Guild Wars 2

BlackDevil.9268:

Staff/GS and do what exactly? Give me builds, don’t just throw kitten in and think ‘’ranged mesmer’’ is even close to viable.

There are already Staff/GS builds going around on the forum, but since you won’t even bother acknoledge they exist in any viable form:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Staff-Greatsword-Shatter-Guide/first#post4061410

That’s just one, and it’s still shatter. Explain to me why blurred frenzy is mandatory to survival there.

BlackDevil.9268:

Here, full remake of mesmer to make mesmer viable in raids. Do you think that will ever happen? No, neither do I. So let’s just stick to the point that minimal changes such such as blurred frenzy can do almost the same. What do you think arenanet would rather go for if they get mass complains?

And no, in that video my guild was refreshing food and pushing the moment they refreshed which was like the moment I was done with the burst. The reason you also have to be ahead of your guild is because you’re not mobile while your melee is.

Also, as RG we ran 50/50. We never ran ‘’melee trains’‘.
I’m not forcing anything. Shatter is a fine aoe spec. The only kitten thing that kills it is retaliation because you need blurred frenzy to survive.

You seem to base everything on what you seem to be ’’logic’’, without having any experience at all.

I’m not sure what the point of posting all of that here in this particular thread is. If you think they’re what the profession truly needs then go start a new thread, maybe then you’ll actually get enough support for the devs to look at it. Posting it here, in the depths of a complaint about one skill, is far less likely to be noticed. I’m for mesmer buffs, I just disagree the buffs should be to blurred frenzy.

I still don’t understand your obsession of being at the forefront of a fight. Maybe you just dismiss ranged options because you don’t like them, but the simple truth is that you didn’t have to be there at all. What do you even do there? Warriors and Guardians give heavy damage and cc in an area, necros have their controlling potential. What do you even do at the front of the fight that other classes cannot? Mesmers don’t have that much mobility nor the inherent sustain, and conditional damage mitigation skills like distortion are only tricks to use, not to rely on. If you base your entire playstyle on blurred frenzy as a cornerstone, obviously you’ll have problems. Mesmer support as I’ve said don’t depend on weapon skills nearly as much as their utility, so why are you forcing it to do what it’s not meant to?

When RG was in NA I fought several times against them. What I saw was that they rain a tight group. I didn’t say you just ran melee trains, in fact I said clearly that EVERY CLASS were running tight. Still it doesn’t mean that you have to melee. Again, no one made you use that blurred frenzy to chunk away your own hp on retal.

I don’t get why you seem to think blurred frenzy is the issue. Of everything you said it seems to me like you just have issues with retaliation. That alone doesn’t justify giving back a near-spammable invuln to a class that has strong skirmishing potentials in small groups, at least not without splitting the skill for different modes.

The GS/Staff shatter build is more oriented to roaming and sPvP. In zergs it lose a lot of its potential.

You need to be in melee to make shatters 100% reliable without the need of illusions. If you’ll be spending most of the time ranged, there’s no need to fully invest into Illusions, and you just become a veilbot survival mesmer.

And about weapons:
- Staff is a slow and defensive weapon with long CD’s, so not a viable option in zergs, when defense there is primary mobility and group support. It’s also taken by beginners as it’s a very easy weapon to use, but when you start getting skilled, quickly you discover its flaws.
- GS gets better as you get more ranged, but also suffers a lot with retaliation. That makes a good option for a secondary weapon set.

About BF, I think making it x4 instead of x8 would solve the problem while not affecting its performance in other game modes. It’s quite rare, as the skills slashes only 4 times, and the number also scales 4 times, but in combat reg it appears like if you did 8 hits.

I think at this point I’ll concede and say that reducing the number of strikes is a reasonable change, however invulnerability is still not.

Ansau.7326:

<snip>

About BF, I think making it x4 instead of x8 would solve the problem while not affecting its performance in other game modes. It’s quite rare, as the skills slashes only 4 times, and the number also scales 4 times, but in combat reg it appears like if you did 8 hits.

x4 would make a lot more sense and match the animation too, rather than something like x6 hits.

Shadowflare.2759:

I think at this point I’ll concede and say that reducing the number of strikes is a reasonable change, however invulnerability is still not.

wat? no i dont want the numbers of stikes reduced!!!we are asking for the reverting of that nerf as in the current meta in wvw. blurred frenzy was by no means op in wvw. then revert the nerf in wvw only and not in spvp. but in wvw its needed!

Mesmer hasn’t got the support from range of an Elementalist, the impact like warriors or guardian in melee, the control on boons like neceomancers, the same degree of stealth and movement like thieves usefull to kill backlines…se haven’t any role in zerg…only Veil and sometimes portal.
Moreover we are an hibryd profession that rely on melee and ranged aswell, we cant be full ranged or full melee in zerg because of class mechanics that promote the use of clones and phantasms that die instantly.

We need a mechanic ,not based on illusions, that helpes pur survivability and invulnerability on Blurrred Frenzy was perfect: i ask please to revert the change.

selan.8354:

Shadowflare.2759:

I think at this point I’ll concede and say that reducing the number of strikes is a reasonable change, however invulnerability is still not.

wat? no i dont want the numbers of stikes reduced!!!we are asking for the reverting of that nerf as in the current meta in wvw. blurred frenzy was by no means op in wvw. then revert the nerf in wvw only and not in spvp. but in wvw its needed!

It’s not a reduce of strikes, but more a commonsense with what you see and what is registered in combat. Damage would not be modified, neither mechanic of the skill, just you would take half of Retaliation as we take now.

Ansau.7326:

selan.8354:

Shadowflare.2759:

I think at this point I’ll concede and say that reducing the number of strikes is a reasonable change, however invulnerability is still not.

wat? no i dont want the numbers of stikes reduced!!!we are asking for the reverting of that nerf as in the current meta in wvw. blurred frenzy was by no means op in wvw. then revert the nerf in wvw only and not in spvp. but in wvw its needed!

It’s not a reduce of strikes, but more a commonsense with what you see and what is registered in combat. Damage would not be modified, neither mechanic of the skill, just you would take half of Retaliation as we take now.

It means make BF mechanic with Higher (ex: 2x) skill co efficient with lower hits (ex: 1/2)

Azo.5860:

Ansau.7326:

selan.8354:

Shadowflare.2759:

I think at this point I’ll concede and say that reducing the number of strikes is a reasonable change, however invulnerability is still not.

wat? no i dont want the numbers of stikes reduced!!!we are asking for the reverting of that nerf as in the current meta in wvw. blurred frenzy was by no means op in wvw. then revert the nerf in wvw only and not in spvp. but in wvw its needed!

It’s not a reduce of strikes, but more a commonsense with what you see and what is registered in combat. Damage would not be modified, neither mechanic of the skill, just you would take half of Retaliation as we take now.

It means make BF mechanic with Higher (ex: 2x) skill co efficient with lower hits (ex: 1/2)

Skill coefficient doesn’t need to be changed. Just what you see in the game screen and in the combat dialog will match. Instead of 8 500ish, you would see a 4 1000ish.

Do you know how BF works in combat log? Hits appears per pairs, and its impossible to get impair number of hits unless you kill the enemy with one of them, cause the next pair number hasn’t a chance to appear.

It’s a broken mechanic. A skill that slashes 4 times, but each hit counts as two in combat, and other mechanics, as block or retaliation count it twice.

As already everyting mentioned, Require of reverting/buffing BF, in WvW Mode(for Competitive Organized Sync groups [in other meaning, non-PuG Zergs]
PuG = http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/PUG Person Unaffiliated with Guild
Zerg = Big group example 20+
is coming from UNEFFICIENT of Mesmer compare to other classes in OVERALL EFFICIENT that in short saying is VEIL BOT and there is no restriction/cap to choose other classes to your group..
or the answer of this question,

- Why would u choose Mesmer in your Large scaled(Zerg) organized group rather than other classes? or in your GvG setup?

yes For VEIL cuz its the best efficient for your group compare to other classes.. so 1 or 2 with veil mesmer is enough.. in any role spec other classes making better than mesmer.. in OVERALL EFFICENT

and this minor skill BF, has a major issues excatly for Risk&Reward factor..

i wanna add more or less,

• Auras (Ex: Chaos Armor) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecRyBzCbW0
  Risk= example as it shown
• Binding Blade http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoiI_32ywY
  Risk= example as it shown

it was a random cap in my old gvg spec after short time skill got nerfed i added them why i dead to show my guild and for self criticize

video 1: from 13.7k HP i gonna down for 4.6k HP
when calls up for bomb from our guild i swap sword for shatter burst in target place
i sacrificed risk

• 9k HP
• 6 skills
  - f1 11sec, f2 23sec, f3 35sec, Blink 30sec, BF 12 sec, Leap 9sec
• 4 – 5secs
• lag (as u seen prestige doesnt up cuz of lag)
• unconnection time 4 -5 sec (i am low health and 5 more sec needed to can swap gs for can give some dps/attack)
  --—-
  reward
• almost no damage (yeah had a weakness and still that build had 2350 armor cap full power stats probably %30 cchance %65 Cdamage res is power)
• aegis removed
• 3 boons removed in total 2boon from each probably, cuz 1 shatter probably blocked or blinded shatters (from chaos armors and 14stack conf) (as u seen there was a 5 blocks that BF is just cleave attack [3foe max])

solution = Fail (i know it is a sux movement and have no arguement about was good or bad it is just an simple fail which used BF such a that various environment )
so dont burst melee train where can i get max efficient try to burst other peripheries which is common say and i say so why not roll for a thief? etc etc..

video 2: can show some how powerfull meleetrains can be.. and how BF can sux if tried on melee train.. yeah it was some short later after BF nerf so ppl hate that nerf have already some experiances that complain and yes it can not happen in dungeons etc..

• BF cant be used in every 12 sec correction is 15sec 12sec +2 1/2 sec +1/2 secs.
• Low to Mid class Health Pool (low tier survival class aka Health pool = Base Armor*Health),
  Health Pool * Burst spec/build (so if u gonna use Burst style kittenter builds, for better efficient (means if u use more offensive stats u will get higher scale efficient than other specs that will make u more glassy than other specs) *
• Environment = where wvw has open wide areas there are much challenging tight areas as walls example) = i mean Challenge of getting far from Bombs = so it requires damage negotation weapon skills as well as other classes have,
• UtilitySlot restriction: 1 utility slot is for veil all now why.. and blink as well should be mandatory exactly if u ve veil because why u in that group is your primary focus is veil in time..
• Lower efficient with GSand staff (i try to say, GS aa is just have an avarage to low tier DPS, its not more than any other AA its DPS is 0.3855 skill co-efficient to 0.67 co-efficient) example thief short bow DPS is 0.58 where it can hit always/easier +2 bounce than Spatial surges pierce +2 attack)
  phantasms have very high chance of getting killed before it hits any that still make that skill in cooldown, which class have a skill as phantasms that let u cd without any effect as skill obstructed just because of just random damage in every where in overall there re not much have aoe skills in gs compare to other classes as well, staff as well,

Where as many classes efficient become increase in zerg fights because of easier filling your skills cap 5 person, in contrast mesmer`s efficient become decreasing cuz of illusions die and lacking taging and others..

I think asking for BF to be reduced to 4 hits is your best bet. It’s reasonable, (I assume) an easy fix in terms of coding, and doesn’t make ANet backtrack on a previous nerf, which they don’t like to do.

Adding back the invuln would actually be a pretty decent nerf to mesmers in sPvP anyway since you can’t cap a point while you have invuln.

Now you just have to find a dev to listen AND act on it…Good luck with that part ^^

Shadowflare.2759:

yes doiid leave wvw and go for dungeon runs.. how dont u remember GS #4 and #2 to make clone in zerg? u dont need to be in melee trains, in walls in tunnels, while there are pleanty pugs in unorganized ly arrowing in zerker u.. give your utility to guardian he can use veil.. and u ve BF u will not need regroup for heal buffs.. k k just a joke..

- so Shadowflare ive a question to u
Why would u choose mesmer in your sync ed organized large scaled group rather than other classes? (except Veil/Portal pls) ok u say the same answer atm

- Do u think anet can do rework for game mechanic?
bahh.. anet care just about TPvP
probably nerf of BF cuz of they changed the the invuls will decap and if BF would be invul it would be decap points as well thats why they change it to evade.. who cares wvw – chaotic place..
and it was the biggest hammerful nerf to mesmer
game should make 2 balance as their with core mechanic which game designed for 5player structure mode and for large scaling mode.. but who cares.. they ve enough players to buy gems in this moment as well..

- Strategic usage of skill is meaned to me roll for another class
- how much u spent time in wvw not much important how quality/competitive u use your time in wvw.. but it shows it self sorry.. but thats oke fun casual is the another part of game..
- Plenty of things suffer from retaliation: yeaa but in terms of reward..
——————————————————————————————————————
yess yess after nerf i made a build .. first i do distortation to my self than i go as regular shatter to discard the cons of BF with Retal.. then…
———————————————
i ve a meaningful question.

Anet make Offical Competitive mode for large scale groups that can be e-sported
- make ranks,
- make places
- maybe various objectives
- make spectator mode
and understand how things happen
- make sperate balances than 5 player mechanic
—————-
kitten i need coffee feeling so high *hick
—————-
I request that mesmer is op in trolling pls NERF it!

Azo.5860:

Shadowflare.2759:

- so Shadowflare ive a question to u
Why would u choose mesmer in your sync ed organized large scaled group rather than other classes? (except Veil/Portal pls) ok u say the same answer atm

I wouldn’t. Mesmers are ran at 2 at most in our groups and only because of veils.

You don’t know much about your class then for playing in a guild in the NA, then again, people in the NA are an absolute joke skill wise. Meta is so far behind that it’s not even funny anymore.

Changes like what? Nefing aoe pull, nerfing aoe skills like blurred frenzy or the nerf on glamour builds? Yeah those surely we’re made in the past but I can’t see how that affected us positive. I forgot when we got these ‘’aoe changes’’ though. Probably you’re talking about #1 greatsword being piercing? Yeah that totally makes up for those nerfs.

You didn’t come up with that change, someone else did. You were just repeating the no for around 10 posts till you finally saw someone else making a reasonable change.

Oh believe me, I’ve been trying for at least a 1/2 year now to get mesmer changed in raids, but nothing happened yet. Doesn’t matter how many ’’creative’’ changes you give them, arenanet wont do big reworks on the profession because that will affect the profession too much or it will cost too much time/work. Small changes to gain the most effect out of it is much more ‘’anet-like’‘. There’s no reason to waste your time on massive changes because it never happened and it never will. And if you still think they will, please give me an example of a profession that was bad in raids and got a massive rework on it, rather than easy changes.

Shatter the way I play it comes out to a much more coördinated damage spike, many more immobilizes and many more boon removals. Not just damage.

BlackDevil.9268:

You don’t know much about your class then for playing in a guild in the NA, then again, people in the NA are an absolute joke skill wise. Meta is so far behind that it’s not even funny anymore.

There it is, as predicted.

BlackDevil.9268:

Changes like what? Nefing aoe pull, nerfing aoe skills like blurred frenzy or the nerf on glamour builds? Yeah those surely we’re made in the past but I can’t see how that affected us positive. I forgot when we got these ‘’aoe changes’’ though. Probably you’re talking about #1 greatsword being piercing? Yeah that totally makes up for those nerfs.

You didn’t come up with that change, someone else did. You were just repeating the no for around 10 posts till you finally saw someone else making a reasonable change.

Oh believe me, I’ve been trying for at least a 1/2 year now to get mesmer changed in raids, but nothing happened yet. Doesn’t matter how many ’’creative’’ changes you give them, arenanet wont do big reworks on the profession because that will affect the profession too much or it will cost too much time/work. Small changes to gain the most effect out of it is much more ‘’anet-like’‘. There’s no reason to waste your time on massive changes because it never happened and it never will. And if you still think they will, please give me an example of a profession that was bad in raids and got a massive rework on it, rather than easy changes.

I never claim to have “came up” with the change. In fact it was already listed in your OP albeit slightly different. I just spent all my posts addressing your request for invulnerability because that’s what you want, and that’s what I have issues with. It was fully backed with reason, just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean all I said was “nonononono”.

So you have no faith in the developers. Then there’s nothing really to say here because I don’t know what they plan to do, and no, there has not been classes that received massive reworks, but plenty have received changes over time that brought them up. Necros used to be complete jokes in the beginning of the game, look where they are now.

BlackDevil.9268:

Shatter the way I play it comes out to a much more coördinated damage spike, many more immobilizes and many more boon removals. Not just damage.

So we have different playstyles, I go for disruption/cc, and I don’t have to rely on BF to survive.

Mesmers are not in a good place right now, and it’ll take more than your BF revert to fix that. Of the options we have, bringing more aoe effects to glamour skills is , in my opinion, more likely.

I can see there is no consensus here so I will leave the conclusion that I have reached a day ago : Reduce BF strikes, no invuln.

Well you didn’t really make it hard for me. You come over as a really, really, inexperienced player. I’ve seen people rolling mesmer for 1 week coming over more intelligent than you are at the moment. I just can’t imagine you playing in a good WvW guild. I’m actually amazed you didn’t post a video of yourself with a glamour build yet and say ‘’here you can be ranged’‘. If there’s something mesmer doesnt need it’s spamming aoe’s from range to be effective, especially if it’s combined with glamour skills. Then it’s just another ‘’spam these 2 skills every 40 secs, but be worthless the rest of the time’‘. That were the glamour builds at least. If they wanna go back to that instead of builds that actually require skill to play like shatter then I seriously will lose any faith I will ever have for the team. Then again, I’ve lost most of my faith already when they started buffing the most brainless builds in game a half year ago, if not longer.

The glamour nerf was needed but the blinding befuddlement nerf wasn’t. Same goes for blurred frenzy. The cooldown nerf was needed, the change on the effect wasn’t.

I do have a question for you though; why do you stay ranged as mesmer? Do you think it’s more useful than ’’frontline’’ shatter or something else?

I wonder because I wonder what this CC is in your eyes. Chaos storm only goes in favor of the enemy looking at the CC part. A daze breaks any stun applied on the enemy. Meaning, if the enemy was just hammerstunned or any other decent duration stun you can just free him from the stun so he can dodge away from the rest of the damage. The rest of the hits will probably just get immuned because of stability spam. Anyway, CC is getting close to worthless. Immobilizes are so much better. And no, that doesnt mean chaotic interruption is super good, because that only works in combination with CC.

Also; necro’s were always usefull in raids. I don’t know how you’re coming up with them being useless?

I still also wonder which aoe buffs you were talking about;

Shadowflare.2759:

The mesmer needs only changes in traits/skills to include more RELIABLE aoe, and changes in that direction have been made in the past, so I don’t see why that’s so hard to believe.

Mesmer hasn’t got any disruptor/CC aoe in zerg, you cant consider a 35 sec CD chaos storm like a reliable CC…Mesmer actually works quite well only in group with less than 10 people because of the illusions that due instantly in any zerg. Take a staff elementalist, he has got an excellent aoe damage, incredible aoe CC and nice healing with a very good survivability with cantrips, in one build.

Sorry for necro-ing this thread, but I stumbled upon the video I was talking about in one of my posts in this thread about skills hugely affected by Retaliation in zergs:

Now compare this to BF plz

hihey.1075:

Sorry for necro-ing this thread, but I stumbled upon the video I was talking about in one of my posts in this thread about skills hugely affected by Retaliation in zergs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6zdwc7iWY

Now compare this to BF plz

yeah Damage differences between them are

Ice Storm has %320 more damage per hit than Blurred Frenzy`s per hit….
Ice storm is 0.85 skill co efficient however BF is 0.264 skill co efficient…… (made icestorm with staff)

means if my BF hit 1000 damage per Ice storm hit 3200 damage per………………

have any mistake?

Thiefs pistol whip as well have more damage %19,19 than BF

the main problem was the reta dmg not the dmg of our skills

anyway, i am taking all my comments about the fact that bf should be affected by reta back

after this thread was created i zerged a bit just to see how stuff r goin

and yep, blurred frenzying is basically a selfdestruction button in zergs

blurred frenzying hits only 3 foes ( tultip says) so it’s not suicide like engies grenades)

Anton.1769:

blurred frenzying hits only 3 foes ( tultip says) so it’s not suicide like engies grenades)

It hits each foe eight times. Grenades only come close to that Retaliation burst when using them in close combat. Otherwise the Retaliation damage with Grenades is lower because of the traveltime of the projectiles. The only thing worse is Flamethrower.

Sarcasm on : mesmer just have to hit f4 while bf…or not ….

Crossplay.2067:

The reason for the change was because Blurred Frenzy had no countermeasures beforehand. When in use, a mesmer was invincible as even environmental hazards did nothing to them .

So please tell me what are the counter measure on zerker stance / endure pain / spammy evade ?
These latests make it still possible to move and are much longer. Maybe that is why they were not nerfed

Wyrden.4713:

the main problem was the reta dmg not the dmg of our skills

anyway, i am taking all my comments about the fact that bf should be affected by reta back

after this thread was created i zerged a bit just to see how stuff r goin

and yep, blurred frenzying is basically a selfdestruction button in zergs

we are not just talking/critizing about only the main problem of BF? we all in that one of biggest/most cons of BF is retal.. and from my side in wider perspective why we say retal issue for BF is mainly about Mesmer mechanic Risk&reward and overall competition/efficient in large scale fights… requesting adaptation BF to large scale fights is just giving some dash of salt/paper (sorry if i hardly understanded eng is not my mother language)

Anton.1769:

blurred frenzying hits only 3 foes ( tultip says) so it’s not suicide like engies grenades)

yes we are not racing pee.. just we are in mesmer forums.. however maybe it requires knowladge about some mechanic about it that
blurred frenzy can hit: 8(hits) x 3(cleave attack) = 24 times can effected from Retal, Chaos armor, any of auras, and others.. and yes if u have already Ilusionary Persona trait .. than your shatters can multiplier retal and others effects u more (and shatter hits 5 person)

example: Blurred Frenzy + F1 (3 clones+Ilusionary Persona) + F3 Ilusionary Persona + F2 3 (2 clones[from Mirror Images]+ IP) Total = this one full burst style combo can trigger retal and other effects 64 times = guess that all players have 2000 power each retal can give 232 each so = almost 15k damage + other effects :P

Honestly I’m mighty fine with anything making people not want to blindly press stuff. If it’s Retaliation instead of Confusion, so be it.

Only, I think we need more and more creative ways of it. Just adding feedback damage is… meh. Increased CDs, loss of class mechanic, loss of movement, blocked mechanics, etc.

This’d also offer a lot of potential new skills to us, as the “disabling” class.

BlackDevil.9268:

Crossplay.2067:

Curunen.8729:

BF is one skill – plenty of other skills that can cause you to eat retal damage.

Multi-hit attacks are where retaliation truly shines. If you nerf it here, warriors will want it nerfed for 100-blades and thieves for Unload. Again, Retaliation would lose its meaning as a countermeasure.

I would agree with you if we had other forms of being useful against blobs, but sadly mesmer has to rely on immunty’s and evades. Not like warrior who can facetank everything with 30k hp, massive armor and good stability upkeep. Then also, 100b hits much harder, hits slower to easier to react to the damage and as mentioned before, is not a requirement to cast to bomb with the melee.
As for unload, thats a single target skill. You don’t get affected by multiple retal damage.

As for those who say I can’t look at if they have retal on or not; in an environment with 25v50, you’re not gonna check every person if they have retaliation on or not cause 90% will have it on, especially melee. If there would be other ways of applying reasonable amount of damage against blobs i’d love to hear it.

I can kill someone who facetanks me on a warrior I cant kill someone who evades my attacks constantly and hides in stealth*while still being able to cast damaging skills(weapon phantasms)* so please send all the non stealth abuse classes at me.. they are actually fair! at least thief needs to get near me.

if its a l2p issue please tell me how to track down a Mesmer who unloads all their clones from range then pops stealth the second I get near them teleports and resets constantly combine this with chaos shield and storm and the clone spam from the staff forcing me to hit their clones I would love to hear it

ps im not on a warrior so I cant just go kitten hammer stun lockdown yay I winsies….

ozzy.8059:

BlackDevil.9268:

Crossplay.2067:

Curunen.8729:

BF is one skill – plenty of other skills that can cause you to eat retal damage.

Multi-hit attacks are where retaliation truly shines. If you nerf it here, warriors will want it nerfed for 100-blades and thieves for Unload. Again, Retaliation would lose its meaning as a countermeasure.

I would agree with you if we had other forms of being useful against blobs, but sadly mesmer has to rely on immunty’s and evades. Not like warrior who can facetank everything with 30k hp, massive armor and good stability upkeep. Then also, 100b hits much harder, hits slower to easier to react to the damage and as mentioned before, is not a requirement to cast to bomb with the melee.
As for unload, thats a single target skill. You don’t get affected by multiple retal damage.

As for those who say I can’t look at if they have retal on or not; in an environment with 25v50, you’re not gonna check every person if they have retaliation on or not cause 90% will have it on, especially melee. If there would be other ways of applying reasonable amount of damage against blobs i’d love to hear it.

I can kill someone who facetanks me on a warrior I cant kill someone who evades my attacks constantly and hides in stealth*while still being able to cast damaging skills(weapon phantasms)* so please send all the non stealth abuse classes at me.. they are actually fair! at least thief needs to get near me.

if its a l2p issue please tell me how to track down a Mesmer who unloads all their clones from range then pops stealth the second I get near them teleports and resets constantly combine this with chaos shield and storm and the clone spam from the staff forcing me to hit their clones I would love to hear it

ps im not on a warrior so I cant just go kitten hammer stun lockdown yay I winsies….

I think you need to read the thread one more time. And ask yourself these questions while you do it.

1. Was the topic about small scale roaming, 1v1’s or big organized group play like ZvZ and GvG. (Hint: its not number 1 and 2)

2. If you got the first one correct (which i think you did) how many phantasms do you think you can keep up in that fight (again its not number 1 or 2 in question 1)

3. Can you do glamour damage from away and then midlessly stealth away from the fight and watch your group win. (I think you get that one)

4. When you placed your veil, which is mainly why you are there, what are you suposed to do now? (Hint its not “evade your attacks constantly and hide in stealth*while still being able to cast damaging skills(weapon phantasms)”, because they don’t work) oops giveaway for question 3 right there.

In conclusion, please read the thread before commenting.

@ Carighan, me or other competitive gvg or large scale players.. as well wanna Challenging game which means fun, no hack&slash game as diablo..
if i understand correct u mean confusion and retal are similar things..
the biggest differences between them are,

• if u would trigger confusion with BF it will be 1 tick however retal 8 ticks x if cleaved 3 times
• confusion is more capable for track than retal
• however confusion can stack, retal not but conditions efficient is much more lower than power efficient.. (aka large scale enivorement/group composition) more easy to counter
• retal have much more easier access than confusion..
• retal effect area is much more wider than confusion..
  they were some what i remembered in first, the reason i gave, wrote them.. retal is not easier counter measure as u think.. in large scale fights… however periphery huntering role spec have differ glasses from it with no spec ing to multi targets.

yeap we should be creative, however it requires objective descriptions/details to minor/major things in wider perspectives.. ofc i can not make wall of texts for all details&and theories.. and probably u didint understand why i add that damage.. and dont forget here is an open area everybody read here..

@ ozzy and general
in my opinion (imo) what u say sounds just can fit to pvp or wvw-roaming/small scale environments/modes,
but in large scale fights(zergs) or in gvg things become different.. why, in organized large scaled groups or in gvg oriented groups,
facetanks = melee train.. melee train = compact classes who are mostly efficient to can take massive damage on them(tanking) and and try to give opportunity to better efficients to other peripheries as mostly necros, eles or make better group position mobility, ofc there can be have bombers (bursters) or DPSers(as gs war) in melee train still they should have capable of taking high damage on themself..
[is the very dominant thing, IF U DIE your efficient become ZERO (0)..]
u can not kill who facetanks u.. because who are in melee train means kitten already oriented to absorb bursts/spikes, or massive dps on them while not losing mobility.. u can just support your group to let enemy`s train to die.. and if some foe is evading u.. probably,

• if u re already in melee train he is Not evading YOU he is evading all of you [dont take it personal] or evade for try to do something tham survival spec.. (guess he is mesmer),,
  - he is evading(as dodge or blink) to not captured by enemy`s trains to be bursted, or become inv to can trigger his PU while getting out of combat or far from melee train..
  - if he is Blurr Frenzying,
  1)example, he is using it defansively [ there is another cons of Bf, which is mostly skipping, while channeling BF with 2.30sec it can let u leave in more concentrated bombs, which will require from u to use blink, or dodge, however dodge can still risky, it is risky because in 0.30 mili sec u can get CC as stun or knockdown in concencrated bomb(burst) which will/can cause you to die.. however another thing is as we used to see pleanty GS guardians.. they can easily interupt your Blurred Frenzy Channel with their Binding Surge GS#5 pull skill *verification Require[maybe there can already have an unseen-buff, havent tested it since long time] .. which can let u die.. and another biggest cons of BF is giving u challenge/disadvantage to make u position comfortable, lacking mobility, with your group compostion.. and ofc Retal and other triggers on per hit things.. which can give challenge to your timings as time wrap order or veil..
  2) for offensively.. burst with your sync group to point, means being in to concentrated heavy damage to focused point.. can highly fail(means have high RIsk) cuz of retal and on hit effects.. where as other classes have not the same risk in returns of reward.. and.. (to be contunied)

• phantasms ? :S in the place where u can have random generated high DPS where there is from 0 chance to 1 hit can atack phantasm [is there any of other classes have kind of mechanic as mesmer that his important skill can be obstructed as in example of using it in large scale fights] pls dont tell phantasm.. in zergs.. or yeah wanna skirmish out of your compact group as periphery hunting as in GvG.. yeah sure.. dont forget to get your veil.. yes have veil ofc use best efficint to ypur group.. not have veil? what u doing here wanna perip hunting ? why not thief? wanna melee pressure bahh… already told no room for mesmer if not have veil.. )ofc it is true, your not better in any role/spec from other classessssss.. take your veil thats it..

Let competitive players to use Mesmer who use as a core class war guard necro or ele..
and ask their opinions about mesmer in competitive way and in overall spec efficient…

to be continued…

bahh maybe just empty talks.. is there any news about OFFICAL competitive gaming with Large Scale matches form any Devs? as GvG… ? yeah yeah mesmer=veil sorry,, gw2=pvp in comptetitive,,

ohh BF nerfed, Reason ? and nerf to ALL MODES in gw2,, in pvp was ppl complaining about BF? or is it lacking capable of doing BF with Inv and give it unrespond to Decap
effect?

SHould we be creative on BF in wvw(in organized large scale fighting)? or it will be empty breath..

ohh sorry nerf mesmer she is OP in WvW let them supportive.. where there is no cap to compisition your large scale group.. omg.. would like know what their in mind..? (esporting tpvp.. influence.. gems tp.. money.. shining[items] wars 1… or buy more gems guys to let anet more efficient to can capable of make offical competitive areas with guild orientations (not just for 5 players structed 1 type comptetive game, maybe GvG as which can be used guild composition to accomplish to being officaly best..)

sorry for messy post.. but if i was not messy i would not touch here probably,,, :P

Reviving this thread as it seems to have died from retaliation.

Jokes aside this is a very important point and I would like some developers to read this thread and see what they think about the current state of the WvW raid mesmer, not the PvP mesmer or the WvW roaming mesmer.