Guild Wars 2

I was kind of amused about this while looking through the Scrapper live stream notes. The Bulwark Gyro itself is essentially iDefender, while its toolbelt skill is a self-targeted, mobile Feedback.

Bulwark Gyro: Applies a large AoE damage reduction (50%) to you and allies. It will also take these damage on itself. It has a very large health pool so you can step behind the gyro and let it take all the damage.
Defense Field (Toolbelt Skill): Straight up reflection shield that reflects projectiles. It follows you around.

Because the Mesmer moto is twice the work for half the results.

Don’t forgot Purge Gyro which is basically iDisenchanter without the silly bouncing projectile, and Shredder Gyro which is iWarden without projectile block/reflect, but has a targeting circle like we’ve always wanted.

Who wants to bet that the bulwark gyro is gonna have like 3x the hp of the defender?

If the Bulwark Gyro has significantly more hp than the iDefender I’ll raise a stink.

Nice! I really love that Engi is sharing some of our utility duty. Having another class on the field with damage reduction, group stealth, and reflects is fantastic.

There will always be concerns about the various ways in which iDefender does/doesn’t hold up compared with the bulwark gyro… but we can just give that feedback during the BWE3.

Psyched to have some utility slots free up for some different skills! I think I’m getting monitor burn-in from having Veil and Portal locked in their respective places for 3 years.

The question now is, what happens when you have both a Bulwark Gyro and an iDefender out? Do they reduce one another’s damage?

So unlike the iDefender, the Bulwark Gyro:
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1. Doesn’t have a long-kitten cast time.

2. Doesn’t require a target.

3. Doesn’t disappear when the target dies.

4. Doesn’t need to run into cleave range and attack to provide its effect.

5. Doesn’t take extra damage for no reason because Illusions that will die anyway get hit by cleaves/AoEs.

6. Doesn’t get destroyed whether you like it or not when you use your profession mechanic.
.

On the other hand, the iDefender:
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1. Is on a lower CD and has quite a few traits to improve the frequency at which it can be conjured.

2. Can potentially last longer than 15s (yeah right).

3. Adds some DPS (…..).
.

All’s said and done though, the Mesmer isn’t meant to be tanky like the Scrapper’s obviously meant to be, so I don’t begrudge them for the Bulwark Drone.

That said, would certainly be nice if iDefenders have more HP so they don’t fizzle the moment an AoE hits all your Illusions.

Embolism.8106:

All’s said and done though, the Mesmer isn’t meant to be tanky like the Scrapper’s obviously meant to be, so I don’t begrudge them for the Bulwark Drone.

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

Fay.2357:

Embolism.8106:

All’s said and done though, the Mesmer isn’t meant to be tanky like the Scrapper’s obviously meant to be, so I don’t begrudge them for the Bulwark Drone.

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

If that’s how you want to take it, sure.

Personally if given the choice I’d still take iDefender over Bulwark Drone because the way it synergises with our traits and Shatters makes it very potent with the right (Chronomancy) build.

It’s pointless to compare these two because engineer is very utility skill centered class because their lack of weapon swap forces them on using kits.

And every utility slot that is taken for a gyro, turret, elixir or gadget means a lot less versatility since they get lower total number of skills.

Kits simply outshine them as they really only need 2+ skills worthwhile/good skills in them to be the preferred choice.

Embolism.8106:

Fay.2357:

Embolism.8106:

All’s said and done though, the Mesmer isn’t meant to be tanky like the Scrapper’s obviously meant to be, so I don’t begrudge them for the Bulwark Drone.

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

If that’s how you want to take it, sure.

Personally if given the choice I’d still take iDefender over Bulwark Drone because the way it synergises with our traits and Shatters makes it very potent with the right (Chronomancy) build.

The way it synergises with our traits? Hardly. You can reduce the cooldown by shattering phantasms I guess, there’s a cooldown trait for it…and you can boost the health by an insignificant amount. That’s pretty much it for anything unique to the pDefender.

It also interacts anything but well with our shatters. Shatters and pDefender interact rather destructively, since the pDefender is purely a defensive skill that instantly loses all benefit when shattered.

The bulwark gyro…

Has a higher cooldown…but no cast time which means that you’ll realistically be able to use it more often than the defender, which has an absolutely insane 1.5 second cast time.

Stays by default next to the engineer. This means that you can move around to keep it from getting smushed by aoes or other cleaving attacks. The pDefender goes and facerubs whatever you summon it on, meaning it’s first in line for getting instakilled by any attack.

Doesn’t instantly disappear when something dies. The pDefender in theory lasts forever, but in reality it dies rapidly from damage, and often dies even more rapidly with its target.

Has a daze built into the skill. You don’t even need to waste other gyros to apply it, just press the button and off it goes!

But wait, there’s more!

The bulwark gyro comes with a nifty built in toolbelt skill. The toolbelt skill is feedback, if feedback was pbaoe, moved with you, had a cooldown that was 7 seconds shorter, aaaaand didn’t take up a utility slot.

So yeah, bulwark gyro absolutely blows our stuff out of the water, there’s really no valid way to argue otherwise.

Maybe with all these pets flying around ANet will do something about how they’re all cleaved out in a second or two by bosses.

Yes you, Robert Gee, I know you’re reading this. Please AoE/cleave immunity for pets unless specifically targeted certainly in PvE would be amazing.

With Celerity, PoM, Phantasma, Alacrity, double iAvenger and Mental Defence, I can get a lot of Shattering done with high uptime for iDefender. Since I’m Shattering and reconjuring/Phantasma-ing iDefender a lot, its limited HP doesn’t matter.

Illusion of Defence is not tied to any particular iDefender so reconjured/Phantasma’d iDefenders inherit the scapegoating effect.

If iDefender is replaced by Bulwark Drone, sure it’s better by itself but it loses its synergistic place in my Chronomancy build.

Embolism.8106:

With Celerity, PoM, Phantasma, Alacrity, double iAvenger and Mental Defence, I can get a lot of Shattering done with high uptime for iDefender. Since I’m Shattering and reconjuring/Phantasma-ing iDefender a lot, its limited HP doesn’t matter.

Illusion of Defence is not tied to any particular iDefender so reconjured/Phantasma’d iDefenders inherit the scapegoating effect.

If iDefender is replaced by Bulwark Drone, sure it’s better by itself but it loses its synergistic place in my Chronomancy build.

Arguing to literally take bulwark drone and put it on mesmer is ridiculous, to put it lightly. The point is that everything pDefender does…bulwark drone does it better. Yes, pDefender is an illusion, and this means that on mesmer, you can do illusiony things with it… but that contributes less than nothing to the issue that bulwark drone is simply better at doing what pDefender is supposed to do.

Fay.2357:

Arguing to literally take bulwark drone and put it on mesmer is ridiculous, to put it lightly. The point is that everything pDefender does…bulwark drone does it better. Yes, pDefender is an illusion, and this means that on mesmer, you can do illusiony things with it… but that contributes less than nothing to the issue that bulwark drone is simply better at doing what pDefender is supposed to do.

Hence my list which by the way mirrors what you said in your previous post:

Embolism.8106:

So unlike the iDefender, the Bulwark Gyro:
.

1. Doesn’t have a long-kitten cast time.

2. Doesn’t require a target.

3. Doesn’t disappear when the target dies.

4. Doesn’t need to run into cleave range and attack to provide its effect.

5. Doesn’t take extra damage for no reason because Illusions that will die anyway get hit by cleaves/AoEs.

6. Doesn’t get destroyed whether you like it or not when you use your profession mechanic.

I’m simply explaining why iDefender being an Phantasm is, in my eyes, fitting compensation for its shortcomings compared to the Bulwark Gyro. That is not to say I wouldn’t want to see buffs for iDefender so it’s better on its own merits.

As a person who loves and enjoys both, engi and mesmer, equally, I also agree that solo skills should be better than allrounders. Or that is to say:

• The Defender should ALWAYS outshine the Bulwark.
• The Feedback should also ALWAYS outshine the Defense Field (toolbelt).
• The Bulwark AND it’s toolbelt should be equal to the Defender OR Feedback.

But to be fair, the Bulwark is the only good gyro the scrapper has right now. It’s the only one who is balanced. So I see the problem rather in the old, rusty and underpowered skills of the mesmer, rather than the scrapper.

Therefore I suggest:

• The Bulwark to recive 50% of the damage the allies get (as it is now).
• The Defender to have it’s HP reduced to the same HP as any other phantasm, but to NOT recive the damage of allies, just reducing it. The counterplay lies in destroying the defender.

This will make the Defender able to outshine the Bulwark since the Defender’s only purpose is to reduce damage, while the bulwark has also the ability to reflect. It will also make the Defender a more viable option in the current meta (especially pvp where he’s never seen).

PS: don’t compare Disenchanter with the purge gyro – that’s just a battle of two low end tier skills of each profession … they both need love :<

At least gyro’s dont inflict conditions and effects upon death.

…oh wait.

Embolism.8106:

Fay.2357:

Embolism.8106:

All’s said and done though, the Mesmer isn’t meant to be tanky like the Scrapper’s obviously meant to be, so I don’t begrudge them for the Bulwark Drone.

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

If that’s how you want to take it, sure.

Personally if given the choice I’d still take iDefender over Bulwark Drone because the way it synergises with our traits and Shatters makes it very potent with the right (Chronomancy) build.

I would never, ever take iDefender over decoy, blink, and MoD for survivability. I’d also take a list of other utilities before it too.

apharma.3741:

Maybe with all these pets flying around ANet will do something about how they’re all cleaved out in a second or two by bosses.

Yes you, Robert Gee, I know you’re reading this. Please AoE/cleave immunity for pets unless specifically targeted certainly in PvE would be amazing.

Unfortunately, everybody but us and the Rangers get the option of leaving their pets at home. And, accordingly, do leave their pets at home, aside from the brief but terrifying reign of the turret engi in sPvP.

Do you think if we ask nicely Robert Gee will adjust iDefender to match the Gyro?

Ross Biddle.2367:

Embolism.8106:

Fay.2357:

Embolism.8106:

All’s said and done though, the Mesmer isn’t meant to be tanky like the Scrapper’s obviously meant to be, so I don’t begrudge them for the Bulwark Drone.

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

If that’s how you want to take it, sure.

Personally if given the choice I’d still take iDefender over Bulwark Drone because the way it synergises with our traits and Shatters makes it very potent with the right (Chronomancy) build.

I would never, ever take iDefender over decoy, blink, and MoD for survivability. I’d also take a list of other utilities before it too.

I explained the basics of the “right” Chronomancy build that would benefit far more from iDefender both offensively and defensively in my next post.

For further clarification, it’s a build designed to punish enemies for attacking you, so you want to get hit; which makes defensive skills that helps you evade attacks (Blink, Decoy) somewhat counterproductive.

The only saving grace for our utility phantasms is to shorten the cast time to 1s, to be consistent with weapon phantasms and also…

In my opinion, instead of bolstering the defensive aspect to match with Bulwark Gyro/Purge Gyro… Anet can take an alternative path to distinguish our phantasms by significantly increase their damage output (like they did with iCap) so they have a good balance between offense and defense.

iDisenchanter already has some offense with boonstrip but more dmg would be nice.

Again, the same arguments come ‘’Not same class’‘, ’’Have to use the elite spec’’ and ‘’Comparing different things’’ just to make people that raise awareness go silent.

Gyros from engineer are better versions of pDefender, pDisenchanter (without boon hate) and Feedback (one can argue you can’t target with it, fair enough).

Bulwark Gyro is something mesmers always wanted. pDefender just by being target dependent make it weaker.

Not even talking about the 900 range revealing yet…

The scrapper utilities are basically improved utility phantasm. Fantastic.

Yeah… the defender is okay in small fights and bad in larger ones, but at least you can get one for free with a trait. I think it’s down to 2 issues that really matter:

• Cast time – easy to fix
• The basic mechanic may well be impossible to balance as it will just die too fast in large fights

Bulwark gyro has a much higher chance of being usable, it’s instant cast, doesn’t mindlessly rush into danger and will gain from engis being far better at healing or applying boons to it. It appeared to have 10k health in the video but the cooldown starts when it dies, around so it’s between 30 and 45 depending how fast it dies.

That said, I think the drone is fine – defender, not so much. Having it apply aegis and protection when attacking would be much simpler… otherwise people have already mentioned useful solutions.

The Gyro certainly does sound nice. To think, all they have to give up for it is Elixir Gun, with its condis and cleanses and stunbreak and movement and blast finisher and damage patch. Or the bomb kit, with its point control, blind fields, fire fields and blast finishers. Or the flame thrower, with its burning pressure and own combo fields/finishers with its awesome traits.

I’m seeing a lot of QQ on the forums from other classes, and other classes simply do not understand the issue. The competition for engineer utilities is incredibly fierce. Kits are hands down the best utilities in the game, and to switch out a kit is essentially losing an instant weapon swap. That is far more than what any other class has to give up when they change utilities.

To compete with kits, a utility needs to do either one of two things. Be unique, or be extremely powerful. So while everyone is complaining about drones being to strong, engineers are skeptical if they are even worth a slot.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The Gyro certainly does sound nice. To think, all they have to give up for it is Elixir Gun, with its condis and cleanses and stunbreak and movement and blast finisher and damage patch. Or the bomb kit, with its point control, blind fields, fire fields and blast finishers. Or the flame thrower, with its burning pressure and own combo fields/finishers with its awesome traits.

I’m seeing a lot of QQ on the forums from other classes, and other classes simply do not understand the issue. The competition for engineer utilities is incredibly fierce. Kits are hands down the best utilities in the game, and to switch out a kit is essentially losing an instant weapon swap. That is far more than what any other class has to give up when they change utilities.

To compete with kits, a utility needs to do either one of two things. Be unique, or be extremely powerful. So while everyone is complaining about drones being to strong, engineers are skeptical if they are even worth a slot.

I don’t think you understand.

Mesmer’s arent going to give up their much needed decoy, blink, portal, MoD, Mantra Cleanse, Signit, etc for iDefender. It’s simply that Gyro displays how iDefender should be and raises the question of why iDefender is in the game at all when they can obviously get it right all along.

Ross Biddle.2367:

At least gyro’s dont inflict conditions and effects upon death.

…oh wait.

That one made my day Engi gyro death build incoming? JK

Yeah bulwark gyro is not too strong, it needs to compete with kits. Pdefender is too weak however. I liked the suggestion to make it just reduce damage taken in aoe so the enemy actually has to kill it. But this would be tricky since it would be op in 1v1 and bad in teamfights. Unless there was some scaling HP on it depending on how many enemies are in a 1000range area.

If damage is no longer transferred to the iDefender then it doesn’t matter if it dies in a second as long as it gets the initial application off.

In fact just simplify it to Protection… 5s of Protection to allies within 600 range when the iDefender attacks. And of course, reduce iDefender and iDisenchanter’s cast times from 1.5s to 1s.

On a related note, iAvenger’s Alacrity should be in a 600 radius too. I see no reason why you have to be in melee range of the target to get the buff. Keep the Slow in a 240 radius if that’s the issue.

I really had so much fun (?) reading engi forums. They are complaining about everything and what i see is strong if not a bit op stuff.
Gyros in its viability remind me of wells when they first came out. 1 or 2 viable, rest lacking smthg. Yet gyros dont require range, LoS, target visible/in-range after summoned to remain usefull in the battlefield. Purging gyro even checks for different targets nearby and follows you.

Hammer is a weapon that provides defensive mechanincs while dealing dmg:
- Auto-attack grants 8 sec might and 12 seconds! of vulnerability while our poor sword only applies it for 5 sec. And to have a weapon granting might we need a grandmaster (5s might).

- Hammer#2 if you want to compare, has similarities with blured frenzy, it negate ranged attacks only yet it reflects it, apply its dmg in less applications ( x2 vs x8, so less retaliation dmg received), it is a whirl finisher, one can move while casting and recharges on half CD.

-Hammer#3 is a 1k range gap closer/creator with 3x leap finisher while evading. You can use it for damage also. ( I wont mention iLeap). 10 sec CD

-Hammer#4 is another channel block available for engis this one also with offensive properties. Applies a considerable amount of vulnerability. (lets compare it with iRiposte?)

-Hammer#5 is a long lasting combo field that stuns+damages with long lasting vuln.

All-in-All to summarize the traits and overall synergys, they will have and amazing sustain in top of what they have now, with another channeled block ( paired with utility kit is 5 sec block in 20 sec CD) on top of 10 sec CD 1k range leap+evade 6 sec CD projectile reflect and 24s of 6s ground placeable stunning field just from weapon. (Stacking might and vuln wont be a problem, so dmg will be there, another d/d ele?)
In same weapon, from 5 they have 3 combo skills (finishers and fields).
Their utilities provide movable feedback without required target on 25 sec cd.
They have traits that apply 9s weakness and vuln (5stacks) when they stun ( campare it to powerblock + illusion of vulnerability that need interrupt).
Superspeed everywhere.
Again tons of (viable to combo) fields for the tons of available finishers. Water field in a healing skill being one of the best (for 3xleaps and end in blast). Poison field can also be offensive ( reduce enemy incoming heal) and defensive ( aoe weakness)…

TL:DR How can some ppl dare to “nerf mesmer, tons of damage and blinks/stealth/invuln/blocks/evades”, and “oh no! chrono OP in top of OP mesmer class”…
If we pick the prestiged 6/6/6/6/6 build some ppl pick to mesmer, we can call engi GOD instead of OP they call to mesmer.

PS: oh, did i mention that their first minor trait does more than simply allow them to use gyros/hammer?

so does ours …

Really, with how tiny the HP pools on these guys are, ANet would be better off just having these skills apply a “temporary health” bubble to allies than what they currently do. Though at least the Bulwark Gyro does an AoE daze after dying instantly to splash damage.

Really, the Gyro itself is just as crap as the iDefender. The small health pool means that the differences between the two as far as targeting and whatever else don’t actually matter, because you get the exact same amount of benefit from them when damage is actually flying around.

The toolbelt skill is the part that annoys me a bit. We can’t even get a ground-targeted Feedback, even though there’s no good reason for Feedback not to be ground-targeted, while Engineers get a Feedback bubble that kittening moves.

Feedback to be ground targetted would greatly lower the QoL of this skill. To be able to react immediately with it without aiming for a target is what makes this skill so great.

Even though I’d like to have a self cast option when I havent targetted an enemy, or even an ally target function for this skill.

Ross Biddle.2367:

I don’t think you understand.

Mesmer’s arent going to give up their much needed decoy, blink, portal, MoD, Mantra Cleanse, Signit, etc for iDefender. It’s simply that Gyro displays how iDefender should be and raises the question of why iDefender is in the game at all when they can obviously get it right all along.

No, you don’t get it. I can tell you don’t get it because you listed 6 utilities, and you can only pick 3 in the first place. You’re padding your own mind, not thinking logically. This isn’t just about iDefender. It is about all the QQ all over the forums where people are whining that Engineers have better utilities. The mesmer is no exception. Keep in mind that in your mythical six utility mesmer, all that is still only equivalent to a single kit from the Engineer.

Not only am I not even sure bulwark is worth a slot, I’m not even sure bulwark is better than idefender. Bulwarks cooldown is up to twice as long. It’ll be cleaved just as easily, even easier if it has lower health (note: Idefender can have up to 21,209 health). You can only daze in PBAoE with the bulwark, whereas Idefender can be shattered in a multitude of ways at range, inflicting confusion, torment, vulnerability, granting boons, cleansing conditions, stripping boons, and healing. Idefender can inflict bleed on crit and can be spawned with retaliation, whereas bulwark doesn’t do additional damage by just existing. The Idefender can also increase your direct and condition damage, and reduce damage overall. You can’t summon bulwark on dodge/block, either.

So what advantages does bulwark have? #1 is that it is instant cast, which makes sense given how little bulwark actually does. Idefender is as much as an offensive skill as a defensive one, so like all phantasms it has a cast time. #2 is that it stays with you after an enemy is dead. This isn’t that useful: once your opponent is dead, you’ve won and don’t need it to hang around. #3 is that it comes with a reflect. Other classes this might be valuable, but a mesmer is bleeding reflects out of their ears, so the advantage is redundant. #4 is that it doesn’t require a target. Thankfully, the enemy you’re fighting is usually a target, and so Idefender can be used when needed. #5 is that when the drone is blown up, it dazes in an AoE without traits. This isn’t something that is lacking from the mesmer, just in a different place.

Think of how the engineer must feel, getting a trait that is arguably inferior to Idefender. That’ll never be worth a kit.

Fay.2357:

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

Maybe it is, but then, classes aren’t comparable. One class could have a set of utilities (all of them!) which is completely, one for one, superior to another’s set of utilities, and still be overall inferior.

Carighan.6758:

Fay.2357:

This is really just another way of saying ‘I submit to the fact that engineers are simply being handed utilities that are literally mesmer utilities with buffs’.

Maybe it is, but then, classes aren’t comparable. One class could have a set of utilities (all of them!) which is completely, one for one, superior to another’s set of utilities, and still be overall inferior.

While I agree that this is theoretically possible, good luck crafting such a scenario in a realistic fashion.

And this is the reason why you should and can not compare certain skills of a profession with certain skills of another profession without seeing the whole class as an unit.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Ross Biddle.2367:

I don’t think you understand.

Mesmer’s arent going to give up their much needed decoy, blink, portal, MoD, Mantra Cleanse, Signit, etc for iDefender. It’s simply that Gyro displays how iDefender should be and raises the question of why iDefender is in the game at all when they can obviously get it right all along.

No, you don’t get it. I can tell you don’t get it because you listed 6 utilities, and you can only pick 3 in the first place. You’re padding your own mind, not thinking logically. This isn’t just about iDefender. It is about all the QQ all over the forums where people are whining that Engineers have better utilities. The mesmer is no exception. Keep in mind that in your mythical six utility mesmer, all that is still only equivalent to a single kit from the Engineer.

I mean, it pains me to have to point this out but I’m pretty sure everybody else got it when I typed it out. But seeing as you didn’t, objectively a Mesmer can only equip 3 utilities, which even you know, so why you’d jump to the conclusion that I was proposing a mesmer running 6 utilities at the same time is beyond me. Considering the ridiculous impossibility of that notion, a logical mind would be forced to draw to an alternative conclusion that best made sense of the idea present within the communication. To state it plainly for you:-

“Here’s 6 utilities that’d fill my (and all serious) Mesmers three utility slots (but not at the same time -_-u) over and above iDefender (as it currently stands), because they far outclass it. Furthermore, there are still more utilities than those 6 that’d be taken before iDefender.”

Good try with a response though. Keep at it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Ross Biddle.2367:

I don’t think you understand.

Mesmer’s arent going to give up their much needed decoy, blink, portal, MoD, Mantra Cleanse, Signit, etc for iDefender. It’s simply that Gyro displays how iDefender should be and raises the question of why iDefender is in the game at all when they can obviously get it right all along.

No, you don’t get it. I can tell you don’t get it because you listed 6 utilities, and you can only pick 3 in the first place. You’re padding your own mind, not thinking logically. This isn’t just about iDefender. It is about all the QQ all over the forums where people are whining that Engineers have better utilities. The mesmer is no exception. Keep in mind that in your mythical six utility mesmer, all that is still only equivalent to a single kit from the Engineer.

Not only am I not even sure bulwark is worth a slot, I’m not even sure bulwark is better than idefender. Bulwarks cooldown is up to twice as long. It’ll be cleaved just as easily, even easier if it has lower health (note: Idefender can have up to 21,209 health). You can only daze in PBAoE with the bulwark, whereas Idefender can be shattered in a multitude of ways at range, inflicting confusion, torment, vulnerability, granting boons, cleansing conditions, stripping boons, and healing. Idefender can inflict bleed on crit and can be spawned with retaliation, whereas bulwark doesn’t do additional damage by just existing. The Idefender can also increase your direct and condition damage, and reduce damage overall. You can’t summon bulwark on dodge/block, either.

So what advantages does bulwark have? #1 is that it is instant cast, which makes sense given how little bulwark actually does. Idefender is as much as an offensive skill as a defensive one, so like all phantasms it has a cast time. #2 is that it stays with you after an enemy is dead. This isn’t that useful: once your opponent is dead, you’ve won and don’t need it to hang around. #3 is that it comes with a reflect. Other classes this might be valuable, but a mesmer is bleeding reflects out of their ears, so the advantage is redundant. #4 is that it doesn’t require a target. Thankfully, the enemy you’re fighting is usually a target, and so Idefender can be used when needed. #5 is that when the drone is blown up, it dazes in an AoE without traits. This isn’t something that is lacking from the mesmer, just in a different place.

Think of how the engineer must feel, getting a trait that is arguably inferior to Idefender. That’ll never be worth a kit.

You just blasted him for mythical 6 utilities and went on to mention the mythical shatter traits spread across several lines that don’t come with the base skill itself. In that case we can add the gyro centric scrapper traits into consideration as well.

I mean, please. Wow, a single bleed proc from sharpened images on a low attack rate iDefender just sound fantastic, and ending his function to apply some shatter effect that could be applied by any other illusion we can fart out is clearly a credit to the phantasm itself.

And when told the appeal of the gyros come mainly from the toolbelt skills associated with them? “Oh, that reflect, it’s nothing the mesmer has a 32 sec cd reflect that our utility mimics, but our utility is also an idefender at the same time”.

Levetty.1279:

Because the Mesmer motto is twice the work for half the results.

From a player enjoying engineer and mesmer class… engineer requires clearly more effort & coordination, sry.

Generally I would not worry about the gyros at all. From the POI vid & the turret balance (aka obliteration) I presume to expect they whole set of gyros will die from one Mirror Blade + Mind Stab.

Also running with many kits offers so much more flexibility and, if just hopping from kit n’s strongest damage ability to kit n+1’s, superior punch.

So don’t expect to be confronted with those gyros alot. I don’t think I will use them, beyond trying, on my main char. And when you do, oh joy, you met an opponent who forsake both flexibility & punch for cute steam-punk gizmos. ^^

Plok.5873:

Levetty.1279:

Because the Mesmer motto is twice the work for half the results.

From a player enjoying engineer and mesmer class… engineer requires clearly more effort & coordination, sry.

You’re neglecting the other part: half the results. One the engineer has put in the work, they get a nice reward (say, highest sustained dps in the game). Once mesmer has put in the work, they get….nothing?

Fay.2357:

Plok.5873:

Levetty.1279:

Because the Mesmer motto is twice the work for half the results.

From a player enjoying engineer and mesmer class… engineer requires clearly more effort & coordination, sry.

You’re neglecting the other part: half the results. One the engineer has put in the work, they get a nice reward (say, highest sustained dps in the game). Once mesmer has put in the work, they get….nothing?

Hey man, 1 veil = 60 man stealth blob. Mesmer clearly high reward for next to no effort.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Hey man, 1 veil = 60 man stealth blob. Mesmer clearly high reward for next to no effort.

Come to think of it, if veiling players would tag me for their tagging, as in, give me loot bags, all I’d need is the ability to equip Mimic in the third utility slot, in the elite slot and the healing slot, and I’d be “ok” in WvW.

Got a few TV series to catch up on, in any case. :P

Plok.5873:

Levetty.1279:

Because the Mesmer motto is twice the work for half the results.

From a player enjoying engineer and mesmer class… engineer requires clearly more effort & coordination, sry.

Generally I would not worry about the gyros at all. From the POI vid & the turret balance (aka obliteration) I presume to expect they whole set of gyros will die from one Mirror Blade + Mind Stab.

Also running with many kits offers so much more flexibility and, if just hopping from kit n’s strongest damage ability to kit n+1’s, superior punch.

So don’t expect to be confronted with those gyros alot. I don’t think I will use them, beyond trying, on my main char. And when you do, oh joy, you met an opponent who forsake both flexibility & punch for cute steam-punk gizmos. ^^

I do agree with what you’ve said in some parts here as I do play my engineer over mesmer in PvE (pretty much all classes over Mesmer as its so awkward and frustrating to play) but as others said you missed the other part.

You don’t get as high a reward. Seen really high numbers on jump shot, blunderbuss, acid bomb, freeze grenade, shrapnel, grenade barrage, orbital strike and the auto in grenade kit ain’t to be sneezed at either being a consistent 3.6k and big vuln stacker. That’s without mentioning the massive amount of utility you can get from your 3rd utility slot if you drop flamethrower or the utility that elixir gun brings and how amazing healing turret is.

Mesmer on the other hand, outside of reflects is what? I guess good for portals and that’s it. On trash it can’t summon phantasms as the mob dies before or just after summoning and you didn’t tag it so no loot. Your auto is a lot lower than other classes and so are your other attacks. 10s cool down on your damage shatter so not like you can use it on all trash which leaves you with mantra of pain spamming with sword auto for meaningful damage.

On bosses phantasms are cleaved out and even killed on spawning and that’s without being targeted either completely tanking damage. It can provide support but why bother when a guardian does this and more damage all in zerk without giving up anything and with little to no effort?

There is just no point playing a Mesmer in PvE outside of a record run as all other classes are better and I include ranger and necro in that.

Ross Biddle.2367:

I mean, it pains me to have to point this out but I’m pretty sure everybody else got it when I typed it out. But seeing as you didn’t, objectively a Mesmer can only equip 3 utilities, which even you know, so why you’d jump to the conclusion that I was proposing a mesmer running 6 utilities at the same time is beyond me. Considering the ridiculous impossibility of that notion, a logical mind would be forced to draw to an alternative conclusion that best made sense of the idea present within the communication. To state it plainly for you:-

“Here’s 6 utilities that’d fill my (and all serious) Mesmers three utility slots (but not at the same time -_-u) over and above iDefender (as it currently stands), because they far outclass it. Furthermore, there are still more utilities than those 6 that’d be taken before iDefender.”

Good try with a response though. Keep at it.

The opportunity cost of any utility is the best thing you have to give up to use it. Thus, in any realistic scenario, you’ll be exchanging any one of three utilities for any particular build. Thus, when you started listing a random assortment of contextless utilities you consider “better” than idefender, you’re just mentally hoarding as many names as possible to make your case look all big and secure in your own head. Two people can play that game. I can list every contextless random utility that is worse than idefender or better than bulwark. But I didn’t. I only picked the 3 kit build specifically to avoid unnecessary fluff to make a more realistic point.

Its not that I don’t “get it”. You’re just wrong to think that way. You’re position is illogical from the outset, and it is more prudent to point it out than humor it.

Zenith.7301:

Stuff

Pay attention now. You’re nitpicking to distract away from the point, which is class synergy and the relative + absolute inferiority of bulwark gyro, toolbelt skill and all.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Ross Biddle.2367:

I mean, it pains me to have to point this out but I’m pretty sure everybody else got it when I typed it out. But seeing as you didn’t, objectively a Mesmer can only equip 3 utilities, which even you know, so why you’d jump to the conclusion that I was proposing a mesmer running 6 utilities at the same time is beyond me. Considering the ridiculous impossibility of that notion, a logical mind would be forced to draw to an alternative conclusion that best made sense of the idea present within the communication. To state it plainly for you:-

“Here’s 6 utilities that’d fill my (and all serious) Mesmers three utility slots (but not at the same time -_-u) over and above iDefender (as it currently stands), because they far outclass it. Furthermore, there are still more utilities than those 6 that’d be taken before iDefender.”

Good try with a response though. Keep at it.

The opportunity cost of any utility is the best thing you have to give up to use it. Thus, in any realistic scenario, you’ll be exchanging any one of three utilities for any particular build. Thus, when you started listing a random assortment of contextless utilities you consider “better” than idefender, you’re just mentally hoarding as many names as possible to make your case look all big and secure in your own head. Two people can play that game. I can list every contextless random utility that is worse than idefender or better than bulwark. But I didn’t. I only picked the 3 kit build specifically to avoid unnecessary fluff to make a more realistic point.

Its not that I don’t “get it”. You’re just wrong to think that way. You’re position is illogical from the outset, and it is more prudent to point it out than humor it.

Zenith.7301:

Stuff

Pay attention now. You’re nitpicking to distract away from the point, which is class synergy and the relative + absolute inferiority of bulwark gyro, toolbelt skill and all.

Err, no. You’re wrong.

Putting the Bulwark Gyro and iDefender into their respective class contexts does NOT make iDefender look any better, and you’re a kitten fool if you think it does.

Engineer context: Extremely good DPS and incredibly strong team support, in the same build.

Mesmer context: High PvP burst but the worst PvE DPS in the game, and even hitting those numbers is reliant on having three damage Phantasms out permanently, which is hard to do given the nature of PvE encounter design. Our group support is not bad, but Guardians do the same stuff better while bringing more DPS.

In the Engineer context, Bulwark Gyro is a little disappointing compared to other utilities, but it doesn’t tank the Engineer’s DPS if they use it. In the Mesmer context, the iDefender is not only kind of bad compared to other utilities, it also completely tanks our DPS if we try to use it.

So spare me the “you’ve got to look at things in context, you can’t just compare skill to skill” bullkitten on this one.

I’m pretty sure he’s full of it by now.

“relative+absolute inferiority”. He gets told a single utility functions like iDefender and Feedback merged together and he goes off on how idefender can benefit from trivial add on’s like a single bleed on crit or how it applies a few crappy conditions when shattered.