Guild Wars 2

is such a thing even possible?

Phantasm build. All they do is cnd off phantasms and pick whenever they want to burst you, blinding you constantly, at the same time making you waste yer dodges to cancel your phantasms cast.Yea a phantasm might get lucky and hit them, but all they do is stealth and heal up. Pistol phantasms are the worst, cuz they are easy cnd fodder.

Shatter build. They just save their dodges/evades for the shatter. If they get locked down by a combo, they just shadow step out.

Perplex build. The only build i can win at least half the time with. But the really good thieves are getting smart and blinding you so when u block u waste yer torment attack. Against anything but the best thieves its almost 100% win.

Im not talking bout yer average or even good thief. Im talking bout the ones with perfect execution and dont mess up.

Is there anyway to help cancel out with constant stealth/blind/burst rinse repeat routine? Force them to screw up?

The only other option i have found, which helps outside of sanctioned duels is to use terrain. Bring them to a location where they are forced to fight (Like at the vista above the old ruins).

Thought, tips, suggestions? Just dont even bother? run?

Errrr… Well, shouldnt a flawless thief win? If you manage to make them to screw up, they arent flawless.

I honestly dont understand what you want out of this. Tips on beating a thief? Only the best Mesmers can beat the best Thieves by definition – otherwise neither is the best.

Not bothering to fight and running away is an option, sure. Wont help you get better at beating the best Thieves though. Only standing your ground and fighting will do that.

When fighting Thieves i find Going stealth. A Dodge clone and then NOT moving helps. This works quite well against any class really – if your clones arent moving neither should you.

I take Decoy, mirror Images and Blink some times to help when they try to do their burst at the start. From that point get clones out. You can use a Phantasm as well for bursting them down but a couple of clones.

Another thing i find that works well if you want to get close – Use a shatter even if you have no traits you can continue to use skills and summon new ones as your ones run towards them. At this point you should run towards them as well.

Torch/Staff build will be your savior against thieves. I know Phantasmal Mage doesn’t get much love but it’s one of the best ones against them. Here’s what usually goes down when I fight thieves:

Thief initially Blinds. I go Prestige removing the Blind condition and allowing me to pop Mage while invisible. Traited, this usually applies a Blind+Confusion, meaning he probably won’t be spamming auto-attack trying to find me. With Sword main hand, do the usual Leap+Frenzy combo while timing your Prestige reappearance. Tip: Try and keep a Mage present. The second the Thief comes out of stealth to do another smoke+leap combo, it’s going to get tagged by the Mage. The decision goes to them: if they want Stealth from a leap, they’re going to have to take a hit from 3 stacks of Confusion.

Switch to Staff and do the usual routine, Storm+Retreat for Chaos Armor. Once that runs out, activate your normal Chaos Armor. This is your best counter because chance for Confusion or Blind, and when traited, also causes Confusion. Tip: When you have Chaos Armor, do try and take the hits if you can, meaning activate it when you’re out of Endurance. If you dodge with Chaos Armor, then it’s a total waste.

@Dawdler, but can the best power mesmer beat the best thief? Ide say im pretty good, but im having issues beating the best thieves when i use any power build. PU conditions builds i have no problem winning against the same exact thief. In my power builds i have having issue applying any damage.

@Armaggdon, I’ve dabbled a little with playing clone, but not much success. Good tips tho, ill play with that a little more.

@mambastik, I can beat the best thieves with that setup. But ide prefer to run a power build without torch. I just hate how slow the build is for roaming (since i use perplex on that setup). Im contemplating trying that setup with traveler runes tho. Bu ti want that to be a last resort.

Rinzler.8072:

@mambastik, I can beat the best thieves with that setup. But ide prefer to run a power build without torch. I just hate how slow the build is for roaming (since i use perplex on that setup). Im contemplating trying that setup with traveler runes tho. Bu ti want that to be a last resort.

Yup extremely slow, I’m usually forced to carry a Focus for long runs in WvW which is a hassle. But it’s a small sacrifice for a build that’s practically unbeatable and super flexible: 1v1, small group, zergs. I run with Balthazar runes with Fire aoe on Heal. For example, for breaking up groups, do Prestige, start the Heal, time it correctly and Blink right in middle of the group with Frenzy. Add a Sigil of Fire and it’s just an orchestra of explosions which drops most Zerkers hiding behind front lines.

The only reason I switched out of this build is because everything seems easy mode.

This question is rather silly.

Theoretically, a flawless thief is not possible to beat, because you won’t be able to do enough damage to them. They will dodge your lock downs, cleanse your immobilizes, and disengage at will.

Theoretically, a flawless mesmer is not possible to beat. They will dodge your lockdowns, block your backstabs, and cleanse your bleed stacks.

I’m really not sure what you’re asking here.

Using a condi build with scepter torch and staff both in pvp and wvw I can say I haven’t met a thief that can best me in a 1v1 yet and I have fought some significantly skilled thieves if not the best. They can run away or disengage (not in a duel) or it can take a bit long but eventually they all go down. They cannot even land enough burst to get me worried. I think condi build is a thief-slayer. A perplexity rune equipped thief though could give you some trouble. Only in WvW though.

With a power build you cannot go full berserk, you need a fair amount of toughness against thieves. Basically if you go full berserk you must do absolutely no mistake, but at equal or close skill level duelling both parties will extract mistakes now and then from each other. So you will have to have enough armor or mitigation mechanism to get through that and you also need precise timing which will only come with lots and lots of practice even if you lose for hours and hours until you don’t lose anymore.

On my powerbuilds i havnt run full berserk for awhile. Im genraly running full zerk armor, and full cavlier trinkets.

I think its s/d, d/d thieves that give me the most issues because they have so many options to blind and stealth.

If I see a thief go stealth mode often, then I fall back on stealth traps.

I’m pretty sure what’s being asked is can a flawless power mesmer beat a flawless thief.

Good tips from mambastik. I loved running scepter+torch/staff when glamour build was viable. Once I’m bored maybe I’ll try your style out.

Ethics.4519:

I’m pretty sure what’s being asked is can a flawless power mesmer beat a flawless thief.

Good tips from mambastik. I loved running scepter+torch/staff when glamour build was viable. Once I’m bored maybe I’ll try your style out.

Yea i guess that is what i was getting @. Im beginning to feel its a uphill battle for the power mesmer. I seems very hard to put any kind of significant damage down becuase of the constant stealths and blinds. And its not like u can just turn around and cleave with your sword.

But ide defintly like to hear more advices and tactics regarding the matter.

(And no posting the oscicat video, i could beat that thief)

Well the question is still impossible to answer. The Mesmer would kill the Thief before he can react, the Thief would kill the Mesmer before he can react. Neither can be flawless in a real world situation. Its impossible.

Personally I still fail to see why you would have problem with a power Mesmer. I find them one of the few class builds that can counter thieves, just because you get high damage very fast between stealths (phantasms all attacking on reappearance, iBerserker and GS autoattack, etc). I wish I had recording a battle I had with an SPRT thief the other day, sigh… We engaged each other 4 times I think. He fled every time and came back at full HP of course. Managed to kill him the last time with fairly little effort.

Dawdler.8521:

Well the question is still impossible to answer. The Mesmer would kill the Thief before he can react, the Thief would kill the Mesmer before he can react. Neither can be flawless in a real world situation. Its impossible.

Personally I still fail to see why you would have problem with a power Mesmer. I find them one of the few class builds that can counter thieves, just because you get high damage very fast between stealths (phantasms all attacking on reappearance, iBerserker and GS autoattack, etc). I wish I had recording a battle I had with an SPRT thief the other day, sigh… We engaged each other 4 times I think. He fled every time and came back at full HP of course. Managed to kill him the last time with fairly little effort.

It’s a hypothetical question. He wants to know if it’s possible for him to kill a good thief using phantasm mesmer build.

If so, what strategy do yo guys recommend.

Why the heck can’t you all understand the question?

The answer to this hypothetical question is No, unfortunately. At condi, you can tie an extremely pro thief, but you won’t kill each other.

As power phantasm, if they’re smart (95% of them aren’t) they will take time to reappear and 1-shot your phantasms. You eventually won’t have decoy/blink/other defensives up and they will kill you.

Most thief die easily though, so don’t worry about it too much. I still regard it as balanced enough. They don’t have the opportunity to really do that in group fights. While they’re harassing you, you and your phantasms can still drop amazing damage on their teammates.

Ionus.5467:

The answer to this hypothetical question is No, unfortunately. At condi, you can tie an extremely pro thief, but you won’t kill each other.

As power phantasm, if they’re smart (95% of them aren’t) they will take time to reappear and 1-shot your phantasms. You eventually won’t have decoy/blink/other defensives up and they will kill you.

Most thief die easily though, so don’t worry about it too much. I still regard it as balanced enough. They don’t have the opportunity to really do that in group fights. While they’re harassing you, you and your phantasms can still drop amazing damage on their teammates.

This is the exact conclusion i came to with some other mesmer buddies the other night and the exact thing i am experiencing.

Dont me wrong, i dont have trouble with 95% of thieves, and they cant pull that stuff off in group battles. Hence why i still run the build.

Ide rather just take the very small chance ill run into that perfect thief, vs running my slow perplex build.

Yeah dude, I agree. Condi is just slow dmg and especially slow if they aren’t attacking you or using abilities.

I’ve been running pure glass GS and either staff or sword/pistol lately, I like it much better than condi. I’ve been running 30/15/0/25/0 and using Power Spike. Really nice burst.

My only complaint is about the darned iWarlock in the other thread I made today. lol

I run a phantasm build and I seldom lose to thieves unless 2+v1. I have the nice advantage of running lockdown along with my phantasm spec. This messes up thieves so hard. If they use basilisk venom, I pop MoD and decoy and suddenly they can’t DPS spike me anymore with the addition of giving me enough time to pop phantasms. And any time they attack from stealth, unlike mesmers, they trigger revealed. This is more than enough time to CC them with stuns/dazes. A thief without skills is a dead thief. Also, I’m not total glass.

Good thief players are known for their aggression, persistence, and patience. So run to a cliff and they’ll follow. Then temporal curtain them off.

Beating thieves isn’t that hard you just have to react carefully. most thieves run something called Basilisk Venom witch stuns you on attack, simply carry any stun breaker skill to counter, and we have a lot. I usually carry two: Blink, and Decoy.

On clone death builds. They CnD on a clone/phant, they die.

Thieves no longer cnd. All the ones I fought do pistol 5 and heartseeker. Unlimited stealth.

stall him until you can run to a pool of water, little bit harder in wvw since they made the middle of the BL thief friendly.
but 1 or 2 things will happen, he’ll be stupid and fight one of the best classes underwater, or he’ll run.

only really reliable method to beat a thief.

My friend and I (both power mesmers) had a 2v2 with two thieves. The battle when on for minutes — sorry I don’t have an exact time but it was long…

We eventually lost to the thieves unfortunately.

My biggest problem was trying to land my skills. If I wasn’t blind then I was evaded. I swear they were dodging almost continuously out of stealth. Someone said they can build for three dodges, but not having a thief I don’t know. Very frustrating to lose a phantasm to c/d because of a dodge/blind. More frustrating to lose one more often than not.

Regardless it was an “acceptable” loss as they seemed quite skilled at playing thief. I’ll never be happy with the stealth mechanic in this game however.

In retrospect we needed to coordinate focus-pulls and I think we could have pulled out a victory.

I had a fight with a Thief last night. Has to have lasted 20minutes. It was alot of fun. I lost due to the fact a Guardian came up and helped him. Other than that i dont think he would have managed to kill me.

Several times i had him under 20% health and had him down to like 10% a few times. I went down to about 40-50% at most. Every time i got close to killing him he got his stealth up.

The way i went about it was to have several clones up. As soon as he goes stealth i would stop moving. I would even remove all phantasms and have just clones up. This made him waste BV ALOT on the clones, think he managed to get me with it a couple of times but having 3 utilities that are also stun breakers (Mirror Images, Decoy and Blink) helped make that not a threat. To the point he would change his utilities and elite several times during the fight when it was reset.

With the fact the clones would still be up and seeing his AoE dodge thing going off every couple of seconds made me know he was still around. When he would appear if i was in Sword/Pistol i would pop Magic Bullet > iDuelist > iLeap and then Frenzy i got him several times with that combo but having not so great gear held me back from kil;ling him.

As soon as he would use that AoE stealth area thing i would use the Greatsword knockback to force him out of it and then release Zerker and such. I would also use Decoy during his stealth to not only bring up new clones but to be able to adjust my location to have a clone behind me.

Every time the clone would move, i would do the same in the same direction and stop when they do.

Had i had a little bit better gear, due to the fact i have changed spec so was using level 71 condition pistol, 80 blue sword and several other condition gear including armor and accessories meant that i couldnt nuke him down quick enough.

Though saying that, he was very little of a threat to me and as said i only died as a Guardian came up and they kept me chain stunned until i died.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I had a fight with a Thief last night.

Had a similar fight yesterday with a thief holding one of the ruins in WvW. He started off with a SB / d/p set, but after about 2-3 minutes he disengaged and switched to a s/d / d/p build. I was running a PU power based build at the time.

Like yourself the fight went on and on for probably 10 minutes, with neither one of us going far below 50% at any time. He kept stealing my boons which is most likely what kept him alive for so long. Also the huge amount of dodging meant landing ileap/swap was very hard. I think a PU condition build would have been easier.

In the end we got interrupted by a 6-man group that killed me, as I naturally only had 1 stealth available, which is not enough to get away from all the mobility available to other classes. I assume the thief got away just fine, of course.

Hardest thieves for me these days are still the dedicated backstab GC ones IF they get the jump on you. 1/2 or more of your health gone instantly is tough to recover from as you have to stealth then heal, and now that your heal is gone the thief has 20 seconds to try and finish you.

dandamanno.4136:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I had a fight with a Thief last night.

Had a similar fight yesterday with a thief holding one of the ruins in WvW.

What server you on? As mine was in the ruins last night as well lol
Yeah for me, had i replaced the rest of my condition items with soliders/zerkers i would have killed him. Though think had he not waited for all his utilities and elite to recharge i think it would have gone the other way as all my Utilities are stun breakers so his Venom was of little threat to me.

Once he swapped to thieves guild. That was when he was at his most dangerous as they continue to attack me after i went into and came out of stealth never losing agro at all. Though in the end that wasnt enough for him to kill me either. I am running toughness on everything. I have decent/good health and running Stealth boons as well which added to that survivability.

I have been thinking of swapping for a more Phantasm heavy build – taking the 2 15% Phantasm traits, illusion cool down and such but think i would lose to much.

Cant take the one from Domination or i would lose Cripple on death or GS cool down
Cant take the one from Inspiration as i would have to take 25points from somewhere
Cant take the one from Illusions as i would have to take 25points from somewhere

Cant take points from Domination as i would lose Cripple on death or GS cool down
Cant take points from Dueling as i would lose Deceptive Evasion
Cant take points from Chaos as i would lose Prismatic Understanding

So really stuck in my current build – even though i would love to go more Phantasm attacking

Pyroatheist.9031:

This question is rather silly.

Theoretically, a flawless thief is not possible to beat, because you won’t be able to do enough damage to them. They will dodge your lock downs, cleanse your immobilizes, and disengage at will.

Theoretically, a flawless mesmer is not possible to beat. They will dodge your lockdowns, block your backstabs, and cleanse your bleed stacks.

I’m really not sure what you’re asking here.

What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

That’s really what he’s asking.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

What server you on?

JQ, I believe the thief was BG but my memory ain’t great so it could have been SoR.

Flawless doesn’t exist. And if it did your going to need to be flawless to compair.

That being said it’s all reactionary

I’d like help to out but your kind of vague and without context.

Did he initiate or did you? Was there better positioning you could have used to your advantage including the possibility of over extending? Were you out of C/D’s or blown your elite? Or has he?

I play shatter in all game modes because I enjoy the build and I admit the build can shut thieves down if played right. But some of the hardest thief fights vs high ranked players before the removal of paid tourneys (arena tittled) were never thaaaat bad and I found it to be a rather fair fight and prob some of the most fun next to prenerf ele which lasted forever.

Really bro just out play them, keep dueling Thieves and learn to anticipate them then out playing them will come natural over time.

juno.1840:

I swear they were dodging almost continuously out of stealth. Someone said they can build for three dodges, but not having a thief I don’t know.

I’m leveling a thief at the moment and gotta say thieves have plenty of ways to get perma-evade

- Lots of skills with evade built-in
- Lots of traits to get vigor and regain endurance
- Dagger auto attack gains endurance

Feline grace is a trait that alone by itself effectively enables u to have 3 dodges and its a minor trait.
>.<

keenlam.4753:

juno.1840:

I swear they were dodging almost continuously out of stealth. Someone said they can build for three dodges, but not having a thief I don’t know.

I’m leveling a thief at the moment and gotta say thieves have plenty of ways to get perma-evade

- Lots of skills with evade built-in
- Lots of traits to get vigor and regain endurance
- Dagger auto attack gains endurance

Feline grace is a trait that alone by itself effectively enables u to have 3 dodges and its a minor trait.
>.<

I find it very hard to combat a thief who repeats the same sequence again and again:

1. Pop from stealth with an attack
2. Dodge
3. Dodge
4. Dodge
5. Stealth
6. Repeat

With the change to phantasms six months ago, trying to land any phantasm through the dodges is very difficult — especially with the long cast times. Landing any attack is hard at this point.

Granted the thief is not doing any sort of burst damage, but it gradually wears you down. That’s why the fights just go on and on. If you do get the upper hand, they flee.

ther is no such thing as a flawless thief. there is the regular thief, that uses the same 3 buttons over and over even if its not working out for him at all.
example: pistol thief keeps shooting even though i i ve 2 iwardens up and kills himself XD

and then there is the skilled thief that is less predictable. make sure u dont burn your defenses all at the same time. there is typical combos they all do, but stay on the defense. i find decoy and torch quite useful vs such thieves.

PU Mesmer against a S/D D/P thief = an equal fight that goes on forever (or until someone makes a huge mistake). They are basically counters to each other. As a Mesmer, the most important thing is to manage your cooldowns.

The last thief that attacked me, we fought for 15 minutes before he invited me to party and complained about the build I was using (Blackwater+Traveler’s build) and that I had constant Protection up.

Tips – when a thief stealths, wait 2 seconds then stealth yourself. Or pop your scepter block at about 2 seconds as the thief will usually come out of stealth at 3 seconds and attack you.

Shatter Mesmers generally have a harder time unless you can time two Shatters on him in quick succession when he is already at lower health.

The good thing about that is, Thief S/D should be getting a little nerf in the next patch where Larcenous Strike only steals 1 boon instead of 2, which should give PU some advantage back.

I say nerf PU, it’s to cheesy :p

Xavi.6591:

PU Mesmer against a S/D D/P thief = an equal fight that goes on forever (or until someone makes a huge mistake).

I agree, mine went on for SO long with the Thief. I nearly had him several times but thanks to his stealths and resetting i just couldnt finish him off. He mostly wasted his Bask Venom on my clones and when he did manage to get me with it i had no fear thanks to the fact i run with Decoy, Blink and Mirror Images which are all stun breakers.

I think in the end i COULD have won as i got his health down to like 10-15% a few times but he wasnt really a threat to me thanks to my clones and making sure when he went stealth i would place myself around the clones and with 3 interrupts (shatter, Magic Bullet and wave) i could still stop his burst enough.

Think had i had a bit better gear which currently is alot of condition from my old build then i think i would have won.

Xavi.6591:

Tips – when a thief stealths, wait 2 seconds then stealth yourself. Or pop your scepter block at about 2 seconds as the thief will usually come out of stealth at 3 seconds and attack you.

This is a great tip, try and wait as long as you can before popping stealth. Though some times if you stealth first it can make them run away. Another tip would be:

When they go stealth, dodge roll (if in combat and have DE) and stand with your clone behind you. This will better protect you against BV and BS burst.

When you come out of stealth DONT move. This will help confuse your target as they would be expecting you to be moving when your clones dont move, you shouldnt. This also helps for while they are in stealth just be ready for that stun breaker if they manage to guess correctly