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(edited by Fay.2735)
(edited by YourOwnFear.2743)
This is very much a burst damage build as well as survival that’s the great thing about it! I just tried it out in sPvP (to some extend since I obviously don’t have the same gear etc.) It worked well until more than 2 people got involved. It’s very much a duellist thing.
That and it also worked great in group versus group setting (Keep in mind I only did it for about an hour just now so I can’t give any conclusive feedback on success rate in sPvP).
I found that the weakest area overall is when it’s you against 2 or more on your own. So if you go 1v1 or even 2v1 it’s great. If you go group versus group it’s also great. Anything in between it get’s a bit tougher BUT you do last quite a while if you do end up against 3/4 other people in which case a team mate might be able to join in and help.
The problem is that it’s not the best of builds in sPvP simply because you do end up going 1vs3+ a lot of the time and mantra builds are just not ideal for that. I did however enjoy it and whenever it was 1v1, I won (mostly no doubt because other sPvPers aren’t familiar with mantras).
That said, I’m not a huge sPvPer so if there are sPvPers out there who want to give this build a try (or a variation thereof) they would be able to give clearer feedback.
WvW or PvE (dungeons) however, great build. At the very least I would recommend other mesmers to try it out if they can. It will take some practice but when you get the hang of it you end up feeling like you can’t do without!
One thing though running a mantra build goes very much against a mesmers natural instinct of not being obvious and using illusions to distract. My build pretty much leaves you exposed a lot of the time.
However, people will expect you to be therefore a terrible mesmer thinking ‘Oh we spotted the real one, haha this is going to be easy!’ just to find out they are dead on the floor. This build essentially tricks people into thinking they will have an easy win not expecting you to do high damage, awesome control yet not be glass cannon.
Give it a whirl
Lilyfay
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Its kind of misleading to call this a burst build because it involves switching your weapon 2 times+ 7 steps(roughly 14-20s). But I will try it out myself
Its kind of misleading to call this a burst build because it involves switching your weapon 2 times+ 7 steps(roughly 14-20s). But I will try it out myself
It’s not misleading because with the build you do bursts of damage rather than sustained.
Mind Wrack + Blurred Frenzy + Mantra of Pain = A lot of pain for your enemy
Check out my first gameplay video I’ve added on my first post. You can see how I do bursts of significant damage by combining all these things.
Heal = 0:36
Burst = 0:25 & 0:40
That said the opponent isn’t ideal and I hope to record a better video soon versus a proper enemy. I just wanted to demonstrate roughly how it works and what I mean with Burst & Heal.
I hope that makes more sense
Lilyfay
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(edited by Wise.8025)
Show me how well your build fares against:
Thief
Mesmer
and vs the Zerg which is all too commonly found in WvW and non tourney PvPtrying your build in the mists and spvp. let me describe it
- clunky
- slow
- far more effort for mediocre results (this one will change if i choose to really get familiar with the setup)
- survivability is low / there is no hiding amongst your clones with mantra’s
- little to nothing that can be done vs BS thief/ 100b war wasn’t too bad as long as i had my blink up
They are the type of encounters I intend on capturing on video so expect those in the near future
I generally don’t have issues with thieves, mesmers or in zergs. Unless a glass cannon thief takes me by surprise when I’m running from point A and B and he pounces on top of me when I’m trying to type something in chat
.
The only time I tend to get into trouble is when I’m outnumbered (1vs3+) though I can usually still last quite a while. That or when I make mistakes/time things wrong. With a mantra build you have a lot more going on at the same time and so it can get very intense.
Specific professions that I sometimes struggle with are high toughness/vitality guardians, a specific thief build and d/d elementalists (though I’m starting to get the hang of beating them now, the burst in this build is great to counter d/d ele’s if you time it right and with using swiftness runes I can keep up better, timing has to be perfect though which is incredibly hard).
It varies a lot, I can beat all professions and equally loose against them depending on their builds and skill level but I’m getting better with the mantra build the more and more I practice with it.
As for the build being clunky and slow, It’s how it feels when you first start using it. I find it required a lot more practice than any other builds I’ve tried to get the timing right.
I also don’t think it’s the best build for sPvP because it’s weakness is when you are heavily outnumbered (which happens a lot in sPvP) where as in WvW you tend to be in a zerg or run into solo thieves/small skirmishes more often. This is where a mantra build shines.
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Great guide Lilyfay. Very informative and a really nice unique angle on mesmer game-play. There are a lot of moving parts here: this is definitely one of the more advanced mesmer build’s, requiring a lot of timing and foresight to be properly setup before encounters.
I like it.
Thank you for the compliment Grimms
So as I mentioned D/D Ele’s (good ones) I tend to have trouble with because I don’t use a lot of conditions and so it’s hard to counteract their heals/protections.
As a mantra mesmer you are completely vulnerable in a way to your enemy, you don’t have the usual decoy/clone spam to hide behind and so your enemy will know where you are which means you have to play very smart.
I’ve done some practice 1v1 against a really good D/D Ele and the problem is just that, While a confusion mesmer could eat up a D/D Ele with ease, A mantra mesmer will have to have perfect timing. If you intend on going skirmishing or doing 1v1 with a mantra build I would recommend equipping Mantra of Distraction in stead of Resolve.
You need to time the dazes and magic bullet perfectly for when they use their heal and swap to water attunement to heal and then use Mind Stab to remove their HOT.
This is incredibly difficult not just to time right but also spot the abilities being used on the Ele (Especially Asura ones). I do feel that their healing is too strong with not enough for other professions to counter it unless you use a specific build.
Without a doubt mantra build is the hardest one to master from all the builds I’ve tried. I also feel Mantra of Pain could do with a little buff. I don’t feel like it does enough damage and is underpowered despite being able to cast it at any time.
All that said, I will be sticking to mantra build simply because I feel if I master this build I have truly mastered the mesmer fully. If I can time my mantras and CC’s perfectly versus other professions abilities without margin of error I feel like I’ve really pushed the boundaries.
It’s very hard work. Highest skill level requirement of any build I’ve found BUT if you like a challenge if you like to have truly earned your kill it’s the most rewarding play I’ve done. The healing is rewarding in groups, The burst damage is amazing.
Being exposed as a mesmer is terrifying at first but oh so fun when you defeat the enemy anyway.
Lilyfay
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Thanks for the inspiration, tried Mantras again since I had put them down ages back, it’s quite fun. After a few games I realized that I could use Mender’s Purity + Temporal Curtain and Warden for my cleanse effects and didn’t need to run a full suite of Mantras freeing spots for Decoy and Blink for added mobility and deception, all the power of Mantra healing coupled with all the power of the Harmonious Mantras. Runes of Lyssa helped keep my Crit chances high while giving me the final piece of mass Condition Removal and buff to setup a nice little burst when needed.
I started the game playing Mantras and ran a full suite, but it’s really not needed from what I’ve been able to see. Keep the full on Mesmer playstyle and have your mantras too, stealth gives you time to reset the Mantras without interruption making you not need the Mantra Armor trait and you can then utilize Focus for pulling people off points in PvP or for movement in WvW, also to set up burst and to AoE cleanse if they are Necros, focus gives you access to Retaliation if you choose to build more defensive.
Thanks for posting the build, it gave me some really useful ideas.
I’ve posted a new video of the mantra build in 10 1v1 matches (sPvP) I did last night. It should give everyone a much better idea of how it works. Enjoy
I’ve added another video demonstrating how the healing can be very useful in WvW while attacking a gate and being attacked by arrow carts:
http://youtu.be/k8BYmAhX3QE?hd=1
I will be adding more combat videos when I can so expect more
Totally going to try that out as soon as I get home !!!
Now, a little question:
Does the healing on mantras (from trait) trigger the boon from Rune of Lyssa? Wishful thinking probably on my part
Totally going to try that out as soon as I get home !!!
Now, a little question:
Does the healing on mantras (from trait) trigger the boon from Rune of Lyssa? Wishful thinking probably on my part
Well, I have runes of the centaur that gives swiftness when using a healing skill. The way it works for me is that if you use mantra of recovery it triggers 10s of swiftness (See the bit in my post about healing and the video).
As well as when using the readied heals (with 5s CD) so I assume that if you want the boons/condition removal of Rune of Lyssa it would work the same but replace swiftness with the boons.
However, The centaur runes do not trigger whenever you finish casting other mantras, so al though it triggers on mantra of recovery (and the readied heals). It doesn’t on the trait itself ‘Restorative Mantras’ because I don’t get swiftness from the other mantras.
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As promised I found some thieves to 1v1 with (and a ranger) and made another video of the encounters. Enjoy
So yeah, I tried the build, but I didn’t enjoy it
. I so wanted to love this, but I just couldn’t. Mostly I think because some parts didn’t work as I was expecting them to.
That being said, I see value in this build and, even now, after saying this build did not seduce me, I have a nagging feeling in the back of my head telling me, urging me even to give it another go :P. So who knows?
Just my two cents
So yeah, I tried the build, but I didn’t enjoy it
That being said, I see value in this build and, even now, after saying this build did not seduce me, I have a nagging feeling in the back of my head telling me, urging me even to give it another go :P. So who knows?
Just my two cents
It’s most likely because playing a mantra build is almost like playing another profession, It’s vastly different from other builds because you don’t rely as heavily on phantasms, clones and stealth. But rather on weapon damage and mantra control.
Suffice to say it takes a while to get used to it but I can understand it’s not for everyone.
After i have tested this build for a while, i think its time to write something to you Fay.
First i like your thinking about mantras. I searched a long time for such a build and i really like it.
For the first time i could beat a Thief AFTER i took a backstep without seeing the thief before.
It was hard, but doable.
I was really proud of myself
Second: It is nice, that you can switch traits and weapons as needed in this build. For example in Fotm, uncatagocrized (hope i wrote it right) fractal you can switch to fokus-reflection with all your focus-skills. ( also nice to troll with it cough)
Thrid: I think this build does really well with centaur-runes as well as rubin-orbs. Which means, you could (if you dont want to take the runes for speed) take almost every rune that supports raw and pure damage.
I personaly would like to see a little buff to our Mantra of Pain, but not much… maybe it is just wishful thinking ….
The healing you can do in dungeons for your group… countless times it saved the * of someone of my group… but never got credit back
I hope you keep your work up. If i find something more useful than this, i will write again
And to all Mesmer who give this build a try:
Don’t let yourself get discouraged, its not your everyday-build and it will take a will to get used to it ( i even changed my keybord-shortcuts for it to be more effectiv). It is worth it!
I hope you keep your work up. If i find something more useful than this, i will write again
And to all Mesmer who give this build a try:
Don’t let yourself get discouraged, its not your everyday-build and it will take a will to get used to it ( i even changed my keybord-shortcuts for it to be more effectiv). It is worth it!
Thanks
I’m glad you’re enjoying it and see the viability of the build with practice. It does require a lot of button pressing at the same time, I had to rebind as well just now starting to get used to using them.
CC timing is hard especially versus those professions where if you don’t use the CC at the right time they will beat you (D/D Ele, P/D Thief).
I also agree that Mantra of Pain is underpowered overall despite being able to use it no matter what. Maybe a base damage of 800? would be more reasonable. A lot higher than it is now anyway.
So I’m trying to figure out Mantra build, and at first I looked at the “Halting Strike” major trait and thought it sounded cool.
After testing it out it does 130-ish damage… no… I can’t do mantra build until that scales with weapons/power or some puppy.
Well Halting Strike is more suitable if you use off-hand sword or scepter as you have a block to interrupt with al though daze does as well. I personally think Mental Torment and Crippling Dissapation are more consistent and useful. Although It’s really just a personal preference.
I agree that there are some abilities/traits within the mesmer that don’t scale up appropriately in relation to your gear. I hope they will give us some buffs soon.
very interesting build Fay, I’m eager to try it out xD
Good luck
Suppose instead of dueling, I go for illusions for phantasm damage during the mantra down times? I’m still 34 so I can’t try it out for myself.
The key to the build is to do a lot of damage and then survive the time required to cast mantras. This isn’t easy but with practice it can make for interesting gameplay.
Of course you can try make a hybrid of the build, I personally feel Mantra of Pain that is already fairly underpowered is pretty worthless without the prec/crit.
No good. Lets say you play against someone that doesn’t suck and knows what he’s doing. You spam all your mantras then what? Are you gonna spend 10 minutes recasting them in combat? No. You won’t have any on you and damage that adds per mantra won’t be available. Or you can let one charge up for damage but then its like you’re not using your utilities… That, plus healing mantra is just……….so bad. Unless you are in wvw where healing isn’t that important and can spam at max ranges, the matra builds suck for pvp.
I can understand your concern with the mantra casting it’s quite odd to get the hang off, I did practice against some people who I know are very good. Admittedly I couldn’t beat a d/d healing Ele and a p/d vit/heal thief (yet) as the cc timing requirement on that has to be perfect (To be fair most people are having issues with them unless you run a confusion mesmer).
I do believe it is possible to beat these builds, just very hard (Mostly due to the insane healing on the Ele and healing in stealth on the Thief). Despite not beating them I did get close to beating each and I did generally last a very long time against them.
As for casting mantras, if you get into trouble you can start casting the mantra then blink away. It wont interrupt the cast (Can do same with portals). You can always pop timewarp if things get really bad.
Also they decreased the cast time it’s more around 3 and a bit seconds now, You should be able to find enough time to recast it during combat if you play smart.
With Restorative Mantras you heal yourself each time you finish casting a mantra, I’d say it makes a huge difference. I can get my health back up to nearly full just by recasting the mantras and using the readied heals.
,Lilyfay
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maybe this build is good on PvE or WvW dont know, but on tPvP look completly useless.
dont mention that prepare all mantars before combat seem a pain, do the same kitten over and over againno PORTAL and less burst compared with a pure shatter build.
I haven’t tried it out in any sort of serious competitive setting (tournaments), I went into sPvP to duel some random people to demonstrate it versus certain professions. So far I’ve had quite a lot of success with it in sPvP which surprised me as I didn’t think it would work that well in sPvP.
As I already stated, I don’t think it’s the best build for sPvP and is better for WvW and PvE. Mostly due to being heavily outnumbered a lot of the time and the mantra build is very much single target (1vs3/4 is common in sPvP).
(I hope they will bring out a duelling option in the upcoming patch, Mantra builds would shine in that setting)
That said I don’t think mantras are completely useless in sPvP and some of them would be of great use. I’ve quite enjoyed using them in sPvP and will continue to do so. I can understand that it’s not for everyone but I’m confident some people would be interested in using them
My guide is more intended to show the viability of mantras and the build I run having quite a lot of success in practice. I feel that unless you’ve practised and given it a good try you won’t know if it’s the kind of build for you or not.
You have to put A LOT more effort into your kills using this build so if you like a challenge it’s more rewarding in beating that challenge, It’s one thing I like about the build, it’s more personally fulfilling to know you really worked hard for it.
However what is hard for you will be easymode for other builds and professions so it can get very discouraging when you make a mistake and your opponent steamrolls over you with ease. The difficulty of the build is both a negative and positive attribute of it.
I think mantra builds are very much a preference to a very small minority of mesmers. I just hope more mesmers will try them out or understand them a bit better through my guide rather than just copy paste the same builds everyone uses
,Lilyfay
Any decent warrior has atleast 1-2 stuns. Of not a full stunlock…Interrupts mostly destroy the rotation and you will end up half dead running….then get bullcharged and die.
But i like the Post. I am still thinking to roll an Mesmer or Ranger. Any opinion?
Rangers do look kitten, and legendary’s are cool to. Mesmer can look decent to, but seems a bit strange in gameplay, nut sure clonespamming is for me. (but i keep hearing how good they are.)
Warriors are the easiest to beat from all professions I faced with my mantra build (or any mesmer build really) the only thing they can do where they will win is run away with their charge and speed boons.
As for which profession to roll, it’s really a personal choice what I would advice is to try all professions and all their weapon skills. If you enjoy using the weapons it usually is a decent indicator on whether you will like to profession or not.
3. Mantra of Recovery, by itself, has very high heal throughput per second. With any Mantra traits, it crushes the other heals for throughput. Still constrained because of its mechanics, but that is the cost of the most potent heal.
Not to mention the amount of times you can trigger the boons from runes, Together with Restorative mantras I find it far superior heal to the basic one.
Some people just don’t like mantra game-play, Having to cast them for a lot of people feels awkward and slow. I was one of the people who felt the same way until they reduced cast time and I feel it’s more viable now, quite enjoying it.
The only problem I have with mantra builds is Mantra of pain is underpowered, Also Mantra of Distraction cooldowns are awkward. The whole point of having a mantra is so you can instant cast the spells without interruption but there’s a long cd on the charge then a cd on each use.
I think in order to beat professions like D/D eles and P/D thieves there would need to be a slight reduction in the two cd times for Mantra of Distraction. As I feel having to use ‘Mantra Mastery’ is not as useful as having clones on dodge to shatter, and blade training is needed for the bursts of damage.
Sure you can take away from inspiration but then you loose restorative mantras which you need to survive to any reasonable amount with the above build.
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The only problem I have with mantra builds is Mantra of pain is underpowered
It’s not.
“Your Power Spike hits upleveled scrub invader for 4,277 damage.”
Still takes juicy chunks out of 80s in exotics.
The key for MoPain to work, however, is to make sure you’re using it during the animation of other attacks, else it’s a waste.
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The only problem I have with mantra builds is Mantra of pain is underpowered
It’s not
“Your Power Spike hits upleveled scrub invader for 4,277 damage.”
Still takes juicy chunks out of 80s in exotics.
The key for MoPain to work, however, is to make sure you’re using it during the animation of other attacks, else it’s a waste.
I tested it just now. Base damage of my power spike is 700/800ish, crits for 1.2/1.7k on it’s own. I also tend to use it in combination with blurred frenzy and other attacks. Not sure where you got 4.2k from :/ Maybe if you run glass cannon build?
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So got lucky when testing this build out in the mists and ended up in a 1v1 match with a ranger. Score! Lol.
Anyways, I gotta agree with the others who have said that this build feels clunky but I will differ in that I believe it does have some potential and that it only feels clunky because you need A LOT of practice with it.
My 1st bout with the ranger was horrible, I got out right spanked, but during that 1st fight I slowly began to get a feel for the way I was supposed to string combos together. This lead to a very close 2nd fight with me winning a downed state battle(those are always so funny and yet so hectic) and then the 3rd and 4th I completely owned him. So much so that he seemed to rage quit the match after his 3rd loss in a row
Unfortunately I haven’t had the time/opportunity to test it against other classes or builds besides the ranger(he mainly was using sword/dagger and traps) but for now I’m very intrigued by this build. I will have to say from my current experience with this build I don’t see much potential for it in anything other than 1v1 scenarios but that may just be a issue of lack of experience with the build.
Fay is right though, its great fun to be able to beat someone with this build since it is rather unconventional in the eyes of most players(even other mesmers) and players are definitely not expecting it. Keep up the good work Fay and I’ll keep practicing xD Hopefully some time later tonight I’ll get to test it out in a 2v1 scenario and let you know how it felt.
So got lucky when testing this build out in the mists and ended up in a 1v1 match with a ranger. Score! Lol.
Anyways, I gotta agree with the others who have said that this build feels clunky but I will differ in that I believe it does have some potential and that it only feels clunky because you need A LOT of practice with it.
My 1st bout with the ranger was horrible, I got out right spanked, but during that 1st fight I slowly began to get a feel for the way I was supposed to string combos together. This lead to a very close 2nd fight with me winning a downed state battle(those are always so funny and yet so hectic) and then the 3rd and 4th I completely owned him. So much so that he seemed to rage quit the match after his 3rd loss in a row
Unfortunately I haven’t had the time/opportunity to test it against other classes or builds besides the ranger(he mainly was using sword/dagger and traps) but for now I’m very intrigued by this build. I will have to say from my current experience with this build I don’t see much potential for it in anything other than 1v1 scenarios but that may just be a issue of lack of experience with the build.
Fay is right though, its great fun to be able to beat someone with this build since it is rather unconventional in the eyes of most players(even other mesmers) and players are definitely not expecting it. Keep up the good work Fay and I’ll keep practicing xD Hopefully some time later tonight I’ll get to test it out in a 2v1 scenario and let you know how it felt.
Sounds like you had fun I tend to love the reaction of surprise from people I 1v1 with. They definitely do not expect to be chain dazed and sudden big chunks of health being taken off. It’s quite satisfying.
But yes it does take practice to get the CC timing right, The gameplay is very different from the usual and takes time getting used to. It also requires knowledge of other professions as well, to know when to use it and when to wait.
I do feel mantras could do with some buffs/rethinking like:
Just as a reference, 4mantra build with the dueling trait(more damage per charged mantra) is pretty much the equivalent to your well known 5sig Warrior. Probably only worse.
Does that mean Empowering Mantras works with Harmonious Mantras? Allowing you to do more damage because you have 3x mantras readied per mantra rather than 2x?
Both empowering mantras and harmonious mantras being Grandmastery level choices on two separate trait lines is awkward. It means you would have to go too much into glass cannon to be effective with power spike.
I think a solution would be to swap some traits around (That or buff base Power spike a bit and compensate empowering mantras). For example Protected Mantras with Compounding Celerity. I mean why is it even in Duelling :/ Sounds more like a vitality or toughness trait.
Then Empowering mantras with Mantra Mastery and Deceptive Evasion with Blade training. Always felt the latter two should’ve been swapped (These are just random ideas it might cause balancing issues that I haven’t thought of and it might make mantra builds overpowered).
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How does this build do with endgame PVE and Dungeons? Do you think you could post a quick video if it is viable?
Sure I will try to make one when I can in the next couple of days and post it.