daring changes such as ripping out entire skills or trait lines, and that 4x a year).

Overall, there’s no challenge to pose. Just ignore the balance patch, swap the odd thing around, done. The effect will as always be ignorable.

I tried your build in hotjoin quickly, it’s pretty fun! I gotta admit the dual scepters work. Had some problem with clone generation though but that might be that I need to get into the build. Think it’s better for wvw but I just wanted to test it quickly.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

eldenbri.1059:

Fair point. My goal wasn’t trying to say that my build is extremely unique. In fact, I was trying to say that it seems like the most viable WvW roaming build is condi, and that nearly all condi builds are Chrono, Illusions and Inspiration. So it’s hard for Anet to make changes that don’t nerf that build but still give options for theorycrafting
…

That’s not the case. There are 3 other trait lines they could buff. I’ve talked about a few buffs to domination before but I’ll just quickly go over a few that could make theorycrafting better without nerfing those 3 traitlines:

1) Rending shatter: When you strip a boon on an enemy, remove a condition on yourself (1 sec ICD)
2) GM: When you strip a boon, do bonus power damage.
3) Mental anguish: All shatters (F1-F5) now do a bonus 0.25 power coefficient per illusion.

Basically only F1 works for power damage (F3 if traited) so the current mental anguish only really buffs F1 even though it “buffs all of them.” Meanwhile all shatters do conditions damage with illusions. Adding some active sustain and power damage to all shatters in domination could push for people to try and swap inspiration or illusion to domination. It would even give you a reason to run shattered strength instead of MtD.

Change Furious interruption to
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dismantle_Fortifications
Give Dueling a heal on interrupt trait.
Change chaotic interruption to transfer a condition on interrupt instead of random chill/cripple/blind since those are cleared so easily now.
Dom, Dueling, Chaos interrupt mesmer can now compete in this meta.

None of those changes nerf the current meta but do increase diversity / theorycrafting.

1. absolutely not. That’s basically PI thief on crack.

Hi Jenzie,

Glad you liked trying the build. I re-read the original post, and realized it could have come off sounding like “MY” build. I meant it to be – “the build I’m using”. The double scepter idea actually came from Messiah. Back when Mercenary Amulet existed and Persistence of Memory was 2 seconds per shatter, this was really fun in pvp. I actually played to diamond rank that time. But I hate letting down a pvp team and I just haven’t found a pvp build I like, so I haven’t really played pvp much since the removal of merc amulet.

You are right (from my opinion) that it is better in WvW. In WvW, you can go all trailblazer or dire and be really survivable. The illusion generation seems fine for me. If you let the scepter auto-attack and you use the scepter block a lot and you shatter the phantasms to reduce the recharge, it seems to keep a nice supply of illusions.

The main point I was trying to get across (poorly) in the original post, is that Chrono, Illusions and Inspiration really synergize well and make a really nice condi roamer. So I would opt for no changes in those lines versus things that break the build if those were the only choices. And putting in changes in the other trait lines or runes and sigils would be cool to see what people can do.

Have fun!

Gwaihir.1745:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

eldenbri.1059:

Fair point. My goal wasn’t trying to say that my build is extremely unique. In fact, I was trying to say that it seems like the most viable WvW roaming build is condi, and that nearly all condi builds are Chrono, Illusions and Inspiration. So it’s hard for Anet to make changes that don’t nerf that build but still give options for theorycrafting
…

That’s not the case. There are 3 other trait lines they could buff. I’ve talked about a few buffs to domination before but I’ll just quickly go over a few that could make theorycrafting better without nerfing those 3 traitlines:

1) Rending shatter: When you strip a boon on an enemy, remove a condition on yourself (1 sec ICD)
2) GM: When you strip a boon, do bonus power damage.
3) Mental anguish: All shatters (F1-F5) now do a bonus 0.25 power coefficient per illusion.

Basically only F1 works for power damage (F3 if traited) so the current mental anguish only really buffs F1 even though it “buffs all of them.” Meanwhile all shatters do conditions damage with illusions. Adding some active sustain and power damage to all shatters in domination could push for people to try and swap inspiration or illusion to domination. It would even give you a reason to run shattered strength instead of MtD.

Change Furious interruption to
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dismantle_Fortifications
Give Dueling a heal on interrupt trait.
Change chaotic interruption to transfer a condition on interrupt instead of random chill/cripple/blind since those are cleared so easily now.
Dom, Dueling, Chaos interrupt mesmer can now compete in this meta.

None of those changes nerf the current meta but do increase diversity / theorycrafting.

1. absolutely not. That’s basically PI thief on crack.

1) Base mesmer doesn’t have head shot spam.
2) Dom, Dueling, chaos would not have access to all that good stuff that comes with chrono (25% move speed, shield, gravity well for aoe interrupts F5 alacrity etc.)
3) Furious interruption would be mutually exclusive with removing boons on shatter. So the mesmer would have to pick either extra good at stripping stability to land interrupts or generically good at removing boons. Realistically, it would only work against classes that have a constant passive 1 stack of stability.

I stopped playing for about 6 months and only returned recently. When I came back the first thing I saw in the latest patch notes were DH were getting buff (liked they needed it) and Mes were still being nerfed for some reason only known to the devs. Honestly there isn’t that much left to nerf. But I’m sure they will find something. They just don’t have a clue with what to do with Mes at the moment. They made them strong in HoT update and since then have pruned it all back.

I prefer power shatter, so if they can make that a more viable build to play again in PvP I would be happy. Need much better condi cleanse and stability added to traits for the power lines.

For what it is worth I agree that changes could be made to various skills and traits to increase build diversity, but I believe the primary culprit is the forced utility selection of portal because of its strength. So long as portal remains as is, Mesmers will be forced into its selection because no other skill can compete. This restricts alternate utility skill use, alternate synergies, and alternate playstyles.

With this in mind, the first change I would want to see to encourage build diversity would be to alter Portal. I have one idea that follows, but please do not think I am under any illusion that it is the best alternative, would actually be implemented, or may even be the best solution overall considering the current implementation of Portal has become such an ingrained part of GW2 Mesmer identity and I am not a professional developer.

Portal Entre: (60 sec cooldown) Create an entrance portal at your location that you and allies may later return to. (Creating a new portal entrance while you have an active portal destroys the active portal.)
>Range Threshold: 1200
>Duration: 60 seconds

Sequence Skill= Portal Exuent: Break stun, create an exit portal at your location, and immediately return to your portal entrance. You and allies may teleport between portal locations for the duration.
>Range Threshold: 1200
>Duration: 5 sec
>Breaks Stun

Alternate Sequence Skill (Changes at >1200 range)= Weaver’s Recall: Break stun and teleport towards your portal entrance, destroying it in the process and setting the skill on recharge.
>Range Threshold: >1200
>Travel Distance: 1200
>Breaks Stun

This would limit the focus of Portal to a personal and team recovery tool while maintaining localized mobility usage. Lowered cooldown to remove downtime when Portal Exuent or Weaver’s Recall is not used. Added a stun break to contribute to the new in-combat recovery focus of the skill. Removed action delay to allow for immediate relocation to be consistent with similar stun breaks and new skill focus. Added Weaver’s Recall for limited personal use outside of the localized range and to allow for consistent behavior with similar skills (Flesh Worm, Shadow Step).

I think this would retain the essence of Portal’s concept and use for support mobility, but on a considerably more limited scale that eliminates its use for map dominance. The skill would remain arguably strong, and may even stay best in slot, but its more limited scope would increase alternate utility skill use. Alternate utility skill use would allow for different synergies and increase potential build diversity.

That would be an awful change. Not only are you cutting the distance you can travel with portal down to less than 1/4 what it currently is (which for PvE is awful), with a 5 second limit on it, you also hurt the ability of your team to use it to its fullest extent.

My suggestion for portal is to make this an elite glamour skill. Why? First because it deserves the spot. It is very impactful skill in many ways. Second, because it nerfs mesmer enough in PvP (competing with moa!!) to be compensated by a significant sustained damage buff. Finally, because it increases build diversity, especially in PvP. You have now 2 utilities available for build diversity instead of one (blink remains great). In my experience, whenever I decide to not have portal on my bar, I feel like I can actually introduce variations.

Yes, the idea was to fundamentally restrict the way in which Portal is currently used, not to make it better at what it already does.

The skill suggestion aside, the primary commentary was as follows: (1) Portal is so strong it is mandatory, (2) taking Portal limits builds to two utility slots, (3) having a third utility option may be sufficient to open build diversity, (4) if build diversity is desired, Portal would need to be made not-mandatory.

I think Silverkey’s suggestion is simpler to implement and more elegant. I would still worry that the issue would be moved to elites now, making Portal push out other elite options. If Portal were to swap places with an elite, it would have to be done carefully lest that third utility slot still be made mandatory, now by the swapped elite.

Portal as na elit – for me great idea.

I had an idea for sword:

Fencer’s Finesse
Instead of feriocity buff, all U’r clone summoning skills summon PSwordmen.
Dunno if it will not be to strong for second tier trait but I think it could bring double sword back in to play in some builds. Specialy in pve.

The idea of making Portal an Elite is kind of a mixed bag.

In principle I like the idea for the reasons that Silverkey stated, but the problem is that it is such a fundamental requirement to PvP that you really kinda screw the other Elites in the process.

This is going to be controversial and broadly disliked, but when you step back and consider what Portal brings to the game, it really should probably just be removed from sPvP entirely.

In WvW and of course PvE I don’t see a big issue keeping it, and I do see a big issue in removing it. In sPvP I only see it being beneficial to both the Mesmer profession and more balanced sPvP in general.

Obviously Mesmers would need to be compensated with another strong utility of some kind, but Portal is basically the equivalent of a tactical nuclear bomb in the hands of a coordinated team in sPvP. You can not really outplay or counter it without a Mesmer of your own, and while it’s nice that this makes Mesmers a requirement in top-level team play, it’s also kinda frustrating that it’s mainly this rather OPd ability (and perhaps Moa) that make it that way.

It’s as much a burden to Mesmers as it is a boon. In unorganized/PuG play Portal is often not that great (dumb team mates make it ineffective), yet you’re required to bring it anyway, and that does limit build diversity as Silverkey pointed out.

I dunno…a tough call. What Portal definitely does not need is more nerfs that end up leaving it as a requirement for Mesmers, but water it down to where it performs even worse (more unreliably) in PuG play then it does even now.

Windwalker.7421:

In principle I like the idea for the reasons that Silverkey stated, but the problem is that it is such a fundamental requirement to PvP that you really kinda screw the other Elites in the process.

If you think about PvP, currently Moa is the go-to elite. No choice here. And Moa is so strong that I actually think it CAN compete with portal. I would go as far as saying this is the only skill which can compete with portal competitively.

GW can be good in PvP and is probably used by many (yet not competitive). I don’t know how much the skill would suffer if portal competes for the slot. Also, putting portal as an elite glamour may mess things up in the skills (what does time warp become? is it just a non-elite glamour? does it switch to an elite well since it fits chronomancer much more? etc…).

Mass invisibility is only somewhat useful in WvW as far as I see it.

In PvE or WvW, portal is useful but more situational so here the competition is less difficult.

If they were both elites Moa wouldn’t be able to compete with portal in high level PvP, nor when on a coordinated team (even if your team only played at bronze level). Moa will take 1 person out of the fight temporarily, but portal allows you insane map control. They aren’t comparable.

On one hand I want to agree that mesmer would be better off if portal was removed. I really do. But I also don’t believe we would get anything near enough to compensate for it being removed.

^ Sadly I totally agree. It’s one of those “be careful what you ask for” situations with Anet. ;-)

I was thinking a little more about this, and I know it has been suggested elsewhere in the past, but “what if” the elite slot was elite optional and allowed for utilities OR elites to be selected across the game for all professions? Just a fun thought.