Guild Wars 2

In my never-ending quest to find a workable large group / zerg build, I’ve started using the following GS/Staff build to great effect. The upcoming ability to use dual sigils (fire/battle, most likely) will only make this better. But I think this is close to tops for back-line damage in big/zerg fights (for mesmer, at least).

It’s a 20/10/20/0/20 max-range dps/support build, relying mostly on greatsword with maximum cooldown reduction combined with staff for support and defense. 12 second Phantasmal Bezerkers and 4 second mirror blades are the bread and butter, mixed in with support from null field and chaos storm, and good clone generation for not taking DE.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQJARWlwzKqHVTmGaNJhJFBH5oUY9sTShqTdpC4G-jECBYLBiiAisAI5RZNBSQsMsIas6aYKXER1CBMaBA-w

In small groups, swap out null field for phantasmal disenchanter, empowered illusions for crippling dissipation, blinding befuddlement for comounding power, and trait manipulations, and you can kite like crazy.

Anyway, I’d love feedback. Thanks.

I’m always wondering to myself: what makes a viable mesmer zerg build?

Is it raw DPS?

Is it unique mesmer utility?

Is it the ability to tag appropriately?

Yours seems to be the raw DPS mindset. In which case I wonder, is it anywhere near as good kitten many other classes? Or is your role to target and pick off stragglers and the backline?

Knowing these things helps with feedback about the build.

@Ross

Good questions. The way I see it there are basically two options for mesmers in large fights: 1) Tanky frontline builds that stay on commander to provide veil, time warp, portal and so forth to the heavies; and 2) Backline dps. This build falls in the latter.

The frontline builds, while providing important utilities, unfortunately lack damage (though you can get tags with clone-death condi builds). I run those a lot, but generally only with my organized guild. When I’m running with a less organized group, or when I just want to change things up, I’ll switch to a backline dps—and that’s where this build fits in.

I generally use it to bomb their back line, but mostly I’m in a position to drop a healthy dose of aoe dps on wherever it’s need, while also being able to support the heavies (veil/null filed, chaos storm, etc.) from the back and protect my own back line if necessary, all while also being able to tag the melee train (with izerker and chaos storm), though tags are less a concern.

You probably won’t have the raw dps and utility of a staff ele, but you have much better mobility and single target burst, allowing you to switch between bombing groups and picking off casters, all while getting to play the most fun class.

I’d also forgotten how much fun a double-traited phase retreat is. So much mobility!

I don’t think your roles are the best. I’d say there’s backline utility/support mesmer, and frontline DPS mesmer. You deal much more DPS with Mind Wrack, Blurred Frenzy, The Prestige and sword autoattacks than with GS/Staff from backline.
Our range DPS is quite bad. Only iZerker and Mirror Blade are good ranged options. Staff has general bad DPS and with GS autoattack you need to be out of the battle to do decent damage, so you lost the support.

About the build, I find that running both GS/Staff is not the best, the sword offers so much in zergs for not taking it. Also, Staff is a slow and bulky weapon for zergs. Long CD’s, slow autoattack and useless phantasm. It’s good for begginers, but I always prefer GS Sword/X for any zerg build.
Then, shatters are the best choice for DPS, and I find IP mandatory. The rest is up to you, but note that Chaos line is more oriented to duels.

Nice build! I’ll definitely try it out. I ran with a similar phantasm-heavy build a while ago (swapping the 20 in chaos and the last 5 in Illusions for 25 in Inspiration). Zerker becomes a beast!

Quick question though. I’m not a big fan of the extra bounce trait as it only effects the weak Staff auto-attack and Mirror Blade. Have you tried swapping it for reduced phantasm skills or even moving those points to another tree?

Ansau.7326:

I don’t think your roles are the best. I’d say there’s backline utility/support mesmer, and frontline DPS mesmer. You deal much more DPS with Mind Wrack, Blurred Frenzy, The Prestige and sword autoattacks than with GS/Staff from backline.
Our range DPS is quite bad. Only iZerker and Mirror Blade are good ranged options. Staff has general bad DPS and with GS autoattack you need to be out of the battle to do decent damage, so you lost the support.

About the build, I find that running both GS/Staff is not the best, the sword offers so much in zergs for not taking it. Also, Staff is a slow and bulky weapon for zergs. Long CD’s, slow autoattack and useless phantasm. It’s good for begginers, but I always prefer GS Sword/X for any zerg build.
Then, shatters are the best choice for DPS, and I find IP mandatory. The rest is up to you, but note that Chaos line is more oriented to duels.

Hmmmmm… I’d disagree with quite a bit here, unless I’m missing something. “Frontline” and “DPS” probably don’t belong in the same sentence when discussing mesmer, unless you’re running PVT or something like that (at which point the “DPS” part goes away). Even with a traited blurred frenzy, with any sort of DPS gear setup, you’re likely to melt if you try staying with the frontline. Maybe you’re talking about in and out tactics or something? If that’s the case, I wouldn’t use the term “frontline” to describe it. ;-)

Also, from my experience, shatters in a zerg are pretty hit and miss – they tend to get melted from incidental AOE and die before shattering as often as not. That’s why I’m a GS fan when it comes to zerg running – both the phantasm and the mirror blade clone spawn right next to their target, so an immediate shatter is much more likely to hit. Plus, that AOE iZerker cripple is godly when hitting another group.

Dhampyr.2104:

Also, from my experience, shatters in a zerg are pretty hit and miss – they tend to get melted from incidental AOE and die before shattering as often as not. That’s why I’m a GS fan when it comes to zerg running – both the phantasm and the mirror blade clone spawn right next to their target, so an immediate shatter is much more likely to hit. Plus, that AOE iZerker cripple is godly when hitting another group.

My experience as well. I rarely run with a group smaller than 20 people. Shattering is a magical gift when it happens, but it’s generally unreliable as a primary way to contribute.

GS and Staff provide the most bang-for-my-buck in WvW. Unfortunately, it’s rare that a build maximizes both. Reducing their cooldowns and nabbing some glamours is a strong way to start a build.

You misunderstood some things:
- Going DPS doesn’t imply going mostly offensive stats.
- You understood ranged weapons are bad for zergs. I said going full ranged is bad. GS has a lot to offer in zergs, that’s why I run GS.
- Tanky frontlines have no sense, easy to be interrupted and the need to fully spec deffensive as we are light armor makes us inefficient. Backline has lower and a very slow DPS, and most of our support is ranged, so it can be done perfectly in the backline.

In & out, frontline and backline are all tactics. Frontline (as guards and wars play) is worthless in a mesmer. We’re light armor and we lack sustained DPS. In fact, we excel in bursting.
Backline is easier, safer and grants better support, but the DPS is much lower.
In&out is a mix of both, but it’s mainly frontline, cause you do your role while in the “in”. The “out” is there for an emergency scape or still be useful while your burst is in CD.

Then, we need to look at which skills bring more DPS (aka better skill coefficients). Those are phantasms and melee skills (Apart from Spartial Surge). About phantasms, only iZerker and iWarden are good for zerg. If you read again my post, both phantasms have place in my ideal weapon set (GS + Sword/X).
And melee skills: shatters, BF, sword autoattacks, The Prestige have the highest skill coefficients (Or also they grant additional conditions). Those higher skill coefficients allows you to have good DPS while being more tanky.
Also, DPS in zergs works as burst. Is more important to deal big numbers than seeing thousands of numbers on your screen. And melee skills deals the damage much faster.

So now we know melee skills bring much DPS, we can conclude frontline mesmer will have more DPS than a backline. And here is, as I said in my previous post, when IP (Illusionary Persona) is the bet for DPS. It allows you to bring added DPS through shatters without the necessity of illusions.

Finally, being in frontline doesn’t mean running PVT. Is a weak stat combination and it can be surpassed by mixing other stats. In fact, I don’t have any soldier item. All is a mix of zerker, cavalier, knight and valkyrie. Maybe with the critical damage nerf I’ll get some PVT.

PD: It would be great if you added some footage. Then I’d see your DPS and compared with mine.

Thanks for the clarification, Ansau.

Any chance you could post your build as well? Would love to compare. Cheers!

Unfortunately, due to our guild privacy policy, I cannot tell the exact build. But what I basically do is ripping boons and some DPS.

Here is some of my footage. Most of the builds are not what I actually run, cause I was theorycrafting, but you can see more or less the in&out tactic.

Nice footage, Ansau. You’re likely running a 30/20/0/20/0 or 20/20/0/30/0, which, as you said, are fine for boon stripping and support. I’ll also run GS & Sword/Torch in large fights sometimes, darting in and out for bursts and shatters. But as others have mentioned, the dps of this build is necessarily less than other front line heavies and necros. And given mesmer’s inherent difficulties in surviving in melee (no matter how good you are), it’s hard to build for and sustain good dps while staying with the front line.

For many of us, frontline means staying on the leader/commander and providing dps and support to the heavies. Mesmers can do this, though I’d argue they should go condi for clone-death and glamours, as their melee dps in large groups is subpar. But I’d still consider darting in and out of the fray to be back line, because we’re generally safest behind the melee (as opposed to guards, warriors, and necros, who are safest when on the commander). But this is as much a discussion of semantics, so no worries.

My real point, though, is that while a boon stripping build is completely fine, it has little to do with the build in my original post, and it’s dps is necessarily going to be significantly lower. Shatters are not the easiest to pull of in large fights (as others have mentioned). And greatsword is by far mesmer’s best dps weapon in large fights, especially when traited (yes, better even than sword); the fact that it can be used at range only increases its value from a risk/reward perspective. Staff too provides similar ranged utility, mainly in the form of chaos storm—on a 28 second cooldown, yes, but still better for ranged than any main- or off-hand weapons. Plus, when you’re running full zerker (which gives GS some real damaging power), you lack the sustain to enter the fray, thus making sword/x too risky. Hence, staff.

iZerker —> Mirror Blade --> f1 shatter provides nearly as strong an aoe burst as mesmers can put out, and can be done from maximum range. This is essentially the point of this build—performing this rotation on a 12-second cooldown, interspersed with other skills and so forth. I’m not saying that there aren’t other valid zerg or large-group builds, I’m only offering something I’ve found to be effective.

One final thing: the build has relatively good small group or soloing capabilities as well. While squishy, your phantasms hit hard and are on incredibly short cooldowns, and your weapon skills let you kite like a mofo.