Guild Wars 2

cyyrix.6105:

PU = shadow arts thief = perplexity anything = terrormancer = healing signet warrior

Is PU cheesy? Sure. Unfortunately there is so much cheese in this game (especially in wvw) that it’s hard to consider anything cheesy at all.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter – 95% of the people that whine about PU are wvw roamers playing one of the above-mentioned specs.

I can name at least 2-3 counter specs to anything you mentioned. There is only one exception, guess what it is?
Anyway I’m out of this conversation as it’s going nowhere and PU users will not stop using it unless it’s nerfed. Oh the cries when it will happen!

Do not raise the cooldown of the prestige – it will make the torch totally unappealing for non-PU builds.

Better choice would be to tone down the boon refresh or possibly move cleansing conflagration, though I have no idea where.

Better to fix the focus so it is a viable 1vmany alternative again

hihey.1075:

cyyrix.6105:

PU = shadow arts thief = perplexity anything = terrormancer = healing signet warrior

Is PU cheesy? Sure. Unfortunately there is so much cheese in this game (especially in wvw) that it’s hard to consider anything cheesy at all.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter – 95% of the people that whine about PU are wvw roamers playing one of the above-mentioned specs.

I can name at least 2-3 counter specs to anything you mentioned. There is only one exception, guess what it is?
Anyway I’m out of this conversation as it’s going nowhere and PU users will not stop using it unless it’s nerfed. Oh the cries when it will happen!

Shadow arts thief confirmed.

I have a hardest time beating a PU mesmer in wvw than in spvp. I think PU is quite balanced in this mode, but with the power creep in wvw, it becomes a real problem for me.
There’s also a lack of knowledge coming from other classes regarding PU. If I destroy anyone in spvp with my shatter build, people just throw at me the “cheesy PU” excuse for their lose.

I remember the time when mesmers where feared/respected for their skills and burst dmg. I remember being a big fangirl of Osicat, Seven Mirror and Flimp. Now, all I see is people dispising us because of PU.
No more “wow”, only “cheesy” and “broken”.

It’s disheartening.

You should also remember when other builds weren’t nerfed and should also remember people complaining about shatter for being OP.

If you want to flick your n-ts and show everyone how “skilled” you are, then by all means spec something other than PU…announce it in map chat…and then screenshot/video your excellence and post it here. We all want to hear about how awesome you are and obviously you want to share.

Now back to reality, I’m sorry, PU right now is your only chance in hell of going toe to toe to with a thief or warrior as a roamer. Part of “skill” is knowing what tools you have, what tools other classes have and specing for it. There’s a reason why PU is popular. It’s not a crutch like everyone is making it out to be. When you’re going against other classes that can reset their burst combos over and over and over again, I don’t think it’s too OP for a squishy class like us to have a counter to that to even out the fight.

This is one of those “Gun vs Sword” arguments.

Back when everyone had a sword, things were cool and there was an obvious difference in skill between a skilled swordsman and some guy with a sharp blade. Then guns came around and suddenly all the hours of technique, discipline, and practice of the swordsman was rendered virtually irrelevent because any moron could walk up right infront of him and pop him in the chest. Bam, dead swordsman and guns OP. Theres still a difference between a sharpshooter and any moron with a gun, but either one of the two has an advantage over the swordsman.

PU is kind of similar, in skilled hands you can do great things that you simply cannot do with other builds. But it also makes it so that anyone can pick up Mesmer and be nigh unstoppable in a matter of a day. PU builds are easy to use, easy to learn, and easy to be effective with, but of the three the most important thing to the player is “easy to be effective.” This is both good and bad.
Its good for obvious reasons. Its a fun to play build that feels satisfying running around like a boss. We play games to have fun and the build is fun as hell while not being too dominant. It’s the best roamer, the worst PvE spec, and somewhere in the middleground for tPvP depending on the level of the team. Its bad because it lowers the “prestige” (nyukk nyukk) of the class but also because it DOES become a crutch. Because of PU there no need to explore or innovate for both new and older players alike. A newer Mesmer doesn’t have to learn all of the mesmer mechanics and grows much slower and less informed as a player, and an older player feels no competition or pressure to explore new options.

For me, it’s the latter that I respect this thread. Whether or not PU is OP doesn’t matter, what matters is that we have more diversity than just one playstyle. Theres a lot of different players here who all bring different experiences to the table, I think that if anyone could put their heads together and explore something new it’d be us. (New doesn’t have to be BETTER, but something thats as viable as PU)

So lets break down a PU build and see what makes it work defensively(Taking Osi’s Hidden Cat as my example):

• Blink
  Blink, especially when traited, is easily one of the best disengages we have. Likely a staple of any roaming build along with Decoy.
• Stealth – 3 forms of stealth, Protection/Aegis/Regen on stealth.
  I think stealth is the biggest factor of the PU build; not the buffs. The buffs are incredibly good and are what pushes the build to “OP” but I don’t feel it’s a -necessary- trait as long as we maintain the stealths. My question is, do you feel 3 stealths absolutely required?
• 30 Chaos – 300 toughness & Boon Duration / Protection on Regen (essentially protection every 15 secs) / Regen every 75% HP
  The 30 Chaos is essentially the build’s traited defense. I don’t think we need PU to achieve a good hefty defense as long as we have ways to maintain high levels of the protection buff and an adequate number of stealths.

Besides all of the defensive stats, Osicat’s build is traited for phantasm damage, primarily for the iZerker. The other traits are pretty standard for most builds. This tells me that if the defenses could be matched, there is more build diversity for roaming builds that we allow ourselves to believe. I feel like the Inspiration tree’s synergies haven’t been fully explored, and that we have other ways of maintaining a strong defense by combining stealths and teleports beyond PU.

It’s unfair to present this as a “Gun vs Sword” argument as PU trades offense for defense and the analogy makes it seem it increases offense without losing anything. It’s actually more like a “Run naked with a gun” vs “Use a sword and a bulletproof vest” argument. The “Run naked with a gun” being the only respectable way to play for some people.

Nausicca.6038:

I have a hardest time beating a PU mesmer in wvw than in spvp. I think PU is quite balanced in this mode, but with the power creep in wvw, it becomes a real problem for me.
There’s also a lack of knowledge coming from other classes regarding PU. If I destroy anyone in spvp with my shatter build, people just throw at me the “cheesy PU” excuse for their lose.

I remember the time when mesmers where feared/respected for their skills and burst dmg. I remember being a big fangirl of Osicat, Seven Mirror and Flimp. Now, all I see is people dispising us because of PU.
No more “wow”, only “cheesy” and “broken”.

It’s disheartening.

The stupid thing is PU was always there. An extra second of stealth without a boon per second (1 random boon, yes). The same thing that is possible now was possible back then. So what’s the big deal? It’s not PU, nor the class, rather it’s the condition meta. You could shake a fist at the power approach too I suppose, but nothing’s changed in the area of being burst down either. At that point you might aswell point at all the high stealth, high burst thieves that’ve always been there, because it’s all the same thing.

Why are mesmers complaining about our own trait that’s not broken and makes roaming more appealing? Every other class has major problems with their traits and how they flow with their utilities/weapons (except for thief and guardian) but you people insist on complaining about a good trait because it’s newbie friendly and “sheds a bad light on mesmers”. Most of the players who cry about it don’t even know what PU does.

Also saying something should be nerfed just because you don’t like when other people play it is not a reason to nerf it, that’s just childish; and saying that there is no counter-play to it is utter bs. PU doesn’t make you a god, it makes you hard to kill. Darnacus gave a few specs that do well against PU so I’m not going to repeat it.

I share Osicat’s sentiments with this actually. It’s not broken. If you don’t like it don’t use it.

Wow. The last time I checked this thread a few days ago, there were two replies. Now there’s a ton!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

For me, it’s the latter that I respect this thread. Whether or not PU is OP doesn’t matter, what matters is that we have more diversity than just one playstyle. Theres a lot of different players here who all bring different experiences to the table, I think that if anyone could put their heads together and explore something new it’d be us. (New doesn’t have to be BETTER, but something thats as viable as PU)

Thank you Chaos. When I started the thread, I had no intention of it being “is PU OP or not?” I guess people just read the one thing I said about PU being OP and ignored the rest. I’m just tired of playing PU when I know there are so many viable options out there that can make me a better player, and I had intended for this thread to be about other methods of surviving while roaming, but alas, the community has to argue about balance.

Thanks to the few of you who started your posts with “@op”.

Added an edit to the op about this.

kaikalii.4198:

Wow. The last time I checked this thread a few days ago, there were two replies. Now there’s a ton!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

For me, it’s the latter that I respect this thread. Whether or not PU is OP doesn’t matter, what matters is that we have more diversity than just one playstyle. Theres a lot of different players here who all bring different experiences to the table, I think that if anyone could put their heads together and explore something new it’d be us. (New doesn’t have to be BETTER, but something thats as viable as PU)

Thank you Chaos. When I started the thread, I had no intention of it being “is PU OP or not?” I guess people just read the one thing I said about PU being OP and ignored the rest. I’m just tired of playing PU when I know there are so many viable options out there that can make me a better player, and I had intended for this thread to be about other methods of surviving while roaming, but alas, the community has to argue about balance.

Thanks to the few of you who started your posts with “@op”.

Added an edit to the op about this.

Actually according to your original post your sole motivation for searching for new builds is PU being OP (no one said you where asking if it was OP or not). I’m always more than happy to see new builds and play styles. Please lets find more! But don’t pretend this thread is just a “lets think of new builds” when it really is about “lets get away from PU”.

You say you know there are many viable options out there. I guess you don’t know them yet. Or if you do, please show them to us! And let the players use them because they like them. Not because PU is bad and they have to stop using it.

Malakin.2809:

kaikalii.4198:

Wow. The last time I checked this thread a few days ago, there were two replies. Now there’s a ton!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

For me, it’s the latter that I respect this thread. Whether or not PU is OP doesn’t matter, what matters is that we have more diversity than just one playstyle. Theres a lot of different players here who all bring different experiences to the table, I think that if anyone could put their heads together and explore something new it’d be us. (New doesn’t have to be BETTER, but something thats as viable as PU)

Thank you Chaos. When I started the thread, I had no intention of it being “is PU OP or not?” I guess people just read the one thing I said about PU being OP and ignored the rest. I’m just tired of playing PU when I know there are so many viable options out there that can make me a better player, and I had intended for this thread to be about other methods of surviving while roaming, but alas, the community has to argue about balance.

Thanks to the few of you who started your posts with “@op”.

Added an edit to the op about this.

Actually according to your original post your sole motivation for searching for new builds is PU being OP (no one said you where asking if it was OP or not). I’m always more than happy to see new builds and play styles. Please lets find more! But don’t pretend this thread is just a “lets think of new builds” when it really is about “lets get away from PU”.

You say you know there are many viable options out there. I guess you don’t know them yet. Or if you do, please show them to us! And let the players use them because they like them. Not because PU is bad and they have to stop using it.

Perhaps you are right that I am a bit unclear. What I really want it some roaming builds that focus on teleports and/or interrupts. Now that I think of it, I probably should have just stated that from the beginning. Teleports are already used in every build, but they can be enhanced. Interrupts as a play style, while prominent in PvP, are almost absent from WvW roaming. I wanted the community to help me think of some ideas to incorporate both of these ideas into a single build or build type in a way that is both fun and viable. Thank you for pointing out my inconsistencies.

DISCLAIMER:

I am playing without PU, or stealth in my utilities (only MI as a stealth) since October 2013. I am not doing it because “PU OP, OMG NO HONOR”, but because I wanted to see something different and I believed mesmers need all three utility skills for something else than personal stealth. I am not doing it for honor, I do not look down at people using stealth and PU, not doing it to show “OMG I PRO U NUB”. I simply do it as I have fun with it and my partymates like it more than when I had Decoy. I am mostly a WvW roamer, with PvE mixins and zerg mixins when my wife commands in WvW :-).

TOPIC:

I am playing mostly interrupt or lockdown builds, party builds (as in: focusing on 1-5 vs 1-10 group play), which use as their main defense mobility, control or mix of both. Ah, and pressure – if you pound at them hard, they are trying to escape more than to hit you back. So I use DPS equipment.


Builds which worked for me in this playstyle so far (note, there is a lot I haven’t tested yet; for now I always take Bountiful Interruption and traited Focus)(note2: they are not perfectly optimized)(note3: I did not make them 100% myself, might have inspired by this forums, tweaked in our parties…).

0-30-20-20-0, Sw/F + Sc/P – build focus: 5 seconds of lockdown (Signet of Domination into Pistol 5, and you can detonate a Curtain).
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgIQRAsd7alwzKoHTToGb9IiJFEnvdSB0tcleYb52FC-jkCBYjDimiI00HBKzkRjNRFoMsIasqkYKXER1WzDr2iORyAUNGA-w
If you want to see how it plays, it is on my YT channel codenamed “Dancing Delusion”.

0-30-20-20-0, Sw/F + GS – built around Furious Interruption, has some neat burst options.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgIQNAsdRlwzKoHTToGb9IiJFEnvdSB0tcleYbXItB-jkCBYjCiUEg0HAZmMasJqAlhFRjVlET5iIq2aeY1W0JSGgqxA-w
If you want to see how it plays, it is on my YT channel codenamed “Prancing Papillon”.

0-20-30-20-0, Sw/F + St – built around Hydromancy and +conDuration food for control conditions in Berserker build. A successful experiment, though it is strange. I mean, the damage is there, but I don’t fully understand why it works so well. Yet.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgIQNAsdWlwzKoHTTqGb9IipHBnvJcnUAdLXJF22FC-jkCBYjCiUEgEIBKzkRjNRFoMsIasqkYKXER1WzDr2iORSBAzYA-w
If you want to see how it plays, it is on my YT channel codenamed “Entangling Elegance”.

I strongly suggest Elegance > Papillon >>> Delusion, btw, if you want to run them. All work for me, but Elegance has less weak spots and Papillon has much more damage. Delusion is the easiest to counter (Scepter damage in power build is simply a bit weak-ish and Sc3 makes you “not dodge” and “not turn around” too much).


If you want to be able to reliably win 1 vs N, don’t go this way. I can win 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 (or 2 vs 5), but it requires enemies who I can simply strongly outplay and I cannot make too many mistakes. You won’t be able to drop target, though if they are slow and do not have ranged weapons, well, it will be hilarious ;-). On the other hand, there will be 1 vs 1s you will lose with no reliable way to escape (not necessarily against thieves; properly timed Signet of Domination does wonders, especially in Prancing Papillon. Mobility warriors are more of a problem, as you can’t drop target easily). What I mean is, there are more efficient ways to play a mesmer and better builds out there.

If you are interested in seeing other viable (not BEST, viable) builds which are really fun to play if you do not want to win every battle, this can be fun :-).

Now, I am everything BUT the best mesmer out there. And yet I can efficiently be a solo/party roamer without using stealth. I might have been more efficient if I used it, but neither me nor my partymates care :-).


In case anyone answers my post, sorry; I am unlikely to answer quickly (I am a constant lurker, but I am forum shy).

EDIT:
Corrected Elegance link; it uses Null Field, not iDisenchanter (for more Chaos Armour uptime).

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem for me personally Osicat, is that the build is a crutch. I’m going to sound kinda condescending here for a second but I used to have so much respect for you as a mesmer player. But seeing even you resorting to using such a crutch of a build is disheartening.

Let me define my reasoning if you will. The mesmer as a class is pretty complex. The way that illusions are tied to a target, how shatters work, the dependence on positioning and map awareness in order to survive; All staples of the mesmer class. Now look at PU in it’s current state, namely condi PU. The basis of the build is “stealth, dodge, stealth, dodge, block (scepter), stealth, dodge.” The issue is this breeds poor play. You don’t need to actively dodge attacks, because you always have aegis or protection. The players that this build has spawned embarrass me, and I find no guilt in putting them in their place in wvw.
Power PU is slightly better in the sense that they don’t have all the armor (as some build zerker to benefit the phantasms.) My point still stands that the passive nature still breeds poor play.

The mesmer isn’t meant to be this passive playstyle, and it certainly doesn’t deserve the reputation that it’s gaining as this easy-mode class. Everytime I see a mesmer with full condi food, scepter/torch my heart just sinks.

No disrespect intended…but….

I think you need to get down off your highhorse…..First off I agree, playing “Full Dire PU” is pretty cheesy….But I am not going to start casting stones at people that choose to…Nor is it going to “make my heart sink” when I see someone running it…TBH I think shatter is one of the top ten cheese builds in this game, always have. I mean to me its all: Poop clones, stunlock, shatter, profit, if that doesn’t work then you’re too glass to survive and run back and try again..BORING..But then again it may be more than that to some people…But I do not judge them.

If you want to know why Mesmers got an EZmode rep, its because it is a very good 1v1 class, be it Condi/Mantra/shatter/PU Power/whatever. The Mesmer shines in 1v1’s on a good player….People don’t like losing 1v1’s, so they come here and kitten about it. PU is the chosen complaint because some mouthbreather decided that Aegis and protection were “OP”. I got news for you, any time I have came across the “_ YOU PU MESMER” ragers, I have promptly dropped PU and redueled said player…NEVER has it made a noticeable difference in the over all outcome. Does that mean that PU isn’t helpful? NOPE, it just means that the outcome was already decided (in a conglomeration of Rock/Paper/Scissors and player skill level), so PU was merely “icing”. Where PU does benefit a Mesmer greatly is in roaming, I think it allows you the survivability to play a class with light armor that does not have as much mobility as the Thief/Warrior/Ele/etc.

I have news for you, don’t let people talk you up to the point where you think you are “too leet”, because I can assure you, you probably aren’t. Let’s not sit so high atop the mountain that we try to pass judgement, or ridiculously worse: lets not think that because some kid running what we think is “cheese” is ruining “OUR” reputation….