Guild Wars 2

Updated Build due to feedback: http://tinyurl.com/mecnsa5

So I had this idea. And even though it got nerfed a little in the April patch, I still wanted to throw something together with it and see what people though, maybe try it out and see how effective it was. Retaliation, that is.

I’m currently playing a Gs+Sw/Sw Shatter build, which is pretty fun. I’ve played Mesmer since the game came out, and I still enjoy it. Lots of varying playstyles. I’ve been getting kind of bored with just Shatter spam lately though, and I WvW a LOT, and know Retaliation is the bane of a lot of people’s builds, especially in WvW. So I came up with this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJARWl0npRtlpxPNcrNiuBZ6K0hPi6h8jlUqAA-TVSBABBu/gRK/wR9HEM/JhSwFuAAa8EAA4QAknuARBlRA-w

The idea is basically: 100% Retaliation uptime through a few different means. Those being:

- Mind Wrack (4.25 seconds)
- Confusing Cry (7.25 seconds)
- Mimic (after absorbing, this blocks all attacks, and you gain 4.25 seconds for each Block, to a maximum of 5 duration stacks. So basically until Mimic is up again)
- Chaos Storm (4.25 seconds – finally you don’t have to be upset when swiftness doesn’t proc)

While I know Retaliation just got nerfed, and does 66% of it’s normal damage in PvP/WvW, with around 2200 Power with this gear, and assuming no stacks of Might (highly unlikely), it’s still going to hit between 250-300 damage. That’s still pretty significant.

Now, the kicker here is that the build doesn’t rely on Retaliation. It plays very much like a normal Shatter build, just without Deceptive Evasion. You’ve got double reduced CD on staff clones, and a 6.5 second Mirror Blade though, so I don’t see it being too slow to Shatter. With the Toughness/Vit on it, it’s a pretty tanky as hell build, that anyone is going to have a tough time chewing through, and thus, doing even more damage to themselves in the process.

The only downfall right now is it has absolutely 0 condition removal. The fix for this, of course, is to take the 2 points for block ret and move it into curing conditions on healing. Easy fix, but you lose that Mimic Ret boost. Even without that though, I still think the uptime is pretty reliable.

Is Retaliation still enough of a force to cause people to crumble before you if they can’t 1-2 shot you? We also have confusion stacks to take into consideration with these shatters too. They’re nothing to call home about, but 100 damage per stack is still significant. With a few confusion stacks and ret up, they’re doing upwards of 500 damage PER HIT to themselves.

Thoughts? Still tweaking ideas to input is appreciated.

Your kinda forcing the shatter build on this, two blocks with Mimic do as much as a Cry.

I’d knock illusions to 2 and throw the 4 into Inspirations, this does 3+ things. First Phantasms get initial retal. Second your get your Condition Removal on heal. Third you get almost constant regen and protection(chaos procs when you gain regen). 4th you get faster scepter skills and make back the condition damage ‘loss’.

Which brings me to the second thing. I suggest using Scepter/Off-Hand Sword or maybe even torch. The blocks from Scepter give 5 torment which can cause them to ‘bleed’ out pretty nicely as they take ret and move(as long as you keep moving). Off-Hand Sword can give you another block and a strong phantasm or Torch can give you a phantasm that gives Ret to those around plus confusion, burning, blind and a stealth.

Just some ideas…

I see your point, but the problem with knocking Illusions to 2, is that all your shatters suddenly have much longer cooldowns, and do less for you. Thus making Bountiful Disillusionment kind of a waste.

We could say it’s a waste anyways and the points are better spent elsewhere, but then we’ve just come full circle to some other build that people already use/know works. Which is boring, and what I’m avoiding. I want new playstyle, mechanics.

Dropping maybe 2 from Illusions and using Heals remove condi, plus phantasms have Ret as well might be a good idea. I lose might on shatter and some CD reduction/IP.

Just some thoughts -

Take a look at pyroatheist’s immortal build. It was heavily retaliation based and although was nerfed out of viability when Anet nerfed vengeful images (inspiration 1), it contains good information on setting up a build where retaliation is a key damage source. Just a good reference for ideas.

One of the biggest things to take away is using Sw/F so you can get retaliation “for free” so to speak from the leap/light field combo. The uptime from that alone is impressive. If you don’t want to do that, the double block suggestion is good and usually enough to keep retaliation on you most of the time. With mimic in there it’s almost overkill.

From there, having an iDefender at your side is invaluable, as it will tank a lot of damage for you (thus dishing out retaliation), especially with your armor as high as you have it. Then when it dies, further retaliation damage will be inflicted by you. It works even better if you can get retaliation on the iDefender, which will double the retaliation damage while it is alive (retal from iDefender itself AND from you simultaneously). You can take vengeful images, which is good if you want to go into inspiration anyway, but not worth it to spec just for that.

(Hint: you could also try your hand at using signet of inspiration to share your retal with iDefender, though it can be tricky)

I don’t think bountiful disillusionment is going to do much for you in this build. Your mind wracks don’t really have a purpose other than to get you retal and they’re not going to be damaging much. You can easily get retaliation from so many other sources as well, a few of which you listed. Confusing cry also seems wasted since you have so many other retal sources, further limiting the usefulness of BD.

Hmm… good points skcamow. Pyro’s immortal build was what sort of inspired this new take on Retaliation actually, so I’ll have to have a better look at his playstyle guide for it.

My biggest concern is still being able to do damage. Thus, not relying fully on Retaliation to kill themselves. If people are smart enough and taking Retaliation damage too much, I don’t want them to be able to just stop attacking and walk away, and have me do nothing to chase them. (PU Condi’s problem sometimes.)

What about something like this then:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsdWl0npStlpxPNcrVSrhYqXn6Iq7euMpCUqNA-TFSBABBu/gRK/wR9HEM/JhSQNOCA5pJAgDBgogyI-w

It keeps mimic for the block on retaliation but also could take advantage of the Temp curtain leap combo that I wasn’t aware of. While also giving me good damage shatters (albeit low crit) to still dish out some damage.

I thought about Signet of Inspiration but didn’t like the long CD/randomness of buffs.

I could Chaos Storm my iDefender in hopes it gets Retal as well, for double retal damage when it’s up.

Basically, here’s the overall problem with this build.

You’re going to do no damage. Yes, you have 2200 power, you’re still not going to do damage. Power damage is incredibly reliant on crit power and crit chance to actually have oomph behind it. I played my Immortal build for months, and when I was fully buffed I’d have around 2400 power. Even with that much power though, I still didn’t do very much direct damage. I relied on the retaliation transfer with iDefender to actually kill things.

Anet killed my build when they effectively removed the trait vengeful images. This build is really almost identical to mine with just a couple tweaks. You don’t have any more damage oriented stats, and you also don’t have the retaliation transfer with iDefender. This build won’t work for the same reasons as mine.

I understand it’s not going to be a huge bursty spec, but with the gear and traits listed below now:

http://tinyurl.com/qeldphu

In sword/focus, I’ve still got 22% crit chance without fury, which isn’t terrible (42% with). 2200 AP without Bloodlust stacks. My Mind Wrack 3x still shows up at 1440 damage. That’s literally only like 100 damage lower than my full shatter build. The survivability on this build is WAY higher. Especially with Mimic/Condition clearing on heal.

And I now have access to Retal through:
- Mimic Block
- Chaos Storm
- Confusing Cry
- Leap/Swap temporal curtain

I’d like if Curtain was a lower CD, but not sure what I could sacrifice for the extra 2 points. As well, won’t Phantasmal Defender give me double retaliation (for the first 5 seconds at least), since he will have it up, and I’ll have it too? Thus, the damage that’s redirected to him triggers it twice?

Suggestions/Discussion appreciated still. Constructive stuff to help develop the build though, not just “it’s not as good as <meta>”.

Eucalyptus.9784:

In sword/focus, I’ve still got 22% crit chance without fury, which isn’t terrible (42% with). 2200 AP without Bloodlust stacks. My Mind Wrack 3x still shows up at 1440 damage. That’s literally only like 100 damage lower than my full shatter build. The survivability on this build is WAY higher. Especially with Mimic/Condition clearing on heal.

22% crit chance is incredibly low. That’s about a third of what any solid damage build has. If you could maintain reliable fury, then it would be a little better. However, you can’t. 1440 damage for a 3 clone mind wrack is so low it’s not even funny. A normal shatter build will do ~8k-12k damage with a 3 clone wrack.

Eucalyptus.9784:

I’d like if Curtain was a lower CD, but not sure what I could sacrifice for the extra 2 points. As well, won’t Phantasmal Defender give me double retaliation (for the first 5 seconds at least), since he will have it up, and I’ll have it too? Thus, the damage that’s redirected to him triggers it twice?

pDefender will give double retal for 5 seconds, yes. 5 seconds isn’t enough time to really do anything, and that’s why building for the retal transfer simply isn’t viable. That’s basically just enough time for him to spawn, run to the target, and actually use the damage transfer skill.

Eucalyptus.9784:

Suggestions/Discussion appreciated still. Constructive stuff to help develop the build though, not just “it’s not as good as <meta>”.

I’m not saying it’s not as good as meta, I’m saying it’s just not good. Look, if a tanky retal based build was viable, I would be running it right now, but Anet neutered that type of build for mesmer. What you’ve got here will be tanky and do pretty much no damage whatsoever.

The 1440 is per clone, and that’s just the base that the skill calculator says. They usually hit 2k~ each clone when it says that on my other build. So that’s still a 6-8k non-crit shatter, more if you include me with IP.

I could swap out the Staff for a Scepter/Sword combo for double block to further the Retal stacking, but also throw a solid torment and iSwordsman in.

I’m really not seeing the lack of damage compared to any other build I’d be running. It might be like… 10% lower… but for WvW when you aren’t solo roaming, 10% doesn’t make a huge difference. Being able to stay alive while they kill themselves does, no?

Update: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsd7cl0npRtlpxPNcrRSrxcqjQdXnVGpCokbUNA-TVCBABCu/wRK/yR9HAeCAJY+bClgMcCA24gAon+BRBlRA-w

Eucalyptus.9784:

The 1440 is per clone, and that’s just the base that the skill calculator says. They usually hit 2k~ each clone when it says that on my other build. So that’s still a 6-8k non-crit shatter, more if you include me with IP.

I could swap out the Staff for a Scepter/Sword combo for double block to further the Retal stacking, but also throw a solid torment and iSwordsman in.

I’m really not seeing the lack of damage compared to any other build I’d be running. It might be like… 10% lower… but for WvW when you aren’t solo roaming, 10% doesn’t make a huge difference. Being able to stay alive while they kill themselves does, no?

Update: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsd7cl0npStlpxPNcrRSrhcyj9Qd3zlJVgStB-TFCBABCu/wRK/yR9HAeAAJY+bClgMcCA0T/gogyI-w

Could you post this other build you’re mentioning?

Fay.2357:

Could you post this other build you’re mentioning?

Been running this lately, for a fast clone shatter build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8clknpRtlpxINcrNSqxg6verNSmQAl8kuB-TlCBABCu/wRK96T3AAXEgsUG4xDAghjAQCm+mQJYmq/IKoMC-w

It’s not full glass, but that’s kind of the point. I don’t want to play full glass. I want to be able to survive to pick up my bags after a fight.

Not sure about those numbers you posted there, but those shatter numbers definitely seem high.

Regardless, I had a little fun with your build:

Pack runes: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsdWl0npStlpxPNcrNiuxcyWGB1B10SlMgdB-TlCBwA5U/RpynlKhWYiDwjAgiSwi7Pkw8wmzAge9BkCoilRA-w

Your shatters will hit decently with that and you now have warden/curtain reflects to add to your defenses, as well as a little extra regeneration from your phantasms which will help your sustain.

I think mimic and the random aegis from chaos storm will be just enough to warrant retaliatory shield but again you don’t want to go overboard with the retaliation because it can be stripped. You want to be able to apply it with regularity. The leap/light combos from ileap/phase retreat and the curtain will be your primary sources.

Pack runes are great due to the extra precision you get with the #6 bonus. You don’t need traveler in a build like this due to the ample swiftness you’ll have with the focus and especially if you take pack runes. The fury you get is awesome as well and you’ll have it most of the time in active fighting between the runes and winds of chaos procs.

You have decent condition removal and mitigation with mender’s purity, warden/light combo and passive regeneration.

Bear in mind the obvious as well, the buggy warden if you can stand it.

In the end Pryo is probably right but it doesn’t mean you can’t experiment of course

Perhaps a good solution would be to swap some of my Soldier gear for Knights. To hit 40% crit at least…

Edit: Wait a second, Fay is Pyropriest? kitten. Maybe I should take his advice more seriously then. hahah.

Eucalyptus.9784:

Fay.2357:

Could you post this other build you’re mentioning?

Been running this lately, for a fast clone shatter build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8clknpRtlpxINcrNSqxg6verNSmQAl8kuB-TlCBABCu/wRK96T3AAXEgsUG4xDAghjAQCm+mQJYmq/IKoMC-w

It’s not full glass, but that’s kind of the point. I don’t want to play full glass. I want to be able to survive to pick up my bags after a fight.

Ok, so lets compare the two.

You’re saying that it’s substantially tankier. I think you’re a bit wrong about that. The retal build has about 5.5k more health. However, it actually has a little under 200 lower armor. These builds are quite comparable in their sturdiness.

Additionally, your standard build has more than twice the crit rate, and a higher critical damage stat as well. This means it will do far more damage than your retal build.

There’s another issue with your retal build that I forgot to mention. You don’t have DE. Since you intend to play this as a shatter build, you’re going to be massively lacking clone generation. I got away with no DE in my immortal build because it wasn’t a shatter build. It shattered for utility and a bit of damage, but it wasn’t using shatters as a true damage source. You’re just going to be constantly clone-starved in this build.

Pyro,

I thought about DE as well before you replied and noticed I’d be pretty starved, so decided to tweak a bit. I also think that you’re right about having higher crit, and sacrificing a few thousand HP. What about something like this as a Shatter Retal then?

It’s more or less the same, with some weapon swap differences, DE, and a bit more damage and less health. iDefender could be swapped for anything really, but I no longer think Mimic is really necessary, because Cry of Frustration grants 6s of Ret PER illusion shattered. That’s 18 seconds . That, on top of iLeap/Curtain Ret combo, on top of Sword 4 block means pretty much perma Ret. The crit is way higher but good power still so the shatters will actually hurt more too. It feels better. Maybe not best, but better.

http://tinyurl.com/mecnsa5

The sword in both MH’s on Swap is because I think a 7.5 iLeap and swords main attack are far more useful than 1 more block with scepter.

Alright, so I finally got around to playing this build for a while. And I gotta say… it’s really not that great haha. It’s very clunky, and for all the work you put in to keep Retaliation up, it does very minimal.

Would not suggest. Don’t bump thread.