Guild Wars 2

. . . damage is so kitten high! The corresponding across-the-board damage increases pretty much require you to go back to zerker or marauder.

I’ve been trying to make a shoutbow-like bunker-ish mesmer work, mostly through dueling and inspiration. The blind and heal on shatter traits combined with glamours and reasonable condi removal really give us some sustain, and I like going Chaos as well for CI and some solid protection and might stacking (and staff trait, before nerf). With strength runes you can even make celestial work as you stack might via sigils and interupts.

But anyway, this is all a bit moot, because with damage now so high, bunkering is almost impossible on any class. Sure, you can survive 1v1s, but you can do that on Zerk and provide more utility to team. And this is all a shame, because we have some really fun sustain skills now, more sources of healing, boons, and blind, and more useful glamours to help control point.

tl/dr: I love our new sustain skills, but the massive damage creep totally undermines then forces you to run burst.

Yeah, I’d go ahead and say that ‘Bunker X’, regardless of class, is not really viable atm, because it’s not truly possible to bunker down against the damage that now appears in PvP.

The problem is that trying to hold a point in a glass v glass scenario is high risk which can lead to complications. Where’as active defences + a sustain build has better odds, which still lends itself to standard burst teammate rotations providing support to win the fights.

So really nothing’s changed.

I prefer the move away from the one man boring bunk a point however. There’s a better balance to be had somewhere in here.

I’ve been bunkering plenty lately. Had a 5 min 1v4 yesterday. It’s doable. I run a condition shatter build with scepter/torch and staff.

PainbowBrite.3785:

I’ve been bunkering plenty lately. Had a 5 min 1v4 yesterday. It’s doable. I run a condition shatter build with scepter/torch and staff.

Let me take a couple guesses.

You’re running PU, this was in WvW, and the 4 you fought didn’t contain more than 2 total thieves and mesmers.

Bunkers aren’t really a thing in WvW. You’ve got a tanky frontline set, but that’s not quite the same thing as a bunker. Bunker is a PvP term for someone protecting a point.

Fay.2357:

Bunker is a PvP term for someone protecting a point.

Which — because a non-PvPer probably wouldn’t know this — a PU Mesmer can’t really do because being in stealth disables your ability to block point captures.

Yeah, condi bunker doesn’t really work in PvP because (a) no dire amulet, (b) no food buffs, and © invis makes you lose points. Then again, no bunker really works right no, so whatever.

@RossBiddle: The existence of bunkers actually require more rotation, in my opinion, as they require you to rotate to get your mismatches, and put value on those with sustain to survive the mismatches until help arrives. Now, the massive dps spikes seem to counter-intuitively promote zerging. We’ll just have to see where things settle.

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

You have no stunbreak in that base build. You could certainly take the mantra, but in the build you’ve posted, You would get 100-0 by the first shatter burst mesmer that showed up. Approach in stealth, MoD stun into full burst and you die instantly.

Edit: Even with the mantra, it can be tough to stunbreak in time. I’ve certainly been instagibbed by people a good number of times already, though I’ve been trying to keep a sharp eye on every mesmer in a match now.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

You have no stunbreak in that base build. You could certainly take the mantra, but in the build you’ve posted, You would get 100-0 by the first shatter burst mesmer that showed up. Approach in stealth, MoD stun into full burst and you die instantly.

Edit: Even with the mantra, it can be tough to stunbreak in time. I’ve certainly been instagibbed by people a good number of times already, though I’ve been trying to keep a sharp eye on every mesmer in a match now.

distortion. bountiful disillusionment. need I say more?

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

You have no stunbreak in that base build. You could certainly take the mantra, but in the build you’ve posted, You would get 100-0 by the first shatter burst mesmer that showed up. Approach in stealth, MoD stun into full burst and you die instantly.

Edit: Even with the mantra, it can be tough to stunbreak in time. I’ve certainly been instagibbed by people a good number of times already, though I’ve been trying to keep a sharp eye on every mesmer in a match now.

distortion. bountiful disillusionment. need I say more?

BD doesn’t break stuns. It can keep you from getting stunned, but as long as the mesmer doesn’t MoD into your 1 stack of stability, they’ll stun you all the same.

Distortion can stop that burst, for sure. Unfortunately, a power mesmer has the option to restealth and burst roughly (realistically) once every 7-10 seconds or so, and distortion is only available once every 50. On top of that, the whole burst executes in <1 second, if they’re good. It’s possible to distortion to avoid that, but it’s not easy.

I have been experimenting with an off bunker/support build along these lines: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RZ-3l;0ZUk4197BWV71;9;4TVW;0038147256;4hwW6U;1hoHAhoHA2B . However, with the bizarre MtD nerf I do not think that its really viable for serious play. I am going to keep experimenting and see if once Mesmer reaches its baseline balance state I can come up with something decent.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

You have no stunbreak in that base build. You could certainly take the mantra, but in the build you’ve posted, You would get 100-0 by the first shatter burst mesmer that showed up. Approach in stealth, MoD stun into full burst and you die instantly.

Edit: Even with the mantra, it can be tough to stunbreak in time. I’ve certainly been instagibbed by people a good number of times already, though I’ve been trying to keep a sharp eye on every mesmer in a match now.

distortion. bountiful disillusionment. need I say more?

BD doesn’t break stuns. It can keep you from getting stunned, but as long as the mesmer doesn’t MoD into your 1 stack of stability, they’ll stun you all the same.

Distortion can stop that burst, for sure. Unfortunately, a power mesmer has the option to restealth and burst roughly (realistically) once every 7-10 seconds or so, and distortion is only available once every 50. On top of that, the whole burst executes in <1 second, if they’re good. It’s possible to distortion to avoid that, but it’s not easy.

Also “good” is relative. A 1 second burst from a good mes is one approach, but there’s also less predictable assaults that can be made, all with a slew of CC coming your way. Realistically that 1s burst combo with the chance of a CS stun proc is the least of your worries from a “good” mesmer. And that’s before we even get into D/P thieves.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

You have no stunbreak in that base build. You could certainly take the mantra, but in the build you’ve posted, You would get 100-0 by the first shatter burst mesmer that showed up. Approach in stealth, MoD stun into full burst and you die instantly.

Edit: Even with the mantra, it can be tough to stunbreak in time. I’ve certainly been instagibbed by people a good number of times already, though I’ve been trying to keep a sharp eye on every mesmer in a match now.

distortion. bountiful disillusionment. need I say more?

BD doesn’t break stuns. It can keep you from getting stunned, but as long as the mesmer doesn’t MoD into your 1 stack of stability, they’ll stun you all the same.

Distortion can stop that burst, for sure. Unfortunately, a power mesmer has the option to restealth and burst roughly (realistically) once every 7-10 seconds or so, and distortion is only available once every 50. On top of that, the whole burst executes in <1 second, if they’re good. It’s possible to distortion to avoid that, but it’s not easy.

Also “good” is relative. A 1 second burst from a good mes is one approach, but there’s also less predictable assaults that can be made, all with a slew of CC coming your way. Realistically that 1s burst combo with the chance of a CS stun proc is the least of your worries from a “good” mesmer. And that’s before we even get into D/P thieves.

Again this is why mantra of concentration is a variation. But it is by no means a necessity. One can dodge while dazzed, as well as stunbreak with swap and move away with phase retreat. I have yet to be 100-0 by any class anyway. So if they don’t do enough damage to finish, responding is much easier.

Check out the build in my signature. I don’t have any trouble taking damage from zerkers/maurauders. This could partially be because of the high amount of invuln and reflects.

That being said, everyone is dishing out a good amount of damage.

MailMail.6534:

Check out the build in my signature. I don’t have any trouble taking damage from zerkers/maurauders. This could partially be because of the high amount of invuln and reflects.

That being said, everyone is dishing out a good amount of damage.

Really, not dying is a function of active defense right now, not passively being able to soak damage. In a tanky rabid condition build, if I eat a full burst from a power mesmer…I die. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Fay.2357:

MailMail.6534:

Check out the build in my signature. I don’t have any trouble taking damage from zerkers/maurauders. This could partially be because of the high amount of invuln and reflects.

That being said, everyone is dishing out a good amount of damage.

Really, not dying is a function of active defense right now, not passively being able to soak damage. In a tanky rabid condition build, if I eat a full burst from a power mesmer…I die. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Pretty much offense is the best defense :D No more just lazying around. Hurah!

It also makes team mates WAY more important. A counter strategy to people bursting friendlies down quickly? Getting them back up :D

Fay.2357:

MailMail.6534:

Check out the build in my signature. I don’t have any trouble taking damage from zerkers/maurauders. This could partially be because of the high amount of invuln and reflects.

That being said, everyone is dishing out a good amount of damage.

Really, not dying is a function of active defense right now, not passively being able to soak damage. In a tanky rabid condition build, if I eat a full burst from a power mesmer…I die. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Very true. That being said, if you’re trying to tank, you’re going to need an amulet that’s better fit for it than Rabid. <16 health is not efficient for tanking without having something like healing or vitality. This is of course strictly speaking for Mesmers.

Wow, are we actually having a discussion about tank Mesmers?! I never thought the day would come!!

I’m working based on Chaos Maestro build (boonshare)
Here’s what I came up with
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R3lZ;1ZUF61y6ZW-71;9;4VWU;0147248147;41tG6U;1OZG5OZG59I
Keep in mind that sigil of bursting is, in fact, Sigil of Life
I sometimes swap out the Dolyak Rune for Dwayna or Mercy (with Medic’s feedback trait)
And even MoR for SoEF for even more passive heal (lose 2 condi cleanse)

Overall it’s extremely tanky, I share a lot of boons, still have stunbreaks, peels and defense.
Don’t expect any sort of Damage beside DoT, you’re not a dueler or a fighter, you’re a boon bot with excessive defense and some condis as a bonus

Agree that the <16k health is one of the key issues in this discussion. I feel that Anet really messed up the stats thing, which is especially an issue in sPvP. The Amulet choices are simply outdated now, and Marauder is almost a clear choice anymore regardless of build.

I think what they did with the Marauder Amulet is correct, in that it no longer places equal value on all stats as clearly some scale much better than others. Now they just need to rebalance all of them with the same/similar approach.

After taking stats from the trait lines, we have very poor flexibility with stats. This shows the most with Vitality, because there is a sweet-spot you kinda almost “have to have” to survive 1 shot deaths. With Toughness scaling poorly, they need to put at least a little Vit on several Toughness related Amulets as part of being tough requires having enough HPs to make use of that toughness. (I can understand why Zerker was nerfed in this regard, you really shouldn’t get more HPs as a pure GC.)

I was expecting that they would provide some new mechanics of customizing your stats just a little, and was pretty surprised how little thought or work they seemed to have put into the rather significant nerf of our stats. The flat percentage increases were clearly not going to provide enough.

Same goes for all the percent bonuses. I thought they’d at least off load some of this stuff onto Amulets, or better yet boost the existing stats & bonuses on armor runes as well.

All in all though, I disagree that bunkering in general doesn’t exist. I’ve run into a few Engies, Eles, and Guardians who had no problems holding a point for a significant amount of time in a 2v1. Any more attackers, and being able to hold a point indefinitely in just a 2v1 even, is IMO clearly OPd.

All 3 of these professions in a bunkerish build never took more than 50% damage from my CS=>Shatter Burst combo, often far less, and easily healed it up almost instantly. Against me alone they could hold the point indefinitely without any issues what so ever, but in 2v1 they had to be on their toes but could often still hold the point for 30-60 seconds, which is more then enough time for help to arrive and turn the tide. That’s IMO very balanced, because any more is just too much of a defensive advantage for a game centering around keeping & holding points.

And even if two GC single-target damage focused professions competently working in a team to attack one bunker, can not bring him down relatively fast, then quite frankly that too is OPd.

So I like this balance more, actually, as some bunkers were too strong before.

Mesmers can be very tanky now, but yeah it’s not really Bunker. You can kinda pull it off, certainly against some professions more than others, but it’s still not a Bunker in the purest sense of the word.

Well, I hate to keep mentioning this, but I’ve been doing extremely well on my support tank with a Cleric’s Amulet. You don’t need crit chance when you have high defense, healing, and constant stream of boons.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

I haven’t tried a bunker build but there appear to be some holes in your build from what I can tell just from general pvping experience.

I don’t think Mantras are good for holding a point because they are hard to recharge without some cover for it. A class with good cc (lockdown mesmer/theif) will be able to lock you out pretty easily every time you attempt a charge. Having 3 mantras means alot of charging and I don’t see it working for hold pointing. One person can completely shut you down, let alone 3.

I tried using Celestial or Soldier Amulet and they seem to work very well against 1 vs 3. The only thing is that I cannot bust or do enough damage to take down people.

I am more of a point holder than a damage dealer. And by having multiple people on me helps my team take free point.

this is my variant of bunker build
it cant take down any enemy but can hold while support very nice my team
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFFZ;1ZUk3127RWV71;9;4TUV;0138158146;4hwGAU;1F-03F-036W

blind when shatter
great condi removal for party and self with shatter mantra and null
great healing with mantra and shatter
good self stability to res and stomp
block proc defender to negate some dmg for 1-3 sec
null remove boons and time warp slow and give aoe quickness

Leodon.1564:

I don’t think Mantras are good for holding a point because they are hard to recharge without some cover for it. A class with good cc (lockdown mesmer/theif) will be able to lock you out pretty easily every time you attempt a charge. Having 3 mantras means alot of charging and I don’t see it working for hold pointing. One person can completely shut you down, let alone 3.

Well, I believe the point is that you can hold enemies off for a while before you even need to charge your mantras in the first place, provided that you’re using them intelligently.

tobascodagama.2961:

Leodon.1564:

I don’t think Mantras are good for holding a point because they are hard to recharge without some cover for it. A class with good cc (lockdown mesmer/theif) will be able to lock you out pretty easily every time you attempt a charge. Having 3 mantras means alot of charging and I don’t see it working for hold pointing. One person can completely shut you down, let alone 3.

Well, I believe the point is that you can hold enemies off for a while before you even need to charge your mantras in the first place, provided that you’re using them intelligently.

A good mesmer can cover the charges of his own mantas, including using mantras nto recharge mantras :p

Leodon.1564:

Daniel Handler.4816:

I guess I can finally post my bunker build.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-RFcZ;1ZUF4127RWV71;9;4TUV;0046158148;4Ukl6R;1rRnCrRnC3i

Completely capable of bunkering 1v3 on a point.

Depending on the situation
temporal enchanter>illusionary inspiration
bountiful disillusionment>chaotic interruption
null field>mantra of concentration>signet of inspiration

I haven’t tried a bunker build but there appear to be some holes in your build from what I can tell just from general pvping experience.

I don’t think Mantras are good for holding a point because they are hard to recharge without some cover for it. A class with good cc (lockdown mesmer/theif) will be able to lock you out pretty easily every time you attempt a charge. Having 3 mantras means alot of charging and I don’t see it working for hold pointing. One person can completely shut you down, let alone 3.

quite simple. bountiful disillusionment provides stability. Vs class with lots of interrupts you switch the null field for mantra of concentration.

Also @fay, distortion, aegis, blurr, blind, are all active defenses.