Guild Wars 2

How easily are those necros generating life force? Scepter 3 and staff auto? Those are pretty bad for a condi necro and just bad in general for LF gen. Trait’s wont be giving them any. So utilities or basically spectral grasp on a 15 sec cooldown. Toughness is def there from the armor but they most likely have little to no defense from their traits if go 30/20/0/0/20 to be truly dangerous.

Have you just been running a 20/20/0/0/30 then? I agree that toughness is near useless in this meta.

Take time to build those conditions stacks

Pop into deathshroud (trigger Weakening Shroud) → #3, #5 → exit deathshroud, spam marks and also trigger Dhuumfire in the process doesn’t really take time and constantly fears you in the process.

Weakening shroud takes about 1 second to go off after the necro goes into death shroud. Just using phase retreat as he enters death shroud negates that entire first combo. If the necro wants fears to be 50% longer, then you can just dodge through the marks. If he has the staff/marks traited, just use blink.

Actually… something I never paid attention to, do clones trigger marks?

Yep ^^ I’m always using sword clones (since they are melee and not just stand there like staff clones) to clear marks before charging in.

/edit: And while Cleansing Shatter might be helpful against conditions, we have to abandon way too much to get it. Without IP and Shatter recharge @ 50% HP our defense greatly suffers and since our shatters take much longer to recharge (or we can’t get Deceptive Evasion if we go 30 in Inspiration and Illusions) our bursts are much rarer and it’s becoming easier to outplay us.

//edit: And while the traitline synergize well with a phantasm build, shattering illusions for cleanses is something you don’t want really want to do.

This thread seems to have derailed a bit lol

A bit, yes ^^

I’m gonna quote myself:

I’m currently using divinity just because of the increased crit damage over air runes. Air and Hoelbrak (for might stacking and shortened condition duration) are also good.

For sigils i’m using Perception on my staff and Fire/Accuracy on Sword/Torch. Looking forward to get another staff with generosity/energy after stacks are full and for duels.

Well…Divinity Runes are extremely expensive (i got mine gifted ^^) but Air (offensive), Hoelbrak (balanced) and Melandru (defensive) are good alternatives.

I would say tangent not derailed. Rune’s should not be decided in a vacuum but with the meta in mind. Of course, how strongly the meta influences your choice/build leads to the question of if that meta is OP or not.

Shattered conditions does cost 30 points to get but you gain a lot of team support with that line. I would think 10/20/0/30/10 or 20/20/0/30/0. As I think you said earlier in this thread, it’s about risk vs reward. What defense/offense does a condi necro have with their conditions being wrecked? They don’t have evades, blocks, or vigor and have minimal protection in that build. No stability if they are condi. High health is not high sustain.

There are both risky and hard counters to that necro meta and I stand by mesmers being fine right now. I agree with the runes.

They DO have stability, unless they go with the golem elite both Plague and Lich give like 20secponds of Stability.

1 easily stolen/stripped stability on a 180 second cd >_> So powerful. I was more so talking about consistent necro stability like foot in the grave but sure. They might have 1.

you said “No stability if they are condi” nothing mentioned about ones tht could be stolen. So, yes they do.

Actually, the only class that has no stability (outside of a useless mantra) is mesmer.

/edit: Could be nice if Protected Mantras gave stability while casting mantras (possibly also protection, removing the flat +400 toughness). Mantras need some buffs to be viable outside of MoP heal spamming.

I forgot about the ult and conceded that they might bring 1 source of stability. It’s still not a great source of stability. Bonus points for finding that spelling mistake earlier too. Now how about you discuss the main argument.

If a mesmer strips the condis fast enough, what sustainable offense or defense does that “OP” necro have? How is a shattered condition mesmer not a hard counter to a condi necro meta?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

You seem to totally miss the point EVERY time. AoE Boon removal is decent not exactly required though is it? Neither is Portal. Sure we have good spike damage, however Necro can spike ALOT while fearing you as well as the ability to stay at range and could use Lich just for the fun of it to make sure you die. What Elite can we use to a similar effect?….

What point am I missing? That the mesmer should always be required? Why should any skill/class be required in a balanced game that has 5 slots per team and 8 professions.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Morph
“A successful cast will end any forms in use by an enemy such as Tornado or Lich Form.”

How many have you faced in WvW or T/SPvP?`at the VERY best you wont die early but you WILL die. Just because they are a condition build that doesnt mean that they cant do damage in other ways. Building just to counter Conditions mean that you wont have the power to actually kill them, taking all the possible utilities for condition removal means less for anything else.

What about in group fights? what about when you have more then one condition player unloading conditions everywhere – you think that you will be able to remove all of them, keep the party alive and kill the other team?

If so, then you either have faced against rubbish people or havent faced any of them.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How many have you faced in WvW or T/SPvP?`at the VERY best you wont die early but you WILL die. Just because they are a condition build that doesnt mean that they cant do damage in other ways. Building just to counter Conditions mean that you wont have the power to actually kill them, taking all the possible utilities for condition removal means less for anything else.

What about in group fights? what about when you have more then one condition player unloading conditions everywhere – you think that you will be able to remove all of them, keep the party alive and kill the other team?

If so, then you either have faced against rubbish people or havent faced any of them.

So you’re saying a team of all condition builds will win 100% of the time? That’s how I read your post.

Preparing to face condition heavy opponents does not impact power unless it requires trait adjustments, and even then the most it will effect power is by 300 points (and that’s an extreme example). Maybe 126 points from runes if you sacrifice power runes for condition duration runes. But these are reasonable number that can be made up in other places and only a small part of the total equation that is your effectiveness in PvP.

If you are 1v2 against anything, should your reasonably expect to win? In a balanced game with equal player skill the answer should be you’ll “expect to lose”.

In 1v1 however it’s more of a rock-paper-scissors (all other things being equal like player skill and game balance). If you are 1v1 against a condition build and you have zero condition removal, expect to die.

juno.1840:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How many have you faced in WvW or T/SPvP?`at the VERY best you wont die early but you WILL die. Just because they are a condition build that doesnt mean that they cant do damage in other ways. Building just to counter Conditions mean that you wont have the power to actually kill them, taking all the possible utilities for condition removal means less for anything else.

What about in group fights? what about when you have more then one condition player unloading conditions everywhere – you think that you will be able to remove all of them, keep the party alive and kill the other team?

If so, then you either have faced against rubbish people or havent faced any of them.

So you’re saying a team of all condition builds will win 100% of the time? That’s how I read your post.

Preparing to face condition heavy opponents does not impact power unless it requires trait adjustments, and even then the most it will effect power is by 300 points (and that’s an extreme example). Maybe 126 points from runes if you sacrifice power runes for condition duration runes. But these are reasonable number that can be made up in other places and only a small part of the total equation that is your effectiveness in PvP.

If you are 1v2 against anything, should your reasonably expect to win? In a balanced game with equal player skill the answer should be you’ll “expect to lose”.

In 1v1 however it’s more of a rock-paper-scissors (all other things being equal like player skill and game balance). If you are 1v1 against a condition build and you have zero condition removal, expect to die.

Of course skill plays a part, but if to evenly skilled players went at it Mesmer Vs Condition Necro/Engi its going to be VERY hard for the Mesmer to win. If you build for the kind of condition removal you need you wont be doing that much damage and requires taking certain weapons. If you go the nuke route then you are pretty much dead if you dont kill them.

Something that i find VERY stupid – Blurred Frenzy and Distortion do NOT block condition damage. I mean if you can get hit by a multihit ability and use Frenzy/Distortion then as soon as you use them you stop getting damaged. Why cant this be the same for Conditions?

Now a simple change to this would make it bit more of a challenge. You could Frenzy the burst and have Distortion as a defense against it as well

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I have yet to meet any Necromancer or Engi that has managed to kill me 1 Vs 1, so condition damage doesnt really worry me. I have several ways to get out if it comes to that, i would rather be offensive then defensive when it comes to runes.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How many have you faced in WvW or T/SPvP?`at the VERY best you wont die early but you WILL die.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Just because they are a condition build that doesnt mean that they cant do damage in other ways. Building just to counter Conditions mean that you wont have the power to actually kill them, taking all the possible utilities for condition removal means less for anything else.

So a rabid necro does great power damage but a zerker mesmer does no dmg? Especially considering that the necro scepter auto attack will hit for like 300 power dmg.

Meanwhile, that anti-condi mesmer can still have a zerker amulet with 10-20 dom & 20 dueling. Not restricted to any weapon. 30 illusions does add about 33% to MW spikes and is about a 60% shatter dps buff but shatters aren’t the only source of mesmer damage. Main mesmer attacks and phantasms will be hitting the same or 15% harder. This is not as much of a DPS loss as you claim and the mesmer will be doing more damage than the necro while having much more defense.

Of course there is the utility issue. Blink, portal, and IoL was a very common set up for high end tpvp mesmers. Which one of those helps you kill faster? Stop saying you need to bring every condition removal that mesmers have avaible. Just 1 trait and maybe 1 utility if you want to feel extra safe. Or just runes/food with no change to traits/utilities.

Distorting reality around you doesn’t change the fact that you are bleeding. Use blurred frenzy to prevent those condition from happening to begin with.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

So a rabid necro does great power damage but a zerker mesmer does no dmg? Especially considering that the necro scepter auto attack will hit for like 300 power dmg.

Did i say Mesmers have no damage? No.

Yeah that might be the case, except for the fact thakittens not just the damage with the Scepter that fact that it causes Bleeding and Poison is more important then the actual weapon damage it does. Just like how Staff Auto isnt all about the damage but the conditions and boons.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Meanwhile, that anti-condi mesmer can still have a zerker amulet with 10-20 dom & 20 dueling. Not restricted to any weapon. 30 illusions does add about 33% to MW spikes and is about a 60% shatter dps buff but shatters aren’t the only source of mesmer damage. Main mesmer attacks and phantasms will be hitting the same or 15% harder. This is not as much of a DPS loss as you claim and the mesmer will be doing more damage than the necro while having much more defense.

So high health and no/low toughness? Yeah i am sure that will work out very well. Having to also take Utilities for Condition removal as well. So sure you might do decent damage, you might have SOME condition removal. It is not really “much more defense” being able to clear some conditions and having very low toughness.

Can you keep this condition removal up for an entire fight? You can easily be burst with conditions and quite often.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Of course there is the utility issue. Blink, portal, and IoL was a very common set up for high end tpvp mesmers. Which one of those helps you kill faster? Stop saying you need to bring every condition removal that mesmers have avaible. Just 1 trait and maybe 1 utility if you want to feel extra safe. Or just runes/food with no change to traits/utilities.

Its not all about killing things faster so “Which one of those helps you kill faster?” doesnt really matter now does it? iDisenchanter isnt exactly the strongest illusion, can easily be killed and has a (imo) ridiculous cast time though the cool down is decent the rest of it is very meh. AT has a long cool down and so does Nullfield AND requires you to stay in the field for you to get conditions removed – not always possible.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Distorting reality around you doesn’t change the fact that you are bleeding. Use blurred frenzy to prevent those condition from happening to begin with.

…What about Distortion?
That is not a “distort the area around you” that is distorting YOU.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Its not all about killing things faster so “Which one of those helps you kill faster?” doesnt really matter now does it? iDisenchanter isnt exactly the strongest illusion, can easily be killed and has a (imo) ridiculous cast time though the cool down is decent the rest of it is very meh. AT has a long cool down and so does Nullfield AND requires you to stay in the field for you to get conditions removed – not always possible.

Why do you keep bringing up utilities that I’m not talking about? I’m talking about runes/food and 1 trait. Nullfield is an option for team fights to supplement the trait/food/runes.

Most mesmer builds used to be low vit/toughness. In a condition heavy meta, high vit/low toughness is fine.

If you have 65% condition duration reduction:
Scepter auto: base 5 seconds (100% increase then 65% decrease)= 3 ticks of bleed.
IF they max condition damage(25 stacks of corruption/undead/food) (70% increase then 65% decrease)=284 bleed damage (2 ticks) per scepter auto and ~300 power dmg. If they crit? 1 second bleed for 142. Compared to power builds with some defensive gear, that isn’t dangerous.

RE: Distortion. It’s an proactive defense not reactive defense. It can stop conditions from happening to begin with. That is good enough.

Iavra.8510:

Actually, the only class that has no stability (outside of a useless mantra) is mesmer.

/edit: Could be nice if Protected Mantras gave stability while casting mantras (possibly also protection, removing the flat +400 toughness). Mantras need some buffs to be viable outside of MoP heal spamming.

We have access to some pretty nice invulnerability (F4 Distortion, possibly signet traits too) but I am pretty bummed that our access to Stability is restricted to a very short duration and generally unpopular mantra.